r/DebateAnAtheist • u/Lugh_Intueri • 6d ago
Materialism is Debunked OP=Theist
Lawrence Anthony, a conservationist, had a close freindship with a herd of elephant at his game reserve in Africa. He had rescued and rehabilitated them and over time, they developed a trust.
Lawrence Anthony died in 2012. Two days after the elephant herd led by the matriarch traveled 12 miles to his home. They stayed there for two days, mourning as they do their dead.
The elephants had no material way of knowing about Lawrence's passing. There were no phone call, no messages, and no visible signs for them.
After this, the elephants returned again exactly one year later.
https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/mind-blowing-power-of-love-20100925-15rl7.html
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u/I_Am_Not_A_Number_2 6d ago
Okay. Tell me how you ruled out these options -
Coincidence. They just wandered over and it happened to be close to the day of his death.
The people recounting the story misremembered or told a lie. We often muddle up events close to a death and ascribe meaningful things to the death when there was no meaning.
The elephants smelled his death. They can detect water 12 miles away.
Elephants are very intelligent and observant, thy may have noticed changes in his behaviour due to his health declining.
Elephants are sensitive to their environment and may have picked up on human behaviour at the reserve - mourning ritual or altered routines.
Crying or changes in vocal tones, changes in gatherings picked up by vibrations in the ground could be linked to 5.
Elephants transmit information socially between groups; other elephants could have passed on the message that he had died.
If there was a routine that Anthony had with the elephants that nobody else knew about, they might have been keeping the routine.
If the elephants feeding schedule was chanhged, again, perhaps others didn't know about this, but the elephants would pick up on a change in feeding schedule.
(Just to round it up to 10) people perceive there to be a connection because we think we're the centre of the universe. But we're not.
Have you researched and found the most likely out of these possibilities? Are there any other possibilities that could be explained locally, by being there and observing? Why is a non-materialistic explanation more likely?
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
- Coincidence. They just wandered over and it happened to be close to the day of his death.
Not this. They return annually
- The people recounting the story misremembered or tolda lie. We often muddle up events close to a death and ascribe meaningful things to the death when there was no meaning.
The event is photographed
- The elephants smelled his death. They can detect water 12 miles away.
Doesn't explain returning annually
- Elephants are very intelligent and observant, thy may have noticed changes in his behaviour due to his health declining.
Doesn't explain returning annually
- Elephants are sensitive to their environment and may have picked up on human behaviour at the reserve - mourning ritual or altered routines.
Doesn't explain returning annually
- Crying or changes in vocal tones, changes in gatherings picked up by vibrations in the ground could be linked to 5.
Doesn't explain returning annually
- Elephants transmit information socially between groups; other elephants could have passed on the message that he had died.
Doesn't explain returning annually
- If there was a routine that Anthony had with the elephants that nobody else knew about, they might have been keeping the routine.
Doesn't explain returning annually
I9. If the elephants feeding schedule was chanhged, again, perhaps others didn't know about this, but the elephants would pick up on a change in feeding schedule.
Doesn't explain returning annually
- (Just to round it up to 10) people perceive there to be a connection because we think we're the centre of the universe. But we're not.
A quote by Lawrence Krauss
But when you look at CMB map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun. Is this Copernicus coming back to haunt us? That's crazy. We're looking out at the whole universe. There's no way there should be a correlation of structure with our motion of the earth around the sun - the plane of the earth around the sun - the ecliptic. That would say we are truly the center of the universe. The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe, or maybe the data is (s)imply incorrect, or maybe it's telling us there's something weird about the microwave background results and that maybe, maybe there's something wrong with our theories on the larger scales.
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u/I_Am_Not_A_Number_2 6d ago
Where does it say they returned annually?
If they did return annually this isn't a demonstration of the supernatural either. Its a ritual. Many animals have grieving rituals. Elephants visit the bones of their dead relatives. What do you think this demonstrates?
A quote by Lawrence Krauss
So what? An appeal to authority gets you nowhere. Do you even know what it is you're quoting in context?
Shall we go to the words of the man himself... You can find his article here but I'll quote for your ease.
"The notion that anyone in the 21*st* century could take seriously the notion that the sun orbits the Earth, or that the Earth is the center of the universe, is almost unbelievable... the question I had to face after discovering this ***abuse of my words* was what to do about it. The best thing we can all do when faced by nonsense like that, or equivalent silliness promoted by biblical fundamentalists who claim that science supports a literal interpretation of the Bible, is to ignore it in public forums, and not shine any light on the authors of this trash."
So there you have it. Perhaps you will stop spreading trash now? He also suggests this, which I'll leave you with. It seems fitting.
"It is, after all, impossible in the modern world to shield everyone from nonsense and stupidity. What we can do is provide the tools, through our educational system, for people to be able to tell sense from nonsense. These tools include the scientific method, skeptical questioning, empirical evidence, verifying sources, etc."
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
So what? An appeal to authority gets you nowhere. Do you even know what it is you're quoting in context?
Shall we go to the words of the man himself... You can find his article here but I'll quote for your ease.
"The notion that anyone in the 21*st* century could take seriously the notion that the sun orbits the Earth, or that the Earth is the center of the universe, is almost unbelievable... the question I had to face after discovering this ***abuse of my words* was what to do about it. The best thing we can all do when faced by nonsense like that, or equivalent silliness promoted by biblical fundamentalists who claim that science supports a literal interpretation of the Bible, is to ignore it in public forums, and not shine any light on the authors of this trash."
So there you have it. Perhaps you will stop spreading trash now? He also suggests this, which I'll leave you with. It seems fitting.
"It is, after all, impossible in the modern world to shield everyone from nonsense and stupidity. What we can do is provide the tools, through our educational system, for people to be able to tell sense from nonsense. These tools include the scientific method, skeptical questioning, empirical evidence, verifying sources, etc."
I no exactly what I'm quoting and the context. And it is not an appeal to authority. We know that when you look at the entire observable universe the CMB map corresponds exactly to Earth and it's ecliptic around the sun. The plane of our solar system.
That's the fun of Lawrence krause's comment. He put himself out there. He tied his hands. He took a firm position that either the numbers we were getting back were wrong, our models were wrong, or the universe is telling us Earth is actually at the center. And the time since we've sent an entire another mission to space with the playing satellite and confirmed these numbers and the existence of this relationship between the CMB map and Earth and it's ecliptic.
Two different people with two different equipments and two different approaches together in the information have gotten the exact same results after spending billions of dollars to confirm this. So we are now down to two options because Mr Krause did indeed tie his hands which I very much appreciate.
He thought it would be very exciting to find out our models were wrong. This is quite a long time ago now. And he is backed off that idea. But also trying to back off the idea that Earth is at the center of the universe. But offering no new explanation. Just wishing he had never said it at all. Because he's come to enjoy our models the way they are and not want to accept her that the center. That's just too bad. Because he gave himself three options. And now he doesn't want to choose any of them as His most likely answer. If you would at least present some new alternative option that he had missed that would be a little more acceptable. But he certainly is unable to do that either.
That's the fun when somebody ties their hands like that. He understood the ramification of the data but was pretty sure science would offer an out in the future. But it didn't. And now he wants to back out of it. Too bad
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u/Nordenfeldt 6d ago
That's the fun of Lawrence krause's comment. He put himself out there. He tied his hands.
Quote his next paragraph.
I dare you.
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u/ethornber 6d ago
He won't, he never does, and yet he always comes back to it.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
There isn't another paragraph. Did you know that?
This is the last
The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe, or maybe the data is imply incorrect, or maybe it's telling us there's something weird about the microwave background results and that maybe, maybe there's something wrong with our theories on the larger scales. And of course as a theorist I'm certainly hoping it's the latter, because I want theory to be wrong, not right, because if it's wrong there's still work left for the rest of us.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
There isn't another. This is the full last paragraph
The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe, or maybe the data is imply incorrect, or maybe it's telling us there's something weird about the microwave background results and that maybe, maybe there's something wrong with our theories on the larger scales. And of course as a theorist I'm certainly hoping it's the latter, because I want theory to be wrong, not right, because if it's wrong there's still work left for the rest of us.
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u/Nordenfeldt 6d ago
No, they’re not telling that at all, nor is Lawrence Kraus telling us that, literally just asked the question in Wikipedia or type it into ChatGPT because lying about it here just makes you look foolish in public.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
You are clearly unqualified to have this conversation. I was responding to someone who told me to post the paragraph after from the quote I provided of Lawrence krauss. What you just responded to was the last paragraph written by Lawrence Krauss where the quote comes from. Those were Lawrence krause's exact words. And your responses that's not what Lawrence Krause is telling us. This is one of the most ridiculous and uneducated responses I have ever seen in this subreddit. Slow down. Take your time
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u/Nordenfeldt 6d ago
No, you are just a liar, deliberately misrepresenting a frontier of science to serve your mythological ends. Pretty much everyone is more qualified to have this conversation than you.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
You respond
nor is Lawrence Kraus telling us that
To a Lawrence Kraus quote. There is no getting out of it. That's what happened. There is no lying taking place on my end. That is exactly what happened.
Pretty much everyone is more qualified to have this conversation than you.
You are making giant errors and then not owning it and instead calling others liars. The behavior of a sloppy uneducated person who just needs to share their two cents on topics they know nothing about.
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u/Laura-ly Atheist 6d ago
Animals are not dumb and elephants in particular are quite intelligent. The theist idea that humans are the height of intelligence and therefore anything animals do that is smart has to have a supernatural explanation is, well, utterly ridiculous. The 2004 tsunami in Indian Ocean near Sumatra caused an 8.8 earthquake which the elephants felt in the mountains of Sumatra 20 minutes before the wave hit the shore and killed 230,000 people. Were the elephants magical? Was it supernatural? No, they have incredibly sensitive feet.
There are several animals who have ritualistic behavior when their companions die. Chimpanzees, crows, dolphins and yes, elephants have funerals. Elephants have been seen putting branches over the top of their dead.
I might remind you, humans are animals. We're smarter than other animals but we're not the end-all, be-all of intelligence.
Speaking of that tsunami and materialism. Why would your god wave his magic wand over the elephants you speak of but ignore a tsunami that would kill 230,000 people in one day?
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u/I_Am_Not_A_Number_2 6d ago
If you aren't going to listen to evidence, you don't present anything convincing of your own, you aren't going to listen when the absurdities you espouse are rejected by the people you misquote, and you won't listen to reason, what is the point in debating?
"The moon is made of cheese."
"No it isn't, here is the evidence..."
"Well its a shame those astronauts had their hands tied but nuh uh, tis made of cheese."Fingers in ears. "La la la."
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u/outofmindwgo 5d ago
It's not "evidence" of anything. You are just pointing at interesting things animals do.
you are not considering any worthwhile explanations for how and why they do certain things.you can't just assert it makes myths from the Bible true--- stories that don't even reference any of this phenomenon
Like what are we doing?
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u/I_Am_Not_A_Number_2 5d ago
Was this meant for me?
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u/soilbuilder 6d ago
No mention is made of the elephants returning annually. Even if they did, that would not be unusual, elephants have been recorded as traveling to death sites for many years to grieve lost herd members. It is normal elephant behaviour.
Since it appears (according to your link) that the elephants were known to visit, and hadn't visited in some time, then it would not be unusual for them to turn up at his house. The fact that it happened the day or so after his passing is a coincidence, not evidence against materialism.
If their alleged annual return, which is not noted in your link, is your main argument against any other explanation, then it seems you are doing your best to ignore the other much more likely explanations. Your example certainly doesn't debunk materialism.
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u/Davidutul2004 6d ago
The great memory of an elephant can explain it's return along with its sesisazyion of seasons changing
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
To the exsact date. This is never been documented by any other Elephants or species of animal. Certainly seasonal but not to the exact date. I don't think you even think this is the case because it would be a big breakthrough. And you're just not Shalon about it like let's throw anything that makes me not have to challenge my worldview. Even though you're suggesting things that have never been documented and human history outside of this one case
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u/Urbenmyth Gnostic Atheist 6d ago
The returning annually part is explained by the fact Elephants are intelligent beings capable of remembering places they've already been to. Like, it's not a problem for materialism that someone goes to the same coffee shop every morning.
The only weird part is the elephants going there the first time, and there's plenty of explanations for that given.
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u/J-Nightshade Atheist 6d ago
Elephants coming next year? That shows the ability of elephants to track time. They are intelligent creatures, you know?
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u/dakrisis 6d ago
Doesn't explain returning annually X7!
Tell me you hold a presupposition without telling me you hold a presupposition.
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u/SeoulGalmegi 6d ago
What's so special about the elephants returning annually?
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u/soukaixiii Anti religion\ Agnostic Adeist| Gnostic Atheist|Mythicist 6d ago
Obviously alien telepaths are controlling them to give op evidence against materialism./s
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u/roseofjuly Atheist Secular Humanist 6d ago
There's nothing in the article that says they return annually, but even if they did, that wouldn't mean this is spiritual. My dog wakes up and starts doing a dance every morning around 7:30 am, but that's because that's usually when she gets her walk and she has an internal clock.
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u/Literally_-_Hitler Atheist 6d ago
Elephants can recognize other elephants and humans that they have not seen in decades. So you can repeat "Doesn't' explain returning annually" all you want. Doesn't change the fact that there memory does explain it.
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u/Depressing-Pineapple Anti-Theist 5d ago
Returning annually is explained by them having memory, in the same way humans returning to graves annually is also explained by memory. That said, do you have proof they returned annually? I have to admit, it IS a little weird for elephants to use the same exact measure of time as humans. It's not impossible for them to pick up on it, but certainly weird.
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u/NBfoxC137 Atheist 5d ago
Elephants usually return to the resting place of heard members or family members they cared about, it’s not weird for them to return there every year.
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u/Personal-Alfalfa-935 6d ago
"Some elephants did a thing I don't understand, therefore materialism is debunked" is not a coherent argument. I struggle to believe that you aren't aware that this is a nonsequitor. Whether or not we have an explanation for the elephant's behaviour has no relevance to materialism.
And there are many, many potential explanations for the elephant's behaviour: it could be coincidence, they could have overheard other humans saying the name of the person they knew and sounding sad (elephants can recognize distinct voices from over a kilometer away), they could have been wondering where he was if he would have usually visited them on those days and went looking, the funeral process at his home may have involved some unique sound or smell that they could detect from a lot further away, etc etc. But whether any of those specific answers are right or not, and whether we ever figure out how the elephants knew to go when they did, has no relevance to materialism unless someone actually demonstrates that the elephants did this through supernatural means.
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u/Zamboniman Resident Ice Resurfacer 6d ago edited 6d ago
Materialism is Debunked
Lawrence Anthony, a conservationist, had a close freindship with a herd of elephant at his game reserve in Africa. He had rescued and rehabilitated them and over time, they developed a trust.
Lawrence Anthony died in 2012. Two days after the elephant herd led by the matriarch traveled 12 miles to his home. They stayed there for two days, mourning as they do their dead.
So far you have utterly failed to support your claim.
The elephants had no material way of knowing about Lawrence's passing. There were no phone call, no messages, and no visible signs for them.
Well of course they had. Clearly. Obviously. I can think, off the top of my head, of a dozen possible ways, subtle and overt. Not to mention other possibilities for this behaviour.
After this, the elephants returned again exactly one year later.
So? And?
You have completely failed to support your claim. Instead, you engaged in trivially obvious argument from ignorance and argument from incredulity fallacies. This coupled with your comment and post history indicates you are a troll. I can only dismiss this outright.
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u/Transhumanistgamer 6d ago
In the article:
both herds arrived shortly after Anthony's death. They hadn't visited the compound where Anthony lived for a year and a half,
From your post:
After this, the elephants returned again exactly one year later.
So here's the question: how often do the elephants go there? Because it sounds like they take a year break from visiting him and opted to visit.
If he died days after the elephants visited him, I'm willing to bet the story would be that they somehow knew he was going to die soon so they visited him before he passed thanks to the same attributed psychic phenomenon.
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u/Odd_Gamer_75 6d ago
So... elephants, who can smell water at 12 miles away, pick up on the scent of a dead man and travel 12 hours to get to him to mourn as they would for their own since he was, according to the first article, spending basically all his time with them... and you think there's no possible way they could have known about it.
If you say it's not confirmed that they smelled him, I agree... because nothing has been confirmed. You do not know how that happened, and to thus declare that you do know it was non-material is fallacious. Especially when 'they smelled him' is enough of an answer.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
This could possibly explain the initial trip but not the return trips annually
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u/ammonthenephite Anti-Theist 6d ago
So what? Unless you can prove a non-materialistic explanation, this does nothing to 'debunk' materialism.
You saying "I just don't know how it happened!!!!" isn't debunking anything. All you are doing is showing you don't know how it happened and you don't know how the scientific method or claims and burden of proof work.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
No. The work is being done. Sorry for your misunderstanding.
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u/ammonthenephite Anti-Theist 6d ago
And you continue to provide nothing of substance. This is just another version of 'god of the gaps', nothing more.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
Nope. I don't even know if it is god.
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u/ammonthenephite Anti-Theist 6d ago
You don't even know that it wasn't materialism. You don't know, that is the point. "I don't know" does not equal "materialism is debunked". This entire post is a waste of time, good night.
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u/Odd_Gamer_75 6d ago
Annually? They came back once a year later. They liked him. You think elephants can't remember? They visit the graves of their own, too. Oh, and your link doesn't mention the return, I'm just accepting that it happened for the moment because you say so, but so far you haven't even presented that much. Your second link has not one thing to do with elephants.
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u/Appropriate-Price-98 cultural Buddhist, Atheist 6d ago
This might shock you but many animals have brains. The elephant brain is one of the largest, which allows them to have complex behavior like mourning Rare Video Shows Elephants 'Mourning' Matriarch's Death
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
They returned annually. That isn't the same as initial morning
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u/Appropriate-Price-98 cultural Buddhist, Atheist 6d ago
and? Elephants have one of the best memory. They also have a lot of ritual like death mourning, greetings, migrating, etc.
Various things like the climate can remind them of the dude and they can either mourn or wait outside his house.
Moreover, where is the evidence they mourn him exactly 1 year later?
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u/posthuman04 6d ago
Does that require explanation?
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
Yes. It's the biggest part of the story
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u/posthuman04 6d ago
This is elephants walking around their own preserve happening on one place 1 year apart. Other animals travel around the globe to arrive at one place at the same day of year. What’s so special about this?
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
How do you think they know where to go. The map is in their DNA.
You know about the monarch butterfly migration?
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u/GamerEsch 6d ago
How do you think they know where to go. The map is in their DNA.
please, show proof for this claim
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u/posthuman04 6d ago
Why?
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
Because smell is no longer a factor
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u/posthuman04 6d ago
I’m still not grasping the importance. There’s no evidence they knew what they were doing. the possibility of the presence of particular blossoms would easily explain the attraction down to the day.
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u/TarnishedVictory Anti-Theist 6d ago
Materialism is Debunked
And yet I have material all around me. How dumb is that?
Lawrence Anthony, a conservationist, had a close freindship with a herd of elephant at his game reserve in Africa. He had rescued and rehabilitated them and over time, they developed a trust.
I'm betting this fellow and the elephants are material.
The elephants had no material way of knowing about Lawrence's passing. There were no phone call, no messages, and no visible signs for them.
After this, the elephants returned again exactly one year later.
So do you have an explanation for this that is evidence based? Or are you making a fallacious appeal to ignorance?
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
First, let me ask. Do you see telepathy as at odds with materialism? If not we have nothing to discuss
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u/TarnishedVictory Anti-Theist 6d ago
First, let me ask. Do you see telepathy as at odds with materialism? If not we have nothing to discuss
Define telepathy and define materialism.
By telepathy I assume you're talking about being able to communicate specific detailed thoughts from one mind to another.
I don't know what you mean by materialism, but I don't think telepathy is a real thing, of course not, since we don't have any good evidence of it being real.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
Materialism is a philosophical theory that all things, including consciousness and mental states, are the result of material interactions
Telepathy is the idea that one person can send thoughts or impressions to another person without using the senses or physical interaction
There is evidence for telepathy. Increasingly so.
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u/TarnishedVictory Anti-Theist 6d ago
There is evidence for telepathy. Increasingly so.
Please, feel free to cite a peer reviewed research paper with such evidence.
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u/soukaixiii Anti religion\ Agnostic Adeist| Gnostic Atheist|Mythicist 6d ago
Do you believe telepathy was involved in the elephant event?
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u/vanoroce14 6d ago
Materialism is done by... yet another argument from ignorance or personal incredulity? No sir.
This is, being super generous, a cute and intriguing anecdote. IF it led to you investigating more and finding out a practical form of telepathy and how it works, THEN we can talk about Materialism being debunked.
As it is, this sits in the bin with all the other 'I don't know therefore God / spirituality / magic'
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u/Old-Nefariousness556 Gnostic Atheist 6d ago
Materialism is done by... yet another argument from ignorance or personal incredulity? No sir.
I think this is more an "argument from some really weird idea I pulled out of my ass". Saying it is an argument from ignorance is insulting the ignorant people of the world.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
We don't have to know how it works to observe the reality of it. Common I science. Wave-particle duality and collapse of the wave function.
Why play these games?
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u/vanoroce14 6d ago
I'm not the one playing games. You're the one who is. You're jumping the gun based on a story you read.
We don't have to know how it works to observe the reality of it.
No, we kinda do have to know how it works. This is why the spiritual and the paranormal has been stuck at 'woah man, that must have been spirits!' for thousands of years. Because well... when we look closely, there's never anything there.
So no, yeah... cool story, but now you gotta research how telepathy in pachyderms works. Sounds like it would revolutionize many things!
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
What abou wave particle duality and collapse of the wave function
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u/vanoroce14 6d ago
What about it? You... know that's physics, right? So... material?
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
You said
we kinda do have to know how it works
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u/vanoroce14 6d ago edited 6d ago
We do not know that telepathy works by 'wave particles duality' or whatever quantum thing you're spitballing.
You seem to be confused about what 'knowing how something works' entails. You'd need to formalize your hypothesis and conduct many experiments to confirm it.
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u/dwb240 Atheist 6d ago
OP probably read up on telepathy from Dr. Charles Xavier, then turned the page and read up on quantum physics as presented by Dr. Hank McCoy.
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u/GamerEsch 6d ago
read up on quantum physics as presented by Dr. Hank McCoy.
Oh that explains it, OP must have confused "big blue gorilas" (a strange obsession of Dr. Hank) with elephants.
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u/Moutere_Boy 6d ago
But you don’t even know what you’ve observed.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
Noone does with wave particle duality and the collapse of the wave function
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u/soukaixiii Anti religion\ Agnostic Adeist| Gnostic Atheist|Mythicist 6d ago
Both waves and particles are material, so I'm unsure of why you try to use them as support for your position.
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u/GamerEsch 6d ago
what? we know pretty well, we know so well we can model these systems with equations and make correct predictions about their behavior
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u/J-Nightshade Atheist 6d ago
You have to know how it works in order to tell "this is not material". Yes, we observed the elephants coming to his home. No, you can't say the reason why they came was not material.
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u/NoOneOfConsequence26 Agnostic Atheist 6d ago
So, based on the article, the elephants seem to have come by before. It had only been a year and a half since their last visit. Why is this visit special and not the one a year and a half before he died?
How did you eliminate the possibility that the elephants came to visit for a reason unrelated to his death? Did you interview the elephants, or find someone who did?
This is a fallacy called post hoc ergo proptor hoc, "after this, therefore because of this." Just because the elephants returning happened after Lawrence Anthony's death does not mean his death prompted their visit.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
Why did they return the same date each year?
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u/NoOneOfConsequence26 Agnostic Atheist 6d ago
I don't know, that would be a question for the elephants.
If I had to guess, remembrance. The same reason humans will sometimes visit the graves of loved ones regularly.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
This is why I don't take you seriously. You aren't even interested in elaphants having an ability to know a year passed because you are so anxious to dismiss. Very telling
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u/mtw3003 6d ago
It's trivial, that's the issue. Yes, elephants are aware of the passage of time. The span of a year isn't an arbitrary human construct; it's based on external environmental factors, which also exist for elephants.
I don't know why you're discounting the possibility that elephants have sensory abilites that we don't, which we already know is true. Dogs can find people long after they have left an area, because they have sensory capacities we don't. We can identify objects in an image which are dificult for them to distinguish, because we have sensory capacities they don't. We don't need magic for this.
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u/NoOneOfConsequence26 Agnostic Atheist 6d ago
Because it doesn't matter? Even if your explanation is correct, the elephants would have to be able to tell how much time had passed. I mean, it's a cool elephant fact, but I don't see the relevance?
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u/Rubber_Knee 6d ago
Because that's what they do. Traditions and culture are not exclusive to humans. There are many animals that have both.
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u/onomatamono 6d ago
This is completely unremarkable even if true. You have deluded yourself into concocting a supernatural solution for natural behavior. This is classic appeal to incredulity fallacy. Your astonishment is not evidence of the divine, it's just ignorance about the nature of animal behavior.
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u/AmaiGuildenstern Anti-Theist 6d ago
Pack it up, girls. Atheism is done. There's nothing left but to start worshiping our new pachyderm overlords before they turn their telepathic powers against us. I, for one, welcome our new long-nosed gods. I'm sure all they want is peanuts, an oath of devotion, and for us to all stop masturbating.
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u/nerfjanmayen 6d ago
Hey, you know what, we've been crying for new arguments on this sub for years. I was not expected mournful elephants
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u/Old-Nefariousness556 Gnostic Atheist 6d ago
I gotta admit, this is the first truly novel argument I have heard in a while, so props to the OP in that regard at least.
I mean it is a terrible argument, but it is, at least novelly terrible.
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u/Moutere_Boy 6d ago
You had me on board… at first…
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u/AmaiGuildenstern Anti-Theist 6d ago
You know how gods are. Even the elephants are going to be obsessed with your junk and what you do with it.
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u/Haikouden Agnostic Atheist 6d ago
Behold the visage of our new God https://adventuretime.fandom.com/wiki/Ancient_Psychic_Tandem_War_Elephant
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u/marshalist 6d ago
Im glad it was the elephants that got it across the line because cats would have been insufferable.
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u/nerfjanmayen 6d ago
what do you think happened here? God told the elephants that Anthony died? They had a telepathic link?
Or maybe like...the elephants traveled to check on their friend who hadn't visited him and then realized he was dead?
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
They showed up the night he died. Not even long enough for any routine change. Yes I think telepathic.
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u/notaedivad 6d ago
Aren't you a little old to believe in magic?
When do you grow up?
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
What is magic? I thought it meant not real
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u/notaedivad 6d ago
Yes, magic isn't real.
But you also believe in telepathy...
Yes I think telepathic.
Magical nonsense.
Aren't you a little told to believe in magic?
When do you grow up?
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
Explain to me how wave-particle duality and the collapse of the wave function doesn't meet your use of the word magic for any reason besides being real?
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u/notaedivad 6d ago
Because it's consistently able to be demonstrated. It is an observation we have made about the universe, and have come to this conclusion based on the evidence.
The same cannot be said for magic or religion. They are delusional nonsense with no basis in reality.
The difference between wishing something is true, and showing that something is true.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
I said telepothy. Why are you moving moving the goal post
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u/notaedivad 6d ago
Lying doesn't help your argument. It just makes you a liar.
This is what you wrote:
Yes I think telepathic.
Then you wrote:
I said telepothy. Why are you moving moving the goal post
What is telepothy? Do you mean telepathy?
Can you demonstrate how telepathy works without relying on "magic"?
How am I moving the goalposts?
Aren't you a little told to believe in magic? When do you grow up?
We both know you won't answer all four questions.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
The same cannot be said for magic or religion. They are delusional nonsense with no basis in reality.
I said telepathy. Why move the goal post
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u/soukaixiii Anti religion\ Agnostic Adeist| Gnostic Atheist|Mythicist 6d ago
Your lack of understanding of physics don't make physics be magic. Physics is material.
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u/Old-Nefariousness556 Gnostic Atheist 6d ago
Yes I think telepathic.
Let's assume you were right, and this was a telepathic link. How does that "debunk materialism"?
Even if your claim were true (which it probably isn't), all you have done is show a phenomena that we don't understand. You don't "debunk materialism" until you can prove that the "telepathy" involved didn't have some previously unknown materialistic cause.
Of course, the far more likely explanation is exactly what /u/nerfjanmayen and /u/Mjolnir2000 pointed out and they just came looking for their friend. You have simply ignored that-- to the point of lying about the time frames involved.
So why on earth should we think this "debunks materialism" when you have to misrepresent the facts involved to make your argument plausible?
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
So you think telepathy is possible under materialism? Then why is controversial?
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u/Old-Nefariousness556 Gnostic Atheist 6d ago
So you think telepathy is possible under materialism? Then why is controversial?
Where did I say I thought that? You need to work on your reading comprehension, that does not remotely express the point that I made.
What I said is that assuming your unproven assumption was true, you would still need to demonstrate that there wasn't a previously-unknown materialistic explanation before you could argue that "materialism is debunked".
In reality, your evidence doesn't even come slightly close to that. It's not even an argument from ignorance, it is more of an "argument from this really absurd notion I had."
There are easily dozens, probably thousands, of potential purely materialistic explanations for this. But because you just always assume "god did it!", as soon as you see something that you can't immediately explain, you just give god the credit and claim that debunks materialism. It is a truly pitiful argument.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
Where did I say I thought that? You need to work on your reading comprehension, that does not remotely express the point that I made
It was a question. Can you answer
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u/Old-Nefariousness556 Gnostic Atheist 6d ago edited 6d ago
It was a question. Can you answer
I did answer. The fact that you have terrible reading comprehension does not make my answer less of an answer. Granting that something could hypothetically be true as part of a thought experiment is not the same as saying you have offered anything close to a viable hypothesis.
But here's the thing: Your argument is a perfect example of why debating with theists is so fucking exhausting.
You have a supposed event that is presented with, as far as I can see. literally zero actual evidence. Neither of the links in your OP support your claims, and the one link that you later posted was written by an obviously biased writer (his wife), pushing an obvious religious agenda. That doesn't actually show that it is false, but anyone examining the presented evidence skeptically would say "you haven't effered any reason to believe the claims here".
But you just buy in, 100%, without even the slightest critical evaluation. I can think of easily a dozen explanations for the one phenomena that seems to actually be relatively confirmed-- that a couple days after his death the elephants showed up looking for him. That is not remotely unexplainable.
The fact that they then came back annually doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere, but in your guideposts article. But even that has potential purely materialistic explanations. Elephants are well known for their intelligence, and that many animals have finely developed senses of time is well documented. It sounds surprising, but it certainly doesn't rise to the level of "debunks materialism".
Now, I know you stopped reading after the second sentence or so, I know this won't actually do anything to change your mind, but seriously, it is so easy to do better. Just stop and ask yourself "Is there really no other explanation for this?" There almost always is.
Edit: Gotta love that you blocked me rather than conceding you are wrong.
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u/oddball667 6d ago
you gonna read more then the first few words of what he said?
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
I will talk to them directly. But thanks for trying
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u/Old-Nefariousness556 Gnostic Atheist 6d ago
I will talk to them directly. But thanks for trying
Reddit is a public forum. If you post here, you don't get to assume one on one discussions. Why are you afraid of interacting with the point that /u/oddball667 made?
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u/Crafty_Possession_52 Atheist 6d ago
Why wouldn't telepathy be material?
I'm posting this wirelessly using electromagnetic waves. We've known how to communicate long distances at the speed of light for over a century. Unless you're going to claim that the radio in my car disproves materialism, I think you have further to go.
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u/Mjolnir2000 6d ago
No, you said they showed up days later. Get your story straight.
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u/Nordenfeldt 6d ago
So take the next step. Tell us what happened.
The elephants are telepathic? Even if that were true that doesn’t answer your problem because one of the elephants would have to have known about the man’s death to telepathically tell the others.
the elephants are telepathic and one is a necromancer? The elephants are telepathic and so was Luigi who informed them (but not his family) that he was about to die?
walk us through your working theory here.
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u/nerfjanmayen 6d ago edited 6d ago
Why do you think it was telepathy? How do you know that God didn't just tell them? How do you know they didn't just use a magic spell to spy on their friend? How do you know they weren't possessed by the ghost of the conservationist?
edit: how do you know my autocorrect isn't haunted?
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u/Coollogin 6d ago
What are you proposing as a possible explanation for this? I gather, from the title and the fact that this is “Debate An Atheist” that you are proposing that an entity with supernatural powers was at play? Is there more to your theory than just that?
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
I think telepathy is real. I do not make the claim that there is not a mechanism behind it. I don't think anything is actually supernatural. There are only real things in that real things. Anything real is natural. So my claim is that there's evidence of telepathy. I think telepathy is real. What words we use to describe it depend on semantics
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u/Coollogin 6d ago
I think telepathy is real. I do not make the claim that there is not a mechanism behind it. I don't think anything is actually supernatural. There are only real things in that real things. Anything real is natural. So my claim is that there's evidence of telepathy. I think telepathy is real. What words we use to describe it depend on semantics
But what telepathy do you propose took place in this event you described? Who read whose mind? How did that result in the elephants visiting the site of the man’s death and then returning annually. Just tossing out the word “telepathy” doesn’t tell me how you are trying to explain the events.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
I think that all developed information exists as data points. And all living beings have an ability to tap into it. This explains events like this as well as things like migration where Birds no one exact place on the map to go to or monarch butterflies that take two generations to migrate. Or Savant syndrome where people know things including language and music they've never been taught. Or I want to Discovery is made in one place it is also made consecutively around the globe moments and days later on a regular basis.
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u/Coollogin 6d ago
I think that all developed information exists as data points.
That is an incredibly vague and unhelpful answer to my question. You are giving me the impression that you have no idea how the elephants knew the guy was dead (assuming they knew it), nor why they came back annually. But for some reason you threw out the word “telepathy.” Also, I don’t see how anything you’ve said debunks materialism. You’re basically saying that some species have a sense in addition to the traditionally acknowledged five, and it is via that additional sense that these species detect things that are undetectable by their traditional five senses. How does that hypothesis debunk materialism?
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u/Nordenfeldt 6d ago
So take the next step. Tell us what happened.
The elephants are telepathic? Even if that were true that doesn’t answer your problem because one of the elephants would have to have known about the man’s death to telepathically tell the others.
the elephants are telepathic and one is a necromancer? The elephants are telepathic and so was Luigi who informed them (but not his family) that he was about to die?
walk us through your working theory here.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
Yeah I'm not going to start another conversation with you unless you go to that article and substantiate your claim that in context the quote changes. Because I've read the article and that's not true. And now that you're completely called out in that conversation and look uneducated and sloppy you're going to try to come try again somewhere else. Not happening. Finish that conversation. But you can't. You backed yourself into an impossible corner
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u/Nordenfeldt 5d ago
Still trying to relitigate your embarrassing public humiliation? I already paid out how wrong you are and even provided the original source, plus link for all to see. As I said on the other thread. I was more than happy to let my words snd links stand for me.
You obviously are not, and can’t let it go. You lost, you looked stupid move on.
I’m more focused on this thread where once again, you appear to be losing and looking stupid. Now answer the question in deck.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 5d ago
Come on Oxford. Tell me what I am missing
As a theorist, when I go to meetings I often get much more out of the experimental talks. Because I often know what's going on in theory, or at least I like to think I do. I was profoundly affected by the experimental talks. In principle, we are now able to be sensitive to gravitational waves that might change a meter stick that's three kilometers long by a length equal to less than the size of atom!. It's just amazing that we have the technology to do that. While that is not actually detecting any gravitational waves, there's no technological obstructions, to going to the advanced stage. Gravitational waves may be indeed allow us a probe that might take us beyond our current state of having observations that don't lead anywhere. I was very impressed with these findings.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 5d ago edited 5d ago
You have not read the article or you are lying about it. Those are the only two options. There is no added context that changes the meaning of those last paragraphs. And let's not forget you were completely outed for so boldly encouraging me to go get that next paragraph. The one that you didn't know didn't exist because you haven't read it and I have. Or you have and are lying about whats in there. And now you're trying to use a bunch of words too back pedal.
You can't hang in a conversation like this. You have bad habits and say sloppy things. You show signs of being uneducated at every level. But I will offer you a challenge that could prove me wrong.
You did bring attention to that next paragraph which doesn't exist. A very inconvenient fact for you. But you can go get any paragraph or two or three or 10 that you would like and provide that text here that you think changes the context of those last paragraphs. We both know you can't. We both know all you can do is try to scrape together some words that makes you feel like someone reading it who doesn't actually go look at the article might think maybe this guy's right. So you are banking on people doing what you have done and not actually going and reading the article. You know that what you were banking on isn't there. And that there is no additional context in the article that now helps you. From saying things you never should have said.
This is what education is all about. Putting someone in a spot where when they go carry on they can operate as an informed person and know how to handle themselves when they are not informed on the topic at hand. Your sloppy approach is very telling of your circumstances.
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u/Nordenfeldt 5d ago
You are like a particularly dim dog with a rotten bone in its teeth.
It’s a common adolescent problem: you lose an argument to make yourself look bad, and you just can’t let it go, so you keep trying to re-litigate it and re-argue it in different threads. It’s very garden variety, especially for teenagers.
I’ll measure my formal education against you and everyone you’ve ever met, by the way. I doubt you even know what my D.Phil Oxon is.
As I have told you repeatedly:
Look, I’m more than happy to let what I have said and the actual text of Krauss’s comments stand on their own merit. Anyone reading all this will know you are laughably wrong, and bloviating to try and salve your fractured ego.
All because you got high and decided to post a laughably stupid brain fart about magic elephants.
So let’s let them decide for yourself, if anyone actually reads down this far. I have no interest in hearing you continue to whine and lie and squirm to avoid just admitting you are wrong.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 5d ago
At the same time, that we had a talk from Eric Adelberger at the University of Washington, who's been trying to measure Newton's Law on small scales. You might think, who would want to measure Newton's Law on small scales? But one of the suggestions for extra dimensions is that on small scales and gravity has a different behavior. There has been some tantalizing evidence that went through the rumor mills that had suggested that in these experiments in Seattle they were seeing evidence for deviations from Newton's Theory. And Attleburger talked about some beautiful experiments. As a theorist, I'm just always amazed they can even do these experiments. And gave some new results, there are some tentative new results, which of course are not a surprise to me, that suggest that there is as yet no evidence for a deviation from Newton's Theory.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 5d ago
Many of the papers in particle physics over the last five to seven years have been involved with the idea of extra dimensions of one sort or another. And while it's a fascinating idea, but I have to say, it's looking to me like it's not yet leading anywhere. The experimental evidence against it is combining with what I see as a theoretical diffusion — a breaking off into lots of parts. That's happened with string theory. I can see it happening with extra-dimensional arguments. We're seeing that the developments from this idea which has captured the imaginations of many physicists, hasn't been compelling.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 5d ago
Right now it's clear that what we really need is some good new ideas. Fundamental physics is really at kind of a crossroads. The observations have just told us that the universe is crazy, but hasn't told us what direction the universe is crazy in. The theories have been incredibly complex and elaborate, but haven't yet made any compelling inroads. That can either be viewed as depressing or exciting. For young physicists it's exciting in the sense that it means that the field is ripe for something new.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 5d ago
The great hope for particle physics, which may be a great hope for quantum gravity, is the next large particle accelerator. We've gone 30 years without a fundamentally new accelerator that can probe a totally new regime of the sub-atomic world. We would have had it if our legislators had not been so myopic. It's amazing to think that if they hadn't killed the superconducting Super Collider it would have been already been running for ten years.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 5d ago
The Large Hadron Collider is going to come on-line next year. And one of two things could happen: It could either reveal a fascinating new window on the universe and a whole new set of phenomena that will validate or refute the current prevailing ideas in theoretical particle physics, supersymmetry etc, or it might see absolutely nothing. I'm not sure which I'm rooting for. But it is at least a hope, finally, that we may get an empirical handle that will at least constrain the wild speculation that theorists like me might make.
Such a handle comes out of the impact of the recent cosmic microwave background (CMB) studies on Inflation Theory. I read in the New York Timesthat Alan Guth was smiling, and Alan Guth was sitting next to me at the conference when I handed him the article. He was smiling, but he always smiles, so I didn't know what to make much of it, but I think that the results that came out of the cosmic microwave background (CMB) studies were twofold.
Indeed, as the Times suggested, they validate the notions of inflation. But I think that's just journalists searching for a story. Because if you look at what quantitatively has come out of the new results they're exactly consistent with the old results. Which also validate inflation. They reduce the error bars a little bit, by a factor of two. I don't know if that is astounding. But what is intriguing to me is that while everything is consistent with the simplest models, there's one area where there's a puzzle. On the largest scales, when we look out at the universe, there doesn't seem to be enough structure — not as much as inflation would predict. Now the question is, is that a statistical fluke?
That is, we live in one universe, so we're a sample of one. With a sample of one, you have what is called a large sample variance. And maybe this just means we're lucky, that we just happen to live in a universe where the number's smaller than you'd predict. But when you look at CMB map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun. Is this Copernicus coming back to haunt us? That's crazy. We're looking out at the whole universe. There's no way there should be a correlation of structure with our motion of the earth around the sun — the plane of the earth around the sun — the ecliptic. That would say we are truly the center of the universe.
The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe, or maybe the data is imply incorrect, or maybe it's telling us there's something weird about the microwave background results and that maybe, maybe there's something wrong with our theories on the larger scales. And of course as a theorist I'm certainly hoping it's the latter, because I want theory to be wrong, not right, because if it's wrong there's still work left for the rest of us.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 5d ago
Great. You have stated you are highly educated and I am an adolescent teenager. It should be very easy for you to help me learn. This is good.
What in the article are you talking about? I am fine with your summary or direct quotes. However, it is best for you to communicate it.
I am fully willing to admit I am wrong if you will just explain what you mean specifically. If I have missed something I'm completely fine with that. Until your last reply, I thought you were just hadn't read it or didn't understand it. Especially because you asked for the next paragraph which I told you didn't exist before you linked to it.
I don't think you will be able to but if you are actually intelligent after all I am open to learning from you.
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u/soilbuilder 5d ago
"I am fully willing to admit I am wrong if you will just explain what you mean specifically."
People are consistently posting links to appropriate sources that show that you are often wrong, and you either jump to a different topic, or ignore those comments completely.
So I remain as unconvinced that you are willing to admit you are wrong as I am that elephants use telepathy.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 5d ago
I am open to and seeing that I have done that if you could please link me to such an instance
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u/Crafty_Possession_52 Atheist 6d ago
Demonstrate that the elephants did not use smell and natural calendar methods of determining where and when to go.
This is before I even confirm that the story is true.
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u/TheRealAutonerd Agnostic Atheist 6d ago
This is right up there with the story that Steve Jobs (or was it Wozniak?) said "OH GOD" or "OH WOW" when he died, therefore proving he saw the afterlife and verifying god's existence.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
We know what he experienced to a degree from those who experienced it and didn't die. The report. Eternal love, past loved ones and so on. Very common. Is it real or from his mind. Seems he thought it was real. Seems you don't. So we are 50/50.
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u/TheRealAutonerd Agnostic Atheist 6d ago
We know no such thing. We know people hallucinate in times of stress. Convenient that their view of the afterlife is what's presented in fiction, media, and religion -- bright light, beckoning loved ones, etc.
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u/the2bears Atheist 6d ago
So we are 50/50.
Add probabilities to the list of things you misunderstand but are still willing to provide an opinion on.
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u/Appropriate-Price-98 cultural Buddhist, Atheist 6d ago
Nowhere in this said how often the man visited the herd.
His Wiki page says he died of a heart attack. Lawrence Anthony - Wikipedia. Pretty suddenly, if you ask me.
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u/Lugh_Intueri 6d ago
How do you think that is relevant
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u/Appropriate-Price-98 cultural Buddhist, Atheist 6d ago
sigh do really need to point out?
If he met them daily and suddenly went missing, what do think they would do? Search for him? Waiting outside of his house?
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u/Zeploz 6d ago
The elephants had no material way of knowing about Lawrence's passing. There were no phone call, no messages, and no visible signs for them.
The article says:
They hadn't visited the compound where Anthony lived for a year and a half,
So, what supports that they came specifically to grieve - compared to any other normal trip? The house is described as within the Reserve itself.
After this, the elephants returned again exactly one year later.
I didn't see this in the articles - is it in the videos? I'm also not sure where the '12 miles' came from - the article says 12 hours.
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u/J-Nightshade Atheist 6d ago
the elephants had no material way of knowing about Lawrence's passing. There were no phone call, no messages, and no visible signs for them.
"no material way of knowing that I can think of". You are not justified to presuppose magic every time you don't know something.
But seriously, just listen to yourslef: elephants visited one place twice, one year apart. The date of visits coinsided (kind of) with the date of death of their caretaker, a person they trusted.
Question: did elephants knew he was dead? Or they simply frequented the place regardless? Did they simply came there expecting to see him, stood there waiting and got disappointed he didn't show up? Have you calculated the chance of elephants being there by coincidence? Or maybe they decided that day: "you know, he didn't show up this time, we try one year later"? Or maybe they came, realized he must have died and then came one year later to mourn. Elephants are intelligent you know, they are capable of tracking time.
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u/thebigeverybody 6d ago
You don't know how science works: this doesn't confirm anything, it's a claim that needs to be investigated, confirmed and then explained.
And, looking at your comments in this thread, you're pretty clearly a troll.
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u/noodlyman 6d ago edited 6d ago
By far the most probable explanation is that the story is not entirely accurate. It seems to originate in a book by his wife.
How can I tell the whole thing is but made up?
Had the elephants visited on other occasions? We're not told. Ie, it could be a coincidence.
The story suggests the house was different from usual, with people coming and going. Maybe it sounded different to the elephants.
It being annual isn't too much of a stretch. Lots of animals have built in clocks or calendars, including cicadas who emerge from the ground on the same day after 13 years.
So my tentative hypothesis might be:
Elephants arrived at the house either by chance, because of a difference in sounds, or because they noticed he was missing and knew where his home was.
Subsequent annual visits require only an intelligence and memory, things we know elephants have.
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u/5minArgument 6d ago
Not sure if atheism is can be described or defined by one or another notion of materialism.
Yes there is a physical world, so in that sense the word “materialism” can be used to analyze matter along with space-time. That doesn’t mean it provides answers to all present and future questions on the nature of reality and consciousness.
Elephants are quite intelligent and evolved. They appear to be highly conscious. One could randomly say that consciousness has more properties than we are presently aware of.
They may have picked up a scent. They may have gotten an email. For whatever reason, this argument does not negate a physical explanation.
If true, it simply suggests a presently unknown facet.
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u/Aftershock416 6d ago edited 6d ago
Until you've established where the elephant herd moved as a general rule, how regularly he visited to begin with and whether or not these events were accurately documented... you haven't debunked anything, just engaged in pointless speculation.
It's hardly surprising that highly intelligent beings such as elephants would go looking for someone who visits them regularly and then go missing or any one of a dozen other "materialistic" explanations.
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u/Visible_Ticket_3313 6d ago
I'm confident the incredibly intelligent pachyderms with six foot noses and ears the size of dinning tables noticed something was wrong with one of their favorite humans. They can smell people over enormous distances, and we know they honour their dead.
This is a sweet story about elephants. It has nothing to do with materialism.
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u/EdgeCzar 6d ago
I like elephants very much, but, if they're gods...then they gotta go. C'mon everyone. Grab your rifles. It's time to get to work.
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u/notaedivad 6d ago
Are you attempting to assert that memory doesn't work?
Seriously!?
You've never remembered anyone or anything?
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u/Kevidiffel Strong atheist, hard determinist, anti-apologetic 6d ago
Materialism is Debunked
Let's have a bit of fun, shall we?
Let's say this actually debunks materialism. What non-material mechanism would best explain this behavior?
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u/Literally_-_Hitler Atheist 6d ago
How in the hell can you go from one anecdotal story to all of materialism is debunked? That is a claim that requires a much higher level of evidence .
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u/acerbicsun 6d ago
So you're losing your religion, then your faith is restored in one month's time.
Perhaps reflect while looking at your negative karma: "why do I do this?" What am I trying to prove to myself and others?
I think perhaps you really want there to be something more to this life. I don't know. It's your path but I think the answers you seek should come from you, not others.
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u/flightoftheskyeels 6d ago
Once again you face the mechanism problem. If I were to be generous and concede that this event is being caused by an unknown phenomena, there's still no reason to believe that phenomena is non material, especially in the absence of any theories regarding it's nature. For Christ's sake, it would be easier to believe this means elephants are sapient as opposed to psychic.
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u/onomatamono 6d ago
Elephants have an acute sense of smell that is twice as sensitive as a blood hound. It’s an ability that allows the elephants to avoid enemies and find food and water over long distances, far more than 12 miles.
You are using the appeal to incredulity which is a logical fallacy. When you claimed the elephants did not get a phone call or a text message, did you believe that boosted the credibility of your baseless assertion (reality debunked or whatever) or hurt it?
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u/Savings_Raise3255 6d ago
So materialism is debunked because extremely intelligent social animals can have meaningful bonds with other social animals of a different species?
The bar really is on the floor here.
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u/soukaixiii Anti religion\ Agnostic Adeist| Gnostic Atheist|Mythicist 6d ago
I fail to see how any of this is evidence against materialism.
How did you determined the elephants didn't just notice he wasn't coming and went up looking for him?
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u/Comfortable-Dare-307 Atheist 6d ago
And? How does that disprove materialism? The elephants could probably smell that he was dying, they noticed a change of behavior and acted accordingly. And YES materialism does explain why they return every year.
Humans are very selfish thinking we are special. We're not special. Other animals feel emotion, guilt, remorse and go through the grief process. This is ALL a product of the mind, not of some magical fairy that lives in the sky. Grief explains why they go back every year. Not magic.
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u/Such_Collar3594 5d ago
The elephants had no material way of knowing about Lawrence's passing.
Of course they did. They found have heard it, smelled it, or been told about it. The CBC article can be wrong. I doubt Strombo had a team double checking sources. Far fetched? What's your explanation, magic?
What they don't have, is an immaterial way of knowing about it. If so, what was it?
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u/Autodidact2 5d ago
Elephants are amazing. They may have a sense that we lack, or it may have been a coincidence.
Your second cite offers a natural explanation, and is not about elephants.
Neither site says anything about annual visits.
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u/MajesticFxxkingEagle Atheist | Physicalist Panpsychist 5d ago
Okay? Elephants are intelligent social animals that have emotions and rituals.
What does this have to do with debunking materialism?
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u/dinglenutmcspazatron 6d ago
So the elephants had no contact with any humans for those two days, and also were not scheduled to meet lawrence for a while?
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