Materialism is Debunked

[u/Lugh_Intueri]

Lawrence Anthony, a conservationist, had a close freindship with a herd of elephant at his game reserve in Africa. He had rescued and rehabilitated them and over time, they developed a trust.

Lawrence Anthony died in 2012. Two days after the elephant herd led by the matriarch traveled 12 miles to his home. They stayed there for two days, mourning as they do their dead.

The elephants had no material way of knowing about Lawrence's passing. There were no phone call, no messages, and no visible signs for them.

After this, the elephants returned again exactly one year later.

https://www.cbc.ca/strombo/news/saying-goodbye-elephants-hold-apparent-vigil-to-mourn-their-human-friend.ht

https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/mind-blowing-power-of-love-20100925-15rl7.html

[u/Lugh_Intueri]

1. Coincidence. They just wandered over and it happened to be close to the day of his death.

Not this. They return annually

1. The people recounting the story misremembered or tolda lie. We often muddle up events close to a death and ascribe meaningful things to the death when there was no meaning.

The event is photographed

1. The elephants smelled his death. They can detect water 12 miles away.

Doesn't explain returning annually

1. Elephants are very intelligent and observant, thy may have noticed changes in his behaviour due to his health declining.

Doesn't explain returning annually

1. Elephants are sensitive to their environment and may have picked up on human behaviour at the reserve - mourning ritual or altered routines.

Doesn't explain returning annually

1. Crying or changes in vocal tones, changes in gatherings picked up by vibrations in the ground could be linked to 5.

Doesn't explain returning annually

1. Elephants transmit information socially between groups; other elephants could have passed on the message that he had died.

Doesn't explain returning annually

1. If there was a routine that Anthony had with the elephants that nobody else knew about, they might have been keeping the routine.

Doesn't explain returning annually

I9. If the elephants feeding schedule was chanhged, again, perhaps others didn't know about this, but the elephants would pick up on a change in feeding schedule.

Doesn't explain returning annually

1. (Just to round it up to 10) people perceive there to be a connection because we think we're the centre of the universe. But we're not.

A quote by Lawrence Krauss

But when you look at CMB map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun. Is this Copernicus coming back to haunt us? That's crazy. We're looking out at the whole universe. There's no way there should be a correlation of structure with our motion of the earth around the sun - the plane of the earth around the sun - the ecliptic. That would say we are truly the center of the universe. The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe, or maybe the data is (s)imply incorrect, or maybe it's telling us there's something weird about the microwave background results and that maybe, maybe there's something wrong with our theories on the larger scales.

[u/I_Am_Not_A_Number_2 → u/Lugh_Intueri]

Where does it say they returned annually?

If they did return annually this isn't a demonstration of the supernatural either. Its a ritual. Many animals have grieving rituals. Elephants visit the bones of their dead relatives. What do you think this demonstrates?

A quote by Lawrence Krauss

So what? An appeal to authority gets you nowhere. Do you even know what it is you're quoting in context?

Shall we go to the words of the man himself... You can find his article here but I'll quote for your ease.

"The notion that anyone in the 21*^st* century could take seriously the notion that the sun orbits the Earth, or that the Earth is the center of the universe, is almost unbelievable... the question I had to face after discovering this ***abuse of my words* was what to do about it. The best thing we can all do when faced by nonsense like that, or equivalent silliness promoted by biblical fundamentalists who claim that science supports a literal interpretation of the Bible, is to ignore it in public forums, and not shine any light on the authors of this trash."

So there you have it. Perhaps you will stop spreading trash now? He also suggests this, which I'll leave you with. It seems fitting.

"It is, after all, impossible in the modern world to shield everyone from nonsense and stupidity. What we can do is provide the tools, through our educational system, for people to be able to tell sense from nonsense. These tools include the scientific method, skeptical questioning, empirical evidence, verifying sources, etc."

[u/Lugh_Intueri → u/I_Am_Not_A_Number_2]

So what? An appeal to authority gets you nowhere. Do you even know what it is you're quoting in context?

Shall we go to the words of the man himself... You can find his article here but I'll quote for your ease.

"The notion that anyone in the 21*^st* century could take seriously the notion that the sun orbits the Earth, or that the Earth is the center of the universe, is almost unbelievable... the question I had to face after discovering this ***abuse of my words* was what to do about it. The best thing we can all do when faced by nonsense like that, or equivalent silliness promoted by biblical fundamentalists who claim that science supports a literal interpretation of the Bible, is to ignore it in public forums, and not shine any light on the authors of this trash."

So there you have it. Perhaps you will stop spreading trash now? He also suggests this, which I'll leave you with. It seems fitting.

"It is, after all, impossible in the modern world to shield everyone from nonsense and stupidity. What we can do is provide the tools, through our educational system, for people to be able to tell sense from nonsense. These tools include the scientific method, skeptical questioning, empirical evidence, verifying sources, etc."

I no exactly what I'm quoting and the context. And it is not an appeal to authority. We know that when you look at the entire observable universe the CMB map corresponds exactly to Earth and it's ecliptic around the sun. The plane of our solar system.

That's the fun of Lawrence krause's comment. He put himself out there. He tied his hands. He took a firm position that either the numbers we were getting back were wrong, our models were wrong, or the universe is telling us Earth is actually at the center. And the time since we've sent an entire another mission to space with the playing satellite and confirmed these numbers and the existence of this relationship between the CMB map and Earth and it's ecliptic.

Two different people with two different equipments and two different approaches together in the information have gotten the exact same results after spending billions of dollars to confirm this. So we are now down to two options because Mr Krause did indeed tie his hands which I very much appreciate.

He thought it would be very exciting to find out our models were wrong. This is quite a long time ago now. And he is backed off that idea. But also trying to back off the idea that Earth is at the center of the universe. But offering no new explanation. Just wishing he had never said it at all. Because he's come to enjoy our models the way they are and not want to accept her that the center. That's just too bad. Because he gave himself three options. And now he doesn't want to choose any of them as His most likely answer. If you would at least present some new alternative option that he had missed that would be a little more acceptable. But he certainly is unable to do that either.

That's the fun when somebody ties their hands like that. He understood the ramification of the data but was pretty sure science would offer an out in the future. But it didn't. And now he wants to back out of it. Too bad

[u/Laura-ly → u/Lugh_Intueri]

Animals are not dumb and elephants in particular are quite intelligent. The theist idea that humans are the height of intelligence and therefore anything animals do that is smart has to have a supernatural explanation is, well, utterly ridiculous. The 2004 tsunami in Indian Ocean near Sumatra caused an 8.8 earthquake which the elephants felt in the mountains of Sumatra 20 minutes before the wave hit the shore and killed 230,000 people. Were the elephants magical? Was it supernatural? No, they have incredibly sensitive feet.

There are several animals who have ritualistic behavior when their companions die. Chimpanzees, crows, dolphins and yes, elephants have funerals. Elephants have been seen putting branches over the top of their dead.

I might remind you, humans are animals. We're smarter than other animals but we're not the end-all, be-all of intelligence.

Speaking of that tsunami and materialism. Why would your god wave his magic wand over the elephants you speak of but ignore a tsunami that would kill 230,000 people in one day?