r/theology • u/GABERATOR10 • 4d ago
Perspective on Hell
Non-Christian here, but was wondering to get some thought on my perspective of hell (or what would be hell).
Hell is an eternal state of nature that exists as a natural consequence of God’s absence. It’s not some fiery pit of divine punishment, but a realm where God’s presence is completely withdrawn. Without God’s order or grace, individuals are left to live in a state ruled entirely by their unrestrained desires and sins. Think of it like a Hobbesian state of nature—chaotic, selfish, and full of conflict. Sin becomes the dominant force, leading to perpetual dissatisfaction and alienation as people experience the emptiness of a life disconnected from God. It’s eternal, but it’s not about active torture or punishment. The suffering comes naturally from the absence of God and the chaos that follows when sin is left unchecked. People are left to fully experience the outcome of their choices without divine intervention or any hope of reconciliation.
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u/Oil_And_Lamps 3d ago
First time commenter here, Christian.
I think it's hard to know exactly what will happen after death.
As you are investigating from a position of "non-Christian", what the Bible says about death, hell and judgement may or may not be of interest and consideration to you.
To dial it right back, the difference between you and I is, I believe that Christ lived, died, and rose again supernaturally, thus proving he was who he said he was (God incarnate), and validating everything he has been recorded as saying, thus validating the entire Bible as "the Word of God".
Therefore, I believe everything that is in the Bible is in there for a reason (some debate whether certain passages are literal or metaphorical).
If you were to gather together every mention of hell in the Bible (https://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell), it would paint a picture about it.
Now after careful reading and study, I still cannot for certain say exactly what will happen, but there are some things you can hang your hat on.
Upon death, the essence of someone is no more. All is left is a shell. According to the Bible, the soul has gone elsewhere. For people who have come to trust in Jesus as their Lord, this place is "paradise". For all others, it is unsure. I hope it is not hell or some holding place; or it may be some sort of "soul sleep"; however I would not like to die with that grey area.
There will be a judgement.
It is hard to say whether after this, the "burning lake of sulphur" is eternal, or if it instantly annihilates. https://www.bible.com/bible/111/REV.20.NIV
Revelation 20:10 says that Satan will be thrown into the lake of sulphur, to burn eternally. Now, it is uncertain whether Satan is made of different material to humans, therefore eternally able to be punished, where humans may not be. This is another grey area I would not like to leave up until the event to find out.
You may be right about the interim period between death and judgement. Perhaps there is a "holding space" that is deprived of God (known as "Hades" or "Death"). And perhaps it's like a Covid lockdown in there, so deprived of light and life.
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u/GABERATOR10 3d ago
I am interested in the Bible from a theological perspective. I'm not totally opposed to becoming Christian, I'm just not convinced of the resurrection of Christ.
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u/Oil_And_Lamps 3d ago
It is a step of faith, however it is also an informed decision. Personally I was starting from the preconception that "if we exist, if the world exists, in all its incredible detail, then something or someone must have created it". Even as a non-Christian, born in a non-Christian home, I couldn't believe it was just "chance" or "evolution".
I was a teenager when I started looking in to it, so the deciding factor for me was an experience I had at a church with the "Holy Spirit" (a tangible physical experience). Much debate has been made over whether it is a "manufactured emotional state" or something truly supernatural, having experienced it I can say it is the latter.
However getting older and trying to nail down what I believed, I found pages like this helpful:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_1351.cfm
The whole religion lives or dies on the information that Christ rose again - but how can we know for sure?
It seems to be a case of deductive reasoning - part reasoning and part faith. I wonder if it is like that by design - that at some point you reach the end of the evidence "for" and have to decide what is "most likely".
"The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel is a true story (film and print) of a non-Christian journalist who was driven mad by his wife's conversion that he set out to prove Christianity wrong, but at some point couldn't, but it still took an honest admittance of that and a move of faith to "trust in the facts to hand"
There are other Christian apologetics that liken the discovery phase to a court case, for example Cold Case Christianty. https://coldcasechristianity.com/
And argue court cases are built on "probability of likelihood" after reviewing the evidence, because no one may ever know for 100% certain who was where at what time and who is guilty, etc.
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u/Mrwolf925 4d ago edited 3d ago
God is not absent in hell, its God's grace which is absent from hell. Gods justice is very much present in hell.
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u/setst777 3d ago
While I agree that the unredeemed will suffer because of their own sinfulness, the Scriptures also describe God's involvement with the torment and punishment they receive.
Romans 2:3 Since you judge others for the same things you practice, how will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing wrath for yourself in the day of wrath, revelation, and the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12]
And those who knew God, and experienced the grace of God's salvation will suffer a worse punishment for falling away into deliberate sin than the unredeemed who rejected God's salvation from the start, or those who never fully understood the Gospel.
Hebrews 10:29-31 (WEB) 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under-foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge His people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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u/No_Leather_8155 3d ago
Those verses are not talking about hell, they're talking about the discipline of God
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u/setst777 3d ago
That is an unusual interpretation considering that the Scriptures I quoted plainly use the following word:
"wrath"
"day of wrath"
"Judgment"
"Punishment"
"Vengeance"
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u/EmitLux Unitarian 2d ago
None of those words are "hell" though.
Sure there is "a day" of "judgement" where there will be "punishment" and "wrath".
And then what?
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u/setst777 2d ago
"Hell" or "Gehenna" are also used, along with many other descriptive terms and illustrations, all used to show that after the Judgment, the unredeemed will be cast outside to be punished forever.
Mark 9:42-50 (WEB) 42 Whoever will cause one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him if he were thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having your two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire, 44 ‘where their worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched.’ [Isaiah 66:24]
45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame, rather than having your two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that will never be quenched – 46 ‘where their worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched.’
47 If your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out. It is better for you to enter into God’s Kingdom with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire, 48 ‘where their worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched.’ [Isaiah 66:24] 49
John 5:28-29 (WEB) 28 Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, 29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the {{{resurrection of life}}}; and those who have done evil, to the {{{resurrection of judgment}}}.
Acts 24:14 I believe all things which are in the law and in the prophets; 15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Daniel 12:2 (WEB) 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and {{{everlasting contempt}}}.
Matthew 25:45-46 (WEB) 45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into {{{eternal punishment}}}, but the righteous into eternal life.”
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u/EmitLux Unitarian 2d ago
Eternal punishment is just death right?
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u/setst777 2d ago
Eternal Punishment is eternal conscious separation from God and His Spirit (eternal death), and also regret and torment according to their works in a place "Outside."
“Death” can mean physical death. "Death" can also mean separation of the sinner’s spirit from God’s presence forever.
For instance, ever since Adam, all men sin, and so, all mankind is dead (separated), but not annihilated. Without salvation a person is separated from the life of God. The believer is restored to spiritual life because of the atoning work of Christ on the cross.
John 5:24 (KJV) 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He who hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 3:16 Whoever believes may have eternal life.
Therefore, the word “death” is more than just the death of the body, but also means spiritual death, which means a separation from God by sin. Spiritual death is, therefore, a eternal destruction (to be irreversibly undone, separated) from God’s Presence, a place “Outside,” which is illustrated in many ways.
‘“Eternal destruction” from the presence of the Lord’ (2 Thessalonians 1:5-10) appears to be the same place as the Eternal Fire, Second Death (Revelation 21:8), the Lake of Fire (Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10), Outside and Outer Darkness, where the unredeemed are cast at the Judgement (Revelation 22:12-15).
Revelation 22:14-15 (WEB) 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 {{{Outside}}} are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Luke 13:28-29 (WEB) 28 There will be [future] weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in God’s Kingdom, and yourselves being thrown {{{outside}}}. 29 They will come from the east, west, north, and south, and will sit down in God’s Kingdom.”
Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the {{{outer darkness}}}. That is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be [future place].
Matthew 25:30 (WEB) Throw out the unprofitable servant into the {{{outer darkness}}}, where [in that place] there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 8:11-12 (WEB) 11 I tell you that many will come from the east and the west, and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven, 12 but the children of the Kingdom will be thrown {{{outside}}} into the outer darkness. There will be (future) weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Jude 1:13 (NIV) 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been {{{reserved forever}}}
There is no judgment for the Saved (John 3:18), but the unbelieving are judged already, and will be judged According To Their Works - you cannot be judged according to your works if all unbelievers just die anyway.
Revelation 20:12 (WEB) I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, {{{according to their works}}}.
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u/EmitLux Unitarian 1d ago
Right, I guess we differ then on the mortality of the spirit. I believe the soul, the breath, is not eternal unless there is eternal life. I can't see any eternal conscious death/separation from God in any of those passages, except for Rev 20, which is not man but a devine being cast out.
Therefore, death means spiritual and physical.
What would change my mind is bibical evidence of eternal CONSCIOUS death that you claimed in your first paragraph.
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u/setst777 1d ago
Those judged unworthy of the Kingdom are cast into outer darkness where, in that place, is weeping and gnashing of teeth. That is conscious torment after the Judgment.
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u/setst777 2d ago
You wrote: ""
The "children of the kingdom" [the Jews are are judged] will be cast "outside" of God's Kingdom into outer darkness.
Matthew 8:11-12 (WEB) 11 I tell you that many will come from the east and the west, and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven, 12 but the {{{children of the Kingdom}}} will be thrown outside into the outer darkness. There will be (future) weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The unprofitable servants of God will be cast out - this is not discipline, but rather a rejection by God into judgement and punishment.
Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to {{{the servants}}}, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness. That is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be [future place].
Matthew 25:30 (WEB) Throw out the {{{unprofitable servant}}} into the outer darkness, where [in that place] there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Many will seek to enter salvation, and think they are saved, but they were not faithful.
Luke 13:24-29 ... 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will {{{try to enter}}} and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
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u/TheMeteorShower 4d ago
Revelation 20:15 [15]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 25:41 [41]Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 14:10 [10]The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
You can believe what you want, but what you said is not found in scripture. Gehenna is a place of fire. It is a place of torment. And it is in Gods prescence.
There is debate regarding annihilation of some humans, but that doesn't seem on point for where the topic discussion started.
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u/Longjumping_Type_901 3d ago
Here's some verses to consider https://www.mercyonall.org/universalism-in-scripture
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u/anonymous_teve 3d ago
This seems reasonable. We don't really know. Christians trust their loving and merciful God to do what he does: be loving and merciful and good and right. I highly recommend reading CS Lewis' book The Great Divorce for an alternate take on hell which has some points in common with your take. Residents of hell can hop on a bus to check out heaven and be persuaded by loved ones who are there, but typically reject it.
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u/ethan_rhys Christian, BA Theology/Philosophy 8h ago
That’s certainly one plausible and common view.
However, some Christians, like me (I think), believe in annihilation. Basically, that your soul is destroyed when you die, and it’s like it was before you were born. You simply cease.
Some annihilationists think there is a brief moment where God shows you your mistakes or where you receive a short punishment.
Others believe you just cease instantly.
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u/Voorhees93 4d ago
That's my perception as well. To me, it makes the most sense, because it falls in line with the Biblical description of God (all-loving, all-good, etc.). I cannot entirely agree with people burning in a lake of fire for all eternity, regardless of whatever sins they've committed. If Gods' love for us is as great as we are being led to believe, then I cannot fathom how he would be okay with us suffering for all eternity that way. Him granting us our request to forever live in our sinful ways is much more merciful. Of course, there is the chance that you and I are entirely wrong about Hell, and if we are, then oh well, it is what it is, but I'm not sure that we are.
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u/Longjumping_Type_901 3d ago edited 3d ago
I agree, as a Christian.
A biblical case: https://salvationforall.org
And http://www.mercyuponall.org/pdfs-click-to-download/gerry-beauchemin-hope-beyond-hell/
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u/International_Bath46 4d ago
this sounds pretty much exactly like the Orthodox position, maybe slight alterations but almost identical.
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u/AlbMonk 3d ago
Christian Universalists, such as myself, believe that Christ's death on the cross provided for the salvation of ALL people regardless of their belief or lack thereof. That ALL people will be saved either in this life now or in the life thereafter, since God's sovereignty transcends all time and place.
Many Christian Universalists believe that those who do not believe, accept, or receive the free gift of salvation in this life now, that they might endure a time in what many may call purgatorial hell, as a temporal place of refinement by fire, ultimately leading to a reconciliation with our loving God.
It is with this understanding that we believe those of other faiths (or no faith) will not spend eternity in a place of eternal conscious torment or be annihilated, but rather will ultimately be reconciled to God and live in eternity with everyone in the presence of King Jesus who lives and reigns with all and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever.
“Every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: blessing and honor and glory and power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, forever and ever.” (Revelation 5:13)
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u/ehbowen Southern Baptist...mostly! 3d ago
As usual, I have my own perspective on the issue. Which boils down to the question of: What are the fundamental motivations of the two opposing parties?
On the side of the God of the Bible, and those who are allied with them, I believe the objective is to gather all peoples into a joyous, united society. That doesn't mean that there can't be enclaves of different "flavors," a galaxy run by C. S. Lewis would likely have a much different feel than a star system run by Cotton Mather (Lewis's would most likely be much more popular!). But there is a unity of justice and law while leaving room for a huge variety of societal and behavioral norms.
On the side of the Entity Also Known As Satan and those allied with/subsumed by him, I believe the ultimate objective is the opposite. He doesn't want everyone gathered into one place, call it a lake of fire or no. No, I believe that his objective is to slowly find and weaken the bonds which connect you to spouses, lovers, family, friends, acquaintances...and then rip them away, leaving you completely isolated...except for him. You're trapped in his basement, as it were...I believe there's a spiritual reason we had that spate of stories twenty years or so back about children who had been kept prisoner in the basements of parents for years on end...and he is free to torture you at his leisure. That torture is probably personalized; it might take the form of classical hell fire, yes, but it might also take the form of disease, pressure, poverty, or just pure isolation. Satan's goal, I believe is to bring you to the point where you give up. If you, at the core of your soul, stop even crying out for help and rescue...then you are totally lost.
Until and unless The World's Greatest Detective goes over your trail to track you down. Stay tuned.
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u/Longjumping_Type_901 4d ago edited 3d ago
I don't believe the Bible teaches "hell" (any three of them) is "eternal" as in endless, but that aionion means age during or age lasting when the kolasin is mentioned in Matthew 25:46.
https://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/ So in other words, aionion kolasin is an age lasting chastisement or rehabilitative correction, not an endless torture chamber.
https://christianitywithoutinsanity.com/