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u/TormentedTopiary Aug 04 '22
If you want to educate yourself about the nature and scope of the issue there is a new book out that examines the structural roots of the homelessness crisis.
It's called Homelessness is a housing problem. and it's a collaboration between an academic and a data journalist.
A quote from the website:
Over the course of the book, the researchers illustrate how absolute rent levels and rental vacancy rates are associated with regional rates of homelessness. Many other common explanations—drug use, mental illness, poverty, or local political context—fail to account for regional variation.
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Aug 04 '22
Do your collaborators account for the abject, utter failure of the federal (as opposed to local and state) government in it's responsibility for the welfare of it's citizens and it's not being held accountable for that failure? The willful blindness to not see that elephant in the room by so many is astounding to me. This is a problem that needs to be dealt with nationally, not in a piecemeal fashion by ill-funded and equiped localities. The federal government is the deep pockets, that can print money and carry massive deficits(unlike state and local) such that if this were a lawsuit the lawyers would be going after like flies on shit. I guess it's just so much easier( and in the end pointless and futile) to simply blame Eugene or the city of your choice.
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Aug 04 '22
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Aug 04 '22
That's interesting, last time I checked we still sent representatives to Washington via elections. Those representatives live to be re-elected. The reason they don't care (much) about the homeless issue is because their constituents aren't in their face about it. Oh, did I mention that's just as much the fault of a lapdog electorate as the government? Personally, I don't want my local government further turning this place into a 'homeless magnet' on my dime by producing (cheap/free) housing for all comers from across the land. There I've gone and done it now, fallen into the vacuous vortex of the homeless "debate"...must hit escape pod jettison button...bang!...I'm outta here!!!
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u/Moarbrains Aug 04 '22
Study: Congress literally doesn’t care what you think https://act.represent.us/sign/problempoll-fba/
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Aug 05 '22
And a big part of why they don't care is because the electorate, for a variety of reasons, has come to believe that political "participation" is simply voting every two(maybe) and four years and invariably returning the same clowns back for another term. Despite all the hoopla about the political divide, Americans have largely removed themselves from the political process. So it shouldn't be at all surprising that the elite pays them little heed.
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u/Moarbrains Aug 05 '22
When do you think they stopped caring?
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Aug 05 '22
There's no hard date one can point to, it's a process that has evolved over years, decades in fact. And it feeds on itself, as people come to believe their voice doesn't matter they become less likely to particpate. Events like Citizens United certainly play a significant part but I'd say they're more symptoms then anything. Americans have in essence decided that they have better things to do than engage fully in the "messiness" that is particpatory politics (aka democracy). Generally when people do engage it's on behalf of a particular cause(abortion,etc.) dear to them afterwhich they're likely to call it a day. It's sort of like they've become "specialists", when what is really needed are a lot more "generalists". So politicians can play to these "niche" causes to cement their base, which makes it appear that they "care". They're the "house" and we 're the rubes being played but it's our choice. My take anyway.
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u/TormentedTopiary Aug 05 '22
Federal policy has definitely played a role in getting us to where we are today, and should play a role in getting us out of the mess we're in.
Although, national level legislative politics are currently beyond dysfunctional and are unlikely to do things like reform the mortgage system or implement a practical housing guarantee.
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Aug 05 '22
A primary roll IMO, but as you say given the perpetual clown show in DC pigs will fly first. So things will only get worse since its unsolvable at the local(or even state) level and no amount of debate will change that.
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u/TheLordofAskReddit Aug 04 '22
It’s almost like people pay more to live in more temperate climates, which also allows homeless people to live more comfortably relative to more extreme climates.
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u/davidw Aug 05 '22
I just read this and can confirm. It is a fantastic look at the systemic problems.
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u/InfectedBananas Aug 04 '22
It's called Homelessness is a housing problem
Weird, if it's a housing issue, why are they come from across the country to live in a tent here? why didn't they just stop in a cheap housing state?
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u/TormentedTopiary Aug 04 '22
The persistent myth that "homeless people move here to take advantage of our generous social services" has the slight problem that it's not true.
But it's a very Eugene thing to build up a self-image of "Oh, we're so kind, and generous and people take advantage of us Soooo Much!".
And as a group we want to be seen as kind and put upon, rather than say arrogant and clueless, or judgy and tightfisted. But that myth is an excuse for not solving the problem at the root.
Which is to say building a lot more housing. Build enough housing that 20% of a full time salary on minimum wage is enough to rent an efficiency apartment. Enough that the rental vacancy rate is 10% of available units on October 1st. Enough that commercial landlords are putting up billboards saying there's too much housing.
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u/Houseofducks224 Aug 04 '22
Yeah, Nimbys fight all new construction tooth and nail, from student housing to subsidized housing, to luxury housing, to market rate.
We haven't build enough units to keep up with population growth since 2007. Of course we have a housing crisis.
HB2003 will make the city publish a plan to meet the actual housing need.
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u/iblametheliberals Aug 05 '22
just look at how mad people get about the student "high rises" on this sub. imagine the NIMBYs if they tried to build housing like that anywhere else.
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u/antipiracylaws Aug 04 '22
I mean I can comment that here in WA, to combat the NIMBY culture, I've moved to the only allowable place, their front yard!
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u/labelm8 Aug 04 '22
People move here because Eugene is seen as a nice and chill place to live. And part of that is almost certainly the cheap plentiful cannabis.
But that begs the question, is it our duty to provide housing to every person who migrates to Eugene from all over the country?
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Aug 04 '22
People that have lived here their whole lives can't afford housing. Manufactured homes (double wides) are going for $350k+. Yeah, we need more housing.
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u/Relative_Fee8962 Aug 04 '22
Yes, it is our duty. People deserve food, water, shelter, and healthcare at the absolute least. There is more than enough money and materials to accomplish this, but because a company can make more money by not providing them, it will not happen without severe coercion.
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u/labelm8 Aug 04 '22
So if I like the oceanfront views of Malibu and decide I want to live there, then I should expect there to be housing for me there, regardless of my ability to pay for it?
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u/Relative_Fee8962 Aug 04 '22
Correct, because the ramifications of not providing housing are more severe than the cost of providing it.
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u/TheLordofAskReddit Aug 04 '22
You should provide it then. Stick it to the greedy capitalists and save the homeless all at once!
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Aug 05 '22
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u/TheLordofAskReddit Aug 05 '22
No one said individual. Start a company or corporation that doesn’t operate for profit. Pool together the resources of the people that care and do something. You’ll even have a competitive advantage.
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Aug 04 '22
how would they keep that up in years of higher influx / pop growth / breeders popping out buns in the ov?
at some point you’re always playing catch up. decrease pop then there’s adequate housing.
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u/2peacegrrrl2 Aug 04 '22
So. We need to destroy every tiny bit of green left in this f ing town for new people who desperately need housing and free stuff?
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u/aJakalope Aug 04 '22
There are plenty of ways to build more housing without depleting green space.
Build better public transit and build fewer parking lots. They built a massive parking lot for county workers on Pearl that could easily be housing.
You can build less single family homes and remove some of the height restrictions in town in exchange for affordable rents.
You can incorporate green space INTO housing projects.
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u/pirawalla22 Aug 04 '22
Oh yeah, we are definitely in danger of destroying "every tiny bit of green left" in Eugene.
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u/mrsclausemenopause Aug 04 '22
Arguably, increasing density even if it reduces green space within the city protects more green space outside the city where it matters more.
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u/thelastpizzaslice Aug 04 '22
They did studies on this in Seattle and San Francisco. Homeless individuals are mostly either local or travel from other less developed parts of the same state.
Why do they move to these places specifically? Jobs. They move there for jobs, and eventually lose those jobs. Then, they become homeless because even losing a job for a month can make you homeless if you're spending 50+% of your income on rent. Tale as old as time.
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u/InfectedBananas Aug 04 '22
Why do they move to these places specifically? Jobs.
What a load of shit.
They move there for the services to live off of, the free narcan responses, the easy to buy drugs. Jobs? Bull shit.
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u/pirawalla22 Aug 04 '22
You are a profoundly ignorant person.
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u/InfectedBananas Aug 04 '22
OK, why haven't they found a job then?
Why aren't there lines at Goodwill job centers of homeless people trying to find jobs?
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u/Relative_Fee8962 Aug 04 '22
40% of unsheltered homeless people are employed.
50% of temporarily sheltered homeless people are employed.
Many of the rest have untreated mental health and drug addiction problems. With proper medical treatment, the remainder could also achieve financial independence, while the rest would likely need permanent care.
Do not forget, the homeless are people. You should help them because we need to look out for each other.
If you need another reason, then the Housing First model drastically reduces homeless populations, and is significantly cheaper for taxpayers than how we currently deal with them.
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u/InfectedBananas Aug 04 '22
If 90% of them have jobs, why are most of them in a $20 tent and tarps in Washington Jefferson Park or similar park, or a burnt out 40 year old RV in a neighborhood.
They have no real expenses, yet you say they have jobs, where is that money from the job, huh?
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u/Relative_Fee8962 Aug 04 '22
If 90% of them have jobs
Been a while since you've been to a stats class, huh?
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u/InfectedBananas Aug 04 '22
OK, sorry, if half of them have jobs, where is that job money going?
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Aug 04 '22
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u/InfectedBananas Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
Or I have a different work schedule than you.
Maybe we should act like a real Eugene area landlords and jack up the price of rent the max every year and ignore maintenance issues instead of right now when we've only increased rent by $50 a month in the last two years on way under market 3-4 bedroom, 1.5bath, 2 story, 1,200 sqft, front and backyard, garage, $1200 places that you'd be lucky to find a 2 bedroom apartment for, and maintenance that is available as soon as possible and have worked with tenants on times when they had trouble paying from events in their life,including straight up lowering their rent.
Yeah, we must be terrible!
I only shit on the drugged out homeless, the lifestyle homeless, the stealing homeless, they drag everyone down and that's why I don't speak highly of them.
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u/thelastpizzaslice Aug 04 '22
Homeless people pretty much never move for drugs. Think about it. You're homeless, poor and addicted to drugs. If you move without said drugs, you could withdraw on public transit and die. If you move with the drugs, you risk having them stolen, confiscated or going to jail. Either way, you wont be able to afford more than a couple days worth because you're homeless, and also you have no way to secure your belongings.
The destination city has a ton of risks that you can't predict at all. Hope you can find an affordable dealer fast. Hope you can figure out how to avoid cops in a new city. Etc. Etc. Homeless drug addicts rarely move, and when they do, it's because there's either family or a job at the other end -- otherwise, the benefit is too nebulous and the risk is too high.
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u/OrangeKooky1850 Aug 04 '22
Because a lot of cities and states just bus their homeless out west. Literally. They don't want to deal with the issue locally so they ship them out. A great way for red states to pretend they don't have a homeless issue.
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u/Revolutionary-Boss77 Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
Is this mentioning drug abuse too? Because a lot of it has to do with it too.
Why the down votes ? I am not sure why ignoring the problem is better.
If you want to help you need to be aware of the reality . Some of them are on drugs due to childhood trauma and several other reasons
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u/TormentedTopiary Aug 04 '22
The book goes to some length to show that in places where the rent is low there is just as much or more drug use; but less homelessness.
As to the downvotes; I'm guessing it's because you came into the conversation with a preformed opinion that you seem intent on pushing on other people whether or not the facts bear it out. (I neither downvoted nor upvoted you.)
I would suggest you sit with the question of what emotional needs your opinion fulfills for you.
Does it make you feel less vulnerable to becoming homeless to blame it on something you don't do? I assure you that teetotalers are just as likely to become homeless as drug users or alcoholics.
Is it that it's easier to blame an intractable problem the solution to which would make rich and powerful people slightly less rich and powerful on a visible evil that can be blamed on the people it affects rather than on those who inflict it?
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u/puppyxguts Aug 04 '22
People who live in homes already do drugs. Yes, even the hard ones, and nobody is trying to shove required treatment down their throats and derailing the conversation from something that's been studied extensively ad a solution.
I do believe that there should be super robust case management, mental health treatment, detox, recovery, needle exchanges programs etc. For people who transition back into housing for sure. These are all things that are severely lacking, but giving someone a place to shelter makes it way way easier to even want to engage with that stuff in the first place. Being homeless means only being able to think 10 minutes ahead and if they want treatment now but a bed isn't open (which it isn't often), then they are on to the next thing to survive.
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u/Seattleisonfire Aug 04 '22
People who live in homes already do drugs. Yes, even the hard ones, and nobody is trying to shove required treatment down their throats
That's because the housed drug users generally aren't causing problems that impact the rest of society to the extent the vagrants do. Theyre only fucking upmtheir own lives, not other people's. Furthermore, the number of homeless drug users is hugely disproportional to the number of housed drug users.
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u/puppyxguts Aug 04 '22
Okay and your point of it being disproportional is??? If you also count people who smoke weed and drink alcohol in there I'm sure it's not that disproportionate. Wonder how many housed drunk drivers kill people or start fist fights compared to how many homeless substance users kill folks or start fist fights?
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u/Revolutionary-Boss77 Aug 05 '22
They poop in their on house instead of outside offices like here. They don’t leave needles outside where people can get poke. Including children with their bare foot in the summer.
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u/moocow4125 Aug 04 '22
Down votes because you're wrong. Housed people are just as much drug addicts as unhoused people, just different drugs.
Some of them =/= a lot to do with it, your words.
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u/puppyxguts Aug 04 '22
Or the same drugs. Plenty of housed people who do meth, heroin, coke/Crack, prescription drugs etc
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u/Revolutionary-Boss77 Aug 04 '22
I never stated 100% was due to drugs
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u/moocow4125 Aug 04 '22
Yeah you just just and close your wrong statement that way for other reasons. Lol
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u/Octatonic_composer89 Aug 04 '22
This is a symptom of severe poverty and a failure at a base level. A lot of us will likely be in tents ourselves. Welcome to the future
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Aug 04 '22 edited Jun 09 '24
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u/headstar101 Aug 04 '22
I'm glad you put that in quotation marks because there are people who absolutely think that way.
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u/expo1001 Aug 04 '22
Yeah-- people who have worked hard and enjoyed success don't really understand what it means to work hard over and over-- intelligently even-- and to continually fail.
If their success was rewarded commensurate to their struggles? Then that rule should apply to everyone. Using this logic, it's easy to justify the unsuccessful as lazy or otherwise unworthy.
It's easier than admitting that we live in a random, cruel, and blatantly unfair world where despite our best efforts, we do not always prosper.
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u/Impeach-Individual-1 Aug 04 '22
I work full time and am still one medical crisis away from homelessness. The system in this country is broken.
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u/ElBernando Aug 04 '22
Single payer/nationalized healthcare would be a big part of helping the chronically unhoused and prevent it from happening in the first place.
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u/Appropriate_Oil3229 Aug 04 '22
Unfortunately the system is working just fine, thank you. Just not for consumers .
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u/OldAssociation2025 Aug 05 '22
But you’re not one crisis away from being a methhead that steals my bike and calls my wife is a bitch, and those people are the real issue.
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u/Moarbrains Aug 04 '22
Kind of bs, as the people in eugene are almost pathologically helpful. We have burrito brigade, cahoots, shelter care, storage, vehicle campsites, lax law enforcement, decriminalized drugs, tiny house villages, food pantry, shelter care. White bird, st vinnies, urban camping, Catholic community services, and a whole bunch of people doing drive by charity
As nice as that is, and i am sure all that gets a lot of people off the street, we still have more homeless per capita than anywhere else. I hear all the programs have a waiting list. I suspect that many people would rather be homeless in eugene than access services in a place with lower rents and less people on the street.
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u/puppyxguts Aug 04 '22
The people who work in these professions are pathologically helpful, but the greater amount of people in Eugene fucking push back on a lot of the work we try to do to make all this more successful.
How much money do you think it costs to move and pay deposit and rent and buy furniture let alone even get it to your house if you don't have a car?
Also, can you tell me of a smaller place with similar services that don't have waiting lists? When we call and do find that there are shelter beds elsewhere, people are eager to go. When clients know they have friends and family that will out them up and help them find a job, they eagerly go. This is all based in reality, shit I see every day. Quit fantasizing so you can make yourself feel better that people are making the choice to be in the position they're in.
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u/Moarbrains Aug 04 '22
You misunderstand me, only a small very visible subset prefer homelessness. But dont act as if they dont exist.
Can you find a place with more services or a place with a higher per capita homeless rate?
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u/puppyxguts Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
I'm not trying to act as if they don't exist, there are people who don't want to be housed. A lot for very different reasons. But it often isn't just because they just...WANT to, many have experienced intense trauma. Getting neglected by parents and family, getting abused. Some find a great sense of community and excitement from the lifestyle so they don't see a point in getting out. Harder to have compassion for some of those folks because they are SO hard to reach but even some of them come out of it wanting to do something different
kinda surprised that Santa cruz is number 1, but I lived there and worked in mental health and there are quite a few BHU diversion homes, community outpatient mental health centers, and supported housing for people with SPMI. I'd say it rivals eugene but I'm not absolute on that fact. You can pretty much take sheltercare out of the equation here too. I don't know how people access any services there besides medical respite which is extremely short term and needs to be approved by an MD and insurance
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u/Moarbrains Aug 04 '22
That link was appreciated, even though ot says vehicle manufacturing is the main economic driver for eugene. Still glad to see qe are not on the tippy top.
Shelter care has supported housing, transitional housing and a bunch of programs to support those who are in damger of losing their housing. They dp some gopd work and absolutely count.
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u/puppyxguts Aug 04 '22
I just work in social services, and any time I try to call they don't answer or don't have any services available. This is super anecdotal and I shouldn't diminish their part, it just feels extremely inaccessible, or at least way less accessible than most people probably think.
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u/Moarbrains Aug 04 '22
I just know what they claim. They are likely inderstaffed and just treading water. I noticed they were hiring and the wages have gone up. I hope they find some people who can handle the work.
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u/puppyxguts Aug 04 '22
Me too, we are all extremely underpaid, even for the agencies that pay fairly well, ESPECIALLY since prices have gone up so much. If they had more funding sources I think they would be an extraordinary asset to the community for sure
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u/Moarbrains Aug 05 '22
Yeah funding would always help. But i fear that unless we address some fundamental issues in society it is only treating symptoms.
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u/puppyxguts Aug 05 '22
I am on the same page with that, completely. I really wish that my job wouldn't exist, and that's the goal. I feel like most conversation falls flat, though, when you try to get people to start looking at the roots of these problems to address them. It's difficult and requires a lot of time, effort, critical thinking. Most people don't want to engage in that, so stick to their narrative and that's that, so we don't often get anywhere with this whole thing
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u/ccooksey83 Aug 04 '22
Housing should be a right. We are rich enough as a country to take care of everyone. If we give people the basics to survive (food, shelter, healthcare) some people will not work, but most will still want above the bare minimum. Some people are so scared of someone getting something they don't deserve that they will withhold help from everyone.
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u/Moarbrains Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
Sure, but who is going to pay for it? Not the people with big money or corporations.
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u/TormentedTopiary Aug 05 '22
Remember when the top tax bracket in this country was taxed at 90% ?
It wasn't that long ago. We did amazing things in those days; built national parks, interstate freeways, airports and dams. We went to the moon.
We could make the rich who benefit the most from society pay their fair share for it's maintenance and support.
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u/GingerMcBeardface Aug 06 '22
Literally everytime someone says "but how are we going to oay foe if" the answer is "very painfully easily if we prioritized the people
We HAVE THE money. We keep the same leaders in power he keep things like the military industrial complex as the singular priority for our counrry.
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u/jawshoeaw Aug 04 '22
I think the problem is that a) none of those services get you housed and b) all those services attract homeless individuals from other areas where they are not as nice
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u/GingerMcBeardface Aug 06 '22
That's partly WHY we have so many homeless compared to other areas. Which is why we have to look to state and federal solutions and not just more local initiatives.
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u/Moarbrains Aug 06 '22
I like what this guys says in his interview. Too bad I don't think he will get elected.
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u/Vann_Accessible Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
We need more housing. Period. The Nell just opened up on Charnelton this week, thanks to the combined efforts of Homes for Good and Lane County, which helped 45 unhoused people get off the streets, so that’s wonderful.
Just a drop in the bucket though. We need to continue to build affordable housing.
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u/dazzler56 Aug 05 '22
It’s a start. I work for one of the social services agencies in Eugene and the biggest problem I see is that, while a housing-first model is fantastic, most folks who are chronically homeless need more help than that and the services available here are just too widespread, difficult to navigate, have very long waitlists, are extremely short staffed, and/or are too high-barrier for many homeless folks. Lack of services is why the Commons is failing so I hope the Nel does better.
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u/Moarbrains Aug 04 '22
It is to no ones benefit to consolidate all the homeless housing programs into one town or even two counting portland.
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u/warrenfgerald Aug 04 '22
A federal UBI would solve this problem. If we all know with absolute certainty how much money every one of us has access to we would no longer be vulnerable to claims of helplessness by people with signs asking for help. If I know the panhandler on the street corner is getting $1000/month and there are apartments for rent in El Paso texas for $250/mo I won't be as likely to say "They don't have any other options but to ask for handouts at this corner" Because once a UBI is in place we know they have other options.
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Aug 04 '22
I would argue that funding and properly funding the federal housing and urban development department would solve this issue. We act like homelessness is inevitable but it's not. In fact, in many other countries it's very unusual to see homelessness. We have an entire department set up to manage and provide low income housing. We just don't fund it. In fact, we actively underfunded. We certainly don't do very well in building new units. We allow crime and landlord abuse and unsafe housing conditions to flourish in low income in subsidized housing. Then we bitch and moan about how homelessness increases crime and how violence keeps going...
A lot of people don't know that when housing projects were first built, they were actually really nice and desirable. They were communities. But when you have decades of no upkeep, unsafe conditions (lead contamination, broken elevators, no lights or security measures in vulnerable places, vermin and insects, landlords who repeatedly violate code) - is it any wonder that these places have deteriorated and created more crises?
And we pretty much treat most crucial government departments in this way on both a state and federal level. Foster care is underfunded, criminal defense is underfunded, housing is underfunded, pollution control is underfunded, enforcement of housing codes is underfunded, welfare and food stamps and workers comp, mental health, public health... It just goes on and on.
With no safety net, no wonder people fall through so often
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u/warrenfgerald Aug 04 '22
All of this is too convoluted. Just give people money and let them spend it as they wish. If someone wants to live in their parents basement they should still get the same benefits as everyone else. We have too many intellectuals who believe they should decide what other people need or want. You and I have no idea what some random person needs or wants. Just give people money. If they blow it then so be it. We can't save every human being on earth from making poor decisions and the more we try the more we interfere with general human flourishing and prosperity.
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u/ccooksey83 Aug 04 '22
A better plan would be housing and food vouchers given to everyone. You would end up with higher taxes but the voucher would cover it until you make a high enough amount. Basically the more you make the less "free" money you get when you factor in taxes. All the issues people point out as flaws of these plans can be addressed, we just have to actually think about them rather than reject the idea before it can be adjusted. The issue is nobody wants to put in the work to think critically about anything. They just repeat stuff they heard elsewhere.
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u/warrenfgerald Aug 04 '22
So if an adult lives with their parents and grows their own food they don't get any benefits? This is the problem. Not everyone needs the same things. If we give everyone cash it ensures that people are treated fairly.
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u/ccooksey83 Aug 04 '22
Cash can be spent on things that are not basic essentials (housing food etc...). Part of the system could be cash payments, but ideally you are trying to avoid situations where people can blow all their money on drugs or whatever and be in the same position. The key part is having a real discussion about the concerns and addressing them rather than throwing the whole idea out.
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u/IronyAndWhine Aug 04 '22
Landlords would just gobble up any UBI. Everyone has an extra 1000 bucks/month in their pocket? Badaboom rent goes up 900 dollars.
The issues are structural. I'm not against UBI, depending on how it's funded (ie whether its truly redistributive), but just injecting more money into the system doesn't change how it functions.
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u/thelastpizzaslice Aug 04 '22
We could have a UBI with what we're currently spending on social security. Turns out like half of social security spend is just giving people cushy retirements instead of its original anti-poverty purpose.
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u/puppyxguts Aug 04 '22
Lmao vulnerable to claims of helplessness. You can give them money or don't, that's an individual choice.
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u/warrenfgerald Aug 04 '22
If we all know that on the 1st business day of every month $1000 gets deposited into every Americans checking account, and you see someone on the corner on August 3rd with a sign that says "I need money for food" wouldn't you want to ask them "what did you do with the $1000 you got two days ago?"
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u/ccooksey83 Aug 04 '22
That is why you do vouchers like food stamps but for everyone. This is a problem easily solved just put in some mental work to think it through. You could do housing vouchers as well.
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u/puppyxguts Aug 04 '22
I literally would not care what they did with it if it is MY individual choice to even pay attention or entertain the thought of giving them money. Hilarious how you're feeling victimized yourself because your eyeballs have to take it someone flying a sign for 5 seconds out of your day.
Also 1000 is a pittance to live off of. Quads cost 650 at least now. Groceries are anywhere from 50-90 dollars a week. Can't afford to get a car, and a bus pass is 50 dollars. Assuming they can work 32 hours a week at minimum wage would make a big difference, but housing and bills still eat into essentially half of their total income even with work, which is where we are all getting screwed anyway.
I am not against a UBI with heavy business regulation. I think it WOULD help a lot of folks and probably keep them from needing to fly signs but putting it in the way where someone with a home and money is being made vulnerable by a cardboard sign is still laughable.
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u/Randvek Aug 04 '22
I don’t think that it would.
Fundamentally, the homelessness problem is a shortage of homes. If there are more people than there are homes, it doesn’t matter how much money you have, someone is going to be without one.
We can argue about why there is a mismatch between the population and homes, and I think there are probably many reasons going into it, but any solution focused on the people rather than the homes isn’t likely to solve anything. The people aren’t the problem.
If you think giving the homeless money will solve this, I’ll ask this: what housing do you expect them to rent?
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u/warrenfgerald Aug 04 '22
There is not a shortage of homes. This is a contrived fallacy created by the YIMBY movement and real estate lobby. The truth is we have too many people who feel like they are entitled to live wherever they want for whatever price they can afford. I would love to live on the beach in Hawaii, but I can't afford it. I could claim that there is a shortage of homes on the beach in Hawaii, but thats not an accurate description of what is actually the root cause of the grievance here.
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u/Randvek Aug 04 '22
This doesn’t pass the smell test to me. That makes sense if homelessness was only a problem in a few places. It’s not. It’s happening everywhere. Eugene and Portland may be worse than average but I promise you it’s all over the place.
Where do you propose sending these homeless that they can suddenly have available homes?
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u/TheLordofAskReddit Aug 04 '22
Property lines are whats causing this issue, we are no longer in an era where you can keep pushing undesirables further west.
To answer your question, there are more houses than homeless. But they are all in the Midwest/East. However, these places are still too expensive for people who have nothing.
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u/warrenfgerald Aug 04 '22
Here is an apartment complex in El Paso that has listings for under $200/mo. There are places like this all over the US. If everyone had $1000/mo there is no reason why a homeless perfon would prefer to live in a tent in soggy Washington/Jeffferson park all winter when they can rent an apartment in Texas and still have $800 left over. The only reason they might choose Eugene would be because we let them get high and stabby while Texas doesn't put upwith that crap.
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Aug 04 '22
Just for a little education on what you just listed -
El Paso Texas has a problem where they manipulate migrant workers and border hoppers so they post these kinds of adds that say 70 dollars a month! 145 dollars a month! Which they mean that is the first months deposit on their 900 dollar single bedroom apartment that 4 people are going to live in.
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u/Randvek Aug 04 '22
Um, you didn’t actually read that listing, did you? If you did, you’d see that the cheapest apartment they have available is $805. $1000/mo won’t make that livable.
God damn dude, at least read your fucking links before you use them as evidence for your dumb theories. Bet you felt pretty fucking proud of yourself for finding that link.
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u/OldAssociation2025 Aug 05 '22
Can we stop pretending this is about the homeless? It’s not, no one doesn’t have sympathy for the homeless. It’s about the violent methheads who also happen to be homeless, they’re the problem.
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u/Rembo_AD Aug 11 '22
As someone with a drug addict Uncle who has been given EVERY priviledge by my family to be housed, and still is on the streets with his junkie buddies at 72 years old...I think you should get more upvotes.
Yes he had trauma due to his childhood as a war orphan prior to being adopted by my loving grandparents. Yes, he can't get along with anyone hence why housing doesn't work for various reasons.
But everyone pretends like there's just some fucking tax hike or program around the corner to help these folks. There isn't. It's there already, they just can't or choose not to use it.
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Aug 04 '22
[deleted]
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u/SenatorSnags Aug 04 '22
And those that disagree with what you’re seeing day in and day out, claim you’re heartless while they use cherry picked statistics to prove their point. It’s a drug addiction and mental health crisis. Housing is an issue but its not the root cause. Someone’s rent goes up to a point they can’t afford, they move somewhere cheaper not buy a tent and take it to the street.
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u/IronyAndWhine Aug 04 '22
What are you trying to say?
No one here is denying that drugs and crime are problems, particularly within the homeless community. But Housing First data clearly indicates that housing people is an incredibly effective way to reduce the likelihood of someone spiraling into drugs and crime. Not sufficient, but necessary to try to fix the problem.
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Aug 04 '22
Honestly this isn't a homeless problem, it's a governance issue. The people in power here spend more money and time on smear campaigns against their opponents and trying to get reelected than they do on solving their states issues. Fucking unemployment dept is running computers that still use WINDOWS XP ffs.
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u/InfectedBananas Aug 04 '22
Just wait for the people who think putting people in homes solves anything while ignoring the reason they became homeless in the first place entirely.
Sure, you fixed the literal homeless part, but not the spending all money on drugs and stealing stuff for money for drugs and horrid violent behavior from doing those drugs.
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u/Eugenonymous Aug 04 '22
Taking care of that immediate need allows people the opportunity to work on those other secondary things. I'm pretty sure that the Housing First model is the most successful at getting people out of that cycle.
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u/moocow4125 Aug 04 '22
Housing first programs data would disagree.
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u/ccooksey83 Aug 04 '22
Please share this data. Neither of you are citing sources...
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u/SenatorSnags Aug 04 '22
Look at any other country that has solved this issue. Forced treatment is what works.
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u/TheLordofAskReddit Aug 04 '22
Examples?
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u/SenatorSnags Aug 04 '22
Netherlands and Portugal come to mind. Portugal decriminalized all drugs and put addicts into mandatory treatment. Treating it as a health care issue instead of a crime. We’ve stopped looking at open drug use a crime but have neglected to address it at all which is exacerbating the homelessness crisis.
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u/TheLordofAskReddit Aug 04 '22
Going off of 2020 numbers:
We have less homelessness than the Netherlands per capita.
Portugal is slaying it with about half of our numbers per capita.
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u/Revolutionary-Boss77 Aug 04 '22
The reason why most of them became homeless is due to a drug abuse. Their drug abuse is probably due to childhood trauma , depression and poor mental health. During this time mental health should be a priority for all of us. So many people suffering anxiety.
Now this also causes me anxiety because a lot of times they are very invading to people personal property and they defecate in the streets the needles I see outside the office I work at also scare me.
But my opinion get down votes , I choose not to ignore the problem because it directly affects me.
I have empathy for the drug users but I don’t like the fear I feel when they camp in front of my house I don’t feel safe.
Why is ignoring the problem better I don’t Understand
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u/Express_Waltz_1789 Aug 04 '22
The reason why people are homeless is because housing is scarce and it costs an incredible amount of money. FULL STOP.
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u/InfectedBananas Aug 04 '22
There are people who have been homeless for longer than there has been a housing issue.
Bro, it's drugs.
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Aug 04 '22
The merry-go-round that is the homeless debate is a perpetual motion machine with a likely half-life approaching that of uranium and nearly as toxic. Carry on, as if it will do any good.
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u/galactabat Aug 04 '22
Seems like a lot of people in Eugene (probably in part due to being exasperated by the subject) hold things against the homeless, like they're choosing their situation or inability to change. It's sad.
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u/Rembo_AD Aug 11 '22
I think it's more due to the growing violent nature of the homeless population more than a lack of empathy.
I have personally seen knives pulled on random passerby, my plumber got sucker punched af Dari Mart the other day, to name a few personally known examples.
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u/Academic_Local_839 Aug 04 '22
Prevention is the key. Children involved in the child welfare and juvenile justice system are often caught in the pipeline to poverty, addiction and homelessness. Prevention is a long term solution and involves addressing oppression, racism and inequity and government and community leaders often look to more short term approaches. I believe we should have both, but until we take early intervention seriously, the problem will continue.
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u/PopeUnderTheMountain Aug 04 '22
I worked at a restaurant, behind the bar. Fancier spot. Almost every day I had to hear someone complain to their friends or the bartender about how bad the homelessness is.
Then they order a 50 dollar stake and another 20 dollar glass of wine. And it’s true, they have to talk about how “a lot of these people want to stay homeless.”
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u/gorgeous_wolf Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
What is the point of this? That's an honest question.
What outcome or emotion are you trying to elicit?
We're all pretty fucking sick of being told homelessness is our fault (it isn't), or that we need to be patient with people stealing our bikes or pooping behind our house (we don't), or that homeless people are victims (they aren't).
What are you trying to achieve here? A chuckle? It's patently unfunny.
Why do we need to "solve homelessness" before we stop the bad actors in the homeless community from fucking up everyone's shit (including other homeless people, who are frequent victims of....homeless people).
Why?
Edit: figured you all would just downvote instead of answer. Par for the course in this city's subreddit. Keep patting yourselves on the back - your downvote was definitely a valuable contribution to the conversation, really for sure! This city is on-track to being unlivable - parts of it already look like a warzone, and that's not hyperbole. Get out of your bubbles. We don't have to find the perfect solution to end homelessness before we stop parasites and predators (yes, they really actually exist) from harming the community.
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u/Revolutionary-Boss77 Aug 05 '22 edited Aug 05 '22
Yeah , I just really think it takes to walk a few steps in downtown and you see a bunch of needles. People don’t care unless it directly affects them . The needles can be contaminated with HIV what if a little kid walking down the street wearing sandals , now during the summer gets poke ?!? And not to mention the defecation in the streets , outside the office I work at it is a everyday thing to find a turd outside. And not to mention the constant fear that someone parking in front of my house will leave a mess that I can be responsable for . Currently I have one living near by both young and healthy looking they lived in there for so long now they should been able to save a lot of money to rent a place but i don’t know if they work to be honest or if they even want to rent a place to begin wit. I truly think that is the way the want it to be by now
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u/Retr0shock Aug 04 '22
Congratulations OP you have initiated a comment thread that actually, finally makes me want to move away. I know that this sub is kinda self selecting for the bitchiest whiners but reading so much genocidal extermination rhetoric -UNIRONICALLY!- from the words of potential neighbors fills me with absolute disgust I don't think I can forget
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u/Forsaken_Formal_6897 Aug 04 '22
You forgot to add “let’s just move them from place to place and act like we are doing something”
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u/Revolutionary-Boss77 Aug 04 '22
First off all I know I will get down votes for this comment. But I think a lot of it has to do with a drug problem. And the problem can’t be ignored if you work in downtown you see they defecate in the streets all the time outside the office I worked the landlord had to clean their mess all the time . I had to call cahoots all the time for them to pick up the needles. And not sure where some of you live but the constant fear that they will camp in front of your house is real.
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u/puppyxguts Aug 04 '22
I had a camp about 40 feet away from my house. For the most part they were really quiet and kept to themselves. I know this isn't the reality for everyone, just giving another anecdote. I'm not downvoting you and I think you do come from a place of understanding/empathy about this. Nobody wants a world where what you are talking about is happening. Just some want to criminalize it completely to make it go away, and others want to be compassionate and help folks and they're constantly at odds with eachother. There is so much data and research and examples of other countries to look atnwhere they've had decent success with this issue, but people choose to cherrypick info from all of that data to suit their bias, or just plainly do not care about what works and just want the problem to go away without thought to other human beings
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u/ccooksey83 Aug 04 '22
So is your solution a war on drugs?
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u/Revolutionary-Boss77 Aug 04 '22
No, solution is mental health for free
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u/Moarbrains Aug 04 '22
Till we upgrade pur mental health paradigm, you are just talking about druuging and warehousing.
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u/nopenopenope-itynope Aug 04 '22
You’re getting downvoted for posting the same inaccurate, nimby nonsense over and over.
Also, you called cahoots, a mobile crisis response team, to come and pick up trash? 🙄
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u/Revolutionary-Boss77 Aug 04 '22
Needles ?
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u/pirawalla22 Aug 04 '22
Not their job my friend
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u/Revolutionary-Boss77 Aug 04 '22
Then why the lady who picked it up told that is her job and I shouldn’t put myself in risk by picking it up ? Why is that when you call them they know is their job
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u/bdspookiedude Aug 04 '22
What are getting at here. Being homeless is the hardest job you will hate.
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u/washington_jefferson Aug 04 '22
TikTok videos and "starter packs" are featured players on the ills of society.
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u/Aolflashback Aug 04 '22
Well looks like the city found a “solution” just in time (and exclusively) for Worlds tho. Weird, huh.
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u/thelastpizzaslice Aug 04 '22
"I hate the homeless... ...
...
...ness problem that is plaguing our city."
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Aug 04 '22
One of the largest issues we face in coming up with a plan is accurate information. Homelessness data is usually tracked via "Point in Time" data collection which is people just guessing how many homeless people exist in an area based on actual physical counts or reports by community service/law enforcement or homeless advocacy groups and the other method is "Volunteer School Reporting" meaning school outreach groups who request people to fill out volunteer forms indicating if they are homeless or not.
Both ways of counting are highly inaccurate and are scrutinized by every major research organization for not only the data collection process but the people who may have political/social or funding bias when collecting that data; yet so much content and material is produced based on these flawed numbers.
Point in time is absurd because you are relying on multiple agencies to provide accurate information and you are hoping that they do not over or under exaggerate and the actual on the ground data collection is marred by the simple fact that homeless people are not going to provide identification nor are they going to really tell you exactly where they came from and how they got there. It always makes me laugh when I see people that KNOW it is true or not true that people travel to the West Coast to be homeless. No one actually knows... Follow the research methods and you will be surprised that it is literally people guessing and asking mostly mentally unhealthy people where they are from and they arent going to tell you anywhere they are afraid to be sent back too. If you were homeless and being harassed by the police do you think you are going to tell them you arent from around there and be potentially sent back across states if you may or may not have warrants out for you ? I dont think so.
Volunteer school reporting is also flawed because generally speaking when you see a high level of homelessness you see a high level of truancy in schools. Not to mention that so many kids that experience homelessness (me being one of them in my past) do not experience it year around and they will occasionally live one place, be homeless, live another place etc so its difficult to use this data for any reliable number.
With all that being said - the solution to this problem offends both sides of the debate and no one really wants to do the hard pragmatic thing and the solution is large and painful but it is a pretty simple solution.
1/ Provide drug and mental health rehabilitation services in a capacity that can serve the known homeless population in the area or at least the best guessed. Provide housing and rehab in a varied institutional level. Teach self sufficiency and require a form of work through community service, employment training or work place location programs.
2/ Criminalize homelessness. This is the part that makes everyone cringe but this is the only way to do it. If someone does not want to be in a safe institution to get free rehab and employment resources they are a danger to society.
Ahh... but that second part... That second part that is going to get the downvotes is the problem. It is the solution but it is the problem isnt it.
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u/puppyxguts Aug 04 '22
You are extremely right about the PIT count. As someone whose participated, you can't just walk up to someone at 7-11 and ask if they're homeless lest you wanna get socked in the face lol. It's extremely undercooked.
I don't agree with criminalization of anything, really, I'm in favor of rehabilitation (I don't advocate for letting violent/sex offenders roam the streets but I also think or criminal justice system is garbage). BUT, like in Finland, if we had extremely robust systems for everyone that promote harm reduction and prevention, then I could compromise with that and then move on to find a better solution. Or, instead of jail, make people go to rehab or some facility that was therapeutic at least. Still not something I would feel GREAT about but if that was the only way to get people to agree to more radical ideas about community health I'd do it
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Aug 04 '22
The criminalization part is the only way the "problem" is taken care of. If we had institutions that could house people that provided healthcare, food, shelter, education, training and all the other aspects of rehab it would be much easier to convince the taxpayer who is going to be footing the bill for all these services to say hey - "This is our social contract- you pay for this and there will be no homeless people" . You would have a far better chance of appeasing the tax payers and actually getting a larger system in place that would tackle the problem. The problem always is there are people who simply do not want to get clean, who do not want get medical and psychological treatment and literally the only way to do that is by force. People who are suffering from mental instability and mental health issues are AFFRAID of assistance in many cases as part of their disorder.
Its uncomfortable, I know but we will simply never get universal agreement and the desire to PAY for it if we dont all agree that we do not want homeless people sleeping outside regardless if they choose to or not.
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u/puppyxguts Aug 04 '22
I don't necessarily disagree with you, especially as a step to getting to an ideal society; there are people who we have failed beyond the ability to help, but putting structures in place that the majority benefit now and later would hopefully ensure that crime as we see it wouldn't exist. Or would on such a scale that it wouldn't be a problem.
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Aug 05 '22
I agree that is why the first step is putting up the money for valuable institutions that actually do the things we need for rehabilitation. There are really two "types" of homeless people and it never helps when the discussion is its one or way or the other way but there are people who truly are just down on their luck and need housing and need services and need all those things then there are people who truly do not care and have zero desire to be a healthy part of society. I have a lot of experience with the "homeless pandemic" from being homeless myself a few times growing up to working in security dealing with homeless people directly on the street and at the management level within security and also as a volunteer.
The people that generally "cause a problem" the violent, the ones breaking into peoples homes, stealing bikes, openly doing drugs, begging etc are generally the ones that have zero desire to be a functioning member of society and the truth is we rarely even see the people who truly need the help so outward looking in most of society is going to see the transient that is trespassing on their property, digging through their trash cans etc and the families, women, children and men who are really utilizing services to get out of their situation or have some decent cling to the desire to get out of the situation are not really "representing" the problem so to speak so they go largely unseen.
I ve been assaulted by homeless people, stabbed at, bitten and even had a few bottles thrown at me working in security and while volunteering and Im just not sure people truly understand what the problem is. There is this bigger wider population that is unseen and then there is the smaller population that is the loudest most obnoxious most violent that get the attention. That is why I think a two prong approach is necessary.
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u/puppyxguts Aug 05 '22
I think we definitely need some form of rehabilitation for people who are a danger to themselves and others if other strategies don't work, but for those that "just don't want to change", there are underlying reasons for that and that's a piece that Id like to address (clarifying that this doesnt mean let people just do their things and stay on the street to harm others).And I am always, always going to give people a chance rather than just throwing them away. And when I say that, that doesn't mean sacrificing boundaries or not expecting accountability. I just don't believe that punishment, as a general rule, helps people change their ways. Sure for some it does, but if it was that effective recidivism rates wouldn't be so high. That's what is so frustrating about the whole conversation, is that if you are against a carceral state that you're a namby pamby and the conversation is shut down, instead of trying to figure out creative solutions that will protect everyone involved but give folks a chance, when they're ready, to trust larger society again and stop reenacting their trauma on others. that's what it is typically, when they start changing into more jaded, hardened folks who think their situation is what it is so they really sink into it.
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u/FarTooWoke Aug 04 '22
I’m less than two weeks away from being “homeless” intentionally and I can’t wait. The system is poison and I’m no longer taking part in it. Our children’s and grandchildren’s lives depend on us being strong enough to break the wheel. At least I’ll be able to say I did everything I could for them. We don’t need the system of indoctrination for slavery. We need each other
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u/warrenfgerald Aug 04 '22
Some others...
"This is the result of capitalism" - Which is odd because the homeless problem is worse in places where government is more involved in housing policies. The very places where the free market is not allowed to function.
and
"Its like this everywhere" - Its not. Travel around the country and see for yourself.
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u/Houseofducks224 Aug 04 '22
Read Engels. Homelessness is a byproduct of capitalism. It has been this way since the 1820s.
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u/warrenfgerald Aug 04 '22
I have read Engels and Marx, and many other socialist thinkers and they are horribly wrong about the labor theory of value and many other things. Marx was also laughably wrong about the inevitable fall of capitalism. Marx was a decent philosopher but a terrible economist.
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u/Danae-rain Aug 04 '22
It ain't over til it's over. When end stage capitalism leaves millions with nothing left to lose we will see what happens.
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u/derivative_of_life Aug 04 '22
"I used to have a lot more sympathy"