r/progun • u/RationalTidbits • 10d ago
Gun Storage Legislation
Obviously a current topic…
Obviously, storage requirements are an infringement on self-protection, not just for adults in the house, but also, say, for a teenage girl who finds herself facing a 200-pound, armed intruder when her parents happen to be away from home.
But what about the case of a child who is a known threat, like that Virginia six-year-old who shot his teacher? (Or whatever other scenario you imagine.) The parents have criminal and civil liability for failure to store guns under whatever imagined requirements?
To be clear, I am on the no-storage-requirements side of this. (It’s just another avenue in the pursuit of nullification.) But talk me through the gray areas and outlier cases.
** Re-stating the question more clearly: Give me gun storage scenarios (if any), where you would say, hands down and without hesitation, THAT parent 100% needs criminal charges. **
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Thank you! You all helped me put a sharper edge on my thinking.
Here is where I have landed so far:
— If a child or teenager becomes committed to murder or self-deletion, LOTS of things have gone wrong that have nothing to do with the presence or storage of a gun.
— Parenting and home are the keys to understanding the problem, and they are a more effective solution, rather than storage laws, which only serve to criminalize gun ownership.
— That said, if anyone actively “aids” a known criminal or obviously dangerous person… or actively contributes to a situation that no reasonable person would (such as leaving a loaded gun on a daycare table)… then there are already laws to hold people accountable.
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u/phylth118 10d ago
Well I think it’s becoming more and more obvious that a persons intent cannot be safeguarded against 100% no matter what. Laws or policies are created, and irresponsibility is gonna be irresponsible no matter what,
I’m all for armed to the teeth and have a gun stashed in almost every room of my house, excluding the basement bathroom, but that’s because there’s one just outside the door, I don’t have kids in the house anymore but when I did I kept all the big boom booms locked up with only myself and the wife having access to them, the largest caliber my kids would be able to get their hands on was a 380, in our bedroom but had .22 stashed around so if that situation happened they could handle it, but my thinking was along the lines of
My children will be trained, comfortable, responsible and knowledgeable when it comes to firearms, and self defense, just as I was.
Teaching them the responsibilities of owning firearms and Fists was imperative, and my responsibility as a parent, and one does that best by demonstrating it effectively, and nothing is more important than than teaching them to talk to you about the things that are going on in their little lives, as well as making sure they have limited exposure to things that would influence them negatively,
In other words parents who make poor irresponsible choices directly or indirectly teach their children to make poor irresponsible choices, they are sponging up what ever you put out just as quickly as you put it out..
(I’m also a democrat… yeah I know, the down votes will come for that reason alone..)
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u/Paladin_3 10d ago
You advocate for responsible parenting in all things. I don't care what party you are a member of, you and I are on the very same page. Almost all of society's ills can be solved right at home by raising children to be responsible citizens.
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u/RationalTidbits 10d ago
Okay. I get what you’re saying. So, no criminal penalties for “failing” to secure guns, in whatever way someone might try to define that?
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u/phylth118 10d ago edited 10d ago
No, I do think there has to be a way to insure that people who own firearms DO NOT allow their unstable child access to these weapons, but the best way to prevent an unstable child is to be an attentive parent,
Case in point, my son is black and Asian, when he was 11 we moved to a small town and kids picked on him calling him “Blackie Chan” not understanding he literally was because he was a black belt by the time he was 9 as was his sister before him,
Because I taught him to talk to dad about stuff he did and I gave him the advice on how to handle that immediately(basically I told him to kick that first kids ass) he did so without hesitation, and never had another problem,
we didn’t call the school and complain, we didn’t hold a parent conference and discuss bullying, we let our son handle his issues with our permission (and in that case blessing) and when the school called us saying he was “acting out and being physically aggressive” I asked them why they thought that was, when the principal didn’t have an answer, I said maybe instead of suspending him and calling me, you should talk to him and believe what he says, they did and still suspended him, but I was fine with that cus sometimes you get punished for doin the right thing, and I’m from the ancient African FAFO tribe soo there’s that,
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u/RationalTidbits 10d ago
I like that: Parenting, family, and home probably explain part of the problem, and are probably a more effective solution.
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u/phylth118 10d ago
Unfortunately just like you can’t legitimately stop gun crime, you can’t legitimately make people be responsible parents,
You can’t poison a plant and wonder why it dies, and so far it seems there’s a lot more poison available than water..(I was gunna say fertilizer, but there’s plenty enough bullshit to go around)
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u/emurange205 10d ago
But what about the case of a child who is a known threat, like that Virginia six-year-old who shot his teacher? (Or whatever other scenario you imagine.) The parents have criminal and civil liability for failure to store guns under whatever imagined requirements?
If the parents had kept the guns stored in some legally prescribed manner and the kid got the gun, would the parents still be liable?
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u/RationalTidbits 10d ago
If the child in question found a way to circumvent precautions, as many children do, then I would say “no.” But we also know that gun control advocates would push for prosecution, no matter the circumstances, to penalize the “crime” of having a gun at all.
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u/emurange205 10d ago
But we also know that gun control advocates would push for prosecution, to penalize the “crime” of having a gun at all.
Of course. What are the gray areas you want to talk about?
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u/RationalTidbits 10d ago
Is there a scenario… any scenario… where you would say, yeah, THAT parent should get criminal charges?
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u/SovietRobot 10d ago
It’s less about storage and more about controlling access to your guns against people who might not be legal to do so.
Like - it’s already illegal to transfer guns to a someone you believe might be a felon or mentally defective or under age or not a resident etc. So I would be liable if I handed a gun to the crazy person on the street, or if I haded a gun to a toddler on the street. But also if I handed a gun to my kid that I know has mental issues.
But conversely, if it’s just me at home - why is government trying to tell me how I can store my guns in my house that itself has a locked door?
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u/RationalTidbits 10d ago
Okay. The presence or storage of a gun are not “criminal” by default, but a parent or gun owner who actively “aids” a known criminal or clearly dangerous person could face charges/liability.
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u/SovietRobot 10d ago
a parent or gun owner who actively “aids” a known criminal or clearly dangerous person could face charges/liability.
Which is already the case. If I leave my gun on the table at a day care - I for sure will be liable. If I sell my gun to someone I believe is a criminal - I for sure will be liable.
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u/DannyBones00 10d ago
I’m on the actual common sense side.
What works for one person may not work for another. Regulating storage requirements is an infringement. If I don’t have kids in my house and never have visitors and I want to keep a Glock on my nightstand an an AR in the kitchen, let me.
But if you have a 16 year old son with known mental health problems and you buy him guns or give him access to yours, and something happens? Man I have a hard time with that.
I like leaving it up to responsible individuals to determine their risk and make the right decision.
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u/RationalTidbits 10d ago edited 10d ago
This is where I was stuck, before this thread.
The devil is in “give him access”. Does that mean all guns for all people must be secured by whatever requirements? And what if the kid finds a way to circumvent? Is that still criminal on the parent?
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u/DannyBones00 10d ago
I’ve not given a lot of thought to this, but to me, if the parents make reasonable efforts to secure their firearms and the kid goes to some crazy lengths to get around those efforts, the parents aren’t really to blame.
But it’s the willful negligence that gets me. Like that one case recently where the parents knew their son was a mess.
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u/RationalTidbits 10d ago
Okay. Willful or active participation in something that is known to be criminal or obviously dangerous. I can go there.
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u/PIHWLOOC 10d ago
If you can’t handle owning guns AND kids, pick one or the other. Honestly someone that can’t handle both probably shouldn’t have kids at all, but I’m not going to say any right should be restricted as a result of a situation like that one.
However - the parents should also be liable for anything that happens with their firearms that were negligently left out, taken by the kid, and used to kill or injure another person.
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u/RationalTidbits 10d ago edited 10d ago
“negligently left out” — by what definition?
“taken by the kid” — even by deception or stealth?
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u/PIHWLOOC 10d ago
Deception or stealth from a fuckin 6 year old? It’s negligent to have any firearm out that a kid can get to and use maliciously.
Definition being (in a legal setting): In legal terms, negligence refers to a failure to exercise the level of care that a reasonable person would in a similar situation, resulting in harm or damage. In the context of a minor taking someone’s gun and causing harm, negligence could arise if the gun owner failed to take reasonable precautions to secure the firearm and prevent unauthorized access.
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u/RationalTidbits 10d ago
And this is the gray area…
Yes, kids (6 or 17) finds ways around precautions, whether it’s bad intent, curiosity, or whatever.
“negligent to have any firearm out” seems to imply any non-storage, according to whatever requirements, could be criminal, and I’m not really on board with that.
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u/PIHWLOOC 10d ago
Again just goes back to my original statement: if you can’t handle keeping guns out of reach, or educating your children, or any of it you shouldn’t have children.
If you do, you should have the firearms secured or unsecured in such a fashion that the kid can’t find it, load it, and shoot someone else with it. Grey area or not you’re liable for negligence if something happens with your firearm that you were unaware of when a minor gets to it. Especially if it’s your child.
For example: when our friends come over with their kids, my usual spaces for storing guns have the guns moved and kept in my safe, except for one that is hidden that they’d never know to look for or have any reason being around. Being a parent and exercising that same caution shouldn’t be out of the question?
Ie: daytime keep the shit locked up, nighttime take it and keep it in the nightstand or whatever. If you see it’s not where you left it, immediately investigate and if it’s not in the house it gets reported?
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u/GlockAF 10d ago
Every gun you own should be secured any time it’s not in your immediate control. Full stop, no question. This is one of the most basic principles of responsible gun ownership.
In a car glovebox? Not secured.
On top of your refrigerator or on a high shelf in your bedroom closet? Not secured.
Nightstand drawer or tucked innthe couch cushions? Not secured.
Doesn’t matter if your car or house is locked, secure your guns when you’re not there .
Not recognizing this basic responsibility is NOT standing on principle, it’s negligence and irresponsibility.
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u/Zin_dawg 10d ago
As a thought experiment: what liability would (should) parents have if this teenager has taken a car, and killed a classmate and a teacher? Should car keys, (or dangerous tools, like chainsaws) be locked up, the same way we lock up guns?
My kids are now adults; growing up, we were lucky that they were trustworthy. I have no idea how we would’ve handled this sort of “bad seed”
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u/RationalTidbits 10d ago
If a teenager “sneaks” a car out, my thought is that the liability is probably civil.
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u/Zin_dawg 10d ago
Agreed!
So, why the difference with guns? If a person is murdered, why is it kinda ok if a car is used, but not a gun? Is it because the advantages of gun ownership are discounted? So guns are seen as “only used by criminals/in crime”?
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u/iowamechanic30 10d ago
Step one: does it invoke the second amendment. Yes Step two: is it consistent with the history and tradition of gun laws at the time the second amendment was written. No UNCONSTITUTIONAL. It's not complicated.
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u/peloquindmidian 9d ago
I trust my kids implicitly
I've trained them since they were old enough to walk
I still lock up the guns because I don't trust their friends
I don't know those stupid fuckers (which I assume them to be as a safety precaution)
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8d ago
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u/Teknodruid 10d ago
Responsible parenting in teaching kids guns are not toys.
There will always be outliers & you can't regulate anything 100% & still pretend to be a "free society"