It originally started from when sailors where eating on ships and they would put their elbows on the table to keep their dish from sliding during rougher seas. As this became a habit for them they would also do it while not out to sea and at pubs and such. Well sailors didn't have the best reputation for being clean, and well-mannered so non-sailors didn't want to be associated with them and thus would not put their elbow on tables. Hence where this rule came from!
Edit - After posting in /r/askhistorians earlier today asking about this, it appears this can be traced back way further than I thought possible https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3d4u5k/what_are_the_origins_of_not_placing_ones_elbows/, other answers have included farmers being dirty from the fields, not wanting to unbalance the table that was being used to eat on since people were on one side, royalty not wanting to have people hiding concealed daggers and such underneath the table, not taking up that room on the table, and many more as can be read below. All in all this has been a very interesting read from my perspective! Thanks for any of the contributions that could help shed light on this socially unacceptable item.
The top post TL;DR: It goes back further than maritime dining. This was a defensive pose too keep people from stealing your food. Since it was common practice with lower classes and the poor, the upper classes sought to separate themselves from the hostile practice.
It was an individual Chief who told me when I had my elbows on the table because he didn't want his sailors to be setting a bad example for non-naval personnel.
I was literally expecting the ending to be, "one day, a non-sailor whose elbows were on the table was accused of being a sailor and summarily executed with a seaman's sword. Ever since that day, all non-sailors began advocating for the discontinued use of their elbows on the table while typing 'OP did not use the /serious tag'."
Actually the rule dates from the middle ages, and is an advisory in manuals of etiquette (along with not wiping ones nose on the table cloth).
Theories are abound as to what significance is (or was) actually attributed to having ones elbows on the table. The most popular theories are:
Insulting the wealth and status of a host. It may have been construed that putting ones elbows on the table was to indirectly suggest that the host could not afford to flood the table with food, thus insulting their wealth, and by extension, their status
Stance. When you put your elbows on a table you automatically hunch over, or at least move in closer to the table. This could be taken in two different ways. First you may come across as angered, displeased, or violent, as hunching is a natural characteristic of being in the aforementioned moods, as is drawing closer to someone so as to invade their personal space. Second the suggestion is made that you yourself may be boorish, poorly educated and therefore not worth of your status as our ancient ancestors are (and were) often depicted hunched over food eating like animals.
Additional fun fact:
Manuals of etiquette that featured rules such as "do not steal the cutlery" and "do not wipe your nose on the table cloth" were actually aimed at the upper classes of the medieval age, by modern standards most medieval people of similar status would have atrocious table manners.
Edit: For those of you who have heard different reasoning behind the no elbows on the table rule, please do share! While the timings of my post are factually accurate, the reasonings are merely common speculation by historians. It's likely we'll never know the true answer, but reading the other reasons is fascinating!
I read a 1700s etiquette manual once, and it specifically said not to burp or "break wind" at the table-- and if you had to, at least turn to the side and do it discreetly. Also not to eat off other people's plates. I guess if people did that, they did need a manual.
Don't forget that's the 1700's. In the 12-1400's when these things were becoming popular they must have had some strange rules in, things that we take for granted now.
This makes a lot of sense. Where you position an empty glass or how you leave cutlery on a plate are all non-verbal indicators to servants signalling when you are finished with a plate or need more to drink.
I'd imagine it's also a status thing. Like you know somebody's high class because they know and abide rules of etiquette they were taught when young. If it was in an etiquette book that you had to walk backwards with your hands in the air when entering all buildings, you'd bet high class people would do it without question because it signals to others that they are more educated and wealthy than they are.
Though this is entirely a guess on my part and based on what I know of the way high born people in Game of Thrones try to pay strict attention to how they carry themselves because they have to separate themselves from the low born peasants.
Oh it's most definitely a status thing. Etiquette was (and is) a massive indicator of social status. Back in medieval England, if you could afford the tutoring and the books you were definitely someone worth knowing.
I remember reading Chuck Palahniuk's book, Survivor, it has all these really detailed rules of etiquette that the main character knows. Assuming that these were all actual rules, it was conveyed as a way to make those of low status look foolish. The rules were almost always outside of common sense, and needlessly intricate so that you would only get it right if you had been taught. It was a really good read.
In medieval Europe (where many of these etiquette rules were developed) pissing off the wrong people could have disastrous consequences. If you were a low level lord trying to impress a social superior knowing your etiquette could not only be a make or break, but could be the difference between life and death.
Charlotte Biltekoff, a UC Davis assistant professor, explains so many things we do today are based on very old traditions.
"It certainly arises from a long history beginning in the late middle ages when we started to internalize lots and lots of codes about how to hold our bodies," said Charlotte.
Yes, she said we're following rules from the middle ages!
"Shame and embarrassment sort of emerged in that time and a much more impulsive culture became much more self-contained and self-controlled and self-conscious and a lot of the manners in our culture emerged from this time period," said Charlotte.
They were also battling disease and it was important to show you were healthy.
"So, by not leaning on our elbows one of the most important things that we communicate is that we're strong enough to hold our bodies erect and that we're healthy enough to have proper carriage and that we understand the rules of comportment and have enough self-control and self-possession to maintain that kind of posture at the table," said Charlotte.
And Charlotte says that even though we're a long way from the middle ages, the rules still play a social role today.
"If you put your elbows on the table you can lean from one side to the other and take up more space than is acceptable," said Charlotte.
Charlotte says manners help us communicate what we feel about ourselves and how we fit in the broader social order. "It's still very important in our culture to communicate self-control, willpower and restraint," said Charlotte. We are how we eat not just what we eat!
And even though things have relaxed, Emily Post says the only time you can put your elbows on the table is when you're at home and sick.
"This might be a fine point, but doing this seems a whole lot different from resting one elbow on the table for example...are there shades of gray?" said Charlotte. "Well,some etiquette writers suggest that if you have so mastered the form of self-possession -- if you have so convinced people around you that you are so convinced and self-controlled you might delicately rest your elbow on the table."
He probably made it up, or heard it from someone who made it up.
There's a chance it's true, of course, but most of those "this originiated from a Chinese brothel in the Han Dynasty!" stories are usually full of shit.
I heard it was because farmhands would wash there hands but not all the way up to the elbow. The elbows would still be really dirty, so rather than muck up the dinner table with dirt it became a thing to not put elbows on the table.
Ya, this is the one I heard as well. Doesn't really matter too much though since they both end up being "people with dirty elbows kept putting that shit on the table near food and, since then, elbows are assumed to be dirty and not to be put by food" or some variant.
TIL, I always thought it was more of a primal/territorial thing, like you are trying to protect your food by keeping your elbows on the table from the others around you, thus looking like an animal by doing so and not proper
It's amazing how old practices become so ingrained into society. If you ask anyone why putting elbows on the table is rude they will just say "because it is." Like some sort of stupid mantra people chant to justify their unjustifiable behavior.
I have heard two explanations of why this is considered poor table manners. First is that pirates at sea would eat with their elbows on the table on order to keep their food in place while the ship rocked. This would carry over whenever they were eating on land. The general debauchery that takes place amongst pirates led to common people disliking anything pirates do. So if you have the table manners of a pirate, then you are unworthy of eating amongst gentlemen. The other explanation I have heard was that many people grew up poor and never had a large table to eat at. Keeping elbows off the table allows more room for everyone so it is considered being polite to your fellow eaters. I haven't looked into either of these claims so they may be b.s, but I like to believe the pirate one is true.
I thought it was because people's elbows was often dirty so you wanna keep them off your table cloth. And today people's elbows tend to be clean so it's not a problem anymore do it as much as you like.
He defiantly kept his elbows on the table. "No" he said, quietly, but firmly. Slowly, one by one, the other patrons stood and began clapping. The waiter began to apologize profusely, and OP received a free meal. This is $101 percent true and they now hang OP's picture on the wall, as well as re-named the restaurant after him.
No. This never happened. I 100% guarantee this isn't enough to get kicked of any restaurant anywhere. If it happened while not wearing a shirt maybe that would be enough.
I read that it was a practice that started in the Victorian/Industrial eras, where the vast majority of working class men held down 'dirty' jobs, and every street and building used to be covered in soot and shit. Men would come home from the mine or wherever caked in grime, and so the wives would tell them to keep their elbows off the table to keep the food and cutlery clean.
This is a distinct possibility. What I really wish would come into vogue is giant, full body bibs for adults. I can't tell you how many shirts I've ruined with bacon grease or olive oil...
I had no idea this was a thing. I though it was just to keep your nasty mouth wiper off the surface where everyone's food is. My napkin is usually on my lap wadded into a ball or twisted up like a rope.
I was taught it's good etiquette because "nobody wants to see your dirty napkin on the table". I was raised to do so, so out of habit, it's in my lap every meal. But I don't notice if anyone else does it.
It's such a habit for me that when I read the comment on it, I truthfully didn't even register it as something one does or does not do. It just happens. Sit down at restaurant/meal with napkins. Napkin goes on lap. Done. Immediate, pavlovian.
Also, a matter of space availability. If you got your napkin in the table, your glass of water, your preferred drink for the evening, your cutlery and probably your bread, you got no room for the napkin.. Put your dirty napkin on your lap.
My napkin doesn't get dirty unless I'm eating something like wings, in which I'm going to need a lot more than one napkin and I sure as hell ain't keeping them all in my lap.
It's not there to catch food, it's there to use without drawing attention it. I'm a super sloppy eater when it's hand food like Burgers or Tacos. I do this because looking at someone's dirty napkin near your food is gross
I learned manners in Germany where I was taught that you keep your napkin to the side of the plate. Now, when a waiter comes along and takes my napkin, unfolds it, and puts in my lap for me (weird), I immediately take it out and say, "no, thank you. I'd rather it be up here where I will use it."
Why is that a thing? Do people normally eat like Cookie Monster?
I thought it was to make conversation round a rectangle table easier. if people have their elbows on the table it can be hard to see past them at other people who you might want to listen/talk to.
Before a trip to France, someone told me that it was preferable to have your arms on the table than hidden below the table, because hands under the table is considered rude there. I still don't know if that's true
It is true, just forearms not elbows though. But hands under the table is way worse than elbows on the table.
I think it comes to the way the table is prepared. English style table is usually raw with table mats, while French style table is covered with tablecloth almost reaching the floor.
Idk about this one. If your at a pretty roomy table and its really sturdy, yea go for it, but as someone who's siblings would do this all the time when we were kids and bump you because their elbows are further out, I'd say think of who's next to you. If the table isn't completely sturdy, most movements also move the table a bit which can be bothersome to others as well.
Like I said though, if the conditions are fine, it's fine.
Regardless of how it started, the rule persists because it's hard to deliver food to a table or to serve and pass dishes if someone is hunched over the table and blocking access.
I was called out on this while on a date, she was serious. That was our first and last date. HOW DO YOU EAT A BURRITO WITHOUT PUTTING YOUR ELBOWS ON THE TABLE? PLS.
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u/ron_e123 Jul 13 '15
Putting elbows on the table while eating. Does anyone really give a fuck?