r/dndmemes Mar 17 '23

Would anything break if you let Rogues do sneak attacks with strength? eDgY rOuGe

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5.7k Upvotes

1.7k

u/TheStylemage Mar 17 '23

I mean they CAN sneak attack with strength, they just need a finesse weapon, that is what the Robarian build is based around.

That said nothing would really break.

644

u/Striking_Compote2093 Mar 17 '23

The biggest power gain could be polearms i think. Polearm master can lead to a lot more opportunity attacks, and sneak attacks as a result.

442

u/chain_letter Mar 17 '23

Sentinel, get whip proficiency from a race, hands have rapier and whip. Rapier almost all the time, but when someone tries to move out of that whip range, even with a disengage, SLAP

39

u/Beldizar Mar 17 '23

So, odd question that I never caught the answer to, and it applies to monsters more than PCs, but it fits this question. If a creature (PC or monster) has multiple attack forms which have different levels of reach, when do other creatures provoke attacks through movement? Is it when they leave any reach, or is it when they leave the largest reach?

56

u/chain_letter Mar 17 '23

Leaving any reach will provoke an attack of opportunity.

45

u/Machinimix Essential NPC Mar 17 '23

And to expand on this, any attack they have in their statblock that has the reach for the triggered provoke can be used. So a creature with an adjacent attack, a 10ft reach and a 15ft reach could use all 3 against someone running from adjacent, but could only use the 15ft one when something moves from 15ft away from them.

63

u/SethQ Mar 17 '23

Could use any*, not all. Only get one reaction and therefore only one attempt to AoO per round.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Did they even bring the "combat reflexes -allows for additional AoO" feat from 3.5 to 5e?

3

u/Tsonmur Wizard Mar 18 '23

Not really, cavalier gets something like it as a high level feature, but no feats like it

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u/G0ldenEye5 Mar 17 '23

Probably important to point out that they have the option to use any one of their three attacks, since a creature only gets one reaction, but otherwise correct

17

u/Machinimix Essential NPC Mar 17 '23

They get minimum 1; some are able to have more (see Hydra or Marilith).

3

u/clutzyninja Mar 17 '23

So RAW for AOO is leaving your reach. It doesn't say the reach of any of your wielded weapons. That says to me if you're wielding a whip, your reach is 10 feet, period, and you only get an AOO if an enemy leaves THAT range

4

u/chain_letter Mar 18 '23

2

u/clutzyninja Mar 18 '23

Fair enough. Of course Crawford offers his interpretations, and are not truly official. I happen to disagree with him here

-2

u/Kris_Pantalones Mar 18 '23

This is correct, in my option and by sage advice, I think. It's when a creature leaves a threatened area, so having reach means you don't get AoO when they move 5ft away from right next to you and are still within 10ft. There's nothing that says you get to pick which range you want to threaten at a given moment. Your max reach would determine that.

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u/mr_comfortfit Mar 17 '23

Opportunity attack is a reaction so you would only be able to use it once in a round even if you are dual wielding

0

u/clutzyninja Mar 17 '23

It's when you leave melee range. If you leave one option's range but are still in range of another? You haven't left melee range, in my interpretation.

My call is when you are leaving the range that the monster can melee attack you at all

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24

u/RangerManSam Mar 17 '23

Need the duel wielder feat

118

u/bwaresunlight Mar 17 '23

No you don't. You can attack with either weapon for the opportunity attack, just not both. He's saying you'd only use the whip once in a while for the purpose of getting targets at reach.

-56

u/Deathangle75 Mar 17 '23

But pole arm master also gives a bonus action attack, which for the whip rapier combo to have you’ll need the dual Wielder feat. Bonus to ac helps make up for it though.

91

u/adragonlover5 Mar 17 '23

You're NOT making bonus action attacks in this hypothetical build.

You are using the rapier for the attack action, that's it. Then you are using the whip for opportunity attacks.

10

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '23

So for the sake of conversation, what should I be doing with my bonus action if I were to copy this?

61

u/adragonlover5 Mar 17 '23

You're a rogue. Dash, Disengage, Hide.

Edit: Use the Tasha feature Steady Aim.

15

u/stormscape10x Mar 17 '23

And depending on your archetype you probably have at least one or two more options like summoning a weapon or fooling someone into advantage.

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u/bwaresunlight Mar 17 '23

You still don't. There are zero rules that say you can't hold a weapon in each hand. The OP didn't say anything about trying to attack as a bonus action with the whip. If he were, then yes they would need the DW Feat. They are just saying that they have a whip on one hand and a rapier in the other so they will make their normal attack with the rapier. The whip would be used to attack targets leaving the ten ft range.

-7

u/K4G3N4R4 Mar 17 '23

I know RAW doesn't have rules for off hand combat, so this doesn't really matter to your argument, but it definitely feels like RAI would treat all off hand attacks with disadvantage as though you were dual wielding normally. Functionally this build is dual wielding, and then just only partial attacking to avoid penalties with the off hand attack.

Switching dominant hand weapons would fall under the draw while moving rules easily enough, I could even see some tables allowing it as a free action, but if not, you then have to manage what weapon is in your dominant hand to have the option. The dual wielder feat functionally takes on the role of learning to use your off hand to attack. This all plays of RAI and mechanical feel though.

5

u/Electricdino Mar 17 '23

RAW the only penalty to offhand attacks (called two weapon fighting in 5e) is not getting to add your attack bonus to the damage. Where are you getting that there aren't rules for offhand attacks? It's written right in the PHB.

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u/K4G3N4R4 Mar 18 '23

Right, I misremembered. The rest of the comment about shenanigans to avoid penalties with the whip is still valid though.

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u/chain_letter Mar 17 '23

nope, this is not two-weapon fighting.

You're just holding a whip while doing your normal rogue stuff with the rapier, waiting for the opportunity attack to go off on the whip's range for huge sneak attack damage.

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u/Afraid-Adeptness-926 Mar 17 '23

The point of PAM is to hit when they enter your reach, though. It is much easier to proc for bonus sneak attacks (in the world where this was allowed).

2

u/clutzyninja Mar 17 '23 edited Mar 17 '23

That's assuming their DM allows you to switch weapons for free. Which, is that's why you're doing it, to exploit range for attacks if opportunity? Nope

Edit: disregard, I missed we were talking about keeping the whip in an off hand. Though I feel like raw there is you ONLY get an opportunity attack if an enemy leaves your 10 foot range, since that is now your reach

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u/Shacky_Rustleford Mar 17 '23

Oh no, the rogue is doing competitive damage, what a disaster

11

u/FerretAres Mar 17 '23

Isn’t sneak attack once per turn? Since an AOO isn’t on your turn would it apply?

12

u/lagonborn Mar 18 '23

Hey this guy actually reads the rules! Get 'im lads!

6

u/Wellofdoog Mar 18 '23

Once per turn, yes. Not once per round. Not even once on your turn.
In 5e, this makes sneak attack AOOs valid.

However, they have actually changed the wording of sneak attack in the One DnD playtest so that it can only occur on the rogue‘s turn, so an argument can be made that only one sneak attack per round was RAI in 5e.

3

u/KarashiGensai Mar 18 '23

Jeremy Crawford actually addressed this in the newest feedback video. The intention for the change was trying to move player features to their own turn in hopes of streamlining combat. However, the feedback heavily says the time savings is not worth the loss of off-turn sneak attacks. I see them reverting this change in the next playtest version of the rogue.

6

u/Ignisiumest Mar 17 '23

A rogue wielding a glaive or double bladed staff as a polearm sounds really cool honestly

5

u/TheStylemage Mar 17 '23

Yeah it would be good, but without HA it would come at a defensive penalty.

3

u/general_peabo Mar 17 '23

I like to imagine that sneak attack with a pole arm can only work if you pretend to be a statue. Like an Armos from the Zelda games.

0

u/lagonborn Mar 18 '23

Sneak attack can be used once per turn, on your turn, not as part of opportunity attacks which are reactions outside your turn.

0

u/Optimal_Hunter Mar 18 '23

I thought sneak attack couldn't be applied to opportunity attacks?

-20

u/Futur3_ah4ad Ranger Mar 17 '23

Sneak Attack only works once a turn though, unless by some poorly written rules they can get Sneak Attack on Opportunity Attacks?

37

u/Ranzora Mar 17 '23

Once per turn, not once per round. Each player has a turn, but once it has gone 'round the table the round ends

20

u/freedomustang Mar 17 '23

It’s once per turn not once on your turn or once per round. So you can sneak attack once on your turn and once off your turn through an opportunity attack or some other off turn attack.

Ex brace, riposte maneuvers, held action, opportunity attacks, commanding strike (if used on you).

Most of these are very situational or use very limited resources so it really doesn’t make anything busted.

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u/Rosu_Aprins Mar 17 '23

I think bones would break but feel free to disagree

21

u/stopyouveviolatedthe Mar 17 '23

There’s a joke that the rouge than can do insane damage just takes a kidney or two per sneak attack if it was strength based I’d imagine that they’d just take a whole bone

2

u/LordHengar Mar 18 '23

I was once in a campaign with a dwarven robarian. He got an elven blacksmith to make him a finesse battleaxe. The DM just said "yeah its a really swooshy battle axe because elves are like that." His real hangup was wrapping his head around 'reckless attack' + 'sneak attack'. The player's justification was, "They won't expect me to just leave my guard open and go straight for the throat, and they definitely won't expect me to do it multiple times in a row"

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u/rangogogo Mar 17 '23

I perosnllay think longsowrds should BE dex based. But on the Other Hand, i Always get told to stfu Up when i try to Bring hsitoricaly accurate Shit Into dnd

28

u/sailingpirateryan Mar 17 '23

Yeah, if modeling reality was the goal, then archery would be strength (because warbow draw weights) and swords would be dexterity... but at this stage, D&D is only any good at modeling the D&D experience... and we love the D&D experience because otherwise we wouldn't be here.

11

u/_Bl4ze Wizard Mar 17 '23

Probably would be Dex to hit, Str to damage? Having the strength of ten men to draw back a personal ballista doesn't matter if you can't hit the broad side of a barn.

15

u/Funderstruck Mar 17 '23

And that’s what older editions did. And Pathfinder still does. Dex to damage was rare, because it made more sense.

3

u/GearyDigit Artificer Mar 17 '23

To my knowledge the only Dex-to-damage in PF2e is a singular rogue subclass (and therefore can't be dipped into), and that's only on melee finesse or agile weapon attacks

2

u/Machinimix Essential NPC Mar 17 '23

Just finesse weapon attacks (not unarmed attacks with finesse), and yeah only the Thief racket. Sounds amazing, but how damage grows in pf2e means that the 2-3 extra damage you can do as a thief early isn't much when you're dealing 10d6+11 per swing late game (or 6d6+5 midgame). Especially when the scoundrel is keeping enemies perma-flat-foot and the ruffian is stabbing people with reach and using strength as their main stat. But the thief unique debilitations at level 10 are easily my favorite ones.

-2

u/pilstrom Mar 17 '23

Sword that weighs several kgs should be just dexterity based? Come on

3

u/sailingpirateryan Mar 17 '23

For swords specifically, yes, since a well-balanced blade has its center so close to the handle that the weight doesn't impair its nimbleness (and quality swords weigh far less than is commonly believed; the wall-hangers you get at the Ren Faire aren't quality blades).

Your edge-alignment and the cutting edge of your blade are far more important than the force of your swing when it comes to damage potential on a sword.

That's reality, but D&D mechanics don't model reality. They model D&D.

4

u/StarstruckEchoid Goblin Deez Nuts Mar 17 '23

Even the heaviest claymores in the world only weigh 2.5 kg (5.5 lbs). You do not need to be strong to wield swords effectively.

1

u/Mal-Ravanal Chaotic Stupid Mar 17 '23

You can find swords heavier than that. A zweihänder can easily weigh ~4kg and up. As for how much strength you need, there’s waaaayyyy too much variety for a blanket statement. A roman gladius doesn’t take much strength at all, a greatsword takes a fair bit to use effectively for any significant period of time.

6

u/ChessGM123 Rules Lawyer Mar 17 '23

I think the reason that certain weapons are dex based and certain weapons are str based is more to do with the fact that some weapons are good at hitting fine points in the enemy’s defenses like rapiers or daggers while others use shear force like war hammers.

DnD differs from history because in history you either hit with you sword and cut them or they have armor you can’t get through, rarely is it possible to actually have the strength to hit through plate. In DnD though adventures have a lot more strength than regular people, so you can actually hit through armor with brute strength alone. Keep in mind AC is not just a representation of the enemy’s ability to dodge, it’s a representation of how hard it is to hit AND deal damage to them. Like a tarrasque is super easy to hit, but to actually deal damage to it is an entirely different story because of its think hide.

3

u/Magenta_Logistic Mar 17 '23

The typos and randomly capitalized words make this hard to read.

-2

u/rangogogo Mar 17 '23

Yea. Ive given Up on trying to correct the AutoCoreCt.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '23

I think at the very least, 2 handing a longsword should be dex.

It doesn't take incredible strength to use a longsword when 2 handing. At that point, it's all skill.

24

u/Zanthiel_ Warlock Mar 17 '23

Dex is broken enough as it is. Plus weapons in 5e are generic a longsword isn’t necessarily a longsword It could literally be a huge butcher knife, or an arming sword, or a Sinclair, or a guillottine blade with a handle on one end.

4

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/Zanthiel_ Warlock Mar 17 '23

Thank you have a longsword 🔪

2

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 18 '23

Only broken relative to strength.

And I don't think +1 damage from a longsword is going to be bridging the martial/caster divide.

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u/holytindertwig Mar 17 '23

As a longsword practitioner in HEMA, this is by far one of my biggest pet peeves of dnd. We are literally told not to fight like a peasant swinging with strength and instead redirecting, binding and being quick on the thrust etc.

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u/holytindertwig Mar 17 '23

And another thing greats word should be dex to hit as well. I’ve studied montante and it is all flowing moves and sequences. Halfswording shouod be strength based though and should be able to lead into grapples and throws

4

u/duskfinger67 Mar 17 '23

I feel like Dex to hit and Str to damage would be a pretty good fit for most weapons, not that Martials need another ability to juggle.

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u/HappilyHead Mar 17 '23

Give a longsword the finesse feature and call it elvish crafted or the sort. Works like a charm.

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u/DonkeyPunchMojo Mar 17 '23

Ye olde Sunblade. Easy for the rogue to hide and converts sneak attack damage to radiant, to boot!

59

u/AttitudeAdjuster Mar 17 '23

Building your character around a specific item works if the DM agrees to get you one, or if you're an adventurers league player

10

u/FinalLimit Team Sorcerer Mar 17 '23

I’m unfamiliar with Adventurer’s League rules, why can they do that?

29

u/Shirlenator Mar 17 '23

You get treasure points as you play, which you can use to buy magic items. This is outside of the game so doesn't require DM fiat.

13

u/AttitudeAdjuster Mar 17 '23

Somewhat old rules, but broadly the same. They've got rid of treasure points, you now get items determined by the adventure

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u/AttitudeAdjuster Mar 17 '23

So broadly the AL system is designed to allow you to port your character from one table to another, and from one adventure to another, so every item your party finds in a module or official adventure is considered to be owned by every character in the party. You can also trade items on a basis of the same rarity (rare for rare, uncommon for uncommon) between characters.

So the module that awards the sunblade (the barrows of solina, although I think there's one in DMM) is quite popular to run, as it's a valuable item for trade, or to equip a character.

4

u/Komrade_atomic Mar 18 '23

Hapless evil guard: that shadow’s looking awfully bright, it’s probably noth- AHHHH

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u/MightyMaus1944 Mar 17 '23

I do this for my players regularly. Yea, it technically makes the rogue more powerful as they now have a d10 sneak attack weapon, but in my opinion that's still less powerful than a duel wield rapier setup.

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u/RdoubleM Mar 17 '23

A heavy crossbow is 1d10, and you can sneak attack with it RAW. Nothing would change much, DPR-wise

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u/MightyMaus1944 Mar 17 '23

I'm ashamed I forgot about the heavy crossbow, as quite literally every character I have ever played uses one.

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u/Hazearil Mar 17 '23

Rogues are already built in such a way that it just matters if they hit or not. The damage from the weapon itself is irrelevant eventually. Great, with your longsword you do on average 1 damage more than a rapier, big deal. You don't even get Extra Attack to increase that 1 damage further. And If you use only one hand, it's 1d8, the same as a rapier. And Dual Wielding gives more opportunity for sneak attacks, your main damage source, and thus is better than a single (slightly) stronger weapon.

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u/BurpingHamBirmingham Ranger Mar 17 '23

Ehh you need the Dual Wielder feat and your bonus action to make dual rapiers work, and the benefit there is really just getting an extra opportunity to attack (upping your odds to land a sneak attack). Seeing as rogues can generally use their bonus action to get sneak attack anyways (usually by getting advantage, also upping your odds), seems like a lot of work just for maybe an extra d8 of damage.

25

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '23

You'd actually only be bumping a d6 to a d8. Short swords are light weapons and can be used in the offhand without penalty.

It's really only beneficial for landing your sneak attack if you missed the first attack.

2

u/Hazearil Mar 17 '23

Short swords are light weapons and can be used in the offhand without penalty.

From what I see, both weapons need to be light, not just the second one.

9

u/AluminumSpartan Mar 17 '23

If you have the dual wield feat, you can ignore that rule. So dual rapiers as mentioned above, is possible, but you need the feat.

1

u/Hazearil Mar 17 '23

So then you get a feat for +1 AC and +2 damage? Doesn't sound like it is worth it. The damage is negligible, and going for +2 dex gives +1 AC and +1 damage, along with many other things that rely on Dex. Or if the AC is very important to you, go for Moderately Armored to still get +1 Dex and the option to use a shield if you have enough faith in your attack roll to hit consistently to not need a second attack.

14

u/AluminumSpartan Mar 17 '23

You definently don't take dual wield to be optimized. You do it because the visual of your character swinging 2 longswords or rapiers around is awesome

2

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '23 edited Mar 17 '23

The point I was trying to make is that the main benefit of the bonus attack is activating sneak attack, which is the bulk of his damage. If you dont hit on the main attack, you can now use your bonus action to attack again.

Dual wield also costs an ABI, why not just get a +1 on dex and use light weapons instead of the extra d2 on damage?

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u/pilstrom Mar 17 '23

That was his point: you can just use two short swords and call it a day, no need for a feat or anything

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u/MysteriousDraz Mar 17 '23

The moonblade from the dmg is elvish and has a chance of having the finesse property so it RAW* that long swords can have finesse on a legendary sword

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u/forsale90 DM (Dungeon Memelord) Mar 17 '23

Doesn't give mithral also finesse? Or is this a Homebrew I misremembered?

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u/pilstrom Mar 17 '23

There are no official rules on mithral weapons in 5e from what I remember or can find, only armor. So, probably a homebrew

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u/forsale90 DM (Dungeon Memelord) Mar 17 '23

Thank you!

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u/ReddyBabas Mar 17 '23

I mean, real-life longswords already require a lot more dexterity than strength, so imo longswords should already be finesse (and bows should use strength but that's for another day)

12

u/freedomustang Mar 17 '23 edited Mar 17 '23

A STR requirement would make sense for bows imo but once you’re strong enough to consistently draw and fire the bow extra strength won’t make it hit harder or more accurate. You’re limited by the bow and accuracy not by your own strength.

13

u/QuietusEmissary Mar 17 '23

That was basically how it worked in 3.5. Your Dex determined accuracy with the bow, and you chose what Strength the bow was built for, which added damage, IIRC. But if you weren't strong enough, you suffered a penalty. And extra Strength beyond the bow's rating didn't add to damage.

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u/_Whiskey_6 Mar 17 '23

Funnily enough I had a warlock go through an identity shift and through some convoluted things involving gods, she became a Paladin. That's when an issue arose; this character wasn't based on STR, but dex for any martial abilities. The solution? A specially crafted, thin-blade longsword that works off finesse!

3

u/A_Good_Redditor553 Horny Bard Mar 17 '23

Kinda like a great Epee or maybe an Estoc?

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u/_Whiskey_6 Mar 17 '23

Essentially, now that you word it like that!

2

u/A_Good_Redditor553 Horny Bard Mar 17 '23

Those are some cool swords tbh

2

u/_Whiskey_6 Mar 17 '23

Very cool!

4

u/freedomustang Mar 17 '23

Yeah a d8 vs d10 is so minor plus longswords are cool.

I house rule allow longswords to be finesse when wielded in 2 hands. They are similar in weight to a rapier and with two hands are quite quick due to the added control/leverage.

1

u/StevelandCleamer Rules Lawyer Mar 17 '23

Finesse, but only when use one-handed.

Opens up a ton of magic weapon options without being a buff to damage when using the base item, since Rapier was already a d8 finesse weapon.

7

u/freedomustang Mar 17 '23

One hand makes much less sense for finesse than two hands.

In one the weight is similar to a rapier but balanced more toward the tip rather than the hilt making it slower and more unwieldy. In two hands a longsword is much quicker than in one and allows for more finesse style fighting with quick cuts/stabs and feints.

1

u/StevelandCleamer Rules Lawyer Mar 17 '23

Hmm... I guess it could be argued that it is a trade-off between one attack with a d10 versus potential two attacks with d6 (d8 with feat).

You're still getting more Sneak Attack opportunities by Two-Weapon Fighting, which makes your average damage higher.

I'm approaching this from more of a gameplay perspective than a realism perspective, and it isn't particularly good to make one weapon clearly superior or you get a blandness as almost everyone just uses the "best" option.

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u/Braincrab2 Mar 17 '23

Honestly, let rogues sneak attack with whatever weapon they want.

They've only got the one attack per turn, so it's a tiny difference on average, especially compared with the actual sneak attack dice, whether they use a dagger or a great sword.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '23

I really want to make a plasmoid arcane trickster that looks like silly putty and acts like a cartoon, uses a Maul with sneak attack because it's hilarious and it looks like a giant mallet.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '23

I know thrown weapons technically don’t count for sneak attack but you could ask your DM if you can use light hammers

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

I mean, tavern brawler so I can throw pies? Who cares if I don't get sneak attack.

10

u/freedomustang Mar 17 '23

Only potential issue is a PAM rogue getting consistent 2 sneak attacks per round. But you can easily house rule that the PAM opportunity attack doesn’t work with sneak attack.

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u/Tiky-Do-U DM (Dungeon Memelord) Mar 17 '23

2 attempts at sneak attack, sneak attack can still only apply to 1 attack per turn. (Unless you mean the reaction enter range attack which is not really consistent)

7

u/freedomustang Mar 17 '23

I did refer to the reaction attack not the bonus action. Maybe not super consistent with every encounter it would be the most consistent of any of the other ways to get additional sneak attacks which would make it the ‘best’ way to build a rogue. At least combat speaking.

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u/DrRichtoffen Sorcerer Mar 17 '23

I just want to make a weebish rogue wielding a greatsword flavored as a big fuckoff katana, so that I can roleplay as a ronin making singular precise strikes.

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u/ClumsyGamer2802 Rogue Mar 17 '23

Hey, have you heard of this game called Pathf- [gets shot in the back of the head]

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u/Asplomer Mar 17 '23

No, not even then. Ruffian rogues can only sneak attack with simple weapons and agile/finesse ones and longswords are neither of the 3

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u/Maltavious Mar 17 '23

It works if its 1E.

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u/drama-guy Mar 17 '23

Preach it Brother!

5

u/TheRedSpecial Mar 17 '23

I had a player take martial weapon proficiency in 1E as a rogue and watching him crit backstab with a greatsword on the regular sure was something to behold.

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u/Suspicious-Shock-934 Mar 17 '23

Pf1e Is best pf.

1

u/Asplomer Mar 17 '23

Also yes I blocked out 1e from my mind despite remembering that slayers could totally do it with great swords and other stuff and their features being the same

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u/Asplomer Mar 17 '23

Also yes I blocked out 1e from my mind despite remembering that slayers could totally do it with great swords and other stuff and their features being the same

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u/ClumsyGamer2802 Rogue Mar 17 '23

OP mentioned using strength and sneak attacks in the title, that's why I brought it up.

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u/Scary_Equal_2867 Mar 17 '23

It's for when it's time for heavy stealth

2

u/Self-ReferentialName DM (Dungeon Memelord) Mar 17 '23

You could pick up an ancestral weapon feat; iirc hobgoblins have it, but yeah, not by default.

5

u/Asplomer Mar 17 '23

Sneak attack only could work on a finesse or agile weapon normally. Ruffian, which is str based like the post suggests only adds simple weapons to the list. Taking a hobgoblin ancestry weapons (or any other ancestry for what matters) feat only affects for the purpose of determining proficency, so a longsword would be treated as a simple weapon when it comes to proficiency but not sneak attack. Different is if it's an elf picking up their feat for an elven curved sword which is finesse and thus ok

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '23

Oh got he was sh-

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u/stopyouveviolatedthe Mar 17 '23

Oh no he shit that ain’t good I’d rather get sh-

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u/CorbinStarlight Mar 17 '23

This is giving me ancient Candlejack meme memori

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u/ClayeySilt Mar 17 '23

What a stupid meme. I never understood why someone thought this was even funny in the first place. Anyone who enjoys this meme is a literal child.

It's not like saying Candlejack actually does anyth

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u/StevelandCleamer Rules Lawyer Mar 17 '23

Guy, who is this Candlejack that you keep talking abo

5

u/Jaijoles Mar 17 '23

From Freakazoid. He’d appear when people said “Candlejack” and ti

3

u/Ilwrath Chaotic Stupid Mar 17 '23 edited Mar 18 '23

And here I thought there was a Sniper, not Candleja

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u/Jared6197 Mar 17 '23

Phew, good thing that sniper took him out before he could finish saying Candlejack. That's a fate worse tha

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u/Jomega6 DM (Dungeon Memelord) Mar 17 '23

Nope, never heard of it. It does not get recommended on every post about a quirk or flaw in dnd. Is it a flavor of ice cream?

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u/TheWoodsman42 Forever DM Mar 17 '23 edited Mar 17 '23

Allowing Rogues to use STR for Sneak Attacks opens them up as a great MC class, kinda like how many people use Warlocks. But it's really not that terrible of a decision. I'm sure I'm missing a few reasons for/against it, but whatever.

I think they included it as a means of "futureproofing" the class for any subclasses or feats that may alter how Sneak Attack could be gained or used. Ultimately though, it looks like that was never put into play.

EDIT: I'm aware you can use STR with Sneak Attack, provided the weapon has the Finesse property, which Longswords do not. My response is in regards to the post as a whole, answering whether it would break the game if you allowed Rogues to use STR for Sneak Attack with Longswords, or any other weapon.

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u/CinnamonEspeon Mar 17 '23

In the earliest playtests they could sneak attack with any weapon they were proficient in, this was ultimately changed because rogue barbarian with raging sneak attacks existed and was as horrific as one might guess lol. That said, mono-class rogue sneak attacking with anything won't really break anything.

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u/SufficientType1794 Mar 17 '23

This is more an issue with how shit Barbarian is after level 5 than the multiclass being powerful.

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u/Jfelt45 Mar 17 '23

What would you multi barb with after 5? Currently playing a zealot barb in curse of strahd at lv6 and I feel very strong though I have great stats (20str18con16dex)

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u/Illoney Rules Lawyer Mar 17 '23

Rogues can use Sneak Attack when attacking with strength, it just needs to be a Finesse weapon.

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u/TheWoodsman42 Forever DM Mar 17 '23

I'm aware you can use STR with Sneak Attack, provided the weapon has the Finesse property, which Longswords do not. My response is in regards to the post as a whole, answering whether it would break the game if you allowed Rogues to use STR for Sneak Attack with Longswords, or any other weapon.

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u/CinnamonEspeon Mar 17 '23

In the earliest playtests they could sneak attack with any weapon they were proficient in, this was ultimately changed because rogue barbarian with raging sneak attacks existed and was as horrific as one might guess lol. That said, mono-class rogue sneak attacking with anything won't really break anything.

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u/RutabagaFew697 Warlock Mar 17 '23

They can use strength for sneak attack, they just gonna be limited to max of 1d8 (rapier) damage from weapons. You can use sneak attack with weapons with finesse property.. or ranged weapons.. this however does not mean you have to use dex for finesse weapons.. Finesse means you can use either strength or dex for attack and damage rolls

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u/TheWoodsman42 Forever DM Mar 17 '23

I'm aware you can use STR with Sneak Attack, provided the weapon has the Finesse property, which Longswords do not. My response is in regards to the post as a whole, answering whether it would break the game if you allowed Rogues to use STR for Sneak Attack with Longswords, or any other weapon.

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u/RutabagaFew697 Warlock Mar 17 '23

Well longsword no... greatsword yes...

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u/SomeGuyTM Mar 17 '23

Oh no. The rogue does, like, 2.5 more damage on average at the cost of being more MAD and being generally worse at the Rogue Skills.

(All seriousness, though, it's less of a buff than when WoTC added Booming and Green-Flame blade as cantrips)

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u/0c4rt0l4 Rules Lawyer Mar 17 '23

You can still use strength to attack with finesse weapons. Ever heard of the Rogue/Barbarian multiclass? You can use Reckless Attack every round to get advantage and sneak attack, despite using STR to attack with a rapier

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u/TheWoodsman42 Forever DM Mar 17 '23

I'm aware you can use STR with Sneak Attack, provided the weapon has the Finesse property, which Longswords do not. My response is in regards to the post as a whole, answering whether it would break the game if you allowed Rogues to use STR for Sneak Attack with Longswords, or any other weapon.

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u/PaulOwnzU Chaotic Stupid Mar 17 '23

Forget letting rogues sneak attack without finesse, where tf the finesse bludgeoning weapons like Saps and Tonfas, let me play daredevil as a rogue you fks

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u/GusPlus Mar 17 '23

Quarterstaff should be a finesse weapon.

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u/PaulOwnzU Chaotic Stupid Mar 17 '23

Exactly. Pretty much the only ones that use it, Monks, pretty much already use it like it's finesse. Aswell as some spell casters I guess, situational but being able to use dex instead of str would be great

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u/ExHatchman Mar 17 '23

Grappler feat for advantage against grappled opponents, expertise in athletics for big grapple check, race with powerful build.

The Prison Shiv Build

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u/Doobie_Howitzer Mar 17 '23

Bugbear Rogue is fucking insane for this

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u/bwaresunlight Mar 17 '23

They already can do sneak attacks with strength, as long as they are using a Finesse weapon. Finesse weapons don't HAVE to be used with Dex. The finesse property makes the weapon flexible for use with STR or DEX.

I have a Loxodon STR Rogue with grappler and tavern brawler and a single level dip in fighter for unarmed fighting style. I grapple a target with my trunk and dual wield finesse weapons using STR. I hold them in place with my trunk and stab the shit out of them over and over. Unarmed fighting style let's me do a d4 of damage when they are grappled too. This character wears a pinstripe hat and a fedora. He's a gangster known as Tommy Two Toes.

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u/asirkman Mar 18 '23

Fucking epic.

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u/Jarjarthejedi Mar 17 '23

I was sure I remembered rogues being able to sneak attack with anything, so I went and checked, and yeah, both 3.5e and pathfinder 1, rogue sneak attack was just "catch them flat-footed, deal extra damage", with no weapon limits (aside from "nonlethal weapons deal nonlethal sneak attack", because you had to specify EVERYTHING in that rules system).

4E is absurdly limiting, in addition to the normal triggers, you have to be wielding a hand crossbow, shortbow, light blade (daggers), or sling. That's it. Absurdly limiting for no reason at all! It's not like 3.5e rogues were even good!

And both 5e and P2E require finesse weapons (P2E adds agile to the list, but that doesn't increase the limit by much).

Why in the world did both Paizo and WotC decide that rogues needed a nerf to a fun little feature like that? Very strange!

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u/ProfessorOwl_PhD Mar 18 '23

Look, as much as I love PF1/3.x, getting precision damage while swinging a greatclub or whatever makes not a single goddamn lick of sense. PF1's Swashbuckler went too far in limiting them to only light or one handed piercing melee weapons, but something had to be done about rogues somehow gently sliding a gnome piston maul between the ribs.

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u/Zanthiel_ Warlock Mar 17 '23

Solasta Crown of the Magister (uses 5e) has a subclass called the hoodlum that allows sneak attack with non-finesse weapons and gives you martial weapon proficiency.

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u/Ok_Banana_5614 Ranger Mar 17 '23

I’m actually in a campaign where this found use lmao. Monk in the party took their first level in rogue so the longsword was their best damage option weapon-wise through dedicated weapon. Technically you can’t sneak attack with it but the DM overruled that anything that uses Dex can sneak attack, since that’s essentially what the rules are

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u/mesalikes Mar 18 '23

That's a good dm.

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u/shadygecko37 Mar 17 '23

I mean technically you can, it only says you need to use a finesse weapon, NOT that you need to roll with dex.

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u/BushidoKnight86 Mar 17 '23

Trade longsword for proficiency with scimitars so they can sneak attack with something other than piercing weapons, please! This has annoyed me since 5e first came out.

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u/E01000010 Monk Mar 17 '23

“Break” might be a stretch, but low level Fighter/Rouges cheesing great sword sneak attacks into existence for 3d6 sneak attacks at level 2 would become a thing. It falls off when Extra Attacks kick in for other martials, but it’s still one of those funny multi-class builds that over perform for exactly 3 levels.

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u/kolhie Mar 17 '23

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u/MCMC_to_Serfdom Mar 17 '23

You can deal sneak attack damage with any simple weapon, in addition to the weapons listed in the sneak attack class feature.

pulling from that feature to collate those lists:

You can deal sneak attack damage with any simple weapon, in addition to [with an agile or finesse melee weapon, an agile or finesse unarmed attack, a ranged weapon attack, or a ranged unarmed attack]

Longsword fits none of these categories, sadly.

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u/kolhie Mar 17 '23

I was just referencing the title of the post.

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u/CreativeName1137 Rules Lawyer Mar 17 '23

So that you can use a Sunblade

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u/TheWoodsman42 Forever DM Mar 17 '23

If you are proficient with shortswords or longswords, you are proficient with the sun blade.

Says that right in the text of the Sun Blade.

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u/Matthais_Hat Mar 18 '23

rogues CAN do sneak attacks with strength. you can make a strength attack with a rapier or a dagger and still get sneak attack on it.

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u/Metalrift DM (Dungeon Memelord) Mar 18 '23

Ah yes I’d like to use a greataxe as a rogue and sneak attack pls

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u/ApexLegend117 Mar 17 '23

You can and I have!

Expertise Athletics and take one level in Barbarian, and get the Grapple feat.

Boom, level 2 you have a +7 with advantage to grapple someone and stab them with a finesse weapon.

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u/dnd5eveteran Mar 17 '23

My question is, would you allow Sneak Attacks to work with unarmed strikes if you've got a level in Monk, thus allowing you to choose strength or dexterity for your unarmed strikes (essentially the finesse property as a class feature)? There's several RAW reasons this doesn't work, like unarmed strikes not counting as weapon attacks, the monk feature not explicitly granting "finesse" with your unarmed strikes, but is there a reason to NOT do it?

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u/Fallen_Gaara Mar 17 '23

I have a monk rogue player in my game. I let them do a little "training" on downtime to learn to do a sneak attack with their unarmed strike.

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u/0c4rt0l4 Rules Lawyer Mar 17 '23

like unarmed strikes not counting as weapon attacks

Unarmed strikes are weapon attacks, they are just not made with a finesse weapon. Also, they have to be weapon attacks, since there are only two types of attacks in the game, weapon or spell attacks

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u/Lord_Jub_Jub Mar 17 '23 edited Mar 17 '23

So I’ve played two versions of the same character with slightly different builds. They were a strength based rogue, and in one I was allowed to use a homebrew subclass and in another I used a PHB subclass.

In the homebrew one, the main feature it had was allowing me to do sneak attack damage with any melee weapon attack I was proficient with, so long as it did not have the heavy property. This theoretically meant the strongest weapon I could use with sneak attack was a Lance, but I never got proficiency so I ended up using a longsword. This build had athletics expertise and grappler, so it used a two handed longsword when I wanted damage, and switched to one handed when I wanted to grapple. Some of the later abilities this homebrew had were unbalanced but early on with just that, it was a slight damage boost traded off with my stealth only being so-so.

The second time I used i believe the thief subclass though assassin could also work (it just didn’t fit this particular character). With that one you need to remember you don’t need to use your dexterity, the weapon just needs to be ranged or have finesse. So I could still be strength based and use a shortsword, the damage is about the same and there was very little difference. However in the course of the game the group got a hold of a magic longsword (+2 I believe) and I happened to be the only person with proficiency.

This was pre-Tasha’s so things like the aim bonus action were not a thing. In the course of the adventure we had to fight a flying enemy peppering us with ranged attacks. We had range of our own, but this creature was tough and super mobile and we were struggling. I switched to the longsword and downed a potion of flying we had picked up to engage it. Since I wasn’t getting sneak attack otherwise, the longsword out damaged my shortsword and I was able to grapple the creature to keep it from flying all over the place and behind cover or leaving the room.

I kinda forgot why I brought all this up, but it was a fun character and worked okay. Not optimal but had some niche uses. The homebrew one needed some rebalancing for the late game but the early game was basically just like playing any other rogue but with a particular gimmick.

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u/GankisKhan04 DM (Dungeon Memelord) Mar 17 '23

My old rogue/barbarian multiclass was an awesome thug that primarily used strength over dex. It would have been pretty awesome to use a strength weapon for sneak attacks, but I kinda get why they balanced it like that with the bigger base damage dice.

It was so fun when the DM would describe my sneak attacks as just super dirty fighting shanking my enemies with a short sword or throwing daggers so hard in one case it struck pommel first and caved in the bandits head!

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u/Patchy_Soul Mar 17 '23

I have an assassination Rogue who found a +1 longsword very early in the campaign. If it was able to do sneak attack damage, I would have massacred a lot of the encounters

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u/Interneteldar DM (Dungeon Memelord) Mar 17 '23

It could've been a +1 Rapier, the difference is one point of damage that's counterbalanced by a decrease in AC if you prioritize strength, especially for a class that can't use medium or heavy armour.

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u/Patchy_Soul Mar 17 '23

We were running Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and the sword was in the book. It wasn't the DM's choice really

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u/Vaheyy Mar 17 '23

A good dm can change the gear available in a module to better suit the party :3

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u/Interneteldar DM (Dungeon Memelord) Mar 17 '23

That's not the point though. A +1 longsword (which rogues can't use for sneak attack) is not that much stronger than a +1 Rapier (which rogues can use).

So there's no real balance argument to stop rogues from doing it.

Though I still think that finesse weapons for sneak attack make sense, you've got to have a good handle on the weapon to hit the right spot.

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u/Ill-Individual2105 Mar 17 '23

Well, you still need to either have advantage or have an ally nearby, so it isn't free. And you can use a +1 Rapier to achieve the same effect with dexterity.

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u/0MemeMan0 Rogue Mar 17 '23

There has been precisely one instance where it has been helpful. and that is the case of the Sun Blade.

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u/Usagi-Zakura Ranger Mar 17 '23 edited Mar 18 '23

My rogue has a longsword that she gets snack attack with...

Sure its kinda small, she got it from a pseudodragon after all... and it's damage dice is a d4...Okay so it may just be a very fancy dagger but shhh don't tell her....

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u/Rogendo DM (Dungeon Memelord) Mar 17 '23

Nothing would break but it would encroach on other class turf. Being a rogue isn’t about being strong.

This is like saying “would anything break if you let barbarians cast spells while raging?”

No, nothing would break but the class identity.

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u/angelstar107 Ranger Mar 17 '23

Hot Take: Your Longsword Proficiency isn't worthless. It means you can trade it in for any martial weapon, simple weapon, or tool proficiency of your choice. This is purely RaW because of TCoE.

Enjoy.

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u/ninteen74 Mar 17 '23

Concealment issues come to mind. But hey Aarakoa killing a Tarrasque is allowed, then by all means do what you think is best

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u/RdoubleM Mar 17 '23

A rapier is like 3 feet long, you can't really conceal that in your pockets

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u/Available_Frame889 Mar 17 '23

You can sneak attacks with strength, if you want. The weapon just need to be a finesse weapon. So if you attack with a short sword and your str is higher than your dex, why not just use your str.

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u/NessOnett8 Necromancer Mar 17 '23

Yes. The core premise of the game. Which is roleplaying fantasy. If you're going to disregard all flavor and roleplay in favor of "Make number big" I feel like you've missed the point of the game. And if you're looking to do that, there's better games and better genres for that.

There is nothing "sneaky" about aiming a two-handed warhammer at someone's clavicle in plain sight. Sneak attack represents hitting a specific weak point in the enemy's armor or vitals. Which is an artful, specific, maneuver that requires finesse. Hence, the reason it requires the finesse property. You can't deftly slip a blade in the narrow slit between joints if that blade is a greataxe.

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u/Cinderea Mar 17 '23

I made a feat for my games that expands the list of weapons with the finesse property for your character, making the longsword a finesse weapon

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u/Adam_Lynd Rogue Mar 17 '23

My DM says it’s stupid that longswords aren’t finesse. So he rules that they are in his games.

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u/EmberKeeper Mar 18 '23

Longsword should have finesse when held with both hands

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u/mnemonikos82 Mar 17 '23

Not every rogue has to be a sneak through the shadows, nefarious thief. That's the beauty of DnD, you can be what you want.

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u/assassindash346 Goblin Deez Nuts Mar 17 '23

Right, but to get the sneak attack roll you gotta user finesse weapons unless the dm says otherwise

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u/Lazerbeams2 DM (Dungeon Memelord) Mar 17 '23

Right but most of the class features are related to skills and Sneak Attack. You can't Sneak Attack with a Strength only weapon