It originally started from when sailors where eating on ships and they would put their elbows on the table to keep their dish from sliding during rougher seas. As this became a habit for them they would also do it while not out to sea and at pubs and such. Well sailors didn't have the best reputation for being clean, and well-mannered so non-sailors didn't want to be associated with them and thus would not put their elbow on tables. Hence where this rule came from!
Edit - After posting in /r/askhistorians earlier today asking about this, it appears this can be traced back way further than I thought possible https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3d4u5k/what_are_the_origins_of_not_placing_ones_elbows/, other answers have included farmers being dirty from the fields, not wanting to unbalance the table that was being used to eat on since people were on one side, royalty not wanting to have people hiding concealed daggers and such underneath the table, not taking up that room on the table, and many more as can be read below. All in all this has been a very interesting read from my perspective! Thanks for any of the contributions that could help shed light on this socially unacceptable item.
The top post TL;DR: It goes back further than maritime dining. This was a defensive pose too keep people from stealing your food. Since it was common practice with lower classes and the poor, the upper classes sought to separate themselves from the hostile practice.
It was an individual Chief who told me when I had my elbows on the table because he didn't want his sailors to be setting a bad example for non-naval personnel.
I was literally expecting the ending to be, "one day, a non-sailor whose elbows were on the table was accused of being a sailor and summarily executed with a seaman's sword. Ever since that day, all non-sailors began advocating for the discontinued use of their elbows on the table while typing 'OP did not use the /serious tag'."
Actually the rule dates from the middle ages, and is an advisory in manuals of etiquette (along with not wiping ones nose on the table cloth).
Theories are abound as to what significance is (or was) actually attributed to having ones elbows on the table. The most popular theories are:
Insulting the wealth and status of a host. It may have been construed that putting ones elbows on the table was to indirectly suggest that the host could not afford to flood the table with food, thus insulting their wealth, and by extension, their status
Stance. When you put your elbows on a table you automatically hunch over, or at least move in closer to the table. This could be taken in two different ways. First you may come across as angered, displeased, or violent, as hunching is a natural characteristic of being in the aforementioned moods, as is drawing closer to someone so as to invade their personal space. Second the suggestion is made that you yourself may be boorish, poorly educated and therefore not worth of your status as our ancient ancestors are (and were) often depicted hunched over food eating like animals.
Additional fun fact:
Manuals of etiquette that featured rules such as "do not steal the cutlery" and "do not wipe your nose on the table cloth" were actually aimed at the upper classes of the medieval age, by modern standards most medieval people of similar status would have atrocious table manners.
Edit: For those of you who have heard different reasoning behind the no elbows on the table rule, please do share! While the timings of my post are factually accurate, the reasonings are merely common speculation by historians. It's likely we'll never know the true answer, but reading the other reasons is fascinating!
I read a 1700s etiquette manual once, and it specifically said not to burp or "break wind" at the table-- and if you had to, at least turn to the side and do it discreetly. Also not to eat off other people's plates. I guess if people did that, they did need a manual.
Don't forget that's the 1700's. In the 12-1400's when these things were becoming popular they must have had some strange rules in, things that we take for granted now.
This makes a lot of sense. Where you position an empty glass or how you leave cutlery on a plate are all non-verbal indicators to servants signalling when you are finished with a plate or need more to drink.
I'd imagine it's also a status thing. Like you know somebody's high class because they know and abide rules of etiquette they were taught when young. If it was in an etiquette book that you had to walk backwards with your hands in the air when entering all buildings, you'd bet high class people would do it without question because it signals to others that they are more educated and wealthy than they are.
Though this is entirely a guess on my part and based on what I know of the way high born people in Game of Thrones try to pay strict attention to how they carry themselves because they have to separate themselves from the low born peasants.
Oh it's most definitely a status thing. Etiquette was (and is) a massive indicator of social status. Back in medieval England, if you could afford the tutoring and the books you were definitely someone worth knowing.
I remember reading Chuck Palahniuk's book, Survivor, it has all these really detailed rules of etiquette that the main character knows. Assuming that these were all actual rules, it was conveyed as a way to make those of low status look foolish. The rules were almost always outside of common sense, and needlessly intricate so that you would only get it right if you had been taught. It was a really good read.
In medieval Europe (where many of these etiquette rules were developed) pissing off the wrong people could have disastrous consequences. If you were a low level lord trying to impress a social superior knowing your etiquette could not only be a make or break, but could be the difference between life and death.
Charlotte Biltekoff, a UC Davis assistant professor, explains so many things we do today are based on very old traditions.
"It certainly arises from a long history beginning in the late middle ages when we started to internalize lots and lots of codes about how to hold our bodies," said Charlotte.
Yes, she said we're following rules from the middle ages!
"Shame and embarrassment sort of emerged in that time and a much more impulsive culture became much more self-contained and self-controlled and self-conscious and a lot of the manners in our culture emerged from this time period," said Charlotte.
They were also battling disease and it was important to show you were healthy.
"So, by not leaning on our elbows one of the most important things that we communicate is that we're strong enough to hold our bodies erect and that we're healthy enough to have proper carriage and that we understand the rules of comportment and have enough self-control and self-possession to maintain that kind of posture at the table," said Charlotte.
And Charlotte says that even though we're a long way from the middle ages, the rules still play a social role today.
"If you put your elbows on the table you can lean from one side to the other and take up more space than is acceptable," said Charlotte.
Charlotte says manners help us communicate what we feel about ourselves and how we fit in the broader social order. "It's still very important in our culture to communicate self-control, willpower and restraint," said Charlotte. We are how we eat not just what we eat!
And even though things have relaxed, Emily Post says the only time you can put your elbows on the table is when you're at home and sick.
"This might be a fine point, but doing this seems a whole lot different from resting one elbow on the table for example...are there shades of gray?" said Charlotte. "Well,some etiquette writers suggest that if you have so mastered the form of self-possession -- if you have so convinced people around you that you are so convinced and self-controlled you might delicately rest your elbow on the table."
He probably made it up, or heard it from someone who made it up.
There's a chance it's true, of course, but most of those "this originiated from a Chinese brothel in the Han Dynasty!" stories are usually full of shit.
I heard it was because farmhands would wash there hands but not all the way up to the elbow. The elbows would still be really dirty, so rather than muck up the dinner table with dirt it became a thing to not put elbows on the table.
Ya, this is the one I heard as well. Doesn't really matter too much though since they both end up being "people with dirty elbows kept putting that shit on the table near food and, since then, elbows are assumed to be dirty and not to be put by food" or some variant.
TIL, I always thought it was more of a primal/territorial thing, like you are trying to protect your food by keeping your elbows on the table from the others around you, thus looking like an animal by doing so and not proper
It's amazing how old practices become so ingrained into society. If you ask anyone why putting elbows on the table is rude they will just say "because it is." Like some sort of stupid mantra people chant to justify their unjustifiable behavior.
I've heard almost exactly this, except one difference. During the time period when Shanghaiing was commonplace, putting your elbows on the table was a sign that a guy was a sailor and therefore a better candidate for kidnapping.
Also, when you're advertising your nautical skill in public via elbows on the table, you increase your likelihood of getting Shanghaied- bludgeoned unconscious to awake finding yourself on a boat to China to serve as free labor.
I have heard two explanations of why this is considered poor table manners. First is that pirates at sea would eat with their elbows on the table on order to keep their food in place while the ship rocked. This would carry over whenever they were eating on land. The general debauchery that takes place amongst pirates led to common people disliking anything pirates do. So if you have the table manners of a pirate, then you are unworthy of eating amongst gentlemen. The other explanation I have heard was that many people grew up poor and never had a large table to eat at. Keeping elbows off the table allows more room for everyone so it is considered being polite to your fellow eaters. I haven't looked into either of these claims so they may be b.s, but I like to believe the pirate one is true.
I thought it was because people's elbows was often dirty so you wanna keep them off your table cloth. And today people's elbows tend to be clean so it's not a problem anymore do it as much as you like.
I have heard two explanations of why this is considered poor table manners. First is that astronauts in space would eat with their elbows on the table on order to keep their food in place when there was no gravity. This would carry over whenever they were eating on Earth. The general debauchery that takes place amongst astronauts led to common people disliking anything astronauts do. So if you have the table manners of a astronaut, then you are unworthy of eating amongst gentlemen. The other explanation I have heard was that many people grew up poor and never had a large table to eat at. Keeping elbows off the table allows more room for everyone so it is considered being polite to your fellow eaters. I haven't looked into either of these claims so they may be b.s, but I like to believe the astronaut one is true.
He defiantly kept his elbows on the table. "No" he said, quietly, but firmly. Slowly, one by one, the other patrons stood and began clapping. The waiter began to apologize profusely, and OP received a free meal. This is $101 percent true and they now hang OP's picture on the wall, as well as re-named the restaurant after him.
No. This never happened. I 100% guarantee this isn't enough to get kicked of any restaurant anywhere. If it happened while not wearing a shirt maybe that would be enough.
I read that it was a practice that started in the Victorian/Industrial eras, where the vast majority of working class men held down 'dirty' jobs, and every street and building used to be covered in soot and shit. Men would come home from the mine or wherever caked in grime, and so the wives would tell them to keep their elbows off the table to keep the food and cutlery clean.
I heard someplace it's because centuries before us good hygiene wasn't as common as today so they'd keep their arms down by their sides as much as possible.
It's because it excludes people from the conversation, you put your right elbow on the table and the person to your right is blocked out by your arm and shoulder. They then have to lean far forward blocking out the person the right of them
I heard that elbow on table is acceptable before and after the meal. And leaning forward to show interest in the conversation can even be considered polite.
But during the meal, when utensils are in use it is rude to take up more table space with you elbows and can give off the impression of protecting or hunching over your food. Too much interest in the food instead of the company you are with can be seen as rude and unrefined.
In the old days it was considered "bad" if one had enough room on a dinner table for their elbows instead of there being food.
Old wives tale, as far as i know it hasn't been set in stone by anyone so take it with a grain of salt. I'm part french so it probably stems from there and applied to the so coveted "upper class".
There was literally just an askreddit post about this. Basically having your elbows on the table is associated with you defending your food to stop it from being stolen which is viewed as you not trusting the people your with, which is seen as rude if it's a polite setting
Wat? Every fancy restaurant I've been to doesn't give a damn what you do. Is this some pretentious sorta place? I went to a 5 star french restaurant and another party had a guy in a Hawaiian shirt...
I've been told that it was an insult because it's showing that there's enough room on the table to put your elbows, so there's not enough food/hospitality.
Personally I think it's a load of shit. I'll put my elbows wherever the fuck I want.
Because it's the most comfortable way to sit at the table when having a meal, so they have to remove it to make the meal as uncomfortable as possible. Don't you see??
When I was at Colonial Williamsburg or (or maybe it was Jamestown) as a kid one of the tour guides told us that many "tables" in the 17th century or so were basically planks of wood balanced precariously on sawhorses. Putting your weight on one end of the table with your elbows would knock it over and fuck up the meal.
People that do that hold their food up in the air. You're not supposed to keep it held at your face hight. You don't realise it, but if you look at someone doing that in a resturant, they look sloppy as fuck.
I would've never known it even was a social issue if it wasn't for a pizza hut commercial. I've never been told to take my elbows off the table and evidently have never been at a fancy enough restaurant for it to matter.
I've always heard it's because most higher class people would be served their meals and it would be rude to have your arms in the way of someone trying to serve you your plate.
I call bullshit. I've ate at numerous 3 star restaurants and always put my elbows on the tables, get drunk and loud and never once came close to being kicked out. Please name this restaurant
No one is going to see this, but there is also a different theory. In many households, tables would be smaller and with large families trying to fit in it, putting your elbows on it would create less space, thus resulting in a rude gesture
That was a bad fancy restaurant then... A high end restaurants goal for service is to be available but not intrusive, to anticipate the customers needs, and to make the whole experience comfortable and enjoyable for the diner. Provided you meet any dress code they may have, and don't disturb the other diners, your table manners are none of their business.
Wait so fancy restaurants actually enforce those bullshit rules? I just thought the people sitting with you would judge you and the restaurant wouldn't care.
Jesus people, you've all got it wrong. It's not about offending the host or being associated with the Navy.
If you're sitting really close to someone (like in, say, a banquet hall) and you put your elbows on the table, you're all up in their shit. You'll probably push their plate around or accidentally set your elbow down on their fork. and even if there is room for one person to do that the person next to them probably won't also have the room, so we just made it a rule.
If you're arms are on the table people don't think you're a sailor, they just think you're a dick.
I've been told that I sometimes eat like an ex-con. I'll have my elbows on the table, usually my left hand kinda wrapped around the plate to "protect" my food. But you would too if you had grown up in my house! Just kidding I grew up lower-middle class and there was plenty of Panburger Partner and Kool-Aid to go around.
This was an etiquette rule not observed by my immediate family, and therefore not taught to me as a young child. My first time flying down alone to visit my grandparents in the south I put my elbows on the table at dinner and was promptly stabbed in the elbow by my grandpa with his fork without warning. I don't know why I never looked up the origin of that rule, it never made sense to me. I asked my grandpa why, he just grumbled about it being rude and uncivilized, but never why it was considered so.
Though it might have roots in history, I always saw it as a posture thing. You hunch when your elbows are on the table. Hunching is generally unsightly and in a fancy restaurant, manners are key.
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u/TheKandyCinema Jul 13 '15
I never understood why that was so rude. I did that once in a fancy restaurant and almost got kicked out.