Petition to save Tv Butte in Oakridge!

[u/Turbulent-Law7722]

If we let this project happen, local tourism will go down which will take away jobs and harm our economy, on top of the environment. Here’s hoping I can post the link in the comments?

[u/MaraudersWereFramed]

To be fair, doesn't any mining and foresting operation in our area of the state disrupt wildlife? Is this one shown to have an abnormally significant impact? I don't see that challenge holding out forever even if it works this time.

[u/larry_flarry → u/MaraudersWereFramed]

Forestry doesn't eliminate habitat, it merely alters it and temporarily disrupts wildlife for the duration that logging is actively underway. If you go from forested peak to hole in the ground, you've eliminated suitable habitat entirely, and thus disrupted animals movement across the landscape forever.

It's an entirely invalid comparison.

[u/ScaleEarnhardt → u/larry_flarry]

Forestry… doesn’t eliminate or impact habitat!??

How about farms? Roads? Homes and their yards? Schools and their playgrounds and sports fields? Businesses and their parking lots? Etc etc etc.

Please explain to me how this is any different. From the sound of it the layout of this mine is relatively very small in comparison to many other forms of mining. It’s basically a hole in the ground, a staging area for transport, and an access road.

Anybody familiar with elk in the Rocky Mountains can tell you they are in no shortage, they are as common as deer, and they go into the mountains during the warm season, meaning they are very physical and capable creatures, adapted to mountainous terrain. They would simply go around this.

[u/larry_flarry → u/ScaleEarnhardt]

Read the Oregon Forest Practices Act and come back with enough groundwork to hold this discussion. The area is zoned forested, so keep that in mind as you read.

Yes, farms and roads and homes and their yards all reduce available habitat. Now that you've read the OFPA, you understand that none of those things can be built in the area surrounding Oakridge and Westfir in any significant density because of very strict zoning at the state level, so they're entirely irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about a private quarry, not farms or housing developments or infrastructure. The private quarry will impact long term habitability of the land for wildlife, and will immediately reduce occupied habitat. That's a fact, whatever point you're trying to make aside.

[u/ScaleEarnhardt → u/larry_flarry]

Thanks for the resource, I’ll check it out.

In the mean time, it’s apparently necessary to point out that the infrastructure I listed is simply useful metaphor. Clearly this isn’t rural residential, Ag, or commercial zoning, but that absolutely isn’t irrelevant like you claim. In a mountain town like Oakridge any new development, regardless of zoning, is going to have some level of impact on habitat because it is literally surrounded by it in all directions. So the point stands.

I’d also hazard a guess that since it used to be an operational quarry, it probably isn’t exact pristine virgin wilderness. It sounds like much of the footprint of the operation is likely already in existence.

You accurately point out that this is a private quarry. If the guy owns it, it’s zoned appropriately, and it was surveyed by professional geologists then it’s his business what he does with it. Retroactively trying to negate the zoning of the property just because people apparently don’t like the guy who owns it is outrageous extrajudicial bullshit.

[u/larry_flarry → u/ScaleEarnhardt]

If the guy owns it, it’s zoned appropriately, and it was surveyed by professional geologists then it’s his business what he does with it.

Again, read the OFPA. This statement is incorrect. It's not a free for all, and the issue here is the land is being re-zoned to suit him, hence it being up for public comment at all. This venture is currently illegal, and Ed King is looking for a variance.

[u/ScaleEarnhardt → u/larry_flarry]

Hmm! I see. So even though it used to be a quarry it was at some point zoned as forest use. But attempting to rezone is a legislative process that happens somewhat frequently, and not in and of itself ‘illegal’ by any means. If he operated in violation of zoning he would be breaking the law, but I seriously doubt we have reason to suspect he will.

That legislative decision will be interesting to see, as this is clearly a very public hearing. That should give the county representatives a reason for very thorough investigation into the true viability of his proposal, specifically beyond what seems to be pretty shaky reasoning by protesters, and to hopefully be able to make an informed and objective decision.

The OFPA is too much reading for my busy day. Are there particular portions you could refer us all to that support your claims that the re-zoning shouldn’t proceed??

[u/larry_flarry → u/ScaleEarnhardt]

The OFPA is too much reading for my busy day.

So, too busy to figure out what you're talking about, but not too busy to keep talking about it. What are your qualifications, exactly, aside from your willful ignorance of Oregon land use law?

A high impact, low overhead industry isn't going to help Oregon, it isn't going to help Oakridge, and it isn't going to help anyone beyond the owners and the three or four people it employs. There will be no change in haulage; the material is already getting hauled, those truckers already exist, they're just going to a different spot to get it.

What's the justification for rezoning, other than "I'm rich and swinging my dick, do what I say"? There is obviously a whole lot of opposition to the rezoning, particularly by those whose healthy and safety will be directly affected by it. Why should the rules be bent to allow their town to get shittier for some dude's profits? Why should already strained infrastructure and resources be forced to accommodate one dude's private operations?

[u/ScaleEarnhardt → u/larry_flarry]

Yep, I’m not going to read through a massive legal document to find the tiny portions that are actually relevant to this situation. That shouldn’t come as a surprise, and it’s not willful ignorance— I politely asked your apparently informed insight out of genuine curiosity.

You could help us all out by providing the details relevant to your argument instead of just slamming the whole book down as a stand-in for the details necessary to support your position.

This one operation may be just a drop in a bucket to the state, but those drops collectively make the place we all share livable. If the opposition’s arguments against this re-zoning weren’t so flimsy and their rhetoric about ‘Mr Money’ wasn’t such obvious virtue signaling, I’d have happily stayed out of this conversation.

It’s not rule breaking/bending if they are going through the legislative process, that a totally normal part of development. It’s particularly understandable since it was already a quarry. In fact, looking at pictures and satellite imagery of the property reveals it to already very much look like an existing overgrown quarry, not untouched wilderness. It shouldn’t be some blowout revelation that this guy expects to be able to bring it back to its former operation.

[u/MaraudersWereFramed → u/ScaleEarnhardt]

It's impossible to have a conversation with this guy lol. If Jesus came down and preached the gospel, but used his inter-personal communication skills, the entire world would be worshipping Satan right now.

I agree that the quarry probably isn't a good thing. But he's starting to make me hope knight gets it out of spite.

[u/ScaleEarnhardt → u/MaraudersWereFramed]

Sigh. It seemed to be a constructive conversation for a while. Clearly there is a lot of anger and bias underneath the calm exterior. 🤷‍♂️ I’m indifferent to the project too, as it seems we need experts and the necessary judicial processes to decide these issues. All the hearsay and assumptions leading to the more weak-minded in our communities to automatically use it as an opportunity to assume the worst, damn an opportunity without knowing facts, and to talk badly about someone most of us probably have never even met just seems like mob mentality. I understand how the issue could be of a concern to people, but that is what our legal system and county planning is for.

[u/MaraudersWereFramed → u/ScaleEarnhardt]

I agree with what you've said and will leave it at that. Anything more that I would add wouldn't be constructive. 😆

I did throw out one thing in a different part of this thread. If the mine -is- going to happen, perhaps it can be used to help the community homeless population that want to get back on their feet. IE providing basic sufficient shelter on top of pay for working. Nothing fancy. Just cover the basics. Protection from the elements. Showers, cooking ect could even use a communal facility. A private company has no obligation to do this, but perhaps a deal could be made. Help people who fell on hard times and want a way out get onto their feet and get back to being self sufficient.

[u/ScaleEarnhardt → u/MaraudersWereFramed]

For sure. There was a brief suggestion I similarly shared with another commenter in this thread basically suggesting that since a county planning legislative process is already underway, that perhaps Oakridge and King could find a way to have the taxes benefit the city, perhaps partially, or even completely, as opposed to just going to Lane County.

While the site in question may be outside city limits, it is somewhat close by. I’m no city or county planner, and who knows if it’s a total impossibility, but the thought at least was that Lane County has an obligation to Oakridge, and, especially if they are struggling economically, it benefits Lane County as much as anybody to see the town revitalized through its economic successes.

Who knows, but IMO these kinds of ideas are what needs to be suggested, positive and creative compromises that allow for everyone to actualize their potential, not name calling and cancel culture. That crap is immature and shortsighted. We all need to build each other up as a community, not tear each other down.

[u/larry_flarry → u/ScaleEarnhardt]

If the opposition’s arguments against this re-zoning weren’t so flimsy and their rhetoric about ‘Mr Money’ wasn’t such obvious virtue signaling, I’d have happily stayed out of this conversation.

So, you took it personally, as a temporarily inconvenienced millionaire, that people don't want their wild spaces wrecked so someone can make a quick buck, and decided you needed to butt in to declare your uninformed opinion? That...tracks. Seems much more reasonable to stay out of the discussion when you don't have the barest grasp of the fundamentals of what's being discussed, but I guess that's not the world we live in anymore. Opinions are like assholes and all that...

You don't need a forestry degree to read the stipulations for forested lands. Google's AI summary will set you up pretty good. https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=what+are+the+rules+for+developing+zoned+forested+land+in+oregon

The details are that he's not allowed to operate on the land as currently zoned. If a variance is issued so that he is allowed to operate contrary to zoning, it is at the expense of everyone who gains nothing from the change, but is stuck funding everything from emergency services to roads and infrastructure that will be utilized by the venture. You're obviously not familiar with the sociopolitical state of Oakridge, but it's in absolute fucking shambles after years of embezzlement and mismanagement by a bunch of corrupt officials who have since skipped town, and left the current city administration holding the very heavy bag. Emergency services are stretched gossamer thin and there has already been costly levies to keep the fire department operable. I'm not interested in subsidizing some prick's cash grab amidst it all, regardless of his present economic state, while the struggling local community gains less than nothing from it. He can absolutely open a quarry where the land is zoned for such uses, with zero contention.

It also doesn't help that Ed King is a walking nepotism baby, a chode with arms and legs who has never worked for anything and is widely despised by his employees and vendors.