Preliminary investigation confirms Russian missile caused Azerbaijan Airlines crash

[u/DomesticErrorist22]

https://www.euronews.com/2024/12/26/exclusive-preliminary-investigation-confirms-russian-missile-over-grozny-caused-aktau-cras

[u/defroach84]

The fact that they jammed the gps, refused them an airport to land in, and then told them to fly over the sea, seems like they definitely wanted it to crash into the water so that it would be much easier to cover up.

Instead, they now have all the evidence, and it's out there in the open immediately.

Edit: changed radar to gps.

[u/Junior_Bear_2715 → u/defroach84]

However I am afraid Russia will still pressure people on this issue to cover up. Kazakh officials already arrested a blogger who filmed plane crash for example, what was the reason for arresting him though?

I got a reply for my question:

"You don't understand. Sarsenov was reportedly at the crash scene and, despite the area being cordoned off by authorities, used a drone and a mobile phone to capture footage. You cannot allow unofficial personnel or civilians to crowd the space of a crash, Russia would use this to send 95 randoms with drones to fly around it for 3 months until the wreck was taken over by slavic squatters."

[u/BenjiSBRK → u/Junior_Bear_2715]

I mean, they're currently invading a country, I don't think they care about the public opinion on gunning down a commercial airplane.

[u/Euan_whos_army → u/BenjiSBRK]

But maybe countries that are currently neutral on Russia will now start to avoid airspace controlled by Russia. Particularly Turkish Airlines, if they were to now avoid flying in Russian airspace, it would be a serious barrier for Russians access to Europe.

[u/737900ER → u/Euan_whos_army]

It will also be the insurers and the lessors putting pressure on their operators not to fly in Russian airspace.

[u/mferly → u/737900ER]

I imagine planes being shot out of the sky would be very bad for business. Russia is squeezing her own neck.

[u/fireinthesky7 → u/Euan_whos_army]

If they weren't already doing that after Russia shot down the Malaysian Airlines 777, I doubt this will make a difference.

[u/Euan_whos_army → u/fireinthesky7]

No airlines stopped after MH17, they avoided the conflict zone though. But it now appears that this sort of incident is possible over Russian controlled airspace far from the front line in Ukraine.

[u/AnarbLanceLee → u/fireinthesky7]

Slight correction, it was Malaysian Airlines MH17, but the plane itself is Boeing 777

[u/JerseyshoreSeagull → u/AnarbLanceLee]

Yeah and they also shot down a Korean airlines flight that wandered into their airspace.

Honestly I don't care who shot the plane down. We need to help survivors and mourn the dead. The people that are neutral or pro Russia are PRO RUSSIA. There's no changing their minds unless it was the COUNTRIES PLANE.

Kazakhstan hates Russia. They're basically Ukraine.

[u/HuskerDont241 → u/JerseyshoreSeagull]

The have shot down TWO Korean Airlines planes.

[u/Bladder-Splatter → u/HuskerDont241]

Shit and S.Korea just took that? With military service mandatory I expected a stronger response but then I suppose any deployment risks Best Korea getting ideas.

[u/barbarbarbarbarbarba → u/Bladder-Splatter]

It was 1983. The idea of South Korea going to war with the USSR would have been as laughable as them invading the US.

[u/possibilistic → u/JerseyshoreSeagull]

This is the fifth time Russia has shot down a passenger airline.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902 (2 killed)

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 (All 269 killed, including Larry McDonald from the US state of Georgia's 7th congressional district. We have a highway named after him.)

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 (All 78 killed. Joint Russia-Ukraine military exercise, missile launched under Russian control.)

4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 (All 298 killed)

5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_Airlines_Flight_8243 (38 killed so far)

[u/ChiveOn904 → u/Euan_whos_army]

El Al (Israel’s main airline) has stopped flights to Moscow.

https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-835024

[u/SiarX → u/Euan_whos_army]

What, Russians are still allowed to fly to Europe?

[u/translatingrussia → u/SiarX]

They can fly to Istanbul and the UAE, then onwards to Europe if they have a visa. 

[u/SiarX → u/translatingrussia]

And why they are still granted visas?

[u/Euan_whos_army → u/SiarX]

Normal Russians do not have sanctions against them. I work with a Russian who flys into the UK every 3 weeks to work and he goes through Istanbul.

[u/Dracomortua → u/Euan_whos_army]

Lately Russia is not acting as a rational agent. This and launching a strike at Ukraine on Christmas morning. It presents as difficult public relations and suggests they have different goals:

• to pull the West into making an 'emotional' or reactive blunder of some kind

• to generate sufficient smoke & mirrors to cover up for yet more activity against conventions ('yet more war crimes')

Whenever a country does something that is obviously and clearly against their interests, we must assume that it is us that have mis-percieved their REAL objectives.

[u/polopolo05 → u/Dracomortua]

launching a strike at Ukraine on Christmas morning.

that's very rational if you are trying to cause terror. You just have to look at russias goals.

[u/malkovi4 → u/BenjiSBRK]

And I doubt that there will be any consequences...

[u/[deleted] → u/BenjiSBRK]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/IllIIlllIIIllIIlI → u/Junior_Bear_2715]

Wow, I hadn’t known they arrested someone for getting footage. Azamat Sarsenbayev

Kazakh police say that he was charged because he disobeyed their instructions to not fly his drone around the crash site. And it looks like he’s already been tried and convicted, which is very fast.

I’ve seen a few different videos of the plane post-crash. Any idea which videos were his? There is a widely circulated close-up panning around the tail and showing the holes in good detail, I wonder if it was that one. Not sure if this one was captured via drone.

Edit: probably not this one, though it’s a very good one. It looks like it was taken by someone standing next to the tail. You can also see two other people standing there filming. Unless there are more arrests for filming, I might give Kazakhstan the benefit of the doubt on convicting this blogger. There have been plenty of sources of video evidence.

[u/LockeyCheese → u/IllIIlllIIIllIIlI]

By my understanding, his video was of the plane actually going down, so that's likely the evidence used to prove it was a Russian missile.

Countries are being quick and hard with drone laws though. The US for example treats shooting down a drone the same as shooting down a light aircraft(minus the murder charges).

That also means that drone pilots get hit with light aircraft laws, and flying in a no fly zone is a good way to get a federal sentence. I assume Kazakhstan punishes this even harder, since they don't have the air defenses of the US.

Since he recorded flying in restricted air zones, a lawyer would just have to show a judge proof that the footage is taken from within the restricted space to get a summary judgement. There really isn't a defense to be had when you record yourself commiting a crime.

He most likely commited the crime, but i'm of the opinion they arrested and sentenced him this fast to obtain the footage "legally" with no beurocratic wall.

Considering he only got 10 days for something they could push heavy charges on, and considering the blogger is complaining that his footage is being used without compensation, i feel this is likely just a way the Kazakh government could gain ownership of the footage, and save a lot of paperwork and headache.

Also, if he did get footage of the missile, the video for quick answers would be worth favors from the US, and the Kazakh gov, being Russia's neighbor, could use some favors if Russian propaganda incites the citizens.

[u/kimb25_ALT → u/IllIIlllIIIllIIlI]

From the article you linked, it seems he flew a drone over the wreckage. He didn't film the actual crash.

This may be it, but I can't confirm it.

[u/MajorLazy → u/Junior_Bear_2715]

Evidence and facts don’t matter anymore.

[u/Necroluster → u/MajorLazy]

A lot of stern letters will be written, fingers will be pointed and lots of condemnation will be heard before absolutely nothing of significance happens, as usual. Russia can get away with pretty much anything, and they know it. Disgusting.

[u/Rare-Dragonfruit-488 → u/Necroluster]

Especially with a friend in the Whitehouse.

[u/dowker1 → u/Rare-Dragonfruit-488]

I was going to correct you but then I realised I consider my labrador a friend too

[u/happytobehereatall → u/Necroluster]

Be sure to get out and vote!! /s

[u/SilentBumblebee3225 → u/Junior_Bear_2715]

The official statement was that he got arrested for 10 days for ignoring directions of law enforcements.

[u/borsalamino → u/SilentBumblebee3225]

You have broken the law!

What law?

The one that says you gotta do whatever the fuck I want.

[u/leshake → u/borsalamino]

It's fine I have a permit.

Hands piece of paper

"I do what I want."

-Ron

[u/jdragon3 → u/SilentBumblebee3225]

RIP dude he's getting the full FSB special. starts with 10 days for some innocuous shit, before you know it they totally found drugs on you and now its 10 months+ instead, dont cooperate and suddenly you and any loved ones are totally terrorists and facing 10 years to life (or death)

[u/purpleefilthh → u/jdragon3]

If they find SIMS 3 on him, he's done.

[u/animecardude → u/jdragon3]

Or just shoved out a window...

[u/knifetrader → u/Junior_Bear_2715]

There's no need to cover it up. They'll say that it's ultimately Ukraine's fault since air defense wouldn't have been active in the area if it hadn't been for Ukraine's drone attacks. Sadly, that argument - bogus as it is - will sway enough people, especially in Azerbaijan, which is, of course, a country not opposed to redrawing borders by force itself.

[u/_learned_foot_ → u/knifetrader]

That will work for the international penalty sure, but what about for international commerce, the companies don’t care who did it, they care if their plane is safe or not. And not tomorrow, right now.

[u/Vlaladim → u/Junior_Bear_2715]

Maybe entering a accident scene, idk if it illegal or not but when authorities conducting investigation on accidents when im at, civilians that lingering about the area would get a warning to not overstep into the area when police are trying investigate because, you can guess, there been cases of some folks accidentally step onto evidence or try stealing something valuable off the pavement.

[u/Junior_Bear_2715 → u/Vlaladim]

Yeah that makes sense but he filmed it during the plane crash ig, so if that's the case, that's scary otherwise it would be right that he was arrested

[u/JohnHwagi → u/Vlaladim]

Yeah, in a country that doesn’t frequently arrest journalists for arbitrary reasons, I would expect this to be the most likely case and would put some faith in the government. In countries like Kazhakstan, Russia, and Belarus where the press is suppressed or controlled by the government, it’s usually best to just assume the worst right away.

[u/Undernown → u/Vlaladim]

And there is sometimes a concern with certain investigators or police personnel needing to stay anonymous so they don't get threatened by criminals.

Most likely they just wanted to have a look at the footage en get a testimony.

But I'm not familiar with the state of the Kazachstan justice system. So I'm not sure if corruption is a serious concern here.

[u/Downtown_Finance_661 → u/Junior_Bear_2715]

Kazakhs are not russian proxy, they guard country independence. Be patient, wait for official information. 

[u/USA_A-OK → u/Downtown_Finance_661]

They aren't a proxy until the populace has beef with the ruling party

https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-59894266

[u/MrBobSacamano → u/defroach84]

Won’t make a shred of difference. The downing of MH17 had a Mount Everest-sized pile of evidence, including the physical reconstruction of the plane, and Russia still vehemently denies any involvement.

[u/Beflijster → u/MrBobSacamano]

Yes but at least MH17 had political consequences. It changed the way many EU citizens view Russia. Before it, we kid ourselves that Russia is a friendly nation that we can have a normal, sane relationship with. After it, their shameless lying, incompetence and lack of remorse became harder to ignore. MH17 exposed Putin.

This meant that the EU was more united in giving Ukraine support when the war broke out. Mark Rutte played a role in this; he was prime minister of the Netherlands when MH17 happened, which killed 193 Dutch citizens. And now he is the secretary-general of NATO- this is not a coincidence.

[u/ced_rdrr → u/Beflijster]

Like sprinkling nuclear materials throghout central London wasn't enough.

[u/Bcmerr02 → u/MrBobSacamano]

They also have video of the anti-missile system, S-300 I think, that was used to down the plane being brought into the area before the crash and leaving shortly after the crash missing one of its caps because that interceptor was used. It's an embarrassment to everyone's ability to think that they deny responsibility and the Russians think the world believes them.

Edit: Definitely a Buk as others pointed out. I recall it was being towed on a flatbed, but that was it. I completely forgot about the tweet also. Unbelievable incompetence all around.

[u/dprophet32 → u/Bcmerr02]

Russia doesn't think we believe them. They know we know but even the Russian people would have questions if they just admitted it.

If anything they enjoy the fact we know and they deny it anyway. It shows the world they can do what they want and there's never any consequences. Same with the poisoning in the UK. We know. They know we know and they don't care. In fact if anything it benefits them that we know it's them. In this case it lets all other defectors know they'll get them eventually and not even the UK government will do anything about it.

[u/Letsbesensibleplease → u/dprophet32]

The interview with the Skripal poisoning suspects was a definite "fuck you" from Putin.

"Our friends had been suggesting for a long time that we visit this wonderful town..."

[u/readingaccnt → u/dprophet32]

It’s easy to lie to Russian people because they are ignorant

[u/Murky-Relation481 → u/Bcmerr02]

It was a Buk, not an S-300.

[u/TheNorthernGeek → u/defroach84]

It is so disgusting that they would send them off to die at sea rather than just admit the mistake and save their lives.

[u/CharcoalGreyWolf → u/TheNorthernGeek]

The greatest lie of any dictator or authoritarian government is that it can do no wrong.

[u/Puzzled_Special_4413 → u/defroach84]

Yeah drop to water and kill yourself fucking bullies they are nothing more

[u/BubsyFanboy → u/defroach84]

They'll still try to pretend it wasn't their fault though.

[u/possibilistic → u/BubsyFanboy]

How can they do that? This is the fifth time they've shot down a passenger airline.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902 (2 killed)

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 (All 269 killed, including Larry McDonald from the US state of Georgia's 7th congressional district. We have a highway named after him.)

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 (All 78 killed. Joint Russia-Ukraine military exercise, missile launched under Russian control.)

4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 (All 298 killed)

5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_Airlines_Flight_8243 (38 killed so far)

[u/AngelRockGunn → u/possibilistic]

Have you met Russia

[u/Legal-Comment5183 → u/possibilistic]

Actually it’s at least sixth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_902

[u/WW3_doomer → u/defroach84]

No one will stop flying to Russia anyway.

They have social media bots to whitewash every imaginable crime and still fat wallet to attract foreign companies.

[u/mgr86 → u/defroach84]

I’m out of the loop. Is there a motive? Like was there a single person they were hoping to take out or what the theory here?

[u/Muad-_-Dib → u/mgr86]

Ukraine was attacking the same vague area with drones, Russian AA site locked onto the jet and didn't question why this particular "drone" was much larger, faster and higher up than the rest, they panicked and shot at it.

They weren't trying to kill anybody specifically, just good old-fashioned itchy trigger fingers combined with Russia's complete disregard for life by allowing plane flights anywhere near areas that Ukraine has been targetting, then not letting the plane make an emergency landing at a russian airport and diverting them over the sea hoping that the plane would crash into it and kill any witnesses and make the evidence harder to find.

Unfortunately for the Russians, the crew managed to keep the plane in the air long enough to get over the sea before the hydraulics eventually gave out and 30+ people managed to survive when it crashed on land.

[u/jdragon3 → u/Muad-_-Dib]

Unfortunately for the Russians, the crew managed to keep the plane in the air long enough to get over the sea before the hydraulics eventually gave out and 30+ people managed to survive when it crashed on land.

Not an expert by any stretch but the brief video of the crash itself seems to support that. Feel awful for the pilots looked like they went down fighting as hard as humanly possible but with pretty much no vertical control whatsoever.

[u/Available-Ad-3154 → u/jdragon3]

The died heroes. I can’t imagine what it took to fight through all that with the knowledge you likely wouldn’t be coming home, but still also saving dozens of lives.

[u/Traditional_Drama_91 → u/Available-Ad-3154]

Everyone keeps talking about the luck of the survivors but it’s really this that brought them through, modern safety engineering and heroic pilots

[u/Initial_Cellist9240 → u/Traditional_Drama_91]

It’s both though. To quote Picard “it is possible to do everything right, and still fail”.

It’s luck that those heroic efforts were rewarded in saving lives. They could have done all that and still there could have been no survivors.

[u/Letsbesensibleplease → u/jdragon3]

They'd dropped the gear but yes, very little in the way of control. Amazing job that anyone survived.

[u/Icy-Lobster-203 → u/Muad-_-Dib]

Probably similar to what happened with the USS Vincennes and Iranian Airlines flight 655 in 1988. Basically, US warship engaged with Iranian gunboats, picks something up on radar, and due to confusion and stress from being involved in active combat, the data misread as being a threat so it is shot down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)#Iran_Air_Flight_655](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)#Iran_Air_Flight_655) 

Edit: I don't raise this as "hurr durr America bad", but to point out this type of thing has happened before.

[u/MayiHav10kMarblesPlz → u/Icy-Lobster-203]

These things do happen in war time. However, the US reaction should be the standard in these events. They admitted it happened and conducted a rather vigorous and open investigation. If you accidently kill a bunch of civilians you can't try to cover it up or play ignorance.

[u/Tomek_xitrl → u/defroach84]

This is better for Russia in the end. It'll be an even bigger show of Russian power and international cowardice when there are 0 consequences.

[u/EasternEagle6203 → u/Tomek_xitrl]

It's not good for Russian propaganda that they shot down their own civilians in their own airspace.

[u/ButtPlugForPM → u/EasternEagle6203]

Lol like they will even know

Russian state tv is already laying the groundwork,saying it was ukraine mate.

[u/chillebekk → u/ButtPlugForPM]

They're going to say it collided with a Ukrainian drone. Calling it now.

[u/withpatience → u/Tomek_xitrl]

How is shooting down a civilian passenger jet a show of power?

At best it's incompetence, at worse, malice.

[u/Homersarmy41 → u/withpatience]

Because they have no consequences. Thats the power. Nobody but Ukraine is going to hit them back and its somehow a debate on whether we should support Ukraine or not.

[u/Geo_NL → u/Homersarmy41]

Sadly so. This has already been proven. Reminder: MH17, back in 2014. The deliberate shooting down of a large airliner, by Russia. Only thing that happened so far was the conviction of a few people we are unable to get to prison anyway.

This has especially been painful for the Netherlands since a majority of the people onboard were Dutch families.

[u/ChauvinistPenguin → u/Homersarmy41]

Their own citizens were on the flight - could you imagine if the military of a western country downed a plane? There'd be protests for weeks.

Will the Russians protest? I doubt it.

[u/Homersarmy41 → u/ChauvinistPenguin]

They know that if they start a mass protest they have to go all the way and take it all down or they will individually be grabbed off the streets and end up falling out of a window. They dont have the guts to stand up for themselves anymore. They just let Putin take all their men and send them to death. Pathetic for a country who prides themselves on being so tough that one little man keeps them hiding in their holes.

[u/solarcat3311 → u/ChauvinistPenguin]

If there isn't protest in Russians, it'd be an even larger display of power.

"We can kill citizens of any nation and face no consequences from any nation"

[u/No-Pilot-8870 → u/ChauvinistPenguin]

That's another show of power is it not? People that are fully subjugated.

[u/itsthenoise → u/withpatience]

Same old Russian sh*tshow shambles

[u/Extension_Bat_4945 → u/withpatience]

It’s probably incompetence. Wasn’t there an Ukraine drone attack nearby? Sad to see more innocent people die for stupidity

[u/Imcoolandimjack → u/withpatience]

You miss the point. The power is shown through the lack of response.

[u/LucidiK → u/withpatience]

If you can effectively be waging war and the international community doesn't do anything about it, seems like a flex to me.

[u/grey_carbon → u/Tomek_xitrl]

But also undermine international trust in Russia. And trust basically make money. Now planes will be afraid to fly in Russian airspace

[u/Stanislovakia → u/defroach84]

They did not jam radar, it was GPS. But that was likely due to the drone attack, rather then targeted specifically at the plane.

[u/nebeatsimenu]

They did this for the second time, they need to have consequences for this kind of shit. Ffs, russia is like a deranged neighbor for whole Europe and we have to casually deal with the shit they do.

[u/possibilistic → u/nebeatsimenu]

They did this for the second time,

Fifth time.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902 (2 killed)

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 (All 269 killed, including Larry McDonald from the US state of Georgia's 7th congressional district. We have a highway named after him.)

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 (All 78 killed. Joint Russia-Ukraine military exercise, missile launched under Russian control.)

4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 (All 298 killed)

5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_Airlines_Flight_8243 (38 killed so far)

[u/pekinggeese → u/possibilistic]

Wtf at #3. They fired a live missile during a military exercise? Even if it were a military target, wouldn’t that have shot them down too?

[u/sCeege → u/pekinggeese]

Live fire exercises are pretty common. How will you actually know or if your equipment works if you've never seen it in action a few times first?

[u/RT-LAMP → u/pekinggeese]

Yes the target it was a drone intended to be destroyed.

[u/BubsyFanboy → u/nebeatsimenu]

What else can we do besides a direct assault on Russia though?

[u/solarcat3311 → u/BubsyFanboy]

Blockade them and wall them off from the world. If no plane fly near Russia, then Russia can't shoot down more plan.

They can enjoy being NK.

[u/snoogins355 → u/solarcat3311]

Cut off access to CS:GO

[u/Bostolm → u/snoogins355]

"Suprising reports from russia, where just 3 hours after shutting down acces to CS:GO, the entire infrastructure has failed and Putin was announced dead"

[u/nboymcbucks → u/snoogins355]

Total collapse would come shortly after

[u/snoogins355 → u/nboymcbucks]

Pretty sure a revolution would happen

[u/Quizmaster_Eric → u/snoogins355]

What, and risk starting another world war?

[u/SporadicSheep → u/snoogins355]

Are you trying to radicalise them?

[u/Little-Derp → u/solarcat3311]

Cut them off from the rest of the world's internet would be a nice improvement; cut off any country's internet that refuses to cut Russia out. They've tested their internal system, and their intranet still works; they'll be fine.

[u/Rare-Dragonfruit-488 → u/Little-Derp]

That's a great idea. wall off communication coming out of Russia. Russian misinformation has done great damage to democracies around the world.

[u/Southside_john → u/Rare-Dragonfruit-488]

They send disinformation from other areas outside of Russia. They gave troll farms set up in Africa for example

[u/commissar0617 → u/Rare-Dragonfruit-488]

Set up broadcast systems for TV and radio.

Enforce a quarantine of the baltic sea and black sea.

Cutting off russian internet will help our national cybersecurity.

[u/Unlikely_Arugula190 → u/solarcat3311]

There will always be money to be made by trading with Russia. Just a recent example https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/12/24/bmw-confirms-luxury-cars-were-sold-to-russian-buyers-despite-sanctions

[u/solarcat3311 → u/Unlikely_Arugula190]

Of course. That's why Russia still exist. More profitable to keep around.

But maybe we can spare some profit to see them devastated.

[u/allstarrunner → u/BubsyFanboy]

Not make gas line deals with them would be a good start

[u/TheGreatButz → u/BubsyFanboy]

Physically cut internet cables and disconnect Russia from the internet as best as possible. Agreeing not to partake in any negotiations with Russia unless fixed conditions are met, due for re-negotiation after 1 year. Complete economic boycott of Russia. Giving Ukraine more long-range weapons with the permission to strike anywhere in Russia. Closing embassies in Russia and closing Russian embassies in Western countries except for Switzerland.

These are just examples, there are many more possibilities.

[u/vonkempib → u/BubsyFanboy]

Well for starters, let’s all stop flying planes in their territory. No more flights in or out. Russian airlines are fucked already because of sanctions. Now fuck any moderately well of citizen that remains purposely ignorant, let’s cancel their ability to experience quick easy, safe are travel to majority of not all of the civilized world.

[u/Canadaguy78 → u/BubsyFanboy]

It's just a matter of time. The longer we try to avoid the unavoidable the worse it'll be.

[u/The_JSQuareD → u/BubsyFanboy]

Give way, way more support to Ukraine. The west is giving Ukraine just enough to hold out while for the most part continuing a normal, peace-time economy. Total aid by Europe over the past 2.5ish years is something like €124 billion, or €50 billion or so per year. EU GDP is €17 trillion. So aid to Ukraine amounts to around 0.3% of GDP per year. It's even less for the US.

The cost of the aid sent to Ukraine so far is miniscule compared to the cost cuts that have been made to European defense budgets since the end of the cold war.

If the west really wanted to, they could easily give Ukraine what they need to win this war.

[u/Strong-Piccolo-5546 → u/BubsyFanboy]

other countries can ban flights to russia because its too dangerous.

US can put 1000% tariffs on all russian goods. This would be barely noticible to the US, we dont have a ton of trade with russia , but given russias economy is weak and smaller than us, it would hurt them. Trump loves to threaten to tariff everyone other than Russia. He does not want to Tariff Melania's boyfriend. She will get mad and Trump is a good boy.

name russia a state sponsor of terror like Iran and North Korea. This basically bans all american companies from trading with russia and bans us working with banks, etc... that trade with russia. This would have radical consequences on the russian economy. You can leave an exception for oil and gas since that would cause all kinds of political consequences.

we can send more aid to Ukraine. Pressure our allies to do more. Let Ukraine hit anywhere in Russia. Let them use Satellite intelligence inside of russia so they can target inside of russia.

[u/Brief-Visit-8857 → u/nebeatsimenu]

3rd time actually.

[u/possibilistic → u/Brief-Visit-8857]

Fourth time.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902 (2 killed)

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 (All 269 killed, including Larry McDonald from the US state of Georgia's 7th congressional district. We have a highway named after him.)

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 (All 298 killed)

4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan_Airlines_Flight_8243 (38 killed so far)

[u/GoldDiggingPriest → u/possibilistic]

The first time they even had the gall to bill Korea for their "rescue efforts" because they picked up the surviving passengers after shooting it down. (around $500.000 when adjusted for inflation)

[u/DomesticErrorist22]

From the article:

Azerbaijani government sources have exclusively confirmed to Euronews on Thursday that a Russian surface-to-air missile caused the Azerbaijan Airlines plane crash in Aktau on Wednesday.

According to the sources, the missile was fired at Flight 8432 during drone air activity above Grozny, and the shrapnel hit the passengers and cabin crew as it exploded next to the aircraft mid-flight.

Government sources have told Euronews that the damaged aircraft was not allowed to land at any Russian airports despite the pilots’ requests for an emergency landing, and it was ordered to fly across the Caspian Sea towards Aktau in Kazakhstan.

According to data, the plane’s GPS navigation systems were jammed throughout the flight path above the sea.

The missile was fired from a Pantsir-S air defence system, Baku-based international outlet AnewZ reported, citing Azerbaijani government sources.

According to Russian sources, at the time the Azerbaijan Airlines flight was passing over the territory of Chechnya, Russian air defence forces were actively attempting to shoot down Ukrainian UAVs.

The head of the Security Council of the Chechen Republic, Khamzat Kadyrov, confirmed that a drone attack on Grozny took place on Wednesday morning, noting that there were no casualties or damage.

[u/suddenly-scrooge → u/DomesticErrorist22]

while it started as gross negligence, the russians definitely tried to murder those people to destroy the evidence in the caspian sea

[u/StanleyCubone → u/suddenly-scrooge]

Homelander shit

[u/pinkjello → u/suddenly-scrooge]

Genuine question, if they were trying to destroy the evidence, why didn’t they just let them land in a Russian airport? Then they could’ve refused to allow the release/investigation of the airplane. Instead, the plane landed elsewhere, and investigators have free rein. Maybe they were betting the plane wouldn’t make it to another country’s soil?

[u/Longjumping-Boot1886 → u/pinkjello]

Caspian Sea is deep enough to delay investigation for a years. Some parts of the plane could be "missed".

[u/Juderampe → u/pinkjello]

Of course they did. Its a bombed airplane thats barely airworthy. They hoped it would down in the Caspian sea

[u/iron_and_carbon → u/pinkjello]

I suspect it was more of the standard ‘make this someone else’s problem’ attitude that pervades Russian bureaucracy. Rather than organising a competent coverup everyone scrambled to make the plane not their problem and hopefully go away by falling into the sea

[u/alexvonhumboldt → u/DomesticErrorist22]

Reading the last sentence makes me wonder if Russia will say that its Ukraines fault for flying drones that they then were forced to shot down

[u/Ecsta → u/alexvonhumboldt]

I mean sure can you use that as an excuse for the initial firing, but then how do you explain the GPS jamming and refusing to let them land haha.

[u/Nerezza_Floof_Seeker → u/Ecsta]

Both can by reasonably explained by the nearby drone strikes. GPS jamming is indiscriminate, and they may have closed their airports during the drone strikes. And seeing as the pilots themselves only initally reported a birdstrike (its not like pilots expect getting hit by a SAM), the nearby russian airports might not have been allowed to reopen for a "minor" issue.

[u/Bcmerr02 → u/DomesticErrorist22]

Ah yes, the Ukrainians are to blame because they launched a drone attack on Grozny just like their previous 3 attempts to attack a police station and 'special forces university' with a single drone so small that when it's attacked it lightly damages the roof of the building.

Russia is lying again. Chechnya is in the midst of its own civil war and they're more incompetent than the regular Russian army. Ukraine will be blamed, but everyone knows if they wanted to destroy a building in Grozny it wouldn't take two months and 4 half-assed attempts.

[u/Leasir → u/DomesticErrorist22]

Drone attack on Grozny? Should we buy that the Ukrainians sent drones to strike some rubble and sexually assaulted goats?

[u/Significant-Owl2580 → u/Leasir]

There was a drone attack on Chechenya last week that hit an OMON building

[u/msemen_DZ]

There will be zero repercussions for this, just like the other incidents.

[u/Codex_Dev → u/msemen_DZ]

Actually, the insurance rates for any airline flying through Russia will spike tenfold. This will affect countries like UAE, Turkey, etc. and will make the cost of flying there much more expensive.

[u/shaj_hulud → u/msemen_DZ]

It was an a Azeri plane. So it should be the Azeris who will be furious. But I believe that the propaganda there is equal to that in russia, so they might never know the truth.

[u/orxanplayer → u/shaj_hulud]

All Azerbaijani news outlets has confirmed russian strike on the plane.

[u/Fandorin → u/shaj_hulud]

Azerbaijan is not aligned with Russia. In fact, they are responsible for breaking Armenia off from the Russian axis and making Russia look impotent. They also hate Iran. Aliyev will make sure this gets a lot of traction unless there's something big in it for him. Post-Soviet geopolitics is very confusing and messy.

Edit: just saw an AP news alert that Azerbaijan is observing a day of mourning today because of this. It's not getting buried.

Edit 2: I love that the two replies currently up for my comment state the polar opposite of each other (Russia and Azerbaijan moving closer, and drifting farther apart), and are both plausible. Like I said, it's very complex and hard to predict.

[u/aceofspades1217 → u/Fandorin]

Turkey and the Azeris are tight so between this and Syria looks like Turkey and Russia are going father apart

[u/code_archeologist → u/aceofspades1217]

Turkey has aspirations of reclaiming the glory of the Ottoman Empire and becoming the regional power of the Eastern Mediterranean, Caucuses, and Middle East.

Which with their military alliances would make them an existential threat to Putin and his aspirations.

[u/Swaps_are_the_worst → u/code_archeologist]

Turkey is a natural counter to Russia, that is why they have been enemies for 300 years before WW1 and a natural Ally to NATO

[u/mehri1 → u/shaj_hulud]

Oh trust me we ALL know the truth. We have all seen much more evidence in our Azerbaijan media than whatever is found in English sources.

[u/TomNooksGlizzy → u/mehri1]

Like what?

[u/o7Lite → u/shaj_hulud]

This mf thinks we don’t have access to the internet

[u/GrandmaSharknado → u/o7Lite]

This mf thinks propaganda doesn't have access to the internet.

[u/MiloticM2 → u/o7Lite]

as if that has mattered in recent years

[u/dj-TASK]

And Russia has the audacity to say the ship that sunk was a terrorist attack! How many planes is Russia going to shoot down! How many innocent lives lost because Putins ego is too big to know this war needs to stop

[u/BubsyFanboy → u/dj-TASK]

His imperalist ambitions too.

[u/SmartDiscussion2161]

How long is the rest the world going to let Russia get away with this?

[u/goldensh1976 → u/SmartDiscussion2161]

As long as China and India are looking the other way.

[u/burnerfemcel → u/goldensh1976]

India and China love their cheap fossil fuels

[u/UniqueDesigner453 → u/burnerfemcel]

Fuel prices in India haven't gone down in any meaningful amount since Feb 2022.

All the 'cheap' fuel that it imports from Russia is refined and sent to the EU for their consumption. This is with the knowledge of the US and EU and explicitly not in violation of sanctions on Russia.

[u/Fire2box → u/UniqueDesigner453]

Which is why I love it when Ukraine blows up a oil facility in Russia.

[u/Inglorious186 → u/SmartDiscussion2161]

At least 4 more years from the US

[u/taltechy]

So they try to shoot down the plane and then direct the plane to the Caspian so they can continue to finish the job murdering civilians.

[u/Fuck_auto_tabs → u/taltechy]

Dead men tell no tales and good luck finding the black box

[u/eltorolocotoxicslut → u/taltechy]

In hindsight it might be better for those who did survive that the plane didn’t land in Russia.

[u/namotous]

Russia is at it again with their special operation

[u/Shas_Erra]

When will enough be enough? Russia needs to be blacklisted and shunned by every other government. No trade, no travel. Cut them off completely

[u/Tiny-Plum2713 → u/Shas_Erra]

China and India will never do that and that is enough for russia

[u/PositiveUse]

Inexcusable mistake. What is worse: they rejected helping the airplane by providing the emergency land clearance.

This makes the mistake active murder.

It’s time for international airlines to ban any flights into and out of Russia. Our politicians are spineless…

[u/lapayne82 → u/PositiveUse]

I’m honestly surprised anybody is still flying over Russian airspace right now, given their stocks for repairs and maintenance must be getting low, imagine Turkish airlines landing in Russia and needing a part to fly again that’s no longer available, they’d lose the aircraft, not to mention the number of “accidents” they’ve had so far, I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near Russian airspace

[u/mm0t → u/lapayne82]

The Chinese have a massive advantage when flying to Europe through Russia, European companies have cut routes to China due to losing money on the routes around Russia. They will keep flying even if something happens as they want it to stay that way, and they want their piece of routes to China.

[u/Wassertopf → u/mm0t]

Yeah, I was flying with Air China from Munich to Vietnam via Peking. When we flew over Russia I had a bit of a bad feeling.

[u/Homersarmy41]

ANOTHER passenger airliner shot down by Russia. How do they still have a vote at the UN much less veto power? The rest of the world needs to stand up against them and let them know that Putin goes or you fight all of us. Let the Russian people choose what they want to do.

[u/Vano_Kayaba → u/Homersarmy41]

Shooting it down is one thing: shit happens. But not letting it land is so vile. Sentencing people to death to cover up the fuck up. And all the dispatchers are ok with that, and shitload of people in the chain of command.

[u/Homersarmy41 → u/Vano_Kayaba]

Exactly!! Thats a really good point. The amount of horrible Russian people that had to be involved in this. Just totally cool with that being part of their job to kill random civilians. Wtf is wrong with these people?

[u/alwaysfatigued8787]

At what point does doing this shit become an act of war?

[u/defroach84 → u/alwaysfatigued8787]

Against who in this case? Azerbaijan? That would require them to break ties with Russia (good luck with that).

[u/ScoobiusMaximus → u/defroach84]

Azerbaijan is more of a Turkish ally than Russian at this point. 

[u/Mein_Bergkamp → u/defroach84]

They've literally just been at war with a Russian and Iranian ally, are backed by Israel and Turkey militarily and the EU diplomatically, they're not in the Russian sphere of influence anymore.

[u/red__what]

Of course! we haven't forgotten MH 17.

may the criminals burn in hell

[u/mesoller]

This is what happened 10 years ago to Malaysia. And we cannot do anything since we do not have power. Shame on you, Russia! - https://www.state.gov/10th-anniversary-of-the-downing-of-malaysia-airlines-flight-17/

[u/CyberGTI → u/mesoller]

The footage that came from the ground on that day was quite striking. A lot of military people running around saying "you Fools you shot down a plane"

[u/BlatantConservative → u/CyberGTI]

I still think that when Russia was like "that was a Ukrainian unit unrelated to the Russian military" Obama should have said "then you'd have no problems with us airstriking it right?"

[u/babyzizek]

Russia wil follow the same playbook as they did with MH-17. Deny, lie, frustrate and threaten.

Western businesses will continue to circumvent any possible additional sanctions because money.

[u/NRohirrim]

Do not fly to Russia.

[u/theenkos]

They should have a forever embargo for all western aligned civilian aircraft producers.

Even after the war is ended.

[u/mustscience]

Has Joe Rogan / Tucker Carlson already found a way to blame Ukraine for this? After all, if they hadn't attacked Grozny, then none of this would have happened!

[u/GeebyYu]

If Ukraine stopped defending itself this wouldn't have happened.

• The Pope (probably)

[u/cbcking → u/GeebyYu]

Or DJT special envoy

[u/The-JSP]

You let Russia shoot down one airliner, it invites them to do another. You let Russia invade one country, it invites them to invade another. Jesus fucking Christ when will the madness end.

[u/Pleasant_Dot_189]

We’ve seen this before

[u/Balgorius]

Russia is a shithole where human life has no value.

Every other western country would have population angry on the streets, yet 'strong' Russians rather die for Tzar in Ukraine.

[u/yoy22]

“Russian missile caused Azerbaijan airlines crash”

Love the use of passive voice here.

“Russia shot down civilian airliner”

Cmon

[u/MrBogardus]

Russia sure likes shooting down civilian airliners

[u/reidand]

They really like killing civvies, and once again likely no consequences for this shit, when are we going to punish these people for murdering innocent people

[u/Thisiscliff]

Disgusting. Poor people

[u/Servant_ofthe_Empire]

And nothing will happen

[u/Appropriate-Truck538]

Where are the Russian propagandists that were saying "do not jump to conclusions blah blah blah", it was clear from the start what happened to it.

[u/Any-Ant-4394]

People died again due to the Russian population of terrorists 

[u/One_Bandicoot_4932]

Man, Russia is really really bad at this war thing.

[u/87chargeleft]

The Russian air defense network has a proven track record against passenger airlines. They've stood the test of time and succeeded across multiple theaters of operation.

[u/thegreaterfool714]

Man those airline pilots were heroes. They paid the ultimate price but they were able to save some of the passengers

[u/Secure_Ticket8057]

NATO made Russia do it

/s

[u/schizeckinosy]

As usual, I read this info on Reddit subs yesterday while news stations were all talking about engine failure and bird strikes.

[u/pinkjello → u/schizeckinosy]

The burden of proof is higher for traditional media. You’re forgetting about the times Reddit gets it wrong and instigates a witch hunt (remember that marathon bomber?)

Come here for breaking news, but take it with a grain of salt. It’s good for actual news stations to take their time instead of peddling in rumors.

[u/arturkedziora → u/schizeckinosy]

I was looking at the shrapnel holes in the tail yesterday...Now, tell me what kind of birds would pierce aluminum like that? LOL... Consider me shocked at the news /s

[u/Robynsxx]

Russia continuing to be terrorists 

[u/doxxingyourself]

Missile “caused a crash”. How is that not “Russia shot down a civilian plane”???

[u/NeedForTeaMostWanted]

"surprise surprise"

[u/Elaxor]

Terrorist state.

[u/Naduhan_Sum]

Russia confirmed for the 999999th time that it’s the largest terrorist organization on the planet. It’s insane how much land they occupy on our planet.

[u/shockingprolapse]

I fuckin hate Russia