r/Eugene • u/Turbulent-Law7722 • Dec 01 '24
Petition to save Tv Butte in Oakridge! Activism
If we let this project happen, local tourism will go down which will take away jobs and harm our economy, on top of the environment. Here’s hoping I can post the link in the comments?
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u/Proud_Cauliflower400 Dec 01 '24
Okay. Cool story. Way to go on providing any kinds of links or evidence as to how or why.
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u/happilyretired23 Dec 01 '24 edited Dec 01 '24
Personally I think the best bet for evidence is the Lane County Planning page on the project. There (if you have the time and energy) you can read
hundredsthousands of pages of arguments for and against the quarry. One good place to start (if you don't instinctively distrust everything produced by a government employee) is the Staff Memo weighing up the initial arguments.15
u/Proud_Cauliflower400 Dec 01 '24
I don't distrust or not distrust. I am just continually let down by folks who post basic shit without posting supporting evidence. Like the basics we learned in high-school to provide supporting evidence to our opposition to whatever we're protesting against.
If you post something in opposition to something common sense dictates you might want to post supporting evidence. It's not that hard to do, in fact your kind of owe it to everyone you're asking to support your point of veiw.
When and in what world have we lost the ability or understanding of providing supporting factual evidence to showcase our sides?
Has America really become this incompetent?
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u/541dose Dec 01 '24
yes...many people in this country chose intentionally to disregard facts due to ignorance and inbred hatred. It's called delusion.
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u/happilyretired23 Dec 02 '24
Sorry...I reread my comment and it reads like the "distrust" part was directed at you. It wasn't. I've just been burned too many times by people attacking me due to whatever link I was posting being from The Government.
And yeah...I like to see evidence too. Hence I provide it when I can :)
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u/Turbulent-Law7722 Dec 01 '24
I did on every other post but I wasn’t sure if I should since I already had to post the link in the comments.. theses another link in the post about the protest though.
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u/letsmakeafriendship Dec 01 '24
Ok, but where are we going to allow people to mine rocks because like we need rocks to build stuff? I agree this should be well-regulated but the answer can't be "no quarrys, ever" unless we want to pay 100x for all our local infrastructure and building materials because we have to source them from elsewhere.
The anti-quarry website is so laughably bad. Just one example: On their page alleging the negative health effects the quarry will cause, they cite that 'In a study, 98% of residents near a stone quarry were found to be exposed to carcinogenic dust even in the safety of their homes' and then say (as if these statements are related but they are not) "Outdoor air pollution was linked to 4.2 million premature deaths in 2019". But clearly 4.2 million premature deaths are caused by all air pollution, not just rock dust. But they think you're too stupid to notice that.
Oh, and the study about quarry dust being found in homes they cite? It's about people living next to a quarry in Palestine, a place famed for its strong worker protections and environmental regulations. Not Palestine, Ohio, but Palestine where there's currently you know an international conflict playing out.
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u/futureflowerfarmer Dec 01 '24
What about the studies showing it will disrupt large game in the area? ODFW backed this up and expressed concerns
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u/Bonkisqueen Dec 01 '24
Everything disrupts wildlife, it’s an unfortunate fact of human existence. Elk are adaptable and will move, just like they do when there are fires or floods or roads built.
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u/MaraudersWereFramed Dec 01 '24
To be fair, doesn't any mining and foresting operation in our area of the state disrupt wildlife? Is this one shown to have an abnormally significant impact? I don't see that challenge holding out forever even if it works this time.
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u/larry_flarry Dec 01 '24
Forestry doesn't eliminate habitat, it merely alters it and temporarily disrupts wildlife for the duration that logging is actively underway. If you go from forested peak to hole in the ground, you've eliminated suitable habitat entirely, and thus disrupted animals movement across the landscape forever.
It's an entirely invalid comparison.
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u/ScaleEarnhardt Dec 01 '24
Forestry… doesn’t eliminate or impact habitat!??
How about farms? Roads? Homes and their yards? Schools and their playgrounds and sports fields? Businesses and their parking lots? Etc etc etc.
Please explain to me how this is any different. From the sound of it the layout of this mine is relatively very small in comparison to many other forms of mining. It’s basically a hole in the ground, a staging area for transport, and an access road.
Anybody familiar with elk in the Rocky Mountains can tell you they are in no shortage, they are as common as deer, and they go into the mountains during the warm season, meaning they are very physical and capable creatures, adapted to mountainous terrain. They would simply go around this.
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u/larry_flarry Dec 01 '24
Read the Oregon Forest Practices Act and come back with enough groundwork to hold this discussion. The area is zoned forested, so keep that in mind as you read.
Yes, farms and roads and homes and their yards all reduce available habitat. Now that you've read the OFPA, you understand that none of those things can be built in the area surrounding Oakridge and Westfir in any significant density because of very strict zoning at the state level, so they're entirely irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about a private quarry, not farms or housing developments or infrastructure. The private quarry will impact long term habitability of the land for wildlife, and will immediately reduce occupied habitat. That's a fact, whatever point you're trying to make aside.
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u/ScaleEarnhardt Dec 01 '24 edited Dec 01 '24
Thanks for the resource, I’ll check it out.
In the mean time, it’s apparently necessary to point out that the infrastructure I listed is simply useful metaphor. Clearly this isn’t rural residential, Ag, or commercial zoning, but that absolutely isn’t irrelevant like you claim. In a mountain town like Oakridge any new development, regardless of zoning, is going to have some level of impact on habitat because it is literally surrounded by it in all directions. So the point stands.
I’d also hazard a guess that since it used to be an operational quarry, it probably isn’t exact pristine virgin wilderness. It sounds like much of the footprint of the operation is likely already in existence.
You accurately point out that this is a private quarry. If the guy owns it, it’s zoned appropriately, and it was surveyed by professional geologists then it’s his business what he does with it. Retroactively trying to negate the zoning of the property just because people apparently don’t like the guy who owns it is outrageous extrajudicial bullshit.
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u/larry_flarry Dec 01 '24
If the guy owns it, it’s zoned appropriately, and it was surveyed by professional geologists then it’s his business what he does with it.
Again, read the OFPA. This statement is incorrect. It's not a free for all, and the issue here is the land is being re-zoned to suit him, hence it being up for public comment at all. This venture is currently illegal, and Ed King is looking for a variance.
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u/ScaleEarnhardt Dec 01 '24
Hmm! I see. So even though it used to be a quarry it was at some point zoned as forest use. But attempting to rezone is a legislative process that happens somewhat frequently, and not in and of itself ‘illegal’ by any means. If he operated in violation of zoning he would be breaking the law, but I seriously doubt we have reason to suspect he will.
That legislative decision will be interesting to see, as this is clearly a very public hearing. That should give the county representatives a reason for very thorough investigation into the true viability of his proposal, specifically beyond what seems to be pretty shaky reasoning by protesters, and to hopefully be able to make an informed and objective decision.
The OFPA is too much reading for my busy day. Are there particular portions you could refer us all to that support your claims that the re-zoning shouldn’t proceed??
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u/larry_flarry Dec 01 '24
The OFPA is too much reading for my busy day.
So, too busy to figure out what you're talking about, but not too busy to keep talking about it. What are your qualifications, exactly, aside from your willful ignorance of Oregon land use law?
A high impact, low overhead industry isn't going to help Oregon, it isn't going to help Oakridge, and it isn't going to help anyone beyond the owners and the three or four people it employs. There will be no change in haulage; the material is already getting hauled, those truckers already exist, they're just going to a different spot to get it.
What's the justification for rezoning, other than "I'm rich and swinging my dick, do what I say"? There is obviously a whole lot of opposition to the rezoning, particularly by those whose healthy and safety will be directly affected by it. Why should the rules be bent to allow their town to get shittier for some dude's profits? Why should already strained infrastructure and resources be forced to accommodate one dude's private operations?
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u/MaraudersWereFramed Dec 01 '24
It's not an invalid comparison in the context they presented. I would also say that logging disrupts wildlife even after the active portion has concluded. Some species obviously impacted at a far greater extent than others. Elk may not care about clearcut land so much as they can still graze, but other species such as birds, squirrels ect that rely on trees would be impacted long after the operation is completed until the trees regrow to a suitable height. The lack of prey animals would also impact predator animals in the area that feed on them as their available hunting ground shrinks, potentially forcing them into the territory of rivals and into a human impacted competition for food.
If we want to play semantics we can also say that the movement across the landscape is only temporarily impacted just like foresting as over hundreds of years it will refill due to dirt and organic matter filling it in.
But I agree with another comment you made about zoning. Zoning does it's best to balance the needs of people vs our impact on the environment. While one mine all by itself would be insignificant, a mine in an area already supporting a town, subject to logging nearby and the ever present danger of forest fires could be the straw that breaks the camels back for local wildlife. That could be a strong arguing point I'm not seeing anyone articulating in here on the issue.
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u/larry_flarry Dec 01 '24
If you can show me a picture of an operable quarry in the PNW that demonstrates a thriving ecosystem, I'll eat my words, but you won't, because it doesn't exist. Even a clearcut (which isn't practiced on any public land in Oregon due to the OFPA) provides a thriving habitat for a host of early seral organisms. Entirely denuded of trees is not a unique natural condition, and Oregon Forest Practices mandate that it can't be left denuded of trees, public or private, so it's an ephemeral condition, at best.
Disturbance is a natural part of every ecological cycle. Perpetual disturbance, however, is not. A quarry that gets blasted regularly is essentially sterile save for perhaps a handful of invasive fish, birds, and plants. You can go look for yourself at a quarry that no one has worked in decades, and it'll still be a barren pit full of knapweed and trash.
Clear cut is still habitat, freshly blasted rock is not.
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u/MaraudersWereFramed Dec 01 '24
I won't because I never said or implied that it existed. Only stated that over hundreds of years they will start filling back in due to debris being carried in by natural processes, so you could technically say they are not a forever alteration too.
Again I'm saying that even logging has a detrimental impact on animal life until they regrow. I'm not talking about plants or shrubs but animals. Not nearly as significant as a quarry and for only a relatively insignificant amount of time in comparison. But it still has an impact.
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u/larry_flarry Dec 01 '24
Again, events like forest fires have denuded the landscape naturally. Stuff like floods and landslides and changes to hydrology can have the same effect. They hit the reset switch, but then things immediately start to serally progress towards some sort of climax state. If you hit the reset switch every other day, nothing is coming back, and it is a hole of unoccupiable territory that isn't on its way to becoming anything.
I stand by my statement that those examples are not valid to compare. One is a point disturbance, the other is an endless disturbance. It doesn't take a whole lot of logic, or really any ecological knowledge whatsoever, to see that one is a much more extreme and unnatural state than the other, and if you want to take it there, thus more impactful to the ecosystem and wildlife therein.
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u/kerit Dec 01 '24
Where in Oakridge is TV Butte?
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u/happilyretired23 Dec 01 '24
East side of town, northeast of the intersection of Dunning Road and Fish Hatchery Road.
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u/kerit Dec 01 '24
I'm having a tough time seeing how this will harm Oakridge beyond survival.
Will it have some negative effects? Sure. But Armageddon? I think not.
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u/oreferngonian Dec 01 '24
It is the headwaters of the Willamette river and our drinking water but who cares
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u/doosalone Dec 01 '24
The river in Oakridge literally has a giant gravel pit in it but you use the river argument for your cause. The proposed rock quarry is on top of a hill outside town. It just feels like when you make these wild claims it also debases the strange sounding claims that also sound kind of wild. A burial site, On a random hill? Elk breeding ground…as much as any other hill? I could go on…
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u/MaraudersWereFramed Dec 01 '24
Just put a salmon in a fishbowl and place it at the proposed mine site.
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u/oreferngonian Dec 01 '24
Salmon have to get trucked around Dexter and Lookout
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u/MaraudersWereFramed Dec 01 '24
I'm just making a joke. Saying they can't mine there if there's salmon there.
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u/oreferngonian Dec 01 '24
Oh but it’s true there are no fish ladders on the two dams keeping Eugene Springfield from flooding
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u/oreferngonian Dec 01 '24
And this quarry will be right next to the fish hatchery
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u/MaraudersWereFramed Dec 01 '24
I don't know if mining dust would pose a significant risk to hatchery fish. But any significant aquatic impact would be the most likely thing to get the mine blocked. I don't think ancient elk breeding grounds will be sufficient. Being at the top of a hill, drainage and runoff would be a concern just in general. But I'd imagine there are industry standards and they will have an answer ready for it. If this mine is going to open regardless of environmental challenges, maybe the people of Oakridge can try to get something positive out of it. Like shelter and employment for any homeless population looking to get back on their feet.
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u/kerit Dec 01 '24
You're claiming that Tina Kotek's DEQ is derelict?
And, if anything, it's like a match on a fire.
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u/oreferngonian Dec 01 '24
I’m telling you where it is because I live there
Oakridge is on the headwaters of the Willamette and this butte is in between two of those creeks
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u/kerit Dec 01 '24
Yes, and the DEQ is in charge of protection of those resources.
Resources have to come from somewhere.
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u/oreferngonian Dec 01 '24
We have a gravel pit already it’s been operating for 50+ years
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u/kerit Dec 01 '24
It may not contain aggregate that will meet the standards of future development. Mineral extraction isn't cheap, I'm guessing there's a reason why a new source is being considered.
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u/oreferngonian Dec 01 '24
lol No one comes up here.
I’m glad you trust some DEQ to care about a dying town of 3000 living in poverty. But I’m here to tell you no one cares about Oakridge period
We are going broke running an ambulance on hwy 58 for all the shitty drivers
I’m tired of forgotten Oakridge and ppl like you are part of the problem
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u/kerit Dec 01 '24
The neat thing is that you have the Middle Firk Willamette Watershed Council made up of diverse stakeholders that works with potential pollution sources to maintain water quality and more heavily involve DEQ if it is needed. So, DEQ doesn't even have to come to town, you have a local group.
You want OROR to change and improve, but when someone wants to invest in the area and likely create a few good paying jobs, Y'all try to nope them out of there.
It's a bold move, Cotton.
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u/oreferngonian Dec 01 '24
This is not going to bring many jobs
Funny thing is you are arguing with someone who’s family has been here since the 20’s
We had a great industry and our town flourished during logging and when we had two mills.
You think some rich guys rock quarry is replacing two mills of jobs and boost our towns economy
lol You really like to sound smart but the reality is that you are just smoke and mirrors
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u/oreferngonian Dec 01 '24
My whole issue is we have a quarry on the river
What’s the difference between the two?
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u/ScaleEarnhardt Dec 01 '24
There’s two right next to the McKenzie River in Eugene, too. No issues with those. Regulations keep those operations running tight ships.
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u/oreferngonian Dec 01 '24
And do you want to live next to it?
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u/ScaleEarnhardt Dec 01 '24
Yeah, actually. I live in direct sight of one, not even half a mile away. I was incredibly skeptical when I first moved to this location, as my work is in Ag and I rely on ground water rights and our drinking water is well water, and we are down stream. I test my water regularly, it’s never been anything other than amazingly clean.
We also never hear blasts, like, as in I literally have never heard a single blast. I used to work ski resorts seasonally, and we’d hear the avalanche blasts almost every day during peak season, so I’m familiar with the sound.
Honestly, I drive past the place every day, and even though I initially had my suspicions, I’ve watched their work from afar and I’ve been impressed how clean and hardworking they are. I know this potential operation being discussed will come with its own specific variables, but the one I’m next to has earned my respect.
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u/oreferngonian Dec 01 '24
And not bring in city limits any revenue from taxes goes down the hill to lane county and rarely comes back up
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u/ScaleEarnhardt Dec 02 '24
I wonder if that could be negotiated too. Everybody is already moving pieces around the board. There might be a way to have it benefit the city, especially since revitalizing Oakridge should be a priority of Lane Co.
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u/oreferngonian Dec 01 '24
They use explosives? Bc that’s this one
Our other one is a gravel pit just crushing and moving river rock similar to delta
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u/CarleneSDA Dec 01 '24 edited Dec 01 '24
Tourism doesn't really bring that many jobs to Oakridge and it never will, and what it does bring are minimum wage and part time. The town is too close to the high Cascades to be much of a destination in its own right. The only real appeal is mountain biking, but that can't carry the town (and could die off even without the help of the quarry if the wildfires continue to get worse). I'm against the project myself, but not because of people.
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u/541dose Dec 01 '24
ITS FUNNY HOW POOR PEOPLE WORSHIP THE RICH DADDYS BOY🤷♂️....DON'T U SEE THEY LAUGH AT YOU AS THEY USE YOU TO ENRICH THEMSELVES.....BUT YEAH, "JOBS"😵 ..
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u/Turbulent-Law7722 Dec 01 '24
PETITION LINK