Petition to save Tv Butte in Oakridge!

[u/Turbulent-Law7722]

If we let this project happen, local tourism will go down which will take away jobs and harm our economy, on top of the environment. Here’s hoping I can post the link in the comments?

[u/letsmakeafriendship]

Ok, but where are we going to allow people to mine rocks because like we need rocks to build stuff? I agree this should be well-regulated but the answer can't be "no quarrys, ever" unless we want to pay 100x for all our local infrastructure and building materials because we have to source them from elsewhere.

The anti-quarry website is so laughably bad. Just one example: On their page alleging the negative health effects the quarry will cause, they cite that 'In a study, 98% of residents near a stone quarry were found to be exposed to carcinogenic dust even in the safety of their homes' and then say (as if these statements are related but they are not) "Outdoor air pollution was linked to 4.2 million premature deaths in 2019". But clearly 4.2 million premature deaths are caused by all air pollution, not just rock dust. But they think you're too stupid to notice that.

Oh, and the study about quarry dust being found in homes they cite? It's about people living next to a quarry in Palestine, a place famed for its strong worker protections and environmental regulations. Not Palestine, Ohio, but Palestine where there's currently you know an international conflict playing out.

[u/futureflowerfarmer → u/letsmakeafriendship]

What about the studies showing it will disrupt large game in the area? ODFW backed this up and expressed concerns

[u/Bonkisqueen → u/futureflowerfarmer]

Everything disrupts wildlife, it’s an unfortunate fact of human existence. Elk are adaptable and will move, just like they do when there are fires or floods or roads built.

[u/MaraudersWereFramed → u/futureflowerfarmer]

To be fair, doesn't any mining and foresting operation in our area of the state disrupt wildlife? Is this one shown to have an abnormally significant impact? I don't see that challenge holding out forever even if it works this time.

[u/larry_flarry → u/MaraudersWereFramed]

Forestry doesn't eliminate habitat, it merely alters it and temporarily disrupts wildlife for the duration that logging is actively underway. If you go from forested peak to hole in the ground, you've eliminated suitable habitat entirely, and thus disrupted animals movement across the landscape forever.

It's an entirely invalid comparison.

[u/ScaleEarnhardt → u/larry_flarry]

Forestry… doesn’t eliminate or impact habitat!??

How about farms? Roads? Homes and their yards? Schools and their playgrounds and sports fields? Businesses and their parking lots? Etc etc etc.

Please explain to me how this is any different. From the sound of it the layout of this mine is relatively very small in comparison to many other forms of mining. It’s basically a hole in the ground, a staging area for transport, and an access road.

Anybody familiar with elk in the Rocky Mountains can tell you they are in no shortage, they are as common as deer, and they go into the mountains during the warm season, meaning they are very physical and capable creatures, adapted to mountainous terrain. They would simply go around this.

[u/larry_flarry → u/ScaleEarnhardt]

Read the Oregon Forest Practices Act and come back with enough groundwork to hold this discussion. The area is zoned forested, so keep that in mind as you read.

Yes, farms and roads and homes and their yards all reduce available habitat. Now that you've read the OFPA, you understand that none of those things can be built in the area surrounding Oakridge and Westfir in any significant density because of very strict zoning at the state level, so they're entirely irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about a private quarry, not farms or housing developments or infrastructure. The private quarry will impact long term habitability of the land for wildlife, and will immediately reduce occupied habitat. That's a fact, whatever point you're trying to make aside.

[u/ScaleEarnhardt → u/larry_flarry]

Thanks for the resource, I’ll check it out.

In the mean time, it’s apparently necessary to point out that the infrastructure I listed is simply useful metaphor. Clearly this isn’t rural residential, Ag, or commercial zoning, but that absolutely isn’t irrelevant like you claim. In a mountain town like Oakridge any new development, regardless of zoning, is going to have some level of impact on habitat because it is literally surrounded by it in all directions. So the point stands.

I’d also hazard a guess that since it used to be an operational quarry, it probably isn’t exact pristine virgin wilderness. It sounds like much of the footprint of the operation is likely already in existence.

You accurately point out that this is a private quarry. If the guy owns it, it’s zoned appropriately, and it was surveyed by professional geologists then it’s his business what he does with it. Retroactively trying to negate the zoning of the property just because people apparently don’t like the guy who owns it is outrageous extrajudicial bullshit.

[u/larry_flarry → u/ScaleEarnhardt]

If the guy owns it, it’s zoned appropriately, and it was surveyed by professional geologists then it’s his business what he does with it.

Again, read the OFPA. This statement is incorrect. It's not a free for all, and the issue here is the land is being re-zoned to suit him, hence it being up for public comment at all. This venture is currently illegal, and Ed King is looking for a variance.

[u/ScaleEarnhardt → u/larry_flarry]

Hmm! I see. So even though it used to be a quarry it was at some point zoned as forest use. But attempting to rezone is a legislative process that happens somewhat frequently, and not in and of itself ‘illegal’ by any means. If he operated in violation of zoning he would be breaking the law, but I seriously doubt we have reason to suspect he will.

That legislative decision will be interesting to see, as this is clearly a very public hearing. That should give the county representatives a reason for very thorough investigation into the true viability of his proposal, specifically beyond what seems to be pretty shaky reasoning by protesters, and to hopefully be able to make an informed and objective decision.

The OFPA is too much reading for my busy day. Are there particular portions you could refer us all to that support your claims that the re-zoning shouldn’t proceed??

[u/larry_flarry → u/ScaleEarnhardt]

The OFPA is too much reading for my busy day.

So, too busy to figure out what you're talking about, but not too busy to keep talking about it. What are your qualifications, exactly, aside from your willful ignorance of Oregon land use law?

A high impact, low overhead industry isn't going to help Oregon, it isn't going to help Oakridge, and it isn't going to help anyone beyond the owners and the three or four people it employs. There will be no change in haulage; the material is already getting hauled, those truckers already exist, they're just going to a different spot to get it.

What's the justification for rezoning, other than "I'm rich and swinging my dick, do what I say"? There is obviously a whole lot of opposition to the rezoning, particularly by those whose healthy and safety will be directly affected by it. Why should the rules be bent to allow their town to get shittier for some dude's profits? Why should already strained infrastructure and resources be forced to accommodate one dude's private operations?

[u/ScaleEarnhardt → u/larry_flarry]

Yep, I’m not going to read through a massive legal document to find the tiny portions that are actually relevant to this situation. That shouldn’t come as a surprise, and it’s not willful ignorance— I politely asked your apparently informed insight out of genuine curiosity.

You could help us all out by providing the details relevant to your argument instead of just slamming the whole book down as a stand-in for the details necessary to support your position.

This one operation may be just a drop in a bucket to the state, but those drops collectively make the place we all share livable. If the opposition’s arguments against this re-zoning weren’t so flimsy and their rhetoric about ‘Mr Money’ wasn’t such obvious virtue signaling, I’d have happily stayed out of this conversation.

It’s not rule breaking/bending if they are going through the legislative process, that a totally normal part of development. It’s particularly understandable since it was already a quarry. In fact, looking at pictures and satellite imagery of the property reveals it to already very much look like an existing overgrown quarry, not untouched wilderness. It shouldn’t be some blowout revelation that this guy expects to be able to bring it back to its former operation.

[u/MaraudersWereFramed → u/larry_flarry]

It's not an invalid comparison in the context they presented. I would also say that logging disrupts wildlife even after the active portion has concluded. Some species obviously impacted at a far greater extent than others. Elk may not care about clearcut land so much as they can still graze, but other species such as birds, squirrels ect that rely on trees would be impacted long after the operation is completed until the trees regrow to a suitable height. The lack of prey animals would also impact predator animals in the area that feed on them as their available hunting ground shrinks, potentially forcing them into the territory of rivals and into a human impacted competition for food.

If we want to play semantics we can also say that the movement across the landscape is only temporarily impacted just like foresting as over hundreds of years it will refill due to dirt and organic matter filling it in.

But I agree with another comment you made about zoning. Zoning does it's best to balance the needs of people vs our impact on the environment. While one mine all by itself would be insignificant, a mine in an area already supporting a town, subject to logging nearby and the ever present danger of forest fires could be the straw that breaks the camels back for local wildlife. That could be a strong arguing point I'm not seeing anyone articulating in here on the issue.

[u/larry_flarry → u/MaraudersWereFramed]

If you can show me a picture of an operable quarry in the PNW that demonstrates a thriving ecosystem, I'll eat my words, but you won't, because it doesn't exist. Even a clearcut (which isn't practiced on any public land in Oregon due to the OFPA) provides a thriving habitat for a host of early seral organisms. Entirely denuded of trees is not a unique natural condition, and Oregon Forest Practices mandate that it can't be left denuded of trees, public or private, so it's an ephemeral condition, at best.

Disturbance is a natural part of every ecological cycle. Perpetual disturbance, however, is not. A quarry that gets blasted regularly is essentially sterile save for perhaps a handful of invasive fish, birds, and plants. You can go look for yourself at a quarry that no one has worked in decades, and it'll still be a barren pit full of knapweed and trash.

Clear cut is still habitat, freshly blasted rock is not.

[u/MaraudersWereFramed → u/larry_flarry]

I won't because I never said or implied that it existed. Only stated that over hundreds of years they will start filling back in due to debris being carried in by natural processes, so you could technically say they are not a forever alteration too.

Again I'm saying that even logging has a detrimental impact on animal life until they regrow. I'm not talking about plants or shrubs but animals. Not nearly as significant as a quarry and for only a relatively insignificant amount of time in comparison. But it still has an impact.

[u/larry_flarry → u/MaraudersWereFramed]

Again, events like forest fires have denuded the landscape naturally. Stuff like floods and landslides and changes to hydrology can have the same effect. They hit the reset switch, but then things immediately start to serally progress towards some sort of climax state. If you hit the reset switch every other day, nothing is coming back, and it is a hole of unoccupiable territory that isn't on its way to becoming anything.

I stand by my statement that those examples are not valid to compare. One is a point disturbance, the other is an endless disturbance. It doesn't take a whole lot of logic, or really any ecological knowledge whatsoever, to see that one is a much more extreme and unnatural state than the other, and if you want to take it there, thus more impactful to the ecosystem and wildlife therein.