r/dndmemes Mar 17 '23

Would anything break if you let Rogues do sneak attacks with strength? eDgY rOuGe

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447

u/chain_letter Mar 17 '23

Sentinel, get whip proficiency from a race, hands have rapier and whip. Rapier almost all the time, but when someone tries to move out of that whip range, even with a disengage, SLAP

36

u/Beldizar Mar 17 '23

So, odd question that I never caught the answer to, and it applies to monsters more than PCs, but it fits this question. If a creature (PC or monster) has multiple attack forms which have different levels of reach, when do other creatures provoke attacks through movement? Is it when they leave any reach, or is it when they leave the largest reach?

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u/chain_letter Mar 17 '23

Leaving any reach will provoke an attack of opportunity.

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u/Machinimix Essential NPC Mar 17 '23

And to expand on this, any attack they have in their statblock that has the reach for the triggered provoke can be used. So a creature with an adjacent attack, a 10ft reach and a 15ft reach could use all 3 against someone running from adjacent, but could only use the 15ft one when something moves from 15ft away from them.

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u/SethQ Mar 17 '23

Could use any*, not all. Only get one reaction and therefore only one attempt to AoO per round.

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Did they even bring the "combat reflexes -allows for additional AoO" feat from 3.5 to 5e?

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u/Tsonmur Wizard Mar 18 '23

Not really, cavalier gets something like it as a high level feature, but no feats like it

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '23

Thats sad. Thanks for letting me know, this is the last weekend of my 3.5 campaign and next session we start my first game of 5E. I hope cleric/barbarians are as good in 5e as they were in 3.5

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u/Tsonmur Wizard Mar 18 '23

I have played 5e to a point of being tired if it's restrictivness, so I kind of think most of it sucks at this point from a character build perspective, but clerics are probably among the most powerful classes, and minus the obvious counters, barbs are pretty powerful as well.

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u/Ashamed_Association8 Mar 18 '23

I don't think so, but i dont know all the material by heart, but i dont think so

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u/G0ldenEye5 Mar 17 '23

Probably important to point out that they have the option to use any one of their three attacks, since a creature only gets one reaction, but otherwise correct

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u/Machinimix Essential NPC Mar 17 '23

They get minimum 1; some are able to have more (see Hydra or Marilith).

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u/clutzyninja Mar 17 '23

So RAW for AOO is leaving your reach. It doesn't say the reach of any of your wielded weapons. That says to me if you're wielding a whip, your reach is 10 feet, period, and you only get an AOO if an enemy leaves THAT range

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u/chain_letter Mar 18 '23

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u/clutzyninja Mar 18 '23

Fair enough. Of course Crawford offers his interpretations, and are not truly official. I happen to disagree with him here

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u/Kris_Pantalones Mar 18 '23

This is correct, in my option and by sage advice, I think. It's when a creature leaves a threatened area, so having reach means you don't get AoO when they move 5ft away from right next to you and are still within 10ft. There's nothing that says you get to pick which range you want to threaten at a given moment. Your max reach would determine that.

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u/ValkyrianRabecca Warlock Mar 18 '23

So if you have a whip and a longsword... you're forced to use the weaker weapon?

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u/clutzyninja Mar 18 '23

No, you can not try to exploit the rules, and just have your main weapon equipped and use that

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u/ValkyrianRabecca Warlock Mar 18 '23

Exploit the Rules... what? Asking to swing my longsword at someone in longsword range is rule explot?

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u/clutzyninja Mar 18 '23

I have no idea what you're talking about. We're talking about having a whip in your off hand solely to get AOO on enemies within 10 ft instead of 5

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u/ValkyrianRabecca Warlock Mar 18 '23

If I have a whip in my off hand and a longsword in my main hand

It isn't rules exploit to want to longsword the enemy when he steps out of 5ft reach and then on a later turn whip someone who walks out of 10ft reach

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u/clutzyninja Mar 18 '23

To me it is. RAW says you get an AOO when an enemy leaves your reach. If you have a whip, they are still in your reach until they leave 10 ft. And let's be clear here, the only reason someone would want to do this isn't for an enemy they're engaged with, it's so they have a larger zone to attack other enemies attempting to maneuver. If you want to do that, fine, then main hand the whip and use it as your primary weapon.

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u/mr_comfortfit Mar 17 '23

Opportunity attack is a reaction so you would only be able to use it once in a round even if you are dual wielding

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u/clutzyninja Mar 17 '23

It's when you leave melee range. If you leave one option's range but are still in range of another? You haven't left melee range, in my interpretation.

My call is when you are leaving the range that the monster can melee attack you at all

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u/Ashamed_Association8 Mar 18 '23

Generally i would base this threat on their main weapon. Like a dragon might have reach on it's tail swipe attack, but I'd give them the aoo on their claws. This general. If the dragon deliberately closes to the 10ft for it's tail than I'd say that is where it's focus is. With players I'm not lenient. Sure you can AOO with your whip, but with my monsters i like to telegraph these things.

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u/RangerManSam Mar 17 '23

Need the duel wielder feat

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u/bwaresunlight Mar 17 '23

No you don't. You can attack with either weapon for the opportunity attack, just not both. He's saying you'd only use the whip once in a while for the purpose of getting targets at reach.

-55

u/Deathangle75 Mar 17 '23

But pole arm master also gives a bonus action attack, which for the whip rapier combo to have you’ll need the dual Wielder feat. Bonus to ac helps make up for it though.

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u/adragonlover5 Mar 17 '23

You're NOT making bonus action attacks in this hypothetical build.

You are using the rapier for the attack action, that's it. Then you are using the whip for opportunity attacks.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '23

So for the sake of conversation, what should I be doing with my bonus action if I were to copy this?

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u/adragonlover5 Mar 17 '23

You're a rogue. Dash, Disengage, Hide.

Edit: Use the Tasha feature Steady Aim.

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u/stormscape10x Mar 17 '23

And depending on your archetype you probably have at least one or two more options like summoning a weapon or fooling someone into advantage.

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u/Ashamed_Association8 Mar 18 '23

You use your bonus action on your turn, it doesn't influence what you do with your reaction

-30

u/Shadowofademon Mar 17 '23

Honest question for ya; Are your saying that it's possible to use my reaction to swap the whip and rapier in my hands and then make an opportunity attack? Or am I dropping the rapier to then put the whip in my dominate hand and make an attack? Either way seems like you're taking a free action and then attacking on someone else's turn to make this work

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u/adragonlover5 Mar 17 '23

You can use an opportunity attack to attack with any weapon you're holding. It doesn't have to be the one you used with the attack action on your turn. The "off hand" description only applies to the bonus action attack made if using Two-Weapon Fighting.

Edit: Typo

-32

u/Shadowofademon Mar 17 '23

And your DM would let you get away with that? Lucky you. I know mine would rule that if you're using the off hand weapon you follow those rules because your attacking with your off hand

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u/adragonlover5 Mar 17 '23

That is a house rule. Your DM is not playing by RAW in this case.

Edit (sorry, multitasking): it's not "getting away with" something to do things RAW. This isn't a game breaking mechanic either.

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u/ignisiun413 Mar 17 '23

By the rules, you can hold any two weapons in two hands

Two weapon fighting is a rule that allows someone wielding two light weapons to attack as a bonus action, without their modifier bonus, if they attack with their action.

The dual wielder feat simply allows one of those two weapons to be not light, as long as it doesn't hand the two handed property.

By the base rules, a person could hold a whip in one hand, and a rapier in the other. When they take the attack action, if both are light (whips are not, usually I believe) they can make an attack with their offhand, and doing less damage. This has nothing to do with which hand is wielding which weapon.

If someone leaves your swords range, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against them with the sword. If they leave the range of the whip, and you haven't used your reaction already, you could use your reaction then to make an opportunity attack, still including mod, because you only do less damage when using the bonus action attack granted by the Two Weapon Fighting rules.

If your DM does this differently, I reccomend letting him know the proper ruling, as dominant/offhand is an active decision, and not a preset. Obviously do it nicely, and if y'all still decide to run it that way it's fine. But it's always good to have a learning moment.

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u/helanadin Mar 17 '23

it's not "getting away with" anything, it's just not being constrained by some weird homebrew your DM invented

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u/asirkman Mar 18 '23

You should probably check the rules on attacking and weapon usage.

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u/bwaresunlight Mar 17 '23

You still don't. There are zero rules that say you can't hold a weapon in each hand. The OP didn't say anything about trying to attack as a bonus action with the whip. If he were, then yes they would need the DW Feat. They are just saying that they have a whip on one hand and a rapier in the other so they will make their normal attack with the rapier. The whip would be used to attack targets leaving the ten ft range.

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u/K4G3N4R4 Mar 17 '23

I know RAW doesn't have rules for off hand combat, so this doesn't really matter to your argument, but it definitely feels like RAI would treat all off hand attacks with disadvantage as though you were dual wielding normally. Functionally this build is dual wielding, and then just only partial attacking to avoid penalties with the off hand attack.

Switching dominant hand weapons would fall under the draw while moving rules easily enough, I could even see some tables allowing it as a free action, but if not, you then have to manage what weapon is in your dominant hand to have the option. The dual wielder feat functionally takes on the role of learning to use your off hand to attack. This all plays of RAI and mechanical feel though.

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u/Electricdino Mar 17 '23

RAW the only penalty to offhand attacks (called two weapon fighting in 5e) is not getting to add your attack bonus to the damage. Where are you getting that there aren't rules for offhand attacks? It's written right in the PHB.

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u/K4G3N4R4 Mar 18 '23

Right, I misremembered. The rest of the comment about shenanigans to avoid penalties with the whip is still valid though.

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u/Electricdino Mar 18 '23

No penalties to avoid in 5e besides the lower damage. Sentinel gives extra opportunities to use your opportunity attack, thus more sneak attacks.

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u/chain_letter Mar 17 '23

nope, this is not two-weapon fighting.

You're just holding a whip while doing your normal rogue stuff with the rapier, waiting for the opportunity attack to go off on the whip's range for huge sneak attack damage.

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u/[deleted] Mar 17 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/WaterLemons420 DM (Dungeon Memelord) Mar 17 '23

Bot that stole a comment from elsewhere in the comment section, report spam-harmful bots

-115

u/theCacklingGoblin Mar 17 '23 edited Mar 17 '23

It's still your off hand. Which makes it an off hand attack. Edit: Spelling

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u/Xiij Mar 17 '23

nope, 5e doesn't distinguish between main hand and off hand, two-weapon fighting only comes into play if you want to use your bonus action to make an attack, and you have no other means of doing so.

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u/Ribbles78 Mar 17 '23

Ohhh, that’s 5e specific then.

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u/Pulsecode9 Mar 18 '23

Every mechanic is specific to the system being discussed, yes.

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u/paladinLight Blood Hunter Mar 17 '23

They aren't making them in the same turn, Its not dual wielding, its wielding them separately at the same time.

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u/AnotherQuietHobbit Mar 17 '23

I fucking love these discussions

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u/SufficientType1794 Mar 17 '23

The concept of "off-hand" doesn't exist in 5e.

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u/chain_letter Mar 17 '23

[citation needed]

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u/CompleteNumpty Mar 18 '23

theCacklingGoblin (2023). Their ass

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u/Afraid-Adeptness-926 Mar 17 '23

The point of PAM is to hit when they enter your reach, though. It is much easier to proc for bonus sneak attacks (in the world where this was allowed).

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u/clutzyninja Mar 17 '23 edited Mar 17 '23

That's assuming their DM allows you to switch weapons for free. Which, is that's why you're doing it, to exploit range for attacks if opportunity? Nope

Edit: disregard, I missed we were talking about keeping the whip in an off hand. Though I feel like raw there is you ONLY get an opportunity attack if an enemy leaves your 10 foot range, since that is now your reach

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u/Eligomancer Mar 17 '23

Which race gets a whip proficiency?

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u/chain_letter Mar 17 '23

Multiverse: Eladrin, Sea Elf, Shadar-Kai, Githyanki

Tasha weapon proficiency swap rule: Dwarf PHB, Elf PHB, SCAG Half-Elf

Before reprint + tasha swap: Duergar MTF, Hobgoblin VGM

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u/Eligomancer Mar 17 '23

Thank you!