r/neoliberal NATO Nov 17 '24

Pollster Ann Selzer ending election polling, moving 'to other ventures and opportunities' News (US)

https://eu.desmoinesregister.com/story/opinion/columnists/2024/11/17/ann-selzer-conducts-iowa-poll-ending-election-polling-moving-to-other-opportunities/76334909007/
1.1k Upvotes

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u/No1PaulKeatingfan Paul Keating Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24

That destroys my theory that she did this as a morale boost for the Dems huh

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u/chillinwithmoes Nov 17 '24

This sub was so confident about that damn poll. “Either this election will be a landslide or the best pollster alive is wrong” lol

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u/BroBeansBMS Nov 17 '24

It’s really cringe for me to look back on. I really thought that things were going to go our way.

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u/Leonflames Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24

That's what happens when a whole subreddit disregards any negative polls as "doomerism" and uses one poll like this to predict the electoral outcome.

The only reason why this sub clinged onto this poll was due to the extremely favorable electoral prospects it was predicting for Kamala's campaign.

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u/Trim345 Effective Altruist Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24

It's complicated. In 2020, Selzer's poll was much more negative for Biden than the other polls, which turned out to be accurate, which gave credence to her poll this time being right too. Also, Trump did better than all the other Iowa pollsters showed too: none of them gave him more than +9, but his actual result is +14.

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u/Tartaruchus YIMBY Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24

I don’t really see how it is complicated. The fact is that Selzer is an individual pollster, like any other, and even the best pollster is statistically certain to occasionally produce outlier polls in both directions.

No matter how good Selzer’s polling history has been, this was clearly an outlier. The chances of it being right while every other poll conducted in the state, including by Selzer itself, was wrong, was exceedingly slim.

The fact that people here just outright refused to acknowledge this was entirely due to a willingness to just ignore reality in favor of a narrative that felt good.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '24

It’s interesting how you twisted his comment so you could still be right. It wasn’t just Ann selzer it was numerous other pollsters of Iowa showing 2020 environment. None of them had him plus 14 even within the margin of error. Polling is broken and bad and more and more people should just accept it

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u/Trim345 Effective Altruist Nov 17 '24

I don't think many people were saying that Selzer's poll meant Harris would actually win Iowa, just that it looked more favorable in the blue wall states if Trump was underperforming in Iowa. But there were specific reasons why people thought she might have been closer to correct:

  1. She did do specifically well in previous elections in Iowa in 2016 and 2020, despite others being wrong.
  2. Selzer almost exclusively polls Iowa only, which meant she might have more knowledge of Iowa-specific trends, as well as more resources to dedicate to polling in it.
  3. Nate Silver specifically noted about the poll that he "wouldn't want to play poker against Ann Selzer," implying that he thought there was a decent chance of Selzer being right too, so it's not just random people on Reddit.
  4. There was statistically herding, and it seems plausible that other pollsters may have been assuming the same result as the previous election's +8 Trump. Selzer was explicit that she published this survey despite its difference from the others.

Ironically, both Selzer and the other pollsters were wrong; it's possible the other pollsters herded toward the center too much, because they underpredicted Trump by +6. This implies that the problem is non-sampling systematic error across all polls, not sampling error, so calling it an outlier poll isn't entirely accurate.

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u/WOKE_AI_GOD NATO Nov 17 '24

I didn't think we'd win Iowa but I thought it would be a strong signal for elsewhere. Turns out it was just a hell of an outlier.

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u/freekayZekey Jason Furman Nov 17 '24

yup spent a lot of time thinking “but this is a major outlier…”

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u/TownSquareMeditator Nov 17 '24

It’s not complicated at all. The sub was overeager to convince itself that her poll was a bellwether because it was a bellwether it wanted. Catching a trend four years ago that others missed doesn’t make one a guru; she just picked up on a trend that others didn’t. Once. So I agree, it’s only complicated if you’re trying to forgive a bias.

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u/PlayDiscord17 YIMBY Nov 17 '24

Except it wasn’t just once. Both in 2016 and 2020 her results were viewed by many to be outliers only to be proven right come Election Day. Her claim to fame comes from predicting Obama’s 2008 primary win almost to the exact margin IIRC. There’s a reason why Nate Silver while very skeptical about the poll still said he wouldn’t play a game of poker with Selzer. Her luck just finally ran out this time just like she predicted it would someday due to her unique methodology of only weighing by demographics.

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u/ArcFault NATO Nov 17 '24

You left out the somewhat well founded accusations of herding amongst other pollsters. Still should have been considered an outlier.

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u/WooStripes Nov 17 '24

I disagree with your gloss. First, I don't think people's views of the race changed that much. My own reaction to the poll was pretty joyous, but only insofar as it changed my view from "the polling average is a toss-up but my gut says Trump, so I'm dooming" to "the polling average is a toss-up but my gut say Kamala, so I'm blooming." That's enough to flip the mood of the sub without any of us putting disproportionate faith in the poll.

Second, the poll genuinely was a good signal for Democrats—not merely a blip that we clung to after the fact. It caused significant movement on Polymarket and PredictIt, with the latter flipping to Harris. I was waiting for this poll to drop for about a day before it dropped, and I would have doomed if it showed a bad result. In other words, I was not looking for one good poll to bloom about; I was looking for whatever this poll said.

Third, this arguably made sense to do because polls were herding, and Selzer had a remarkable track record and stuck her neck out for this poll. There's a reason this poll moved betting markets.

On the DT I posted a comment pointing out all the ways this could go wrong for Democrats: (1) Even if the poll was within the margin of error, which would drop it it to +3 Trump; (2) Iowa is pretty white and it looks like minorities are shifting to Trump more than whites; (3) abortion bans are a more salient issue in Iowa then elsewhere. Still, even with all this, it was good news for Democrats.

By the way, Selzer's poll had Harris at 47%, and she ended up getting 43%—outside the margin of error, but not by much. We now know that those who remained undecided until the final week or two overwhelmingly broke for Trump. Overall, I think it was reasonable to believe that Selzer was the best pollster in the industry, understand that the poll was an outlier and statistical fluke, and still bloom on the margins.

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u/SLCer Nov 17 '24

That's how I felt. Prior to the poll, it did seem like momentum was maybe in Trump's favor (well prior to the final week leading up to the poll). Then the final week + that poll indicated maybe the race was very gradually breaking for Harris and that she was looking at pulling out a tight win.

Alas...

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u/FearlessPark4588 Gay Pride Nov 17 '24

Her margin of error for Trump would be much larger.

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u/FunHoliday7437 Karl Popper Nov 17 '24

It's like thinking that the hedge fund that overperformed the last 8 quarters will overporm this quarter. Nah, most hedge funds that overperform just got lucky.

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u/Xeynon Nov 17 '24

Not really. There's an element of random error to polling but it's more scientific than hedge fund management. Selzer had a good track record. She just whiffed badly this time.

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u/Ryan_on_Earth Harriet Tubman Nov 17 '24

There's nothing cringe about being optimistic this country would reject a rapist felon who doesn't know how to read and led an insurrection, among plenty other things. We were all just trying not to be cynical.

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u/BroBeansBMS Nov 17 '24

I agree. I still do feel so naive after everything we’ve seen in the past week. I’m bummed, but will still stay determined to do what I can moving forward.

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u/Ryan_on_Earth Harriet Tubman Nov 17 '24

🍻

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u/GifHunter2 Trans Pride Nov 17 '24

I remember saying the Iowa poll is a distraction, and that there remains work done. People were going crazy about it. I started buying into the hype that week too

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u/Lazeraction Nov 18 '24

yeah that's just because you were too busy being rational logical looking at thought facts and coming up with a conclusion based on a reasonable approach. you weren't thinking "hey America's got to elect a sexual predator 34 count felon Russian asset as leader"

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u/HollywooAccounting NATO Nov 17 '24

Well that sentiment wasn't incorrect. Either A will happen or B will happen. B happened.

In a few years we'll trot out someone else with a great track record who tells us what we want to hear, learning absolutely nothing.

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u/KinataKnight Austan Goolsbee Nov 17 '24

Option C: she was never that good and her previous successes were flukes. She polls one state, how implausible is it for her to just get lucky for a few years?

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u/tarspaceheel Nov 17 '24

Pretty implausible I’d say. It’s not just that she was regularly right, but she was regularly right when everyone else was wrong. Some of the highest rated polls out there have gotten to that point by echoing conventional wisdom and being slightly better than the crowd. Selzer was unafraid to say the conventional wisdom was wrong and was right basically every time. This wasn’t winning a coin flip eight times in a row — it was hitting on 20 and getting an ace eight times in a row. (And remember she wasn’t just known for her general election polls, she was also the only reliable pollster of the notoriously hard to poll Iowa caucuses)

She was wrong this year, and that sucks. But to pretend she never had the juice is absurd. If she stuck around a while longer, I’d still bet on her over the crowd.

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u/No_Aesthetic YIMBY Nov 17 '24

I'd really like to hope people have learned their lesson but these hopes usually turn out to be the forelorn type. On my own mid-sized YouTube channel I was predicting a Trump win for a while and did an election livestream which I started by saying I expected a Trump win of some kind, perhaps even a big one. I was keeping track of other YouTubers and streamers, like Destiny and Kyle Kulinski, and was absolutely perplexed they thought Kamala was not only going to win but most likely win big.

It was pretty apparent Kamala was on track to lose Georgia and North Carolina and Destiny was (admittedly drunkenly) calling for a sweep. That was about the time I was telling my viewers Pennsylvania was looking worse and worse.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 29 '24

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '24

Wow you predicted one election. Do you want a trophy?

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u/No_Aesthetic YIMBY Nov 17 '24

Absolutely. Can I have two?

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u/GhazelleBerner United Nations Nov 17 '24

I mean, it’s true though.

And she even said if she was wrong, she’d quit. Which she’s following through on. I respect that.

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u/Xeynon Nov 17 '24

I don't see how that's overconfidence. It was the latter. Everyone acknowledged that it was a possibility.

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u/Godkun007 NAFTA Nov 17 '24

This sub conveniently forgot that outliers exist.

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u/EpeeHS Nov 17 '24

I remember being skeptical that one poll in Iowa meant that the dems were going to win in a landslide despite every other piece of evidence, and then I was convinced by some actually decent arguments and a crap ton of hopium.

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u/wheretogo_whattodo Bill Gates Nov 17 '24

It was actually “either every other real pollster in America is wrong or this single one is right”

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u/Okbuddyliberals Nov 17 '24

I got so many people on here acting like I was a fucking moron for confidently asserting that the poll was total bullshit and there was no real chance it would even be close, and that the poll was so cooked that it wasn't even a positive portent for Harris at all vs just showing that Selzer was useless now

So, uh, told y'all so!

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u/Khiva Nov 17 '24

I'm sure you were basing that on a very serious statistical analysis with rigorous math to back it up.

Or vibes. Couldn't have just been vibes.

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u/eetsumkaus Nov 17 '24

In what way was it cooked though?

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u/MaNewt Nov 17 '24

It gave a lot of us a good night sleep past the point we could do anything 🤷‍♂️. 

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u/PersonalDebater Nov 17 '24

I suspect a part of what happened is that it just so happened to catch the very "perfect" frame of time where people were unenthusiastic to say they were voting Trump after the MSG rally with the Latino jokes, just before it rebounded. And the release of the poll may also have alarmed other soft-Trumpers into running to the ballot boxes.

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u/WesternDrop3321 Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24

"Over a year ago I advised the Register I would not renew when my 2024 contract expired with the latest election poll as I transition to other ventures and opportunities.   

Would I have liked to make this announcement after a final poll aligned with Election Day results? Of course. It’s ironic that it’s just the opposite. I am proud of the work I’ve done for the Register, for the Detroit Free Press, for the Indianapolis Star, for Bloomberg News and for other public and private organizations interested in elections. They were great clients and were happy with my work."

I get dunking on her for her 17 point error, but to be fair to her, that's not why she's ending polling.

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u/DrunkenBriefcases Jerome Powell Nov 17 '24

Yup. We've known this was her last cycle for some months now.

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u/justbuildmorehousing Norman Borlaug Nov 17 '24

Ill forever be shocked that ‘the best pollster in America’ missed her final poll by 17 points when she had been so accurate every other year. Man I thought that (and some other indicators) meant we were finally getting a general polling error in our favor

Now we have a pedo getting nominated for AG

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u/Goldenboy451 NATO Nov 17 '24

Yeah I don't think it was at all unwarranted to think that she was on to something with her poll that other outlets had missed given her track record. Being off by 17 points is an astonishing break in form.

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u/KillerZaWarudo Nov 17 '24

Not to mention, after that polls Trump team even show his own internal that he was up by 5. Which was still be Selzer biggest miss and a Harris win. I feel like even Trump own team didn't expect them to win so comfortably

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u/rykahn Nov 17 '24

Yup, he definitely didn't. He was ranting about fictitious voter fraud in PA and trying to suppress the vote with threats of law enforcement well into the afternoon - a sure sign he didn't like what he was seeing at that point.

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u/DrunkenBriefcases Jerome Powell Nov 17 '24

Yup. The guy was spamming North Carolina in the final days, but everyone wants to pretend the outcome was obvious. The trump campaign obviously didn't believe that going by their actions.

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u/rykahn Nov 17 '24

They were definitely worried about NC. And rightfully so, given how the rest of the statewide races went!

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u/Objective-Muffin6842 Nov 17 '24

There was an article from Tim Alberta a few days before the election and the general vibe from his campaign was not a great one (they didn't think they were going to win)

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u/Reginald_Venture Nov 18 '24

Yeah, it's just, 2016 again, but much worse. It's really just a nightmare.

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u/Khiva Nov 18 '24

It was never crazy to think Trump was likely to lose because by all accounts Trump thought he was likely to lose.

The clip of him walking out to accept in 2016 looked like a man who'd gotten the shellacking of his life.

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u/PleaseGreaseTheL World Bank Nov 17 '24

They didn't. If you were watching early election day coverage, trump was interviewed (well, approached in public during the casting of his own ballot) and even he himself seemed not too sure or confident how the election was gonna go, and said something relating to how it couls go euther way if I remember correctly. Nobody thought it was gonna be an evisceration.

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u/KillerZaWarudo Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24

I did watch his fox news interview, he was low energy (as usual) and getting mad at fox for keep showing Oprah, both him and JD Vance didn't look THAT confidence like their usual gung ho self. There was article about the infighting between the current and ex campaign manager and chaotic last few weeks of the election with alot of people quitting. You even have a bunch of right wing grift panic about women voting for Kamala in secrets

Its just so shocking too see all the traditional norm to predict who would win an election get broken. But then again Trump is a once in a generation earth shattering GOP candidate

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u/DoTheThing_Again Nov 17 '24

In what world was this an evisceration? The election was close. Just like everyone other one where obama was not on the ballot

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u/PleaseGreaseTheL World Bank Nov 17 '24

My brother in christ if you don't think this was a horrible election you haven't paid attention, in many states this was nothing near close and we lost ground in ways we never thought possible; we lost the popular vote for, what, the second time this century so far? And had a worse electoral college defeat than in 2016, which we had won the popular vote in. GOP has a trifecta now as well.

This was a horrible election.

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u/DoTheThing_Again Nov 17 '24

“A horrible election” i agree with bc trump won. In no way was this an evisceration. The dems on average have won by larger margins in the current millennium.

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u/FriendsSuggestReddit Nov 17 '24

150 million votes and Harris lost by less than 3 million.

It was much closer than you’re framing it to be.

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u/CarpeDiemMaybe Esther Duflo Nov 17 '24

Was it that close? I thought it was a landslide

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u/ManicMarine Karl Popper Nov 17 '24

Trump won the PV by 1.5% and the tipping point state by a little over 2%. That's quite close by historical & international standards, it's just that our concept of close elections is all messed up because we have had so many ultra close ones recently (2000, 2016, 2020).

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u/eliminate1337 Nov 17 '24

'I don't like the result' doesn't mean it was a landslide. 312-226 and less than 2% popular vote margin are very normal numbers for an American presidential election. Obama won in 2012 by more.

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u/userlivewire Nov 17 '24

Trump is very superstitious about a lot of things.

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u/Andy_B_Goode YIMBY Nov 17 '24

Yeah, being off by 3 would be a normal statistical error. Being off by 6 would be "well everyone makes mistakes sometimes". Being off by 17 means you may as well be reading tea leaves.

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u/JeromesNiece Jerome Powell Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24

It was unwarranted.

Polling is a crapshoot. There is no such thing as a pollster that has some brilliant methodology or sixth sense that can lead to consistently better results than other pollsters. Her "track record" was nothing more than a series of dumb luck.

Every local pollster in the country has been engaged in a coin flipping competition, and you all fell for the "winner" that got the most heads in a row.

This is why you need to just throw every result into an average and not get too excited.

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u/justbuildmorehousing Norman Borlaug Nov 17 '24

I think thats really diminishing that she had stuck her neck out from the pack in several elections previously and ended up basically nailing it. Its not a random number generator out there and she really did seem to have a good method for polling Iowa really accurately

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u/West-Code4642 Gita Gopinath Nov 17 '24

I still don't get how her poll shifted so much in one month. She has trump up s month before. Guess she had loud Harris voters and shy trump voters

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u/Khiva Nov 17 '24

I would really love for her - or someone - to give a breakdown on this.

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u/eetsumkaus Nov 17 '24

Didn't she for her interviews after the results came out? Basically older women were driving the Harris +4.

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u/jaydec02 Trans Pride Nov 17 '24

Her sample was basically Biden +3. She polled a collection of Biden voters.

Pollsters began weighting recalled vote this year but she never had a more stringent methodology than dialing random people, and weighing by age, sex, and location. Her methodology was from the early 2000s and it finally bit her.

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u/ArcFault NATO Nov 17 '24

Like all polling methodology - it works until it doesn't.

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u/PM_me_ur_digressions Audrey Hepburn Nov 17 '24

She said something about how none of her initial respondents had changed their minds, but that the new additions to the poll were women who seemed very fired up, or something along those lines.

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u/ThePevster Milton Friedman Nov 17 '24

Nate Silver talked about it on his blog. Basically she uses an older polling methodology where you randomly dial numbers, and that methodology tends to skew quite Democratic.

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u/WOKE_AI_GOD NATO Nov 17 '24

I agree, I always find it annoying when people attempt to demonstrate the predictive power of some signal by being like they got it right X times in a row. Like Lichtman and his keys. Think about how many people over that period of time had a similar idea - I'll come up with a series of factors, and it they go this way or that it predicts the election. How many of them have up after it failed on the first or second try? Somebody was going to get a win streak eventually.

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u/jquickri Nov 17 '24

Seriously this. People really don't understand that polls have to be understood in aggregate and there's no person out there who is some kind of poll savant. Hell Nate silver has made an entire career off the fact that he called every state once despite being wrong many times before and after.

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u/PM_me_ur_digressions Audrey Hepburn Nov 17 '24

And we had all the alarm bells ringing about herding being a thing so having an outlier triggered all of the like "oh those other polls are just herding, Selzer is right"

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u/Tyler_Zoro Nov 17 '24

This is just a reminder of what we always knew, but few in the field like to acknowledge: polling is a weathervane . It tells you which way the wind is blowing, at the location you set it up and under the conditions you expose it to, but if you want to predict the weather you have to contend with the fact that that weathervane isn't "aware" of the larger scope of its measurement.

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u/creaturefeature16 Nov 17 '24

I think that's why a lot of leftists are falling to the same election fraud conspiracies as Trump supporters did. Between polls like Selzer, Jon Ralston election prediction (first time he was wrong in 10 years), Trump's weird comments about "we don't even need your votes" and acting like he didn't even care towards the end...it seems surprising that he won.

But at the end of the day, I think the polls were indeed correct this time. It was very close with a MOE that bent in Trump's favor....CNN did a bunch of forecasting and showed this exact scenario playing out if the polling error was in Trump's favor.

Turns out: the American electorate is far more binary than we thought, and having your unpopular candidate drop out of the race in the last 3 months if an election, only to be replaced by another unpopular candidate that nobody asked for, demotivates a big chunk of your base.

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u/Kindly-Weather-571 Nov 17 '24

How do we square the notion of an unpopular candidate against Harris running ahead of Dems in swing states

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u/LeoCrow Nov 17 '24

The answer is, Trump is not unpopular. Polarizing, but not unpopular.

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u/zth25 European Union Nov 17 '24

He is unpopular, there are many Trump voters who dislike him but still vote for him in the end. The question is, why do these people think Democrats are even worse?

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u/mapinis YIMBY Nov 17 '24

Because the Democrats, since 2016 if not earlier, are forever tied to woke in their heads, and all these people needed to hear was “Harris is for they/them” like some sort of sleeper cell activation phrase.

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u/Stanley--Nickels John Brown Nov 17 '24

Trump is more popular with Republicans than Reagan was

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u/zth25 European Union Nov 17 '24

There are millions of non-Republican Trump voters that made the difference though.

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u/Stanley--Nickels John Brown Nov 17 '24

Sure, but every Republican gets non-Republican voters. He might have just done better at turning out his 2020 voters than we did.

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u/ArcFault NATO Nov 17 '24

Bc prices high, vote the bums out.

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u/EclecticEuTECHtic NATO Nov 17 '24

Easy, Harris did not run ahead of Dems in swing states.

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u/arnet95 Nov 17 '24

That's just not true. Dems won senate seats in Arizona, Michigan, Nevada and Wisconsin.

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u/AnnoyedCrustacean NATO Nov 17 '24

But, they wouldn't have won those if the bullet ballots were all in favor of the R candidates.

It was only Trump that got that bump

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u/mkohler23 Nov 17 '24

Which swing states did she run ahead of dems in? She ran ahead of leftist dems in safe blue states but she ran behind a lot of dems who picked up swing states seats

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u/YoullNeverBeRebecca Nov 17 '24

Exactly. I’m in NC and Dems smashed it here with the exception of Harris. I think she helped us, really. Not sure if we’d have done us well if Biden was top of the ticket. That being said, the biggest credit goes to Anderson Clayton and our other Dem organizers and politicians (like Jeff Jackson).

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u/YoullNeverBeRebecca Nov 17 '24

She didn’t? At least not here in NC.

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u/Sspifffyman Nov 17 '24

Nah, Kamala wasn't really the problem. Remember, every incumbent party in a democracy worldwide has been getting hit hard this cycle. The reason? Inflation. Dems on average have a two point or so advantage in the popular vote, and this year inflation caused a 4-5 point red shift, meaning we lost by 1-2 points. That's actually better than most other democracies worldwide. So it's possible Harris was actually a better candidate than most. (Not saying she was for sure, but it's certainly possible)

It was just a horrible environment.

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u/CapuchinMan Nov 17 '24

I'm regurgitating Ezra Klein here, but that's because I think he was right. The problem was also that the means by which democratic candidates do the fact-finding to find out what they will need to do to turn out their base, and what will resonate with independents - primaries - couldn't be performed.

Kamala was accepted because of the narrow timeframe, and access to the electoral funds that Biden had raised, but that too, so late that there wasn't sufficient time to build what might have been a more robust campaign.

Additionally, an anti-incumbency bias meant that there was no room for her to both tout her administration's accomplishments but denounce their failures. A different democrat could have done that. Fucking Manchin, concerning whom there was speculation about a Presidential bid, could have done that with ease. And he would have been better than the current situation.

So much of this has to be laid at the feet of the Biden team - they lied about his ability, and his hubris prevented the party from finding a more able candidate, one that might distance themselves from his administration, but still present a viable alternative to Trump.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '24

Reelecting someone who tried ending American democracy and still patting yourself in the back by concluding that this is better than most democracies worldwide is hilarious.

Trump is more extreme than every far right party in Europe and unlike them, he's actually in power. 

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u/Khiva Nov 17 '24

Trump is more extreme than every far right party in Europe

This is a shallow, basic, misinformed a take as "Bernie would be center right in Europe."

Hungary is a blueprint because Hungary is already Hungary.

And even then, Jesus, Golden Dawn. End of story.

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u/creaturefeature16 Nov 17 '24

I didn't say she was THE problem.

And 7.5 million less votes...is pretty bad.

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u/MasterRazz Nov 17 '24

CNN did a bunch of forecasting and showed this exact scenario playing out if the polling error was in Trump's favor.

This was also Nate Silver's most likely scenario for the election based on his model, that Trump wins every swing state.

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u/AnnoyedCrustacean NATO Nov 17 '24

I am not surprised he won

I am surprised he won the popular vote, and 7/7 swing states

That just seems like he's feeding his own ego

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u/TheGhostofJoeGibbs Milton Friedman Nov 17 '24

The 7/7 swing states is the most likely scenario once you figure out which way the polling error goes. Either candidate was likely to win all the swing states once you figure out which way the voting was breaking.

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u/MasterRazz Nov 17 '24

She didn't weigh her polls, so you can just attribute it to a sampling error. It happens.

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u/Forsaken-Bobcat-491 Nov 17 '24

There was no reason to think she would be correct if you looked at the evidence. 

 No other poster had shown any swing towards Kamala either nationally or in Ohio but she was saying that there had been a massive swing from her previous polls that election cycle.  It just made no sense, previously she had done a great job without weighting in capturing a representative sample but that has its limitations.

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u/iplawguy David Hume Nov 17 '24

No one has hurt me more this year than Selzer.

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u/Evilrake Nov 18 '24

If only Ann had been a little more brave and boosted Kamala a little more, we’d be horrified and disgusted at 4 more years of Merrick Garland instead.

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u/GC_Gee Nov 17 '24

blaming pollsters for outlier polls is how we get a thousand polls all within a couple point of each other

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u/TheChinchilla914 Nov 17 '24

>Be a reputable pollster for decades

>absolutely shit the entire bed in 2024

>refuse to elaborate

>leave

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u/HealthyPromise1441 Nov 17 '24

Normalize messing up then vanishing without explanation.

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u/Goddamnpassword John von Neumann Nov 17 '24

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u/blu13god Nov 18 '24

When the world needed him the most, he vanished

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u/The_Magic WTO Nov 18 '24

He was sent to the future to battle Aku.

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u/incredibleamadeuscho Nov 17 '24

she did elaborate in this post

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u/Khiva Nov 17 '24

Not really. She re-stated that she'd already planned to leave but didn't give much a breakdown on how that last poll was such a wild miss.

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u/incredibleamadeuscho Nov 17 '24

her methodology is clear every time she polls. it didnt change. it’s an outlier poll.

12

u/buyeverything Ben Bernanke Nov 17 '24

I’m going to start referring to my major fuckups as outliers.

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u/gnivriboy Trans Pride Nov 17 '24

She did the same thing she did in previous years. She got it really wrong. Now she doesn't feel like doing this passion project anymore.

All this makes sense to me.

10

u/TheChinchilla914 Nov 17 '24

I think had a good pre-Trump cohort and/or sampling methodology that just aged out and broke over time

I don’t think she’s a lucky idiot like some said but I do question publishing such a prima facie outlier without explaining more how you got there

8

u/UnfairCrab960 Nov 17 '24

She used to publish outliers all the time and be proven right. This one was just way off

5

u/gnivriboy Trans Pride Nov 17 '24

but I do question publishing such a prima facie outlier without explaining more how you got there

Did you not watch any interviews with her? She reminded people she is just doing the same thing she always did. There is no secret sauce and it is public to everyone. They are welcome to do the same thing.

3

u/namey-name-name NASA Nov 17 '24

Tbf if Trump did that after he shat the bed in 2020 we’d be in a much better timeline rn

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u/SuspiciousCod12 Milton Friedman Nov 17 '24

Deeply unfortunate she had to retire after this

"Congratulations to Donald J. Trump and J.D. Vance on their victory," Deputy Political Director Alex Latcham said in a statement. "After four years under Kamala Harris, Hawkeye state voters are eager for President Trump to fix what Kamala Harris broke. Starting on Day 1, President Trump and Vice President JD Vance will help to ease costs, secure the border, and protect Social Security for retirees like Ann Selzer."

121

u/Sea-Community-4325 Daron Acemoglu Nov 17 '24

They're such fucking assholes

76

u/Ramses_L_Smuckles NATO Nov 17 '24

Republican sycophant staffers, especially. They're the political version of production assistants - people in thankless roles with constant infighting and running mostly on ego, having convinced themselves that the big shot's power rubs off on them. There's a definite personality type and it is universally insufferable.

I knew one of the bigwig staffers in the Trump campaign (now White House) in college and he was the ultimate woman repeller.

17

u/plateglass1 Nov 17 '24

Jonah Ryan syndrome.

5

u/EclecticEuTECHtic NATO Nov 17 '24

Yes but Republican so +10 to dickishness.

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u/Replies-Nothing Milton Friedman Nov 17 '24

Nah that was a good burn. If it were the other way around you’d agree,

18

u/OrganicKeynesianBean IMF Nov 17 '24

It’s genuinely a good joke, this sub is too sensitive lol.

17

u/RayWencube NATO Nov 17 '24

No it just makes us angry that the worst people in the world can actually be funny sometimes.

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u/YoullNeverBeRebecca Nov 17 '24

No, it’s wildly unprofessional and a douche move. And for what reason? In addition to getting mad at pollsters being absurd on its face, in 2020, she predicted Trump would do better in Iowa than other pollsters did. Republicans are such hostile aholes for no reason.

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u/Replies-Nothing Milton Friedman Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24

Believe it or not, comedy can—and often does—come at the cost of another person (especially when your off by 17 points). It’s called a burn; and you’ve gotta suck it up.

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u/BreadfruitNo357 NAFTA Nov 17 '24

This is the worst timeline. I hate bullies.

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u/Enron_Accountant Jerome Powell Nov 17 '24

Trump voting Iowans heading into the polls:

https://i.redd.it/t7ntpjhp1h1e1.gif

2

u/Baffit-4100 Nov 18 '24

Same with Lichtman

175

u/ashsolomon1 NASA Nov 17 '24

Take a lesson from this, if you fail once just quit

97

u/NonComposMentisss Unflaired and Proud Nov 17 '24

Good tip, but it works best when you are already 70 and had a successful career.

25

u/nuanceIsAVirtue Thurgood Marshall Nov 17 '24

And announce your retirement a year before said failure

21

u/persistentInquiry Nov 17 '24

Trump took the opposite lesson and it led him to the top of the world.

No matter how many times you fail and no matter how bad, deny accountability and keep coming back. Admitting you're wrong is a weakness. Reality doesn't matter. All that matters is will to power. And Trump has it.

2

u/DrunkenBriefcases Jerome Powell Nov 17 '24

She had planned her retirement long ago. It was commonly referenced in reporting of her last couple polls.

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u/DoctorOfMathematics Thomas Paine Nov 17 '24

I give her +17 odds in her other ventures and opportunities

19

u/DrinkYourWaterBros NATO Nov 17 '24

Not looking good, then.

63

u/the_walrus_was_paul Nov 17 '24

The comments on /r/Iowa were pretty funny when this poll came out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Iowa/s/vslxXWD8RR

Every single other poll and the aggregators had Trump winning. This was clearly an outlier. I don’t care how good she has been in the past, it was so out of line with every single other piece of data, it was ridiculous.

29

u/West-Code4642 Gita Gopinath Nov 17 '24

Including her own previous month poll

11

u/Juvisy7 NATO Nov 17 '24

Seeing that level of detail exuberance is literally depressing. I need a drink all over again 😔

9

u/Superkebabi Nov 17 '24

She had the cojones to publish a poll and not just arbitrarily adjust the results she got when it was an outlier.

She’s probably bailing on the job because it’s labour intensive, and people expect her to be an oracle instead of just someone that’s good at getting people to answer questions in Iowa.

152

u/Leonflames Nov 17 '24

The amount of hopium this sub had to one poll was wild. Anyone who even tried to criticize hedging your whole electoral prediction on this one poll was called a "doomer". I'm still shocked that her poll was off by more than +17 points though. It was a huge miss that wasn't even close.

85

u/BachelorThesises Nov 17 '24

Then there was another guy on this sub always getting upvoted with his "own" forecast that was obviously waaaaaaaay too optimistic with his projected results that were based on vibes and historical results instead of actual polls.

49

u/canes_SL8R NATO Nov 17 '24

That model was atrocious. Very clearly had every swing stats as an independent weighted coin flip that leant harris, and not at all tied together in their results as they are in reality. Harris never had an 85% chance of winning

13

u/Leonflames Nov 17 '24

his "own" forecast

What happened to that fella anyway? I remember he was asked about his methodology but responded by saying that it's still being developed. This sub still supported his model nonetheless.

18

u/BachelorThesises Nov 17 '24

He stopped posting I think.

35

u/KinataKnight Austan Goolsbee Nov 17 '24

He’s moving on to other ventures and opportunities.

2

u/freekayZekey Jason Furman Nov 17 '24

that dude was fucking hilarious. that’s when i sorta checked out of the sub; folks believed his bullshit

26

u/AdFinancial8896 Nov 17 '24

Yeah there was more than one thread that was basically “give some hopium please, anything” lol

While the reasons all sounded plausible, it was obviously intentionally ignoring the wider context in hindsight

5

u/SharkSymphony Voltaire Nov 17 '24 edited Nov 17 '24

If everyone would just follow my modest proposal that all Presidential campaigns are only 1 week long, we wouldn't need all this hopium. Either you're too frantically busy to worry about polls, or you can just check in in a week and get the actual result!

7

u/Used_Maybe1299 Nov 17 '24

Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.

6

u/DataDrivenPirate Emily Oster Nov 17 '24

I said it when her poll was released: someone's career was going to end on Election Night, either hers or Donald Trump's. She's approaching 70, if he won and she was that wrong, it's pretty easy to just close up shop and retire.

3

u/YoullNeverBeRebecca Nov 17 '24

She had already planned to retire after this cycle before this poll was released.

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u/Godkun007 NAFTA Nov 17 '24

I still don't understand who pointed out that this poll made no sense got mass downvoted into oblivion.

Everything this subreddit predicted was wrong, and anyone that tried to point it out got mass downvoted. People here really believed that 80% of women would vote Democrat because of the abortion issue. But anyone with common sense could have told them that this wouldn't be the case.

In the end, Harris lost men (as a whole) by more than Trump lost women. This was always a predictable outcome if you actually paid attention to reality, but this sub refused. Even the Harris campaign campaign knew this was an issue because they were scrambling last minute to run ads directly targeted at men. The issue is that this doesn't work as a strategy, you can't ignore men your entire campaign and do a 2 week push for them at the end.

This sub needs to go outside and touch grass. Talk to people who disagree with them.

61

u/AdSoft6392 Alfred Marshall Nov 17 '24

The market has spoken

107

u/Safe_Presentation962 Bill Gates Nov 17 '24

Kinda wild for her to just… quit. No attempt to adjust? Just donezo.

167

u/whosthesixth NASA Nov 17 '24

She's approaching 70 now, I think she's got what she wanted from a career in the space

36

u/dittbub NATO Nov 17 '24

It’s like the cop getting shot the day before his retirement

6

u/Safe_Presentation962 Bill Gates Nov 17 '24

Fair enough. Thank you for the hopium, Ann.

19

u/Khiva Nov 17 '24

Fucking no one, not even here, has time to read articles anymore.

Over a year ago I advised the Register I would not renew when my 2024 contract expired with the latest election poll as I transition to other ventures and opportunities.

This was also widely reported before her earthquake poll.

3

u/11brooke11 George Soros Nov 17 '24

Wow. She looks amazing for 70.

36

u/OliverE36 IMF Nov 17 '24

I think she was retiring anyway

14

u/ScyllaGeek NATO Nov 17 '24

I thought she was retiring after this cycle anyways

8

u/Khiva Nov 17 '24

Not even three paragraphs into the article.

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u/RayWencube NATO Nov 17 '24

She announced it a year ago.

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u/DrunkenBriefcases Jerome Powell Nov 17 '24

If you read the article you'd know her retirement had been announced like a year ago.

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u/LukasJackson67 Greg Mankiw Nov 17 '24

The realclearpolitics polls, which were derdided here regularly for being “biased” were actually the most accurate.

17

u/HenryGeorgia Henry George Nov 17 '24

During election season, this sub turns off the evidence based portion of brain and becomes an echo chamber. Nothing good is allowed to happen to/be said about the GOP

6

u/LukasJackson67 Greg Mankiw Nov 17 '24

Funny. I noticed the same thing

3

u/Godkun007 NAFTA Nov 17 '24

Got mass downvoted for pointing this out multiple times.

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u/IvanGarMo NATO Nov 17 '24

Thanks for giving me hope

13

u/Tortellobello45 Mario Draghi Nov 17 '24

Lol. Lmao even.

21

u/LordVader568 Adam Smith Nov 17 '24

This is really sad. She was one of the best pollsters.

7

u/RayWencube NATO Nov 17 '24

She told the Register she was leaving after 2024 like a year ago.

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u/financeguy1729 George Soros Nov 17 '24

I mean. What is the point of continuing? Democrats no longer have their first primaries in Iowa, and betting markets have 50% probability that it's going to be J.D.

This error, multiple standard deviations off the mark, completely destroyed her pristine record. It was not just the last poll that was bad, each consecutive poll showed Ds getting votes, in an unprecedented way.

She's doing right. I suggest all the book Quit by Anne Duke. There are times when quiting is the best strategy.

17

u/botsland Association of Southeast Asian Nations Nov 17 '24

You don't need hindsight to see how insane it was to put so much hope and copium in her poll solely based on her goldstar reputation.

She had trump leading biden in Iowa by 18 points in June. Suddenly, Harris led trump in Iowa by 3 pts in November. It's unfathomable that there would be a 21 pt shift in favour of the democrats in less than 5 months.

Moreover, her poll was a major outlier compared to the rest of the polling industry. All of these should have raised red flags to any objective viewer.

She gave democrats false hope which made many blindsided to Trump's victory

3

u/ANewAccountOnReddit Nov 17 '24

But how did she get so off the mark though? Did she only poll Harris voters?

11

u/HenryGeorgia Henry George Nov 17 '24

The poll was conducted basically right after MSG and Puerto Rico comments. Probably had a bad sample + some independent voters leaning trump being somewhat embarrassed

11

u/bigbeak67 John Rawls Nov 17 '24

Ann Selzer rolls worst poll, asked to leave election polling

6

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '24

She said that her polling would break entirely at some point. It did. That's just how it is.

2

u/Astralesean Nov 17 '24

Wait when she said that

17

u/sloppybuttmustard Nov 17 '24

Air traffic controller ending air traffic controlling after airliner collision, moving ‘to other ventures and opportunities’

1

u/brtb9 Milton Friedman Nov 18 '24

Ann Selzer, like Atlas, is going to be the subject of the hot hand fallacy at some point. It's a matter of statistics.

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u/CutePattern1098 Nov 18 '24

She’s just making sure that her Time Machine works well

1

u/CapitalismWorship Adam Smith Nov 18 '24

Big credit to the haters for calling this one right

1

u/izzyeviel European Union Nov 18 '24

Go big or go home. Not quite what we meant Ann.

1

u/cruser10 Nov 18 '24

She's not quitting polling. She's just quitting "The Iowa Poll."