r/tuesday • u/tuesday_mod This lady's not for turning • 9d ago
Semi-Weekly Discussion Thread - December 23, 2024
INTRODUCTION
/r/tuesday is a political discussion sub for the right side of the political spectrum - from the center to the traditional/standard right (but not alt-right!) However, we're going for a big tent approach and welcome anyone with nuanced and non-standard views. We encourage dissents and discourse as long as it is accompanied with facts and evidence and is done in good faith and in a polite and respectful manner.
PURPOSE OF THE DISCUSSION THREAD
Like in r/neoliberal and r/neoconnwo, you can talk about anything you want in the Discussion Thread. So, socialize with other people, talk about politics and conservatism, tell us about your day, shitpost or literally anything under the sun. In the DT, rules such as "stay on topic" and "no Shitposting/Memes/Politician-focused comments" don't apply.
It is my hope that we can foster a sense of community through the Discussion Thread.
IMAGE FLAIRS
r/Tuesday will reward image flairs to people who write an effort post or an OC text post on certain subjects. It could be about philosophy, politics, economics, etc... Available image flairs can be seen here. If you have any special requests for specific flairs, please message the mods!
The list of previous effort posts can be found here
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 2d ago
To /r/tuesday: Have a blessed week ahead.
Gospel According to Luke, 2:21–40 (ESV):
And at the end of eight days, when he was circumcised, he was called Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Jesus Presented at the Temple
And when the time came for their purification according to the Law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord (as it is written in the Law of the Lord, “Every male who first opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”) and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the Law of the Lord, “a pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.” Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. And he came in the Spirit into the temple, and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the Law, he took him up in his arms and blessed God and said, “Lord, now you are letting your servant depart in peace, according to your word; for my eyes have seen your salvation that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to your people Israel.” And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him. And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is opposed (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), so that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”
And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin, and then as a widow until she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day. And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak of him to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem.
The Return to Nazareth
And when they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom. And the favor of God was upon him.
First Sunday after Christmas: Gospel Reading (CPH The Lutheran Study Bible) : https://old.reddit.com/r/Sunday/comments/1hoywt2/
First Sunday after Christmas: Reflections on Scripture (video, American Lutheran Theological Seminary) : https://old.reddit.com/r/Sunday/comments/1hoxbhx/
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u/Thadlust Right Visitor 3d ago
The whole "blue counties make up 65% of GDP" is such nonsense because a) people commute from red counties to blue ones and b) GDP only counts the final product - if a Cargill factory makes corn meal in Des Moines, the entire value of the product is counted for Des Moines, even if the raw materials are produced from farmers across Iowa.
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u/TheCarnalStatist Centre-right 2d ago
While I agree I'm somewhat miffed that I have to pick between urbanism and the GOP. I have 0 interest in living in the burbs and don't really want to live in a rural area either. It has always bothered me that there's not an alternative to awful Democrat rule in urban areas.
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 3d ago
It doesn't tell the full story on its own, but it's not nonsense. It is making a substantiated assertion that the greater bulk of measured economic activity takes place in blue counties.
Your point that only final goods are counted also applies to many B2B transactions in blue counties, so you'd need to show it's disproportionate to make a workable counterargument.
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u/Bullet_Jesus Left Visitor 3d ago
The whole GDP thing feels to me as a case of "where people live". It also feeds into the polarization by attempting to portray red counties as moochers, as if the economy and nation is such a narrow thing.
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u/Nklst Liberal Conservative 4d ago
Utterly surprised that people who believe that immigrants have eaten pets are not in favour of H1B visa for Indian high skilled workers.
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u/ReturnoftheTurd Right Visitor 3d ago
The average person in my Trump voting rural hometown doesn’t care if coastal liberal degree holders who went to MIT, Stanford, and Harvard are getting their salaries undercut when those same people didn’t give a damn about millions of people coming in under the Biden administration who were, shall we say, not degree holding professional engineers.
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 3d ago
The disagreement seems to be that people thought "highly skilled" meant doctors/CEOs/rocket scientist when it actually means 7-11 cashier or middle manager #5426.
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 3d ago
when it actually means 7-11 cashier or middle manager #5426.
No, it doesn't. 66% of H1B visas are "computer related" ie programmers, 10% are architecture and engineering, and only 1-2% could fit one of your categories as miscellaneous professional/managerial.
Did you just think "H1Bs are mostly from India" and leap to 7-11 cashier? Because that's messed up and dumb as rocks.
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 3d ago
No. I mentioned 7-11 cashier because people are finding h1-b visas for 7-11 cashiers.
Obviously that is not most or probably even a large chunk of the visas. But if your argument is that we couldn't possibly find Americans smart or trained enough to do these jobs, like Elon and Vivek have been saying, then it's not a great look when people see them being used for truckers and cashiers.2
u/ReturnoftheTurd Right Visitor 3d ago
So what is the source of that? Because a screenshot of a table I could make in about 45 seconds in Excel means nothing. And even if that is the case, then what are the numbers? Because there are a half million H1B visa holders and you showed like 11 items on an untitled list.
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u/Soarin-Flyin Classical Liberal 3d ago
Why? If US citizens don’t want to work it at the offered wages or can get better opportunities elsewhere why shouldn’t we have people filling those positions?
Those immigrants are going to be living in local communities and spending money in our economy, or they take that money and send it home to improve the lives of family. Both of those are net wins. The alternative is positions just sit unfilled and those potential downstream gains are lost.
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 3d ago
Well, that does lead to some more questions. Would citizens be willing to take these jobs if wages were raised and employers are just importing people they have more control over to force wage suppression? Also the question of culture clash, especially with some countries, and how many people we can let in without getting things like ethnic enclaves. Is a nation something besides just a tax zone where all that matters is GDP go up?
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u/Soarin-Flyin Classical Liberal 3d ago
I believe there’s a mechanism in place already that requires the compensation to be reasonable and not undercutting, which addresses your first point.
Don’t ethnic enclaves likes Chinatown, little Italy, etc. already exist in some fashion? I think this is a loser reason to be against it. It feels like thinly veiled racism because the immigrants of today aren’t the same ethnicity as the immigrants of 100 years ago.
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 3d ago
That's fair. I'm not a big fan of enclaves just because I think it tends to slow assimilation and often leads to the area kind of having its own ruleset.
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u/PubliusVA Constitutional Conservative 3d ago
How is them sending their earnings back to their home country a net win for us?
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u/ReturnoftheTurd Right Visitor 3d ago
How is it a net win for me because some random shmuck in Seattle gets that job instead?
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u/Soarin-Flyin Classical Liberal 3d ago
I should have specified. It doesn’t directly benefit the US but it does improve the quality of life for the people in those other countries. If more people are doing better that’s a good thing, regardless of where they are in the world.
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u/PubliusVA Constitutional Conservative 3d ago
That’s true in a sense, but try campaigning on “well it’s good for the other country’s economy.”
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u/Soarin-Flyin Classical Liberal 3d ago
Oh I totally get that. I just think it’s dumb to be against something because it’s not benefiting the “right” people, especially when the alternative is the job being left empty. These are jobs that aren’t being filled by US citizens, why not take people who want those opportunities.
I’m probably painting with too broad a brush but sometimes I think anti-immigration rhetoric has more to do with racism than anything else.
My in-laws are the type to be hella against immigration but also are the type who take deep pride in their parents/grandparents being immigrants and their European heritage.
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 3d ago
So your response to "the description you used only applies to 1-2%" is effectively, "yes."
But if your argument is that we couldn't possibly find Americans smart or trained enough to do these jobs
It's not.
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 3d ago
There doesn't seem to be a more specific breakdown of exactly what is in which category, but at a glance Admin Specialist could very easily encompass that as well so possibly 6-7% just at face value.
Well, if that isn't your argument then you seem to be on the sidelines of what is being discussed on social media so I'm not sure what your point is.4
u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 3d ago edited 3d ago
so I'm not sure what your point is.
I was pretty clear that my point in this thread is that when you say H1B "actually means" 7-11 cashier or middle manager you're wrong. Even taking your strained interpretation of Admin Specialist, you're maxing out at under 10% but using that to paint the entire group.
You are saying that what H1B actually means is "the disagreement." So if it's a sideline topic, that's on you.
Edit: Also, the link to the more specific breakdown of categories is in the document right in the middle of the occupation section and takes you here, which shows that administrative specialists are accountants, investigators, PR, sales, etc. They can be management, but these aren't what comes to mind when you use the generic term middle management. They're specialists who as part of their H1B app provide evidence their specific skills are not readily available in the US. An example would be a sales manager who has extensive contacts in Thailand to facilitate deals in the area.
https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/forms/m-746.pdf
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 3d ago
The disagreement is what peoples' expectations are when you say "highly skilled". And when people found out that encompasses everything from cashiers, to managers, to the entry level IT guy answering their ticket rather than just the dude keeping Google running they had some questions about the purpose of the program.
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 3d ago
You've changed your description from "is actually X" to "encompasses everything including a tiny amount of X." Without any acknowledgement that you phrased it poorly or something along those lines from you, I'm taking it as bad faith goalpost-shifting.
That plus your unwillingness to even read the footnote directly between the longform description and the chart of occupations breakdown leads me to conclude you're not prepared to have a serious discussion on this topic, so I am stopping here.
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 3d ago
Well. I appreciate the discussion as well as your edit to show I was correct about the area I checked regarding the breakdown not being specific and that you were incorrect about only 1-2%.
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u/Mexatt Rightwing Libertarian 5d ago
That 'murder is wrong' has become controversial is deeply disturbing and deeply, deeply worrying for the future.
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u/epicfail1994 Left Visitor 🦄 4d ago
Yeah seriously I’ve been downvoted to hell for saying that it’s ridiculous
Like, I’m not gonna lose sleep over the CEO of United being shot but that doesn’t mean that the guy that shot him is right in murdering someone. Just because the CEO was a POS doesn’t mean he deserves to get shot in the back.
But the guy who did it is hot so apparently that justifies things
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u/Mal5341 Conservatarian 3d ago
That's what really bothers me.
I literally said "The CEO was a terrible human being, I feel no sympathy and do not feel bad. But Luigi is still a murderer and the CEO shouldn't have been killed on the street by some vigilante" and I'm called a bootlicker and a fascist
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u/Nklst Liberal Conservative 4d ago
Agree, it's awful to see how many people support death penalty.
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 3d ago
Not me. The death penalty is one of this biggest black marks on American governance and a factor in me only living in states that don't use it.
Also, cold blooded murder is wrong and people being "edgy" by saying the United CEO was murdering thousands aren't engaging with the topic like adults.
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 3d ago
a factor in me only living in states that don’t use it.
Sounds like we got someone planning a crime here. /s
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 3d ago edited 3d ago
Small rant: The (joking) idea is that avoiding death penalty states means someone is considering a crime implies that it is guilty people who hold this fear, but my objection to the death penalty is primarily centered around it being used to kill people who haven't been proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt, and most people who object oppose the idea of a government killing its own citizens. So from my POV it is innocent people who should be the majority of those worried about the death penalty since there are so many more of us, and it's mostly about thinking the government will kill someone else not us.
I think that actually is the case too, most objectioners have no intention of ever committing a capital crime and don't expect to be falsely accused of one, and yet the instinct that pervades our society is "objection to punishment = feels like they might get that punishment down the line." I feel like that speaks to something in our values, a certain line of selfishness and judgment, a tendency to lump people in with those they defend as though people would only defend somebody out of self interest.
I just watched Bridge of Spies last night, so the idea of someone defending a deeply unpopular person they do not identify with simply because it is the right thing to do has been on my mind. Solid movie; can't go wrong with a Spielberg & Hanks period piece.
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u/Mexatt Rightwing Libertarian 4d ago
So I guess you don't think murder is wrong in this instance?
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u/PubliusVA Constitutional Conservative 4d ago
murder, n., the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 4d ago
And how many innocent people end up being murdered by the state?
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 4d ago
And how many innocent people end up being murdered by the state?
I don’t support the death penalty, except in rare cases of states of emergency.
I might be incorrect, but in pre-Enlightenment thought, any killing done by a government has a legal mandate, and the killing is therefore legal. It didn’t matter what any laws said, or how unjust the circumstances seemed, any killing done by a government is legal and therefore not murder.
The concept of the rule of law rather than rule of state is what enables some killings done by a government to be illegal and therefore murder. And I think the world is better with the rule of law.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 4d ago edited 4d ago
I guess my whole point is America is far more bloodthirsty than we let on. We're okay with innocent death's so long as they go through the proper procedures, instead of just asking outright why did an innocent person have to die?
Yes, Brian Thompson was innocent and was extra-judiciously executed, but are we saying to ourselves we would've been okay with his death had he broken a law that warranted the death penalty only to find out after the fact that he was in fact innocent?
It makes no sense to me honestly at this point. America is a nation of hypocrites.
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 4d ago
I'd be pretty surprised if there were many innocent people on death row nowadays.
I'd assume people are also a lot more ok with somebody on death row dying thanks to the decades long legal process with various spots to correct a wrong that one has to go through to get to the point of being executed. It's also a lot harder for our judicial system to get everything wrong and sentence an innocent man to death compared to some random nutjob deciding to kill a guy.
From a quick google, it looks like 6 people have been executed that later had issues with the evidence against them found. Seems like a pretty good record for the justice system.3
u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 3d ago
We have had multiple SCOTUS cases in just the last few years where people who were clearly not proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt were executed anyway.
I don't know exactly how you pared down to six, but it's certainly not an accurate number for "people who were probably wrongly executed by the state." It sounds like you're only looking at cases where post-execution investigation turned something up, but the obvious flaw there is the authorities are pretty much never going to do that kind of investigation. If there are six of them that came up with actual proof, that's probably an insanely high success ratio.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 4d ago edited 4d ago
So we deem those six lives as an acceptable loss to justify killing those we deemed too dangerous to live?
You're more or less proving my point in that we're a bloodthirsty nation that doesn't value life at all.
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 4d ago
I guess my whole point is America is far more bloodthirsty than we let on. We're okay with innocent death's so long as they go through the proper procedures, instead of just asking outright why did an innocent person have to die?
Agree with your point that many Americans get too excited at the thought of certain people they don’t like dying.
I also think the political right (especially the modern political right) has a lack of grace (a willingness to be fair and to forgive). I’m not the largest fan of “liberal” churches, but I found evidence that in many conservative Protestant churches congregants don’t start the divine service with a corporate confession of sins. I think many conservative Protestants underestimate how much they sin daily and how much their sins are forgiven.
Gospel According to Luke, 7:41–43 (ESV):
“A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?” Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.”
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u/Nklst Liberal Conservative 5d ago
It's always funny when nationalists find out how nationalist actual nationalists are.
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u/StillProfessional55 Left Visitor 4d ago
I think the leopards ate my face meme got it sort of backwards. The LEPFP voters really want the leopards to eat people’s faces, but it turns out some of the leopards are vegetarians who are now squeamish about being held to their promises to eat people’s faces.
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u/epicfail1994 Left Visitor 🦄 5d ago
So I went to get a few quick picks since the jackpot is over a billion dollars and I won $100 on a scratch ticket
So i wound up getting 50 quick picks lmao let’s see if I win anything
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 4d ago
The fuck are you thinking? Just get yourself a fancy dinner with that. Or pay a bill.
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u/epicfail1994 Left Visitor 🦄 4d ago edited 4d ago
As this sub is aware I have a history of amazing life decisions, lmao. I’d actually already bought 25 and just bought another 25 and kept the remaining $50, but that was more exposition than I felt like writing
There’s a reason I don’t gamble 😂
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u/cyberklown28 Environmentalist 4d ago
Don't forget about me if you win.
💰
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u/epicfail1994 Left Visitor 🦄 4d ago
I’m genetically engineering a unicorn that I can ride around my new mansion if I win lol
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u/Silver_County7374 Right Visitor 5d ago
I'm not anti-immigrant at all but Elon's arguments in the current MAGA civil war over highly skilled immigration is almost making me turn into a full on Know Nothing. He's actually saying that we should import more immigrants because it's too expensive and time consuming to train actual Americans to do anything. That the local born population should just become uneducated fools and die out because it's easier to just hire a skilled immigrant than to train an American.
Like this is what the Great Replacement Theory posits is happening as an insane conspiracy theory, but it's what Elon is legitimately arguing we should actually do in real life. I guess their parroting of the Great Replacement Theory was, just like every other accusation MAGA makes, pure projection after all.
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u/psunavy03 Conservative 3d ago
What he actually wants are more cheap people he can grind into the ground at his companies. I mean, as incredible as the things are that SpaceX has done, let's not forget that Elon is notorious for running white-collar sweatshops.
He'd ultimately rather pay an Indian dude 2/3 of what a US citizen software engineer brings down, and hold their immigration status over their head while asking them to work his ridiculous "hardcore" hours. That's ultimately what this "meritocracy" they want boils down to.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 4d ago
As much as they were clamoring for Civil War, I suspect they didn't think it would manifest like this.
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u/DerrickWhiteMVP Conservatarian 5d ago
I always get the sudden urge to go back into the Navy as an officer, then I remember I can’t use cannabis and I have to shave and I no longer want to lol.
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u/cyberklown28 Environmentalist 5d ago
Trump, in a Truth Social post on Sunday, said U.S. ownership and control of Greenland was an “absolute necessity” for national security reasons.
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 4d ago
Buying Greenland might be the best idea he’s had as president and I hope he pulls it off.
Because why wouldn’t you want Greenland?
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u/cyberklown28 Environmentalist 4d ago
Denmark says it's not for sale, but Denmark's entire GDP is half of what the US spends on defense spending.
If the US seriously made an offer, they'd be insane not to accept it. It'd literally be free healthcare and America's gonna pay for it, for a decade+
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u/Spurgeoniskindacool Right Visitor 3d ago
What do you do with the 50k people that live there? Isn't there opinion as an autonomous region more important than Denmark's?
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u/Mal5341 Conservatarian 5d ago
This man has a compulsion disorder. Like I'm not even kidding I think he has some sort of emotional disorder like clinical narcissism; once someone tells him an idea is of his is bad he is compelled to double down on it. I've taught students with similar issues and it went beyond "they are arrogant or refuse to admit they were wrong" it was legitimately something they couldn't control. And POTUS being like that is a scary thing.
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 4d ago
Too bad it's not ODD, we could've just told him he has to run for President and been done with him years ago.
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 5d ago
Any of you guys ever cooked steak in an oven? Is it significantly worse than doing it in a frying pan?
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u/interwebhobo Left Visitor 5d ago
As long as you follow a traditional reverse-sear method (oven to temp then finish with a fast sear on a high-heat preheated pan), you really can't go wrong. If you only cook in the oven and don't sear it, I'd probably pass. Steak without a good sear is just not the same.
Overall, I'd say reverse searing is more fool-proof while producing equivalent taste to only using a frying pan. The only method easier than reverse searing is sous vide and then searing.
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 4d ago
How quickly are we talking with the sear?
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u/interwebhobo Left Visitor 4d ago
Depends on how hot your pan can get, but if I put my electric stove at high and have the pan fully preheated (only do this with cast iron or carbon steel FYI; stainless steel could go to like 3/4 way to high and just don't do this with non-stick), it usually can take about 1 min per side, maybe less. I'd check after 30 seconds.
Make sure you have a good high smoke-point oil. My recent favorite is avocado oil but a non-virgin olive oil works well if that's what you have. Regular vegetable oil will work as well, but will smoke a bit more. Prepare for smoke and oil splatter regardless. My order is always heat pan -> once fully preheated, add oil -> once oil is shimmering (also heated), add steak.
You can finish with butter, but it will brown and burn pretty fast at these temps so be aware (probably best to take it off the burner, add butter, then baste a bit, flip, baste. You risk going past med rare/whatever your desired temp is if you do this though.)
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 4d ago
I’m a sicko who likes their steak well done
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u/interwebhobo Left Visitor 4d ago
Well the good news is that you have a very large margin of error when trying this out haha. No real risk of overcooking at that rate so it should make the process of trying something new a bit less stressful hopefully!
Hope it works out for you!
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u/idlewildsmoke Right Visitor 5d ago
SIL got me the Fareed Zakaria book “Age of Revolutions: Progress and Backlash from 1600 to the Present“ for Christmas. Anyone here read it?
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u/TheGentlemanlyMan British Neoconservative 5d ago
No but I've read A Post-American World. Which was decent. Somewhat forgettable.
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u/thematterasserted Left Visitor 6d ago
Oh look, an interesting article was posted with 7 comments already! Wonder what the users here have to say.
[removed]
All top level comments are reserved for those with a C-Right flair.
Can the C-right flairs start commenting so I can read what other people have to say lol
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 5d ago
I took a look at it, but it's a poorly done version of an argument I agree with. So I personally do not feel much like engaging with it as I don't feel like having the author's mistakes misattributed to me, and I'd rather have the discussion on my own terms.
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u/DerangedPrimate Right Visitor 5d ago
I confess that I often feel a little bad that I don't take the time to read many of the articles. My life has gotten busy, and spending long periods of time in front of a screen no longer feels like a good use of my limited free time, so Reddit has become something that I just glance at to fill a few minutes and see other people's takes.
I hope to change that at some point, if possible. I think we live in interesting times with fascinating debates and challenges, and the internet provides amazingly comprehensive access to it all, even though I'm just a normal, random guy.
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u/Nklst Liberal Conservative 5d ago
You can comment here.
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u/thematterasserted Left Visitor 5d ago
I'm not complaining about not being able to comment myself, just that it'd be nice to be able to see more discussion from others (I mainly come to this sub to expose myself to viewpoints I wouldn't see otherwise). It's obviously pretty minor in the grand scheme of things.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 5d ago edited 5d ago
The funny part is, we have explored that question numerous times, but those who ask it usually don't like the answer they receive as they're trying to justify why they're right and others are barbaric.
Still, as I stated in the DT, I suspect support for Luigi Mangione has more to do with faith in institutions. Those who still believe in them think the killing was wrong, while those who don't don't believe he did anything wrong.
Once you view it from that lense, I think it's easier to understand why there is so much support even if you don't agree with it.
^
That is what I said.Again, obviously yes what he did was wrong, and will be tried by a jury of his peers accordingly, but I wish we would stop lying to ourselves when we say that specific question hasn't been explored already. People absolutely despise insurance companies, they've been quite vocal and their pleas have gone unheard.
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 5d ago
To add to your point about the emotion of it, there's a reason in many legal proceedings it's disallowed to mention in front of the jury whether a party was covered by insurance and which company they had. People hate insurance companies and will disregard the law to try and hurt them.
That said, I didn't think the idea they have been vocal and gone unheard is a claim we should simply accept uncritically. There have been massive changes to the insurance industry over the last few decades in response to public outcry, and the vast majority of people supporting Mangione have done nothing significant to actually attempt to transform their angst into any sort of change. It's closer to "I felt aggrieved and nobody did anything of their own volition to fix that" than "I spoke out and was put down for it."
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 5d ago edited 5d ago
There have been massive changes to the insurance industry over the last few decades in response to public outcry
Yes, over the past few decades. Meaning there was and will always be continuous improvement. The fact that you even admit people hate (not even tolerate) their insurance companies would indicate that maybe things are not so perfect and reform is needed.
Why should we have such an antagonistic system that gives people (and doctors) more headaches than what it's probably worth?
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 5d ago
The fact that you even admit people hate their insurance companies would indicate that maybe things are not so perfect and reform is needed.
I have never written anything that could reasonably be construed as thinking insurance is perfect and no reform is needed. I suspect you are tripped up by the instinct we have to think someone saying "A is wrong" must believe the opposite of A is right. But that is a non sequitur line of thought, and it's on the thinker to fix that because it's unreasonable to expect everyone pointing out a flawed argument to spend equal time disproving its opposite that people aren't even making.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 5d ago
So... great, let's talk about reform, because truly, that's the only thing I care about. I think Insurance Companies should be required to display their denial rates and for what reasons.
As much as we claim healthcare needs to be more transparent in order to be competitive in the marketplace, we really half-ass it if I am going to be honest.
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 5d ago
Sure, thats a good idea. I also believe universal crisis coverage is a good idea to establish baseline health security for everyone, and insurance companies should then provide insurance policies on top of that baseline. We already pay for ER visits to stabilize people, the most expensive care possible, even if they don't have insurance, so really we should just formalize and do this more efficiently. I do not believe in Medicare for all, largely because that would give federal political control over everyone in the country's health care. With the Trump administration coming in about a month, I'm sure you can understand why that would be potentially disastrous for many people
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u/Soarin-Flyin Classical Liberal 5d ago
I think something that doesn’t get discussed a lot is how medical insurance isn’t really insurance, it’s a managed care plan. What I have for my car or house is insurance.
If I need an oil change or a new water tank I don’t submit a claim. When I go to the doctor for a yearly check up I am. Being in healthcare I see that a lot of the charges are “fluffed up.”
My insurance will reimburse up to X number of dollars for a visit, so that sets the baseline price of visits to X dollars, otherwise a provider leave money on the table (no insurance patients then get a “discount” similar to local shops that offer it to people paying in cash).
It creates a distorted market and no one is actually competing to provide the best service at a lower cost. It’s just a bunch of made up numbers (in my opinion) and we’ve seen the cracks when things like the Alzheimer’s drug that costs 10’s of thousands per year suddenly become much cheaper when Medicare says they aren’t paying for it at the current price.
All that to say I think universal catastrophic coverage is what insurance should be. You had a stroke, submit your claims and we’ll get you squared away. All that stuff done in primary care should really be just direct billing like when I go and purchase any other product or service.
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u/ReturnoftheTurd Right Visitor 5d ago
We have that. It’s called “show up to hospitals without ID and EMTALA takes care of that for ya”.
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u/bta820 Left Visitor 6d ago
Often is just like to be able to even read the articles. But posts are often subscriptions and comments often link Twitter. Which doesn’t let me read without having Twitter
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u/Longjumping_Gain_807 Left Visitor 5d ago
another this I wish this place would take away from r/neoliberal is that they have a automod bot that detects Twitter links and replies with a link for everyone to be able to read them
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u/Viper_ACR Left Visitor 6d ago
Great, now H1Bs and legal immigration for tech jobs is a political argument.
The tech/lib right supports those workers, but the natcons/alt-right are really starting to show their racism against Indian Americans.
I'm a little worried about this going forward in 2025.
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u/psunavy03 Conservative 3d ago
Media: "but what did Elon MEAN when he said he'd 'go to war?'"
Motherfuckers, it's a Tropic Thunder reference. Am I seriously that old now?
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u/Longjumping_Gain_807 Left Visitor 6d ago
They just don’t like immigrants. That’s it. They don’t like immigrants.
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u/Soarin-Flyin Classical Liberal 5d ago
“If they want to immigrate they should come legally.”
“Okay, we need to expand legal immigration means to accommodate that.”
“No.”
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u/ReturnoftheTurd Right Visitor 6d ago
I’m honestly kind of cautiously optimistic about HTS in Syria. I hope they keep doing non-terrible things and maybe we can look at slowly loosening some sanctions on them if it helps stabilize the situation and doesn’t pose a threat to our direct interests.
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 7d ago
Merry Christmas you filthy animals
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 7d ago
Merry Christmas you filthy animals
There’s this baby human sleeping in my feeding trough. He seems to be important!
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u/coldnorthwz New Federalism\Zombie Reaganite 7d ago
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u/WarmPepsi Right Visitor 6d ago
I tried watching that movie for the first time today. I got to the point where George's brother gets back from college (going in his place as he needs to take over his father's loan business), and couldn't take anymore. It hurt too bad to watch him give up his dreams for his sense of duty to others. I know the movie will make me cry if I try to finish itm
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u/arrowfan624 Center-right 6d ago
Probably the biggest minor issue I had is with the asshole who demands a full refund during the bank run. Like bitch, everyone else is not doing that to help keep the bank afloat. If one additional person had done that, then the bank would’ve collapsed and fucked over all of Bedford Falls.
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u/ReturnoftheTurd Right Visitor 7d ago
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u/Nklst Liberal Conservative 7d ago
Somehow, and I'm quite certain, teens will continue masturbating.
But I guess they will use dodgier sites, Twitter, OF, etc....
What a ridiculous thing.
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u/Longjumping_Gain_807 Left Visitor 6d ago
They don’t even need to use Pornhub. Is just the biggest. There are so many porn sites that you can just pick one
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u/Palmettor Centre-right 7d ago
One of the few good things that I think might come out of the coming chaos.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 7d ago
Okay, then I'll just connect to a Canadian VPN lmao.
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u/ReturnoftheTurd Right Visitor 7d ago
Then we’ll fine the companies for not figuring out a solution to the VPN problem
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u/TychoTiberius Right Visitor 6d ago
I really don't want the government pushing companies to be more invasive about tracking and controlling my internet traffic thank you very much.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 7d ago
Return of the Turd eh?
You know, I'm almost starting to wonder if the legendary Twitter troll CatTurd is with us here this lovely Christmas Eve. :)
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u/ReturnoftheTurd Right Visitor 6d ago
Nah I’m just bored from arr nwo because the nerd mods over there locked the DT for Christmas. My name is more a call back to my previous accounts over the years in nwo.
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 7d ago
Merry Christmas from Singapore!
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 7d ago
My church group is doing a book study on Dr. Stephen M. Saunders’ Martin Luther on Mental Health: Practical Advice for Christians Today. Looking forward to the discussions!
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u/cyberklown28 Environmentalist 7d ago
Popular soft drinks like Coke, Pepsi and Mountain Dew are currently all eligible for purchase with food stamps, but that could change once President-elect Donald Trump takes office in January.
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Trump’s nominee to oversee the Department of Health and Human Services, has vowed to remove soda from the list of items that can be purchased using Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) benefits.
A representative for the American Beverage Association told NewsNation in a statement that limited choices restricting SNAP purchases won’t make America healthy or save taxpayers money. The restrictions go against America’s commitment to individual freedom and liberties, the agency said.
The Wall Street Journal reported Coke is looking to hire more lobbyists who have ties to the incoming Trump administration and plans to donate money to Trump’s inauguration. Coke officials told NewsNation that there is nothing inaccurate about the report.
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 7d ago
Honestly, removing soda from SNAP eligibility could well be the high mark of Kennedy's political career (not that there's much competition).
As much as I oppose nanny-state bans like Bloomberg's attempt to ban Big Gulps, it's different matter when we are talking about government providing funding for things. SNAP already makes distinctions on what people are/are not allowed to buy, and some of them are pretty dumb (no hot foods but frozen processed garbage is okay), but basics like no alcohol and no high-sugar drinks make sense as part of SNAP's core mission to provide nutrition to vulnerable people. If those on SNAP want soda and other junk food, let them simply buy it like everyone else, but don't make the government use our tax dollars to pay for it.
Now whether he has any ability to actually do this is another matter, but based on Trump's last admin people acting far outside their appointed role isn't unheard of.
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u/ReturnoftheTurd Right Visitor 7d ago
HHS
SNAP
I don’t see how he’ll be able to make that happen. That isn’t how that works.
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 7d ago
Popular soft drinks like Coke, Pepsi and Mountain Dew are currently all eligible for purchase with food stamps, but that could change once President-elect Donald Trump takes office in January.
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Trump’s nominee to oversee the Department of Health and Human Services, has vowed to remove soda from the list of items that can be purchased using Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) benefits.
A representative for the American Beverage Association told NewsNation in a statement that limited choices restricting SNAP purchases won’t make America healthy or save taxpayers money. The restrictions go against America’s commitment to individual freedom and liberties, the agency said.
The Wall Street Journal reported Coke is looking to hire more lobbyists who have ties to the incoming Trump administration and plans to donate money to Trump’s inauguration. Coke officials told NewsNation that there is nothing inaccurate about the report.
There is no more than 13 g of natural sugars in 236 mL of whole milk. That’s about 5.5 g of natural sugars in 100 mL.
Maybe we shouldn’t subsidize the consumption of drinks with more than 11 g of total sugars per 100 mL (not only added sugars, but including natural sugars in juices).
https://www.costco.com/horizon%2c-organic-whole-milk%2c-8-oz%2c-18-count.product.100533380.html
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 7d ago
Just came back home from Christmas Eve service. Our senior pastor preached a sermon titled “House of Bread” (from the Hebrew name of the town of Bethlehem).
I’m glad he didn’t bring up anything about how Bethlehem is located in the present-day Fatah-administered West Bank, which I appreciate because regional and ethnic conflict is the last thing I wish to hear about during a Christmas Eve sermon. Then again he’s also not the biggest fan of the leadership in the Islamic Republic in Iran.
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u/Sir-Matilda Ming the Merciless 7d ago
Hoping they arrest Santa this Christmas and stop his terrible spree of crime:
Operating a flying sleigh in absence of certification by the CAB, a clear violation of the Civil Aeronautics Act of 1938.
Unlawfully competing with the U.S. Postal Service on air mail deliveries.
Violating EPA requirements for emissions control devices on his reindeer.
Defying the Sherman Anti-Trust Act by maintaining a strict monopoly in his profession.
Violating the Fair Labor Standards Act by failing to pay his elves the minimum wage or proper overtime benefits.
Engaging in unfair promotional advertising, designed to prey on the defenseless minds of children, a violation of Federal Trade Commission regulations.
Failing to secure an ICC permit and an assignment of certified routes by the Interstate Commerce Commission.
Violating numerous Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) regulations by operating an “unsafe workplace.”
Passing out candy canes and goodies not approved by the Food and Drug Administration.
Ignoring the edicts of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 by failing to institute a quota system in his workshop based on race, religion, sex and size (too many elves, not enough giants).
Making toys which have not been approved by the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
Failing to declare the cookies and milk that are put out for him as taxable income with the IRS.
Transporting firearms across state lines as Christmas presents.
Avoiding state and federal taxes on his sleigh, not to mention licensing, registration, and having an operator’s permit.
Violating various National Labor Relations Board regulations, including the maintenance of a non-union shop and unfairly competing with the chimney sweeps’ union.
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u/ReturnoftheTurd Right Visitor 7d ago
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The CAB doesn’t exist anymore
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Now hold on, they’re delivering packages which UPS and FedEx and other private carriers are clearly authorized to do
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Reindeer are livestock and livestock emissions are already not regulated by the EPA
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Santa is not the only person who gives gifts to children. Their parents do too. Not a monopoly
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His workshop is outside the jurisdiction of the FLSA
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That is Coca Cola and the Catholic Church that advertise Santa, not him.
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See 1
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See 5
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Lies. All his products are FDA approved
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See 5
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See 9
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Gifts of de minimus value are exempt from taxation. Also let’s see the proof he didn’t file a return!
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Hmm…. You might have a point there. But I’ll wait until I see the indictment!
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See 13
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See 5
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 7d ago
Hoping they arrest Santa this Christmas and stop his terrible spree of crime:
Operating a flying sleigh in absence of certification by the CAB, a clear violation of the Civil Aeronautics Act of 1938.
Unlawfully competing with the U.S. Postal Service on air mail deliveries.
Violating EPA requirements for emissions control devices on his reindeer.
Defying the Sherman Anti-Trust Act by maintaining a strict monopoly in his profession.
Violating the Fair Labor Standards Act by failing to pay his elves the minimum wage or proper overtime benefits.
Engaging in unfair promotional advertising, designed to prey on the defenseless minds of children, a violation of Federal Trade Commission regulations.
Failing to secure an ICC permit and an assignment of certified routes by the Interstate Commerce Commission.
Violating numerous Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) regulations by operating an “unsafe workplace.”
Passing out candy canes and goodies not approved by the Food and Drug Administration.
Ignoring the edicts of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 by failing to institute a quota system in his workshop based on race, religion, sex and size (too many elves, not enough giants).
Making toys which have not been approved by the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
Failing to declare the cookies and milk that are put out for him as taxable income with the IRS.
Transporting firearms across state lines as Christmas presents.
Avoiding state and federal taxes on his sleigh, not to mention licensing, registration, and having an operator’s permit.
Violating various National Labor Relations Board regulations, including the maintenance of a non-union shop and unfairly competing with the chimney sweeps’ union.
Nicholas of Myra was a notorious outlaw under Roman emperor Diocletian who later allegedly assaulted a priest from North Africa.
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u/Palmettor Centre-right 7d ago
If he did strike Arius, Arius had it coming.
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 7d ago edited 7d ago
If he did strike Arius, Arius had it coming.
“To the Council, I’ll keep this short, because I do respect what you do for our Church. To save you a lengthy investigation, I state plainly that I wasn’t working with anyone. I do apologize for any strife of traumas but it had to be done. Frankly, this heretic simply had it coming. Evidently I am the first to face it with such brutal honesty.”
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u/Mal5341 Conservatarian 8d ago
So anyone else to the point, after seeing all the bending over backwards some people are defending Gaetz, that the MAGA wing of the GOP is just straight up pedophilic or at least apologists for pedophiles?
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u/ReturnoftheTurd Right Visitor 7d ago
I’m sorry, but who is defending him? The closest I’ve seen from arr con for instance (which is probably a bit more similar to real life MAGAs than Fox News millionaires) is people asking to see documents from the rest of the pedophiles in the government.
Which, regardless if it means I’m a “pedo apologist” I’ll agree with. If we are going to oust pedophiles, how about we do that instead of using it as a political tool 😐
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u/NonComposMentisss Left Visitor 7d ago
The media is just as bad for how they are framing things. Like this CNN headline
House Ethics report finds evidence Matt Gaetz paid thousands for sex and drugs including paying a 17-year-old for sex in 2017
Matt Gaetz did not pay a 17 year old for sex. He paid a sex trafficker, who's currently in jail for sex trafficking, in exchange for raping a 17 year old.
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 7d ago
The headline is inaccurate, but it's certainly not as bad as defending Gaetz.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 8d ago
Honestly the GOP has so many skeletons in the closet at this point having to justify it all isn't worth it.
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u/coldnorthwz New Federalism\Zombie Reaganite 8d ago
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/12/22/democrats-2024-election-problem-focus-group-00195806
Several participants also raised the transgender attack ad that the Trump campaign deployed against Harris, which showed a 2019 clip of her expressing support for gender affirming surgery for state prison inmates. The ad’s tagline included: “Kamala is for they/them. President Trump is for you.” Democrats disagree on the potency of the attack ad, but several participants raised it unprompted in the focus groups.
A lot of the super-lefty Prog stuff under Trump 1 is going to haunt the Dems for a long time, at least anyone up on those primary debate stages.
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u/N0RedDays Liberal Conservative 8d ago
That ad played basically non-stop during the World Series, too.
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u/cyberklown28 Environmentalist 8d ago
The illegal Guatemalan migrant accused of setting a straphanger on fire was once deported — but sneaked back into the US and the NYC shelter system.
A woman was killed on a New York subway train Sunday morning after a man set her clothes on fire with a lighter in what authorities are calling a “brutal murder” and an example of “depraved behavior.”
The suspect was arrested at another subway station in Manhattan about eight hours after the attack, police said.
The assailant approached the woman without saying a word, ignited her clothes and she was enveloped in flames “in a matter of seconds,” police said. Surveillance video appears to show the suspect sitting on a station bench and watching the woman burn as police officers responded.
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u/coldnorthwz New Federalism\Zombie Reaganite 8d ago
https://x.com/RichardRubinDC/status/1871234470503977358?t=UA-oXJVJxAm1qlBxPQTVbA&s=19
At least not everyone in the Senate was for the fiscal insanity
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u/DerrickWhiteMVP Conservatarian 8d ago
The absolute irony of Lenin/Stalin/Guevara/Castro fan girls justifying the cold-blooded murder of someone because they were a “mass murderer that did it legally”. Some of these people are just barbarians disguised as revolutionaries.
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u/Viper_ACR Left Visitor 8d ago
Yeah this is sort of my issue. It won't stop with healthcare executives.
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u/Ihaveaboot Right Visitor 8d ago
I suspect most F500 companies are considering beefing up security budgets for their c-suites because of this incident.
That's an expense that will ultimately be footed by consumers, including those that somehow consider Luigi a hero.
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 8d ago
The part that really gets me is how uncritically people leap to "they forced us to do/support this" when they've never so much as lifted a finger to address the problem before cheerleading cold blooded murder.
Barbaric is a good way to put it.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 8d ago
Something I've wondered after listening to those barbarians and y'all.
I wonder if it's something as simple as "those who still have faith in institutions find him a murderer, those who don't see him as hero worth praise."
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 8d ago
If they want to be anarchists, they are welcome to go move to Sudan and see what it's like to live in a society that really doesn't have functional institutions.
Here's some helpful trips for travel there in a country where murder is commonplace and society no longer cares to condemn it: https://www.state.gov/sudan-travel-advisory-remains-level-4-do-not-travel/
Otherwise, they're just societal leeches LARPing as revolutionaries.
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 8d ago
I wouldn't say they want anarchism, just a dramatic overhaul of the institutions themselves.
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u/Tombot3000 Mitt Romney Republican 8d ago
Yeah anarchists is probably not the ideal term. Maybe late stage capitalists? Not sure what the shorthand is for "believes society has already failed despite all the available evidence to the contrary."
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 8d ago
I would argue they would say it hasn't failed outright, but we are on that path.
What's the old saying? No single drop of rain believes it caused the flood?
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 8d ago
Socially centrist take: Abolish the death penalty, except in cases of court martial. However, MAID may be provided at the convict’s request and with the convict’s legal consent.
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u/NonComposMentisss Left Visitor 8d ago
The House Ethics Committee found evidence that former Rep. Matt Gaetz paid tens of thousands of dollars to women for sex or drugs on at least 20 occasions, including paying a 17-year-old girl for sex in 2017, according to a final draft of the panel’s report on the Florida Republican, obtained by CNN.
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 8d ago
https://www.wsj.com/politics/policy/biden-commutes-sentences-of-37-death-row-inmates-a3d663cf:
Biden Commutes Sentences of 37 Death Row Inmates
‘In good conscience, I cannot stand back and let a new administration resume executions that I halted,’ president said
I don't oppose Biden's decision to prevent the new administration from resuming the executions. However, for the safety of the American public I also can't support allowing the convicted individuals to return to public life.
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u/Viper_ACR Left Visitor 8d ago
IIRC theyre all getting commented to life w/o parole.
Roof, Tsarnaev and that other mass shooter who shot up a synagogue still face execution.
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 8d ago
Might've actually at least respected the decision as principled but nope it's not even that. It's just "we'll leave the guys who leftist activists probably still want dead."
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u/Viper_ACR Left Visitor 8d ago
The optics are bad enough due to his earlier dumbass pardons/commutations, that's part of the issue.
Other part is that most Americas aren't anti-death penalty yet. A lot more are on the left side on the aisle but very, very few on the right side of the aisle oppose it.
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 8d ago
All three are mass murderers, two are terrorists. What led you to such a bizarre take?
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u/redditthrowaway1294 Right Visitor 8d ago
He was perfectly fine with the other mass murderers on the list being commuted. At best, these are the 3 biggest names on there so he decided not to pardon them because of optics rather than any principal. At worst, Dem media tried to tie Roof and Bowers to Trump's rhetoric and that is why he didn't commute them, to please Dem activists.
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u/Spurgeoniskindacool Right Visitor 8d ago
Eh, I get it.
These three people are mass murderers who most definitely did it.
I'm generally opposed to the death penalty, but if it's going to exist, I'd say these three fit my extra requirements:
1. Killed a significant number of people at one time without it being combatants (like a gang or something).
- Higher level of proof that they did it. Execution is so final, you better be extra extra extra sure that they did it.
I think these three meet that requirement.
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 8d ago
I don't support the state having the [legal] ability to kill its citizens, but if anyone on the federal list deserves it it's these three.
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u/wheelsnipecelly23 Left Visitor 8d ago
Good thing Biden commuted their sentences to life without parole then.
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u/Vanderwoolf Left Visitor 8d ago
It's some small comfort knowing that it's cheaper letting these people rot in a cell than it is killing them. "Life in prison; the fiscally responsible punishment."
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u/Nklst Liberal Conservative 8d ago
Germany has one of the most iconic "pro free market" parties in Europe if not World - Free Democratic Party.
But Elon endorses protectionist anti-immigration party, with so much neo Nazis as there were SED commies in PSD and Die Linked.
And compared to them CDU and CSU are also paragons of capitalism, (especially under Merz).
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u/Mexatt Rightwing Libertarian 8d ago
Not to say supporting the AFD is right, but Germany only technically has the FDP at this point. They're a party on the ropes, even moreso than the LDP in Britain or the market oriented factions of the American Republican Party.
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u/TheDemonicEmperor Social Conservative 8d ago
Sure, but the point being that Elon clearly has a lot of sway and could revitalize anything he wants.
He's stated that he's funding Acela Republicans in the upcoming elections in the Northeast, for example. And those have been a dying breed since the 90s.
Point being, Musk is clearly more of a social conservative than a fiscal one after his issues with his daughter.
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u/Nklst Liberal Conservative 8d ago
LibDems just had best election in their history. But tbh, they are very specific and weird party at this point.
FDP might pay the cost of being in distinctional government, but they were ready to dissolve it over issue of spending.
If they remain in Bundestag they can be important ally to Merz and his reforms.
And market oriented politics is hardly on ropes with Merz as the leader of the Union and as Union is leading in the polls.
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u/Mexatt Rightwing Libertarian 8d ago
While true about the LibDems, it's a fluke moment and they really still haven't recovered from shacking up with Cameron. It's also a useless result because of the overwhelming Labour majority.
And the FDP has collapsed to a third or a quarter of their previous support in opinion polls. It's not clear they'll stay in the Bundestag.
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u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right 8d ago
Germany has one of the most iconic "pro free market" parties in Europe if not World - Free Democratic Party.
Took a quick glance at their Wikipedia article, I'm a bit more socially centrist than them.
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u/N0RedDays Liberal Conservative 2d ago
RIP President Jimmy Carter