Petition to save Tv Butte in Oakridge!

[u/Turbulent-Law7722]

If we let this project happen, local tourism will go down which will take away jobs and harm our economy, on top of the environment. Here’s hoping I can post the link in the comments?

[u/MaraudersWereFramed]

To be fair, doesn't any mining and foresting operation in our area of the state disrupt wildlife? Is this one shown to have an abnormally significant impact? I don't see that challenge holding out forever even if it works this time.

[u/larry_flarry → u/MaraudersWereFramed]

Forestry doesn't eliminate habitat, it merely alters it and temporarily disrupts wildlife for the duration that logging is actively underway. If you go from forested peak to hole in the ground, you've eliminated suitable habitat entirely, and thus disrupted animals movement across the landscape forever.

It's an entirely invalid comparison.

[u/MaraudersWereFramed → u/larry_flarry]

It's not an invalid comparison in the context they presented. I would also say that logging disrupts wildlife even after the active portion has concluded. Some species obviously impacted at a far greater extent than others. Elk may not care about clearcut land so much as they can still graze, but other species such as birds, squirrels ect that rely on trees would be impacted long after the operation is completed until the trees regrow to a suitable height. The lack of prey animals would also impact predator animals in the area that feed on them as their available hunting ground shrinks, potentially forcing them into the territory of rivals and into a human impacted competition for food.

If we want to play semantics we can also say that the movement across the landscape is only temporarily impacted just like foresting as over hundreds of years it will refill due to dirt and organic matter filling it in.

But I agree with another comment you made about zoning. Zoning does it's best to balance the needs of people vs our impact on the environment. While one mine all by itself would be insignificant, a mine in an area already supporting a town, subject to logging nearby and the ever present danger of forest fires could be the straw that breaks the camels back for local wildlife. That could be a strong arguing point I'm not seeing anyone articulating in here on the issue.

[u/larry_flarry → u/MaraudersWereFramed]

If you can show me a picture of an operable quarry in the PNW that demonstrates a thriving ecosystem, I'll eat my words, but you won't, because it doesn't exist. Even a clearcut (which isn't practiced on any public land in Oregon due to the OFPA) provides a thriving habitat for a host of early seral organisms. Entirely denuded of trees is not a unique natural condition, and Oregon Forest Practices mandate that it can't be left denuded of trees, public or private, so it's an ephemeral condition, at best.

Disturbance is a natural part of every ecological cycle. Perpetual disturbance, however, is not. A quarry that gets blasted regularly is essentially sterile save for perhaps a handful of invasive fish, birds, and plants. You can go look for yourself at a quarry that no one has worked in decades, and it'll still be a barren pit full of knapweed and trash.

Clear cut is still habitat, freshly blasted rock is not.

[u/MaraudersWereFramed → u/larry_flarry]

I won't because I never said or implied that it existed. Only stated that over hundreds of years they will start filling back in due to debris being carried in by natural processes, so you could technically say they are not a forever alteration too.

Again I'm saying that even logging has a detrimental impact on animal life until they regrow. I'm not talking about plants or shrubs but animals. Not nearly as significant as a quarry and for only a relatively insignificant amount of time in comparison. But it still has an impact.

[u/larry_flarry → u/MaraudersWereFramed]

Again, events like forest fires have denuded the landscape naturally. Stuff like floods and landslides and changes to hydrology can have the same effect. They hit the reset switch, but then things immediately start to serally progress towards some sort of climax state. If you hit the reset switch every other day, nothing is coming back, and it is a hole of unoccupiable territory that isn't on its way to becoming anything.

I stand by my statement that those examples are not valid to compare. One is a point disturbance, the other is an endless disturbance. It doesn't take a whole lot of logic, or really any ecological knowledge whatsoever, to see that one is a much more extreme and unnatural state than the other, and if you want to take it there, thus more impactful to the ecosystem and wildlife therein.