Semi-Weekly Discussion Thread - December 16, 2024

[u/tuesday_mod]

INTRODUCTION

/r/tuesday is a political discussion sub for the right side of the political spectrum - from the center to the traditional/standard right (but not alt-right!) However, we're going for a big tent approach and welcome anyone with nuanced and non-standard views. We encourage dissents and discourse as long as it is accompanied with facts and evidence and is done in good faith and in a polite and respectful manner.

PURPOSE OF THE DISCUSSION THREAD

Like in r/neoliberal and r/neoconnwo, you can talk about anything you want in the Discussion Thread. So, socialize with other people, talk about politics and conservatism, tell us about your day, shitpost or literally anything under the sun. In the DT, rules such as "stay on topic" and "no Shitposting/Memes/Politician-focused comments" don't apply.

It is my hope that we can foster a sense of community through the Discussion Thread.

IMAGE FLAIRS

r/Tuesday will reward image flairs to people who write an effort post or an OC text post on certain subjects. It could be about philosophy, politics, economics, etc... Available image flairs can be seen here. If you have any special requests for specific flairs, please message the mods!

The list of previous effort posts can be found here

Previous Discussion Thread

[u/IndubitablyThoust]

I find most pro-capitalism and anti-Marxist people don't emphasize enough about how Marxists have pretty much failed at creating anything resembling a worker's state or having worker's actually seize the means of production when they take over. As well as the inability of Marxist of actually creating anything resembling a dictatorship of the proletariat, a fair democratic system of governance, and non-abusive ruling class.

The entire rhetoric of Marxism pretty much relies on the discussions of workers and their oppression and pointing out the hypocrisy of Marxists and their failures when they actually take over seems like a good way of convincing people to turn away from Marxism. Or reduce the appeal of Marxism.

[u/Spurgeoniskindacool → u/IndubitablyThoust]

I think that's the thing that most people arguing with Marxist try to point out, but Marxist just respond that Marxism was never really tried 

When I have had discussions like that in the past I have had people even argue that communist dictatorships were actually fascist and only called themselves communist. 

[u/Tass94 → u/Spurgeoniskindacool]

This goes for both of you and the OP, hopefully I can start a dialogue here rather than try to attack either of you (and vice versa).

I think the claim that Marxism has never truly been tried is somewhat true, because there (to my knowledge) has never been a Marxist country that hasn't ever had to deal with capitalist or reactionary forces trying to stomp it out of existence. It's been tried, but the argument would be that it's never been given a fair shot, which I think is reasonable.

Now whether or not if it was given a free shot, would it evolve into the utopia that people claim? Absolutely not, not while it exists simultaneously in a capitalist world, at the very least. There's an argument to be made about how nominally communist countries have slipped from their intended roots and morphed into grotesque caricatures of either their frameworks or other imperialist/capitalist countries, but if capitalist countries that range from Pinochet to the Nordics are able to carry the mantle of capitalism, then I think that should extend to communist (nominal or otherwise) as well, in that, no country is a 1:1 and each situation on the ground is unique to each country, ie, the Soviet Union absolutely morphed into a totalitarian authoritarian regime, but it was still communist.

edit: i rambled a bit here, hopefully it came out coherent lol

[u/Sir-Matilda → u/Tass94]

I think the claim that Marxism has never truly been tried is somewhat true

It's a semantic game that's been played with every socialist regime. Venezuela is the most recent example.

First it's socialist and has a huge crowd of leftwing Western intellectuals praising it. Then it's struggling and it's the fault of internal dissenters or the West. And finally it was never socialism at all and it's boorish and crass to suggest otherwise.

https://iea.org.uk/publications/socialism-the-failed-idea-that-never-dies/

[u/Tass94 → u/Sir-Matilda]

Except that it is socialist? I wouldn't suggest otherwise.

I think they had a counter-coup recently (I'm not too up on Venezuela) that tried to dispel the reforms that were put into place, but I'm not trying to play semantics here lol. Your beef is with others, not me.

[u/Sir-Matilda → u/Tass94]

I mean it seems like we're in agreement that these regimes like Venezuela were socialist and the claim that real socialism wasn't tried is crap?

[u/Tass94 → u/Sir-Matilda]

I think you're engaging in bad faith and not trying to have a dialogue, which is pretty normal for this subreddit (and you specifically). I understand this is a sensitive subject in a C-R subreddit, but this isn't the first time you've taken it personally on this subject in my experience. It's not needed.

There is no such thing as "real socialism" - each variant is unique to the country in the same way each economic or political system is unique to a country (with some flavor changes of course).

I think it's contextually and intellectually dishonest to look at these states without applying the historical factors affecting their states. Did Venezuela tank its economy by turning itself into an oil state without properly reinvesting it into their country and citizens? That's not exclusive to a socialist country, one, and two, there were other factors that led to the situation that they're in currently.

Remember, my claim is that it's somewhat true - because none of these countries have been allowed to exist without extreme duress and external pressure applied to them.

edit: With that being said, I still think there is plenty to learn from the various marxist, socialist, and communist countries that have existed and/or are in existence.

[u/Sir-Matilda → u/Tass94]

I think you're engaging in bad faith and not trying to have a dialogue

Ok hombre. I think you're less looking to have a discourse and more lecture people on a subreddit that isn't really set up for you to do that.

Would love to know where I've taken this personally though....

There is no such thing as "real socialism"

Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, Kim-Il Sung, Castro, Chavez and others would be shocked to hear this. That their regimes all turned into totalitarian shitholes that their Western ideological fellow travellers went on to disown doesn't prove there isn't such a thing as socialism; it just proves that it's a broken ideology which produces nothing but misery and oppression in practice.

With that being said, I still think there is plenty to learn from the various marxist, socialist, and communist countries that have existed and/or are in existence.

I agree. You can learn how not to run a country.

[u/Tass94 → u/Sir-Matilda]

First, how'd you know I was hispanic?

Well, again, I was replying to the person I replied to and the OP of the entire thread before you replied to me. Ideally we would be the ones having a dialogue, but as far as lecturing goes, I think you're the one that swooped in. I think they've probably been scared off at this point though, unfortunately. I was trying to have a discussion exploring some of the topics and tropes that are inherent to the pedantic side of this convo; it's definitely a merry-go-round, but I find there's some usefulness in trying to get an understanding of things, and if anything, to hear a center-right person's pov cause afterall, as an LV, that's why I'm here.

That's cool and all that they feel that way, but I am free to disagree with them lol. I like the implication that I am a dogmatic zealot in my pursuit of marxism and/or socialism, but I assure you, I disagree quite a lot with some of the names listed and other fellow leftists. That won't mean anything to you, but hopefully someone will read this and see that I'm trying to engage in good faith instead of just attacking things randomly. To specifically reply to what you said (though I wish you would reply to everything I said too...) my claim was there's no such thing as "real socialism" cause it's pedantic; any socialism practiced by any country is "real socialism" because it is socialism.

We can go back and forth as to misery and oppression in practice, but I expect my experiences as a mixed American Latino differ from yours in (iirc Australia? I know you're a mod around here and have seen you post quite frequently, but I can't recall at the moment where specifically) as another minority. I'm more interested in talking about tangible oppression going on relative to either of our experiences in our respective countries than I am in holding up clearly-wrong examples that we both can agree on.

We should go fishing together sometime. I think we'd have enough bait for each other to get a good haul. I'll admit though, I haven't gone since I was a child, but we can have a friendly competition of who can get the most fish. :)

edit: I think I might have you mixed up with a different moderator of the subreddit? If so, my apologies to both of you - my offer for fishing still stands though!

[u/kikikza → u/Sir-Matilda]

Yes but you originally were saying Marxism and are now saying Socialism, and Socialism and Marxism aren't the same

[u/Sir-Matilda → u/kikikza]

Chavez was a self-described Trotskyist and used the Marxist label to describe himself on numerous occasions.

The Soviet Union and Mao's China were both implementations of Marxism in practice.

Even if you want to say "Marxism has never been tried in practice" you'd still be wrong; Western intellectuals sympathetic to Marxism and socialism visited these regimes and praised their achievements when they looked to be going well, started blaming internal dissidents or Western sanctions when the cracks appeared, and memory wiped that they ever supported them when they became truly indefensible.

There's not a lot of point being anal about the difference between Marxism and socialism.

[u/Nklst → u/Sir-Matilda]

Now I have to take a shot.