r/tuesday • u/tuesday_mod This lady's not for turning • 16d ago
Semi-Weekly Discussion Thread - December 16, 2024
INTRODUCTION
/r/tuesday is a political discussion sub for the right side of the political spectrum - from the center to the traditional/standard right (but not alt-right!) However, we're going for a big tent approach and welcome anyone with nuanced and non-standard views. We encourage dissents and discourse as long as it is accompanied with facts and evidence and is done in good faith and in a polite and respectful manner.
PURPOSE OF THE DISCUSSION THREAD
Like in r/neoliberal and r/neoconnwo, you can talk about anything you want in the Discussion Thread. So, socialize with other people, talk about politics and conservatism, tell us about your day, shitpost or literally anything under the sun. In the DT, rules such as "stay on topic" and "no Shitposting/Memes/Politician-focused comments" don't apply.
It is my hope that we can foster a sense of community through the Discussion Thread.
IMAGE FLAIRS
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The list of previous effort posts can be found here
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 9d ago
https://apnews.com/article/mideast-wars-yemen-us-navy-pilots-houthi-95a792daae3b0120186bfc6c66e1b6fe
Someone is getting fired
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 10d ago
So, from my understanding of how metal screamers "scream" without hurting their voice.
It's essentially manipulating your false vocal chords to produce a raspy sound, and then manipulating your real ones to get the desired sound.
Think of it as exaggerated rasping.
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u/cyberklown28 Environmentalist 10d ago
The San Francisco Department of Public Health has hired a self-described “anti-weight-based discrimination” expert to consult on “weight stigma and weight neutrality.”
In July, Tovar posted that she conducted a weight bias training for unidentified government workers, sharing 4 tips she taught to help decrease “stigma around food and bodies at work.”
“1. Talk less or not at all about how you and others eat at work,” she wrote. “2. Talk less or not at all about you or others’ bodies at work. 3. Talk less or not at all about exercise at work. 4. Don’t presume that food, weight, body size or exercise are safe or comfortable topics to discuss at work for everyone.”
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 10d ago
We do regular business with a division of San Francisco.
The best thing I can say about them is it has been the most tedious, unnecessarily complicated, and beaurocratic business relationship we've had in our 140 years as a company.
...okay maybe not all 140 years, but for sure in the 20+ years I've worked there.
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 10d ago
To /r/tuesday: Have a blessed week ahead.
Gospel According to Luke, 1:39–45 (ESV)
Mary Visits Elizabeth
In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a town in Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”
Fourth Sunday in Advent: Gospel Reading (CPH The Lutheran Study Bible) : https://www.reddit.com/r/Sunday/comments/1hjaibe/
Fourth Sunday in Advent: Reflections on Scripture (video, American Lutheran Theological Seminary) : https://www.reddit.com/r/Sunday/comments/1hjag9y/
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u/Palmettor Centre-right 10d ago
That was a shorter commentary on the passage than usual. Interesting.
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 11d ago
Dems trying to use the cancer portion of the omnibus as a weapon only for it to come out that the GOP House passed it earlier this year and it's the Dem Senate that has been allowing children to die from cancer is really chef's kiss.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 11d ago
In these trying and politically correct times, we need the return of our savior to make fun of the current Zeitgeist: Duke Nukem
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 11d ago
Email from a person after we refused to give them proprietary product information:
Your not a Merican' patriot. It's because of people like you that this country is deteriorating.
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u/vanmo96 Left Visitor 11d ago
Wat
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 11d ago
Dude wanted information we don't give out, claimed he is "from the government" (with a .com email no less), and said he was looking into our products for "armor applications".
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u/chanbr Christian Democrat 11d ago
That's weird. And annoying.
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 11d ago
He made my day. I really hope he gets even more big mad that we haven't replied and sends another email.
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u/GhostofDwight Centre-right 10d ago
I started on the Hill as a legislative correspondent and some of the letters we had to read were just insane beyond the pale. I still wonder if “John” ever got the CIA to stop their “Science Celebrity Operator” Bette Midler from saying his complete name 122 times per afternoon.
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u/vanmo96 Left Visitor 12d ago
Got a new car; 2024 Kia EV9, in (matte) Ocean Blue. In spite of the fact that I’m single with no kids, I bought a three row SUV. At least it fits all the dogs!
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 11d ago
Been pretty happy with my Kia sedan but I always get a bit worried about the stories of them and Hyundais being big theft targets.
Incredibly reliable cars for the cost nowadays. Especially used.4
u/Cragscorner Left Visitor 11d ago
As someone with a lot of thoughts about big SUVs taking over America, why did you choose a giant three-row SUV? A smaller hatchback has plenty of cargo room, would have been cheaper, and is more engaging to drive... Just curious, the EV9 is a nice-looking car, too!
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u/whelpineedhelp Left Visitor 10d ago
I got a Honda passport off carvana but got it home and it was just too big. Luckily they have a return policy so I sent it back and got a Subaru forester which I love. Perfect size suv IMO
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u/Spurgeoniskindacool Right Visitor 11d ago
I have five children, which is why I'm interested. Primary car is the Kia minivan, and then I have a Honda Accord with 275k miles on it. When that kicks the bucket I'd love a secondary car that can fit the fan in an emergency. Electric SUV sounds like a good idea
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u/vanmo96 Left Visitor 11d ago edited 11d ago
The EV6 felt a little tight, the Hyundai Ioniq 5 was unobtanium near me, the Tesla Model Y hasn’t been refreshed yet (plus Elon), and virtually all of the other makes I had concerns about one way or another. In addition, when I take the dogs I can still fit two people in back with some cargo, or lots of cargo. Also, the Rivian was too expensive, and there were good discounts on the EV9.
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u/Soarin-Flyin Classical Liberal 11d ago
Not the person you responded to but we have a RAV4 and are thinking of getting a Highlander next. The extra room is nice now that we’ve got two kids and there have definitely been times where I wish we had a little more room. It just fits our lifestyle better.
Another thing too is I live in an area where it’s a lot of those big oversized trucks, often lifted. If we’re driving a sedan or smaller car those trucks would absolutely smash the shit out is. It’s not uncommon to see their bumper above our hood in the RAV. I realize me buying a bigger car adds to the increased safety risk but it’s hard to reconcile the overall benefits:harms when the harm would fuck up so much of what is important to me.
I’m fairly “live and let live” but I definitely have an authoritarian streak when it comes to wanting to get rid of these F-250 and larger style trucks. If you like the aesthetic (which I definitely do) then just get something like a Ford Maverick. There are not that many people who need the towing or bed capacity those big trucks provide.
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 11d ago
We have a (2016) Highlander, it's a fantastic car. we don't often utilize the third row, but we have two big dogs that fit nicely in the back with the seats down. We do a lot of travel-by-car as well, having the space for all our shit, plus the towing capacity is really nice. If you haul stuff on the roof, pay attention to tie-down spots. My MiL has a 2020 Highlander hybrid and it's hard to find good anchor spots.
My car is a Audi wagon. Absolutely adore it, but yeah it feels puny when I'm next to the new trucks. Having one behind me at night is torture too because the headlights are right at eye level.
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u/Spurgeoniskindacool Right Visitor 11d ago
What do you think of it? I picked up the carnival 2024 model so not hybrid, but the EV9 would be a great second vehicle in a few years a
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u/vanmo96 Left Visitor 11d ago
Nice and comfy. Drives well, will be used for my long commute and regional road trips. I got the Land trim, but even the Light and Wind trims have good features (all feature heated and ventilated front seats, for example).
If you can swing it now, many of the dealers are giving deep discounts. Mine was $12,000+ off MSRP.
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u/Spurgeoniskindacool Right Visitor 11d ago
I don't want two car payments. Pay off carnival first :)
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u/coldnorthwz New Federalism\Zombie Reaganite 12d ago
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u/NonComposMentisss Left Visitor 11d ago
I'm calling it now, Jeffries will be Speaker before the midterms. Most likely due to GOP members just resigning so they don't have to deal with Trump and Elon anymore.
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 10d ago
Nothing gets done and we just let judges get approved? Sounds good to me.
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u/cyberklown28 Environmentalist 12d ago
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u/coldnorthwz New Federalism\Zombie Reaganite 12d ago
https://x.com/yashar/status/1869891271701168394?t=QumLMck2hHmgGem5IYNDXA&s=19
Next 4 years are going to be a shitshow
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 12d ago
Sen. Thom Tillis (R-North Carolina) said Thursday that Republicans have “no leverage” to demand a debt ceiling increase from Democrats right now as part of a short-term funding bill, as President-elect Donald Trump has suggested.
“It’s not even clear to me we have the right people negotiating because I thought the four corners agreed to this, and we’re back to the drawing board,” Tillis said, referring to the four top leaders of both parties of the House and the Senate. “Raises a question about who needs to be in the room and how many corners there are.”
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u/wheelsnipecelly23 Left Visitor 12d ago
Well as long as every GOP member of Congress acquiesces to Trump every single time there's just one corner that really matters.
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 12d ago
If I was a GOP member, I’d just give a middle finger to everything by voting for Jeffries to really mess things up.
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u/permajetlag Left Visitor 11d ago
This is political suicide. Previous members who have tried this have lost their committee assignments.
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u/Jags4Life Classical Liberal 11d ago
If there was a ever a time for it to happen, it would have been on the floor vote for Jim Jordan as Speaker.
Was really hoping that would be a breaking point to send a message from the Problem Solvers Caucus or similar, but no dice.
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 12d ago edited 12d ago
CFB playoffs start tomorrow! I’ll be freezing my ass off in South Bend to open the shenanigans. Here are the picks:
ATS
Notre Dame (-7.5) against Indiana
Clemson (+11.5) against Texas
Penn State (-8.5) against SMU
Upset
Tennessee will plant the flag in Columbus, beat 7.5 favorite Ohio State, and Ryan Day will get run out of town to start the new year to Lou Holtz’s delight!
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u/cyberklown28 Environmentalist 12d ago
Earlier today, a group of 28 Members of Congress signed a letter to incoming Congressional leadership recommending a two-step reconciliation process in the 119th Congress, with the first reconciliation bill focusing on border and immigration-related provisions and the second focusing on extensions for the expiring provisions of the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act . Members point to the need to more than offset the costs and achieve deficit reduction in the process.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 12d ago edited 12d ago
One thing I find interesting about this sub's post.
Normal Right-winged piece: barely any comments.
Anything involving Healthcare: Everyone's got an opinion.
The livelier discussion on the other post would indicate to me that maybe healthcare reform (not in the Single-payer sense, just making it objectively better) is something we should prioritize. It seems to be the only thing any one of us can agree on, albeit for different reasons.
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 12d ago
Part of it I think is that, like you said, pretty much everyone agrees there are big issues with healthcare but the options to change it are vast and varied compared to stuff like "yes we should fund our allies" or "no don't give billions of dollars to our enemies." Just leads to the topic naturally having a lot to discuss.
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u/Viper_ACR Left Visitor 12d ago
LVs also swarm those posts, they see it and they're like "fuck these RW dudes, they're wrong" and basically it descends into a slapfight
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u/Mal5341 Conservatarian 13d ago
All this talk about preemptive pardons and such is starting to get on my nerves.
I say call MAGAs bluff. Let them unleash the DoJ and FBI on Cheney, Kizinger, the judges etc. let them investigate and overturn every pebble. And when they find zero evidence of a witch hunt watch it all blow up in their face and watch these people be vindicated once and for all.
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 12d ago
That doesn't seem to give any consideration to how monumentally expensive and awful it is to be the subject of a criminal investigation you are clearly innocent of as well as the many potential knock-on effects of having the FBI calling your business associates and the like.
And the benefit you mention is also potentially suspect as Trump and his associates already pushed for highly politicized investigations into his personal enemies and faced zero consequences of note for it.
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u/Viper_ACR Left Visitor 12d ago
They'll probably invent fake charges.
Also, Trump's DOJ sent the US Marshals to arrest an antifa idiot in Portland during the 2020 shitstorm and the Marshals killed the guy https://www.opb.org/article/2021/09/20/federal-task-force-members-killed-portland-anti-fascist-supporter-will-not-be-charged/
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u/haldir2012 Classical Liberal 13d ago
And when they find zero evidence of a witch hunt watch it all blow up in their face and watch these people be vindicated once and for all.
Except they will never admit that, and every hearing they hold will get them earned media, which is the actual point.
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 13d ago
Welcome to Who's MAGA is it Anyway? The awful reality where the rules are made up and the points don't matter.
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u/Mexatt Rightwing Libertarian 13d ago
For no particular reason: Ronald Reagan's final speech as President.
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u/N0RedDays Liberal Conservative 14d ago
Recap of Days One and Two in our Nation’s Capital.
Day One: Tour of the Pentagon followed by Arlington National Cemetery. Very moving seeing the part of the Pentagon hit by the Plane. Some highlights from Arlington were Audie Murphy, JFK, USS Monitor, USS Maine, and the Changing of the Guard just as it got dark. Dinner at a place in Georgetown called Filomena, it was AMAZING! Super busy but luckily I made a reservation. Our hotel is very nice but parking is $60/night. I should have done more research, but on the bright side it’s located in a very convenient area of DC, and we’re only here 3-4 days.
Day Two: Breakfast at Starbucks. Next stop was the Old Post Office which has a great little exhibit and the most spectacular view from the clock tower. Next was the World War I memorial which is amazing. Then the Sherman statue followed by the German-American friendship garden (not in bloom unfortunately). We then went to the World War II memorial, John Paul Jones monument, and the Korean War Memorial. Then, we visited Washington National Cathedral for a service of Choral Evensong (breathtaking), dinner at a great little Chinese place not far by ( Dumplings & Beyond, highly recommend). Funny enough, the Russian Embassy was on the way from the Cathedral (I had no idea it was) so I saw it and had my wife take my picture in front of the plaque. Finally, we went to see the Lincoln Memorial and Vietnam War Memorial at night along with a great view of the reflecting pool. We were supposed to also go to the National Christmas Tree after this, but the Ellipse was shut down because Biden was landing in Marine One, which I actually saw land.
It’s been a great two days! More exciting things tomorrow with lots of museums and the Washington monument planned.
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u/DerrickWhiteMVP Conservatarian 13d ago
The 9/11 memorial outside of the Pentagon so well done. The one inside is as well. They have the names of the people who died with this parchment paper and chalk that you can use to imprint their names to take with you. Obviously, phones are not allowed inside, so you cannot take pictures but get something to take with you. Inside the Pentagon is insane, it’s a whole city in there.
Got to go in the Russian Embassy and it is gorgeous in there. It was kind of harrowing going there after the Ukraine invasion and asking pointed questions about it to the Ambassador. Lincoln Memorial is amazing, too.
The Holocaust Museum is a must. They often have survivors there to talk to. It’s emotional and shocking even when you know a lot about the concentration camps. I would highly recommend checking it out. Check out the National Archives as well.
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u/psunavy03 Conservative 14d ago
So Michael Vick recently got a head coaching job. Other football-related subs are losing their minds. Everything that I've read indicates he's been a changed man since he got out of prison, and has been trying to right his past wrongs and promote animal welfare.
But quote the Sermon on the Mount about being judged by the standard you judge others on those same subs, and prepare to be downvoted into the ground. The human race really does have a problem with the redemption of people who once did something fucking awful. Some people just want to be able to shit on them in perpetuity, no matter how much they try to make amends.
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u/IndubitablyThoust Right Visitor 12d ago
I thought Redditors saw prison as a place to rehabilitate people instead of punishing them? Guess that wrong.
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u/DerrickWhiteMVP Conservatarian 13d ago
Good redemption arc. People make mistakes, especially those who don’t know they’re making a mistake. Dog fighting and cock fighting can be cultural things that, if you grow up around it, you don’t understand how awful it is. He learned, did his time and appears to be a changed man for the better. I’m happy for him, hope he succeeds and is seen as a good story for people that they can always improve themselves.
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u/haldir2012 Classical Liberal 13d ago
For public figures, I'm suspicious of a PR team creating an accurate facsimile of remorse in the media. So even if all the articles I read say he's a changed man, I'm not sure if I should believe it. That being said, the same applies in reverse - I don't know the guy in person so I can't be certain that he's still an asshole, so best to withhold judgment.
Separately - is there reason to believe a guy who was once a pro player is going to be a particularly gifted coach?
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u/kikikza Left Visitor 13d ago edited 13d ago
On the second point, it very frequently happens (and also very frequently flops). Some very highly regarded coaches are former players in their sport.
Ironically, the best former-player-coaches usually had mostly unremarkable playing careers, and when the greats try to coach it usually flops (the only exceptions I can think of off the top of my head are Bill Russell as a player/head coach and Zinedine Zidane in soccer - Gretzky never coached a team to the playoffs conversely)
In baseball many of the most famous managers in history, including but not limited to Tony LaRussa, Casey Stengel, Joe Torre, Dusty Baker, and many, many more were former players. In basketball there was Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, even Bill Russell was a player/coach for a long time. I don't know football and hockey as well but it frequently occurs there as well.
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 13d ago
I don't know football and hockey as well but it frequently occurs there as well.
Scotty Bowman won nine Stanley Cups as a coach (out of 13 trips) and never played a day in the NHL (through no fault of his own).
Fun Phil Jackson stat, as a coach his teams never had a losing record, and never missed the playoffs.
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u/idlewildsmoke Right Visitor 13d ago
He’s done everything the right way since his arrest. Did his time, kept his head down, seems like a good dude who is sorry for what he did. I’m a Falcons fan so somewhat biased.
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u/Soarin-Flyin Classical Liberal 13d ago
Yeah he’s like one of the few who have shown actual remorse. I think Ray Rice is a good example too.
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u/thematterasserted Left Visitor 14d ago
I've seen a lot of disdain for Lina Khan here, which I have a hard time reconciling with moves like this. I admittedly don't know much about her, but I know she's received bipartisan praise and has taken numerous actions that seem very pro-consumer to me. What am I missing? Honest question.
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u/Nklst Liberal Conservative 13d ago
Disdain is for her antitrust actions.
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u/thematterasserted Left Visitor 13d ago
Any examples that stand out? Trust busting sounds pretty great to me on its face.
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u/Representative_Bat81 Right Visitor 14d ago
Did a long post on the fake information surrounding the UHC assassination. It’s here: https://open.substack.com/pub/williamferreira/p/brian-thompson-and-luigi-mangione?utm_source=app-post-stats-page&r=3h45yr&utm_medium=ios
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u/DerrickWhiteMVP Conservatarian 14d ago
Stuck on I-24 for over an hour again. Two fucking hours to go less than 40 miles.
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u/braeeeeeden Liberal Conservative 15d ago
Scoop: GOP senator pushes huge increase to child tax credit
ok like yes but what’s the pay for
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u/PubliusVA Constitutional Conservative 14d ago
That’s one thing I liked about Romney’s proposals. He covered both sides.
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u/braeeeeeden Liberal Conservative 14d ago
Agreed. There are definitely ways to pay for this but at this point, the details are awfully light, which is concerning given the DC track record
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u/psunavy03 Conservative 15d ago
I’ll keep saying it until I’m blue in the face. If a minor misuses a firearm, somewhere there exists its adult owner, who needs to be consistently and reliably held accountable for failing to exercise positive control over their shit.
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 14d ago
The maddening thins is just how easy it is to safely store them. Mine is locked in a closet without the bolt, the bolt is locked in our fire safe different room. Even if my kid managed to get their hands on the gun, it's no more dangerous than if they found the leftover steel pipe in our laundry room.
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u/Spurgeoniskindacool Right Visitor 14d ago
I was at a family thanksgiving gathering and found a handgun just sitting in a metal wire basket. Found out it belonged to my brother in law. There are five kids around who could have grabbed it. When confronted he said "it's not like they could cock it, it takes a to much strength". And then he left it there again the next day and ended up leaving it over night on accident.
I'm pro the legal right to own a gun, but I don't think he is mature enough to own a gun...
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 14d ago
I probably would've hidden it somewhere and let him freak out about it for a while.
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 15d ago
Every reasonable gun owner should support that.
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u/oh_how_droll Right Visitor 9d ago
I agree as a cultural norm, for sure, but it's hard for me to support it being made into a law. Maybe it's just because I live in California, but I feel like it would be all too easy for safe to be defined either in the law or in practice as something not far off "three separate individually non-functional parts, each sealed in a solid block of lucite".
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u/Soarin-Flyin Classical Liberal 14d ago
Unfortunately the irrational ones will scream “shall not be infringed!”
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u/Viper_ACR Left Visitor 13d ago
So I've brought this up and that's largely the only response I got. And I'm definitely one of the gun nuts here
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 15d ago
If Trump can sue pollsters, can I sue my local meterologist for getting the weather wrong?
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u/Bullet_Jesus Left Visitor 15d ago
Considering the discourse; what are peoples ideas for healthcare reform in this country? Are there any other countries that have systems that you think we could draw inspiration from? What are peoples thoughts on national solutions vs regional ones and their feasibility?
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u/psunavy03 Conservative 14d ago edited 14d ago
The problem is that everyone wants American access to care (or access to care 10 years ago) combined with British/Commonwealth lack of having to pay for it. Someone has to pay. Bitch all you want about doctors making bank, but how many people can crack you open and sew you back up, or feed you chemicals, and then make you better instead of killing you? My parents are elderly, and they've been on and on lately about their providers complaining about the doctor shortage and how it's going to affect my generation when we get really old.
The meme I've seen going around recently jokes about the American, British, and Canadian healthcare systems:
* America: "The bill for your procedure is $15,000."
* Britain: "The wait for your procedure is 18 months."
* Canada: "Have you considered assisted suicide?"Joking aside, you can't just wave your hands and get perfect on-demand socialized healthcare. No country has done that. So how to square that circle? Personally I lean towards a means-tested public option, or a public option for all supplemented by private insurance. But it's a bitch of a problem that insurance is a financial product designed to offload risk. And from a healthcare perspective, well, the risk is guaranteed. We're all eventually going to die of something. How do you insure that and stay in business without making ugly choices?
Edit: Also, no one wants to talk about the fact that we're a nation of fatasses, and what would need to happen to decrease overall mortality in the American population. And I may not be obese, but I have some standard middle-aged dadbod and I'm a beer and whiskey-lover and a gun collector. So I'm frankly not interested in following that rabbit hole to see where the busybodies take it, either. At some point, the joy I've gotten in my life may have shaved some time off its overall length, but that's fine. Because I enjoyed it more in the living of it.
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u/Bullet_Jesus Left Visitor 14d ago
There's definitely the classic issue of voters going "I want this service but I am unwilling to pay for it." Democrats seem married to the idea that the wealthy will just pay for everything and the GOP seems opposed to the idea of healthcare reform on principle.
Everyone agrees that there's a problem but no one can agree to a solution for fear that an reform might not lead to their preferred solution not being the end. Too many Dems approach healthcare as not a service to be provided but an inequality to be solved. Like, bad outcomes don't matter as long as rich and poor suffer equally. I can sympathize with the idea that being rich shouldn't allow you to get skipped over other's who more pressingly need the care but at that point we should be increasing supply rather than controlling demand.
It's a perfect environment for the GOP to take the lead on reform but the Dems adoption of stuff like he individual seems to have broke them. The mandate was originally a conservative idea, that would serve as an alternative to single payer but becasue the dems were trying to implement it the GOP had to oppose it. I get that it is more complicated than that, the ACA was more than the mandate but the farce of 2017 really revealed that the GOP was even more divided over healthcare than the Dems.
I think we're increasingly heading to a single-payer world. I know people suggest a public option or insurer regulation as alternatives but what is the difference between that and single-payer at that point? A public option cannot go bust as it is run by the state, insurance companies cannot compete with that, and regulating the insurance companies basically just turns them into a fragmented single-payer system. TBF everyone being in one mandatory pool is basically the most stable insurance. Even then this does nothing to fix the 50 atomized state system we have and there's nothing the federal government can do about that.
As for national health, I think plenty of people talk about how fat the country is, it's often brought up as an explanation for why we send so much on healthcare and have such poor outcomes in the end, as if the US is the only fat country in the world. It's not really a productive direction to take the conversation though. Politicians have been trying to get Americans healthier since the 60's and it has only gotten worse ever decade. It's only reversed with the ongoing usage of GLP-1 agonists. It would take some truly draconian laws to get people to change their habits. Alcohol and tobacco prohibition and probably limits on how much "high calorie" food you can buy, all with the goal of forcing people back to like 1920's diets.
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u/psunavy03 Conservative 14d ago
Arguably Ozempic et al could potentially avoid said draconian laws, IF we as a society are willing to subsidize them.
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u/Bullet_Jesus Left Visitor 14d ago
Personally I'm sceptical of the long term benefits of Ozempic but looking at the past, it probably is the only realistic solution to the obesity epidemic at this point.
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u/coldnorthwz New Federalism\Zombie Reaganite 14d ago
Crush the AMA, end certificate of need laws ("theres already a hospital here, mine, we dont need another"), massively increase medical school spots, make a medical degree a 4-7 year ordeal (including residency), import as many doctors as we can get ahold of. Lack of competition and absurdly high wages are one of the primary components, if not the primary component, to the high costs.
Drastically reform Medicare and Medicaid if we can't outright get rid of them. Endlessly deep pockets on the medical side for a huge segment of the population, like what has happened with student loans in education, exacerbated costs. Especially when we consider Medicare, it's the elderly hoovering up most medical care. There needs to be more limits.
Medical pricing should be completely transparent and the costs of everything should be disclosed up front, easy to find, and straightforward to understand
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u/Jags4Life Classical Liberal 14d ago
The core of Presidential-candidate John McCain's plan was always appealing to me: $XXXX credit for health insurance separate from employment, portable, and remove state barriers so all companies have to compete for all individuals/families. Credit amount is tied to inflation.
I would add that instituting a requirement for health insurance providers to be non-profits would also be beneficial but not a deal breaker for me.
There is likely a continued need for low cost insurance and providing services for individuals who cannot afford it, so requiring companies providing insurance to offer plans at the minimum credit amount would be beneficial.
But at its core:
- Remove state barriers for competition
- Provide a stipend/credit for insurance purchasing
- Insurance is no longer tied to employment and insurance is portable
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u/Bullet_Jesus Left Visitor 14d ago
I find it interesting that people do identify some common problems with US healthcare. State barriers and the whole employer insurance because they can pay if before tax.
It does seem though that any system is going to be stymied by the position of each of the states though. State barriers would have to be removed state by state, same with income taxes to allow for detachment of insurance from employers. It looks like an insurmountable challenge to get the states to agree to such a roll out.
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u/Mexatt Rightwing Libertarian 15d ago
Universal free market in insurance, subscription, mutual, or whatever the hell healthcare funding and delivery mechanism free people choose.
Barring that, Universal HSAs up to a particular dollar figure then universal catastrophic insurance above that, with a separate program for chronic incurables. Income based top-ups for the HSAs. I think Singapore does something like this.
Barring that, a broken Beveridge system where regional governmental organizations own public hospitals which service the poor free of charge and ramp up the dollar cost based on income to a point where people above a certain threshold pay full cost (and maybe even people above another threshold pay an even higher cost, to subsidize the system) to encourage them to go to private healthcare providers using their private insurance. This is kind of like wedding the normal Scandinavian Beveridge system with the Australian Medicare.
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u/Bullet_Jesus Left Visitor 14d ago
Universal free market? Wouldn't that require getting all the states on board with harmonizing their regulatory codes?
I've heard mixed things about the Singapore system, it seems efficient but I've heard that there are some issues with health outcomes.
I'm surprised to see advocacy for public providers. Then again though I'm confused how this broken Beveridge system operates. If it is designed to get the wealthy to go to private healthcare on private insurance how will it acquire the wealthy users that are supposed to subsidize the system for the poor?
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u/Mexatt Rightwing Libertarian 14d ago
Universal free market? Wouldn't that require getting all the states on board with harmonizing their regulatory codes?
Yep. One of the biggest problems with something like insurance (although, really, finance in general) in American history has been fragmentation of regulatory regime, often including widespread adoption of bad models and narrow or sectional adoption of good ones. These days we have uniform model law organizations like the ULC to provide harmonized model laws, so it's less of a problem, but harmonization can important for sustaining a common market. See: the EU, in general.
I've heard mixed things about the Singapore system, it seems efficient but I've heard that there are some issues with health outcomes.
Can't get significantly worse than the US, now, right?
I'm surprised to see advocacy for public providers. Then again though I'm confused how this broken Beveridge system operates. If it is designed to get the wealthy to go to private healthcare on private insurance how will it acquire the wealthy users that are supposed to subsidize the system for the poor?
The idea is they would be owned, operated, and funded either by states or some sort of more local, regional public organizations via taxes. But, if someone wealthy wanted to go to one, they'd both get care and be contributing to the system by being charged through the nose for the care. Take a bit of the financial burden off of taxpayers.
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u/Bullet_Jesus Left Visitor 14d ago
harmonization can important for sustaining a common market
I can actually really get behind this. The US has come a long way since federalization was established and healthcare has changed a lot too. I can understand that the states still have a place for more regionalized industries and for social issues but some issues are becoming increasinly national and require national solutions.
I don't see how this harmonization can be feasibly achieved though. Any federal solution would require opt-in from the states, and when was the last time all 50 states agreed on anything? Feasibly you could create quite a big bloc with just a few states but the best market is the biggest one.
The idea is they would be owned, operated, and funded either by states or some sort of more local, regional public organizations via taxes
As so everyone is already bought in, the poor are subsidized, the middle break even and the wealthy pay for a service they are not likely to use.
I like it, though I expect it to be a real political battle to implement.
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u/bta820 Left Visitor 14d ago
What qualifies as a chronic incurable. As a type 1 diabetic my opinions on healthcare always come from are my choices death, bankruptcy, or wishing to die
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u/Mexatt Rightwing Libertarian 14d ago
The general idea is to make insurance act as actual insurance and directly subsidize what we want to subsidize, instead of breaking the model of insurance and rearranging it into a subsidy.
What, exactly, that means in practice is a deeper discussion. Things that aren't risks (probability of lifetime occurrence == 100%) and are high enough cost to be infeasible to self-fund are the general target, but the boundaries are vague.
Type I diabetes is apparently at least partially genetic, so it would fall under the this umbrella, it looks like.
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u/cyberklown28 Environmentalist 15d ago
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u/Bullet_Jesus Left Visitor 14d ago
The Swiss model is quite interesting, it very much seems to be what the ACA was aiming for. I can see why it is popular with conservative reformers. German seems to have a similar system.
Looking at this it does seem that the US system fails due to a lack of cooperation with regulators and and unwillingness to control costs and pricing in the system. The fact the we have basically 50 systems plus the feds on top means that insurers operating across states have to deal with multiple regulatory frameworks.
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 15d ago
Separate health insurance from employment. If employers want to offer that as a benefit, let them compete. But give people the ability to get health insurance and not be reliant on being stuck in a shitty job.
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u/Bullet_Jesus Left Visitor 15d ago
How would that work? I guess exempt income spent for health insurance from income tax?
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u/bta820 Left Visitor 15d ago
This matters so little to the people who absolutely won’t be able to afford it
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u/PubliusVA Constitutional Conservative 14d ago
You convert the income exclusion for employer-paid health premiums into a fully-refundable tax credit.
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u/N0RedDays Liberal Conservative 15d ago
The wife and I are taking a trip to DC and NY this week. We’re currently stopped somewhere in VA eating at a Waffle House; which my wife has never had, being a foreigner
I’ll keep you guys posted on the highlights, I’m honestly more excited about DC than NY being the history and politics nerd that I am.
Hoping you all have a great week.
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u/Palmettor Centre-right 15d ago
Make sure to check out Potbelly Sandwich Shop in DC. It’s not a blow-your-mind sandwich, but it is really good.
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u/psunavy03 Conservative 15d ago
Meh. It’s a chain. It’s not a bad sandwich at all, but DC isn’t the only place you can find it.
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u/Palmettor Centre-right 14d ago
That’s true, but there aren’t any where I’m from, so it was always a treat when I traveled up that way.
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u/IndubitablyThoust Right Visitor 15d ago
I find most pro-capitalism and anti-Marxist people don't emphasize enough about how Marxists have pretty much failed at creating anything resembling a worker's state or having worker's actually seize the means of production when they take over. As well as the inability of Marxist of actually creating anything resembling a dictatorship of the proletariat, a fair democratic system of governance, and non-abusive ruling class.
The entire rhetoric of Marxism pretty much relies on the discussions of workers and their oppression and pointing out the hypocrisy of Marxists and their failures when they actually take over seems like a good way of convincing people to turn away from Marxism. Or reduce the appeal of Marxism.
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u/TychoTiberius Right Visitor 15d ago
I actually find that to be the most common way people attack Marxism and the standard response is to say "That wasn't real Marxism".
I think the best attack is pointing out how well off westerners are compared to the rest of the world and how severe of a dip in quality of life you'd have to endure in order equally distribute resources among everyone.
In a real life situation 99.9% of Western leftists won't give up their current lifestyle in order to drop down to only about a $10k yearly income standard or living for the rest of their life. A lot would say otherwise, but they wouldn't actually bite that bullet if push comes to shove.
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u/Tass94 Left Visitor 14d ago
Thankfully as someone who has lived in that range, I don't have to pretend when I speak, though I think you've accurately described a lot of progressive liberals (at least as far as America specifically is concerned). There's a lot of high-mindedness but very little policies put forth aimed at bringing that high-mindedness back to earth.
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u/Spurgeoniskindacool Right Visitor 15d ago
I think that's the thing that most people arguing with Marxist try to point out, but Marxist just respond that Marxism was never really tried
When I have had discussions like that in the past I have had people even argue that communist dictatorships were actually fascist and only called themselves communist.
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u/Tass94 Left Visitor 15d ago
This goes for both of you and the OP, hopefully I can start a dialogue here rather than try to attack either of you (and vice versa).
I think the claim that Marxism has never truly been tried is somewhat true, because there (to my knowledge) has never been a Marxist country that hasn't ever had to deal with capitalist or reactionary forces trying to stomp it out of existence. It's been tried, but the argument would be that it's never been given a fair shot, which I think is reasonable.
Now whether or not if it was given a free shot, would it evolve into the utopia that people claim? Absolutely not, not while it exists simultaneously in a capitalist world, at the very least. There's an argument to be made about how nominally communist countries have slipped from their intended roots and morphed into grotesque caricatures of either their frameworks or other imperialist/capitalist countries, but if capitalist countries that range from Pinochet to the Nordics are able to carry the mantle of capitalism, then I think that should extend to communist (nominal or otherwise) as well, in that, no country is a 1:1 and each situation on the ground is unique to each country, ie, the Soviet Union absolutely morphed into a totalitarian authoritarian regime, but it was still communist.
edit: i rambled a bit here, hopefully it came out coherent lol
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u/Sir-Matilda Ming the Merciless 15d ago
I think the claim that Marxism has never truly been tried is somewhat true
It's a semantic game that's been played with every socialist regime. Venezuela is the most recent example.
First it's socialist and has a huge crowd of leftwing Western intellectuals praising it. Then it's struggling and it's the fault of internal dissenters or the West. And finally it was never socialism at all and it's boorish and crass to suggest otherwise.
https://iea.org.uk/publications/socialism-the-failed-idea-that-never-dies/
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u/Tass94 Left Visitor 15d ago
Except that it is socialist? I wouldn't suggest otherwise.
I think they had a counter-coup recently (I'm not too up on Venezuela) that tried to dispel the reforms that were put into place, but I'm not trying to play semantics here lol. Your beef is with others, not me.
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u/Sir-Matilda Ming the Merciless 15d ago
I mean it seems like we're in agreement that these regimes like Venezuela were socialist and the claim that real socialism wasn't tried is crap?
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u/Tass94 Left Visitor 14d ago
I think you're engaging in bad faith and not trying to have a dialogue, which is pretty normal for this subreddit (and you specifically). I understand this is a sensitive subject in a C-R subreddit, but this isn't the first time you've taken it personally on this subject in my experience. It's not needed.
There is no such thing as "real socialism" - each variant is unique to the country in the same way each economic or political system is unique to a country (with some flavor changes of course).
I think it's contextually and intellectually dishonest to look at these states without applying the historical factors affecting their states. Did Venezuela tank its economy by turning itself into an oil state without properly reinvesting it into their country and citizens? That's not exclusive to a socialist country, one, and two, there were other factors that led to the situation that they're in currently.
Remember, my claim is that it's somewhat true - because none of these countries have been allowed to exist without extreme duress and external pressure applied to them.
edit: With that being said, I still think there is plenty to learn from the various marxist, socialist, and communist countries that have existed and/or are in existence.
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u/Sir-Matilda Ming the Merciless 14d ago
I think you're engaging in bad faith and not trying to have a dialogue
Ok hombre. I think you're less looking to have a discourse and more lecture people on a subreddit that isn't really set up for you to do that.
Would love to know where I've taken this personally though....
There is no such thing as "real socialism"
Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, Kim-Il Sung, Castro, Chavez and others would be shocked to hear this. That their regimes all turned into totalitarian shitholes that their Western ideological fellow travellers went on to disown doesn't prove there isn't such a thing as socialism; it just proves that it's a broken ideology which produces nothing but misery and oppression in practice.
With that being said, I still think there is plenty to learn from the various marxist, socialist, and communist countries that have existed and/or are in existence.
I agree. You can learn how not to run a country.
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u/Tass94 Left Visitor 14d ago edited 14d ago
First, how'd you know I was hispanic?
Well, again, I was replying to the person I replied to and the OP of the entire thread before you replied to me. Ideally we would be the ones having a dialogue, but as far as lecturing goes, I think you're the one that swooped in. I think they've probably been scared off at this point though, unfortunately. I was trying to have a discussion exploring some of the topics and tropes that are inherent to the pedantic side of this convo; it's definitely a merry-go-round, but I find there's some usefulness in trying to get an understanding of things, and if anything, to hear a center-right person's pov cause afterall, as an LV, that's why I'm here.
That's cool and all that they feel that way, but I am free to disagree with them lol. I like the implication that I am a dogmatic zealot in my pursuit of marxism and/or socialism, but I assure you, I disagree quite a lot with some of the names listed and other fellow leftists. That won't mean anything to you, but hopefully someone will read this and see that I'm trying to engage in good faith instead of just attacking things randomly. To specifically reply to what you said (though I wish you would reply to everything I said too...) my claim was there's no such thing as "real socialism" cause it's pedantic; any socialism practiced by any country is "real socialism" because it is socialism.
We can go back and forth as to misery and oppression in practice, but I expect my experiences as a mixed American Latino differ from yours in (iirc Australia? I know you're a mod around here and have seen you post quite frequently, but I can't recall at the moment where specifically) as another minority. I'm more interested in talking about tangible oppression going on relative to either of our experiences in our respective countries than I am in holding up clearly-wrong examples that we both can agree on.
We should go fishing together sometime. I think we'd have enough bait for each other to get a good haul. I'll admit though, I haven't gone since I was a child, but we can have a friendly competition of who can get the most fish. :)
edit: I think I might have you mixed up with a different moderator of the subreddit? If so, my apologies to both of you - my offer for fishing still stands though!
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u/kikikza Left Visitor 14d ago
Yes but you originally were saying Marxism and are now saying Socialism, and Socialism and Marxism aren't the same
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u/Sir-Matilda Ming the Merciless 14d ago
Chavez was a self-described Trotskyist and used the Marxist label to describe himself on numerous occasions.
The Soviet Union and Mao's China were both implementations of Marxism in practice.
Even if you want to say "Marxism has never been tried in practice" you'd still be wrong; Western intellectuals sympathetic to Marxism and socialism visited these regimes and praised their achievements when they looked to be going well, started blaming internal dissidents or Western sanctions when the cracks appeared, and memory wiped that they ever supported them when they became truly indefensible.
There's not a lot of point being anal about the difference between Marxism and socialism.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 16d ago
You know, if I were an executive at McDonalds, I would look to install little stations that are just meant to handle the $3 and under menu exclusively in high foot traffic areas.
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 16d ago
I’d rather have 115 IQ and 100 million dollars than be 145 IQ but upper middle class. Sometimes being too intelligent makes life miserable.
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u/DerrickWhiteMVP Conservatarian 9d ago
I can’t help but think that George Carlin helped to raise a generation of cynics.