r/personalfinance • u/ekampp • Jul 02 '19
I received an accidental mail with all salaries for everyone in the company Employment
Hey, first time posting here. Hope this post will be ok.
This is problematic in regards to personal information discretion, but my issue is:
I realized I'm being significantly underpaid in comparison to others who do the same work as me.
I feel frustrated and upset about that fact. Not sure how to approach from here.
How would you approach the situation?
EDIT 1: Thanks for all the answers. There are many good ones in-between!
There are also a few that clearly want to see the world burn 😅
I had never expected this many replies, so please don't hold it against me for not answering each one of you.
RESULT:
First off. Again, thank you to all of you, who pitched in with your personal experiences, hardships, concerns, and advice. I have read through most of all ~2000 of them 😅
I have chosen to simply delete and bury the faulty email, and I will add a bit about being careful to not forward email-chains in our security newsletter this month instead. This way it will benefit everyone in the company to be wary of forwarding email-chains. The WHOLE chain will be forwarded.
I had a sit-down with the boss-man, and he agreed to give me a raise, and a promotion.
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u/Headsup1958 Jul 02 '19
Exact same thing happened to me. I found I was earning ~15% less than peers doing the same work with the same education, experience and skills. I approached my manager and asked my salary be reset to the market rate.
As my company was downsizing, my boss gave me a 1% increase and said flippantly if I didn’t like it I could try to find something outside the company.
I did exactly that and found a job paying market rate.
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u/sfdude2222 Jul 03 '19
I hate to break it to you, but your boss didn't think you were as valuable as you thought. Don't get me wrong, you might be absolutely amazing and your a boss a total moron but if they didn't try harder they really don't value you.
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u/U-B-Ware Jul 03 '19
I think the important thing is that "market rate" takes into account both good and bad employee's of that position.
Even if he was not as valuable as he thought, it makes sense to go elsewhere and be paid more.
A poorly performing employee might perform better in a new environment anyways
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u/MissCandid Jul 03 '19
Can confirm. Source: am a former poorly performing employee. Not a bad worker, just hated my job.
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u/fsociety79 Jul 03 '19
I recently left my old job due to certain people chatting shit in front of me. One day I decided to say 'fuck it' and I walked out. I have no regrets and I feel better for it. I spoke with one of my former colleagues and he said it's just not the same without me anymore. Companies that don't value their employees will never learn and they will never get the best out of their work force. They will all eventually go under.
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u/mene-tekel Jul 03 '19
Things like this made me realize that no matter the education you have you can still be clueless about things that really matter.
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u/Muddbiker Jul 03 '19 edited Jul 03 '19
As a CPA, I can say that there are businesses/managers that undervalue everybody and businesses/managers that overvalue everybody. It does not always boil down to the appreciation (or lack thereof) of an individual and what the individual brings to the table. I have seen people underpaid at $50,000 and people overpaid at $150,000.
EDIT: Blew up a little! I realized as I was writing this that my last statement was less than clear. Sorry for the lazy post.
The roles I am describing above are for the same position, same size institution, same complexity, same industry and same region. The $50,000 person does a better job than the $150,000.
In the case of the employer at the $50k location, everyone is undervalued/underpaid. In the case of the $150k, everyone is overpaid.
The point I was trying to make was that being low balled may not reflect the employer's respect/appreciation for a specific employee. It could be their entire frame of reference for scale of what an employee should cost.
I have clients that happily pay us $100,000 a month. Someone else might look at the same services and say $3,000 was too much. Don't work with people whose perspective is off in a way that is to your disadvantage.
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u/Bacon_Bitz Jul 03 '19
They were making cutbacks and it’s easier to let someone decent quit than have to let go of anyone.
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u/menow555 Jul 02 '19
Let them know you got the email. Just respond, cc HR, and say oopsies, I think this sensitive information went to the wrong person.
Then, schedule a meeting to talk to HR about compensation based on market rate and your merit. NEVER mention the email in this conversation, but schedule the meeting so soon after letting them know about the email that theres no mistaking that you know. They might be embarrassed enough, and appreciate your discretion enough to make this go away quietly.
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u/wildmaiden Jul 02 '19
This is good advice. But it only works if you NEVER mention the email! You can imply that you saw it by scheduling a discussion quickly, but don't use it as direct leverage, that is a bad idea.
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u/unknowntroubleVI Jul 02 '19
What happens if you mention it? He didn’t do anything wrong by accidentally receiving it right?
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Jul 02 '19
That would make it more blackmail-y and less of a discussion about how the raise is deserved. You want the person across the table to end up on your side.
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Jul 02 '19 edited Jul 08 '20
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u/SuperRob Jul 03 '19 edited Jul 03 '19
You can backdoor the email into the conversation by talking about “market rate for positions in this area.” They can’t deny what the market rate is when they flat out sent you data on it. But again, you don’t draw attention to the email directly.
(Edit: What’s up with downvoting people you disagree with? Never mind my 20+ years of experience negotiating salaries, as well as having been in this exact situation.)
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u/nbgrout Jul 03 '19
FixYoSubjunctive is right...he/she didn't say it IS blackmail, just that it is blackmail adjacent and might be perceived as blackmail by the employer even though you are correct that it probably wouldn't be under the law. If you are asking your employer for a raise, you want them to view you as someone they want to keep around; they likely wouldn't want to keep around someone that coerces them using the accidental email as leverage.
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u/tamingjackie Jul 03 '19
Also salaries shouldn't be a secret. A good company is transparent. By keeping salaries secret, the company literally gets away with discriminating by paying others less for the same job/duties/experience.
Pay secrecy is often illegal. The person that accidentally sent this to the OP can't be punished. Nor can the OP be punished for knowing about it and using it in negotiations.
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Jul 03 '19
It's not strictly illegal in every cass. Not publishing salaries because you don't want employees talking about it? Fine. Forbidding employees from discussing their salaries with each other? Illegal.
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u/AndrewIsOnline Jul 03 '19
Do you not understand tact?
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u/Synkope1 Jul 03 '19
That is exactly what companies rely on to get everyone to be quiet about what they're paid. Pretending like it's secret info only ever helps the employer. Tact would be they employer being transparent about salaries. Tact would be paying your employees fairly.
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u/GGATHELMIL Jul 02 '19
They know they're in some shit. Hr is sitting there going "what are they gonna do" "what are we gonna have to compensate for" and immediately go towards worse case scenario.
You come in nice and calm saying that you realized that you're worth more and throw a number out and it's immensely better than their worst case scenarios. They gladly accept and think they won.
I learned this tactic at a young age with my parents. You want that ice cream after dinner but know they're gonna say no? Go big. Tell Mom you want her to bake fresh brownies from scratch. When she says no and you counter with just a quick simple popsicle she will be more likely to accept thinking she "won".
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u/kelseyD20 Jul 03 '19
Thanks for helping me realize that my kids do this to me. I’ll definitely be on the lookout for this kind of malicious swindling in the future.
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u/showraniy Jul 03 '19
Not saying you're wrong, because that's exactly how I think of negotiations, but the one time I tried that so far in my short career, the unprofessional HR chick on the other end immediately got an attitude about how the position "wasn't worth that."
It's an okay job otherwise, but my whole hiring process was the biggest dent they could've ever put in my longterm stay.
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u/loonygecko Jul 03 '19
My brother and sister in law were the biggest suckers for this. Their kid would also cry as part of the leverage if they said no and then they'd cave. Yeah my brother always thought he was being soooo strict if he managed to whittle down the demands at all before caving. Hopefully you did not turn out as whiny and spoiled as my niece. ;-P
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Jul 02 '19 edited Mar 02 '20
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u/elus Jul 02 '19
This is the lie that people are fed to put up with lower wages. In any other profession, pure transparency of salaries is used properly by employees to negotiate in good faith an appropriate wage for their position. Employers count on information asymmetry to keep employees from asking for a proper wage. The value of an individual contributor will not vary much in a way that most managers can justify large variances in pay between different employees.
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u/Tammytalkstoomuch Jul 03 '19
Definitely happened to us. My husband was senior to the other employees in his area, had extra responsibilities and topped the stats. He repeatedly asked for a raise and was told there was no money for one, he was already making way more than the market average etc etc. A lady who had not worked in the industry before was hired, and got fired 3 months in for a positive drug test. They put her final pay slip on his desk instead of hers - they had hired her on a salary that was several thousand dollars higher than what my husband was getting. He left the job, no second chances for that sort of treatment. Knowing that they valued him after 7 years less than a new hire made it clear he was never going to advance. We're all way happier.
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u/calmbill Jul 02 '19
Certainly not any other profession. I've never had a job as an adult with salary transparency. Though, from salary surveys and job offers I've received, I have a pretty good understanding of my value in the job market.
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u/Mookiepoo22 Jul 02 '19
Disagree completely on the point about no significant variance in value of employee. I have employees that are 2 to 3 times more productive than others. Some people are much better than the rest at their job.
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u/dasitmanes Jul 02 '19
Let me guess, they don't make 2 to 3 times as much salary than others..
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u/AsteriskCGY Jul 02 '19
Well then can you successfully argue that to their face? It's one thing to have pay variance based on metrics of productivity, but to try and trick them to hold to a lower salary is a completely different issue.
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u/KhamsinFFBE Jul 03 '19
The value of an individual contributor will not vary much in a way that most managers can justify large variances in pay between different employees.
There can be a huge difference in employee value to the company, even in the same position. Your experience, personal relationships with clients, trust the management has in you to make the best decisions for the company and to keep things going the way they would, etc. all factor into it.
Two doctors, two attorneys, two engineers, two actuaries, two of pretty much anybody may have wildly different value even if their business card says the same thing.
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u/Devinology Jul 03 '19 edited Jul 03 '19
Value should be earned though. Hiring someone new at a higher pay than a top performing long time employee is just ludicrous. Regardless of what they say on their resume or in an interview, they aren't tested. This implies that either they are making a terrible gamble on a new hire they think has potential, which is dumb, or they are underpaying a tried and tested staff that is clearly valuable enough to keep around. New hires should always start at the same pay, and then compensation can very based on performance after that. And it should really only vary so much, unless it's a job about directly bringing in money like in sales.
It's also not smart to essentially punish the lower performing employees, as they won't be motivated to improve. The possibility of higher payout generally isn't enough to motivate people to do more, according to psychological studies. The highest paid people are the ones that pushed for it and did whatever it took to get paid more, but aren't generally the most productive or "good" employees. They're good at playing the game, not at their jobs. I mean I guess in fields like finance that's literally the same thing, but that's a whole other topic.
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u/SUCK_MY_DICTIONARY Jul 02 '19
I heard a tale of a guy at my company who was fired for this, precisely. I don't know how they approached it legally but he got boofed.
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u/BirdDogFunk Jul 02 '19
Boofed, eh? Where do you work exactly and how do I get on board?
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Jul 02 '19
Very good point. Given the magnitude of information here, I'd really go straight to the most senior HR person in the company and describe the contents of the email. I would not simply email it around to someone in HR. Not even everyone in HR would necessarily be privy to the entire company's salary table. It really depends on the company and their policies of course, but many folks in HR will just be there as facilitators to set up interviews, run benefits, etc.
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u/suihcta Jul 02 '19
Obviously it depends on the email server, but in Google Apps, for instance, if you receive an email with an attachment, reply to it, and CC somebody new, the new person won’t get the attachment.
If you FORWARD it to somebody new, they might.
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u/ourmanflint1 Jul 02 '19
One bit on semantics: Ask for an "Adjustment" not a "Raise" the implication being that you are seeking parity with your co-workers versus a reward. It changes the conversation.
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u/SomeInternetRando Jul 02 '19
This is the correct answer. Asking your supervisor for a merit-based raise is the "right" way of going about it, but then you're throwing away leverage that, if used correctly as you describe, can be an amazing political tool.
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u/menow555 Jul 02 '19
Also be prepared for them to bring up the email in your negotiation. Have your response ready. "I'd rather talk about my contribution independent of my coworkers" or "I have promptly deleted that email. I like Jim (who sent the email.) I know what it's like to send an email in error, and how valuable it is to have coworkers who can contain a mistake. It's very important to me that the information stay discrete. I dont want to contribute to the gossip mill. I do want to discuss the market rate as I've been doing some research..."
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u/SomeInternetRando Jul 02 '19
You, good sir or madam, are in either management or politics, not that there's always a distinction to be made between the two.
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u/money_tester Jul 02 '19
It's more like what people romanticize a political game is, when it's nothing of the sort.
As soon as you say "I like Jim (who sent the email.) I know what it's like to send an email in error, and how valuable it is to have coworkers who can contain a mistake. It's very important to me that the information stay discrete.", you will be fired on the spot.
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u/not_here_for_memes Jul 02 '19
Why would you be fired on the spot?
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u/money_tester Jul 02 '19
because companies don't like to reward blackmailers with money. It's a free excuse to get rid of someone with no repercussions legally. No judge on the planet is going to look at the quote given and say "what blackmail!?!" like this thread is doing.
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u/14u2c Jul 02 '19
So your advice is to blackmail HR? Somehow I don't think that will go over well.
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u/RebelLemurs Jul 02 '19
No HR department in the world is going to be receptive to a comparison of your salary versus other employees. It's not amazing leverage, its a flaming bag of dog shit and you don't want to step in it.
Consumers spend money to hide embarassment. Companies embarass themselves to save money. They really do not care, and they shouldn't. It wouldn't be good business.
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u/CardboardSoyuz Jul 02 '19
Same way that Herc made Sergeant. Don't mention it. Just let it sit there like a bad perogi.
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u/Kaldaur Jul 02 '19
The Wire is always useful as a metaphor for real life.
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u/SheFoundMyUzername Jul 02 '19
So I shouldn’t kill my rivals on a Sunday morning because there’s been a truce in place since forever?
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Jul 02 '19 edited Nov 07 '19
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u/fati-abd Jul 02 '19
It sounds more like TV show writing than something that will be interpreted & play over well in real life.
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u/money_tester Jul 02 '19
This is an excellent way to get fired in a right-to-work state.
Yall are crazy with this blackmail game.
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u/CrotalusHorridus Jul 02 '19
At Will Employment is what you mean
Right to Work means you don’t have to join the union if your employer has one
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u/saufcheung Jul 02 '19
Compensation is a combination of your market value and how far you are willing to press your company to give you said market value.
People are generally underpaid because they lack the knowledge of fair market value for their skill set and/or willing to accept lower value because of another variable such as comfort, work/life balance, etc.
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u/noisy_goose Jul 02 '19
So true. Whenever I see posts like this, either implicitly or explicitly stated by OP, the first thing it indicates is they didn’t negotiate the best deal they could have when they were hired.
It’s super common, and I just see it as a tool to make the next negotiation better.
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u/jlrol Jul 02 '19
I was hired when I was admittedly way underqualified for the position and was happy to take a low end salary to get a chance to try out the industry, but have quickly excelled in it and been given multiple promotions in less than three years.. the problem is my company is unwillingly to pay me market value/anything near my colleague in the same role because it is such a large jump from my starting salary.
Do you have any advice for me in this situation? Is it time to start looking at different companies?
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u/yusoffb01 Jul 02 '19
With your experience, you can try applying and see what other companies offer
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u/jlrol Jul 02 '19
I should start applying, but my original lack of credentials is kind of still an issue for me and I think my current company knows this and knows it would be difficult for me to get a new job without any schooling to back me up. But I also won't know for sure until I try so I should probably stop making excuses and just push out of my comfort zone a little
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u/noisy_goose Jul 03 '19
Then I would put out feelers just in case. Network. And bide your time until you have the experience on paper to get the next job.
The other thing I didn’t mention, and I’ve been on the receiving end of this as well as hiring with it in mind, is that sometimes the company is hiring you because you seem bright but are underqualified BECAUSE they don’t want to pay the market value.
It’s not your “fault” you didn’t negotiate a high salary, the circumstances are what they are, and you’re essentially paying a price to earn the experience you want because it looked like the most favorable move at the time.
I’ve done exactly the same thing, and I would say just don’t get too comfortable and make sure to keep your eyes on the market and the next move. This isn’t your worth it’s just a stepping stone.
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u/ApocMonk Jul 02 '19
My suggestion is to move companies, I had a similar situation where I moved in to IT within a company. I got good raises for the 3 years that I worked IT there but because I had started so low I was still underpaid, when I left they were hiring people for the same amount I was making despite being the "senior" tech who ran things day to day. When I changed jobs I ended up getting a 36% pay increase, the new company even offered more than I asked for so I feel like I left some money on the table.
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u/Rand_o Jul 02 '19
I was in the same exact situation, I had a great relationship with my boss and he basically told me it would just not be possible, so I left for a giant pay raise to somewhere else. I am happy with my decision.
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u/pab_guy Jul 02 '19
Yes.... but any decent manager will not let your pay get that far out of line with the market. OP should find somewhere new to work.
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u/llama_ Jul 03 '19
Last year I found out a coworker was being paid 35k more than me. Same job same responsibilities, she was just hired at a different time and she had a more senior title. So I was pretty blunt and starting asking people their salaries and realized that there were huge discrepancies to the point of 50k. Literally for all the same work. Anyways I made an appt with my boss, asked what their plans for me were and that I wanted to make sure there was a plan to promote my career development (at that point it had been there over 2 years, at my first year review was promoted but only a 2K raise and didn’t have a review since) they said the company was essentially strapped for cash and I said I think I’m being underpaid. They asked me how I knew and I said I just knew the salaries of other employees.
Here’s where a lot of people say I should have stayed quiet. But I disagree - my cards were firmly on the table. They told me they could review my salary in 6 months.
So - I started responding to recruiters I was previously ignoring on linked in. Had a job offer in a matter of weeks at 20k more and a promotion. I told my boss, they offered me a promotion and 10k more but said they had no money besides. So I left. Got promoted again and another 15k 3 months later.
All to say - it was a ballsy risky move (I’m a girl and always feel awkward in these situations and feel like I’m worth less) looking back it was the best move ever. In 3 months I moved up two titles and had 35k more (and other benefits) if I would have followed other people’s advice I wouldn’t have had the nerve to so brazenly chase that paycheck.
So I say fuckem. Schedule your meeting, ask for more money, tell them you know your worth and if they don’t set a plan in writing for your raise, look elsewhere. Cause you just got a slap in the face with the reality that you’re being paid what you will accept and it’s sub par. Don’t sit on that info.
Throw your balls on the wall and hussle for that money honey!!!!
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u/Bozzaholic Jul 03 '19
Its the same in the UK. We had a member of staff get an "unofficial warning" for speaking about salaries even though its perfectly legal, management just don't want to deal with the pay disparity.
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u/808Adder Jul 03 '19
I worked for a big European company in the UK and it was explicit in my contract that my salary was confidential and disclosing it was grounds for discipline.
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u/debunkernl Jul 03 '19
Those clauses are illegal in the U.K, and in most developed countries for that matter.
See here for more info: https://zlogg.co.uk/can-legally-discuss-work-pay-colleagues/
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u/emul0c Jul 03 '19
I disagree to some extent. It hurts the lowest paid employees, but not the highest paid. Meaning a strong negotiator is not necessarily able to achieve a higher salary, and will basically just negotiate for everybody; which will likely give him/her a lower compensation as they would have gotten, if everybody else didn’t require the same. The highest paid employees will basically finance the salary of the lowest paid employees, if there is full transparency. This is exactly what we see in trades that is strongly unionized, eg Nurses and Teachers. You can be the hospitals best nurse, or the best teacher at the school, and still you will never be able to get compensated more than the worst nurse or the worst teacher. Perhaps you get a more “fair” salary on average, but the best in class is definitely punished.
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u/GentleLion2Tigress Jul 03 '19
Great strategy you took. Businesses will consider the chances of a person leaving when evaluating compensation. Here’s a good one; I was in the same boat, asked for a review of my compensation and HR said I’m at market value. Scouted opportunities and accepted an offer that paid $30K more. My manager came to my office and tried to convince me that the money wasn’t worth changing jobs for and wouldn’t change my lifestyle (this represented a 40% raise). Right.
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u/BlazinAzn38 Jul 02 '19
During your yearly review ask for a raise based on your merits only.
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u/ccb621 Jul 02 '19
You can also ask for a market increase to bring your salary in line with the industry.
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u/BlazinAzn38 Jul 02 '19
True but they can also just say no to you. If you're doing that it might be ideal to have an offer on the table to truly back it up. A lot of this depends on the discrepancy. If it's 5-10% maybe it works if your employer is nice but anything above that is a pretty large jump.
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u/lucidspoon Jul 02 '19
Problem with that is the company might assume they are looking to leave and find a replacement pretty quickly. A backup offer is only good if you're willing to take it.
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u/narf865 Jul 02 '19
Yup, I highly recommend not bringing up another offer unless you are ready to take it and if you are ready, why not take it?
Stick to your merit and the things you bring to the company. Also if you can get some similar salaries without outright saying you are leaving
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u/GrayGhost18 Jul 02 '19
Yeah and as a general rule, never take a counter offer from your employer, at least that's how I operate. Sure you might have an employer that realizes your worth and counters the offer appropriately and that's it. More likely you're employer is going to hold onto you until he can train someone else to do your job and then let you go after.
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u/eggtart_prince Jul 02 '19
One time, a colleague of mine did this and was let go a few weeks after the raise after he rejected the offer from the other company. Gossip around the office says that the manager intentionally did that to my colleague over.
Play your cards carefully.
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u/clhydro Jul 02 '19
My bosses said they would like the opportunity to match any offer I receive. I mentioned it to my mom and she said she knew someone who went through a similar situation as your colleague.
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u/DeathfireD Jul 02 '19
You could also do it during one of your quarterly reviews (if you have one). I did this. I went with examples of what someone in my field with the same amount of years experience was making at all the local companies around mine and asked them for a salary adjustment based on that and on how much extra work I was doing. If OP has proof that he or she deserves a raise/merit increase/salary adjustment..etc and the company is doing good financially, they may approve it before their department budgets are made. Obviously if OP is just doing the minimum and has only worked their for a year, then they probably won't do anything.
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u/fredsterchester Jul 02 '19
Where did you go to do the research?
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u/brewmax Jul 02 '19
I would also like to know the answer to this. Best place to research salaries for similar job descriptions?
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u/Diodon Jul 02 '19
If they don't grant you an acceptable raise, you still have a better sense of what your skills are worth. Make use of that knowledge when you are ready to explore new opportunities. Remember that job interviews go both ways. You want to convey what you can offer but they need to make their own case that they can offer you what you are worth.
"The best time to look for a job is when you already have one."
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Jul 02 '19 edited Jun 27 '20
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u/Saikou0taku Jul 02 '19
How do you say "We do the same exact job, pay me the same", in a merit oriented way?
"The market rate for someone with my position, degree(s), certifications, and experience is ____. I noticed my pay is below that, despite my most recent review rating me as 'excellent' " Or something like that.
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Jul 02 '19
I really don't like that approach personally. Much easier IMO to look at other job postings in your area and show what they are paying, and that their abilities line up with yours. It lets the company know what they can expect to pay if they had to replace you and if you are doing a good job it's much easier and less costly to just keep you at that pay rate.
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u/drummerftw Jul 02 '19
Frustratingly, there are plenty of jobs where the advert will only say 'Competetive salary', leaving you to have a guess at what that is.
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u/Aileal Jul 02 '19
Curious, what If the company doesnt have Reviews? Just ask for a Talk?
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u/mitchell-irvin Jul 02 '19
You can back up a request for a raise with the market rates for your type of position and experience, but the more compelling argument is merit.
If you're a go-getter, I'd also interview around, because you can probably beat the average salary you've seen by a solid margin if you negotiate a new comp package with a new employer.
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u/beiraleia Jul 02 '19
This happened to me once. I ended up getting all the pay rates of the entire staff roster. Around the same time, my team mates complained about being paid too little and I happened to find out that they were getting paid more than me.
Went directly to my boss for a pay adjustment. He couldn’t help me because the pay decisions were made in HR.
HR gave me the run around and pretty much refused to raise my pay.
Happened to meet with the CEO for my annual evaluation because EVERYONE was out and my review kept getting postponed. No matter, I was well prepared and showed him a package detailing everything I did since I came to the company and what I planned to do to benefit the company in the upcoming year.
I never mentioned what others were being paid.
Two things happened: he was shocked about the measly raise I was asking for. I mentioned that yeah, it’s really tough, especially without benefits. CEO: “You don’t have benefits?!” After I confirmed this he said he would take care of it. Got a 50% raise (I was VERY shocked by this). They also converted the team from hourly to salaries FTEs and provided benefits.
Seriously, don’t stop raising the issue and go over people’s heads if you have to. You now know what you’re worth to the company now so don’t let them pay you less. Just make sure that you prepare well in advance with everything you’ve done for the company in the past and what you plan to focus on in the coming year to benefit the company. The annual eval is a good time to bring it up because that’s when they tend to give out raises and bonuses.
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u/molequeen Jul 02 '19
I feel like this is the only reasonable, semi-human reaction in this thread. This is how it should work. There is no reason for salaries to be some top-secret, you better know all the tricks to get the most money thing. Just pay people what they are worth! Two people with the same education, experience, and background doing the same job should make roughly the same salary. This isn't scandalous. And who wouldn't feel bad knowing their coworkers make way more than them for the same work?
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u/tacos_for_algernon Jul 02 '19
In certain cultures it is taboo to discuss certain topics. Salary is a taboo subject to most Americans, you generally don't even discuss it with your closest friends. Not saying it's right or wrong, it just is.
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u/molequeen Jul 02 '19
I'm American so I totally understand that it is taboo, but I don't understand why?? I work in gov. though and all of our salaries are public. It just seems like it takes a lot of the "weirdness" out of the workplace as well as raise/promotion/money conversations
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u/Ratchetonater Jul 02 '19
It's taboo only because employers make it that way. By making it taboo, they can keep wages nice and low.
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u/heartofthemoon Jul 03 '19
Two people with the same education, experience, and background doing the same job should make roughly the same salary.
'You're far better, more efficient and harder working than person B. They do more and better work and as such get better pay'.
I'm not disagreeing with you but I am providing a state that contradicts what you've said.
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u/Ferret_Faama Jul 03 '19
Yeah exactly. I work in IT and the idea that just because you have the same qualifications you'll get paid the same doesn't reflect that some people can get far more done in the same timeframe as others.
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u/battlet0adz Jul 03 '19
I’ll come out and say it. Same title, role, and responsibilities do not equate to same value. Some people are talented, have a reputation for proficiency, and bring more to the table than just the job qualifications. Locking people into salary silos like that is damaging when it comes to knowledge workers and creative types. It’s only really relevant and fair when we are talking about standardized labor, or unskilled labor. If there is only one way to do a job, and there isn’t variability in the amount a person can get done in a timeframe, sure... equal pay. Otherwise, make your case and do so aggressively.
Also, minimum living wage standards should be set, as well as a prevailing wage for any position where any person doing job X is justified in making $Y, and more exceptional employees make more than that are reasonable approaches.
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Jul 03 '19
We Americans have actually internalized a lot of bad ideas that are bad for us but really awesome for the wealthy.
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u/A-Bone Jul 02 '19
Companies do this all the time and it makes no sense because they are going to lose a good, reliable employee that probably knows their job (unless you're a total fuckwhit..this is Reddit afterall (s/)) and they will have to spend a bunch of money to hire someone else at the higher rate, get them trained and hope they can do the job as well as you.
So annoying to see...but I think it is a law-of-averages sort of thing where not everyone will leave over money, so they'd rather run the risk of losing a few people to this sort of thing than paying everyone the new-hire rates.
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u/WinterCharm Jul 02 '19
And this is how companies lose good employees who are already trained and competent at their jobs. It's also the earliest sign that a company is going downhill... as money grubbing morons in management don't think experienced staff is important.
in 2015, Boeing fired so many of their senior engineering staff... You can see how that's turned out for them
- the 737 Max software was outsourced to a $9/ hour software sweatshop that doesn't know jack shit about aviation software... or how to make it robust...
- The amateur entry level design/engieering team at Boeing not only failed the basic concept of having TWO mission critical sensors, and making sure that they agree (with sanity checks), and having separate power for each sensor.... nope... that would make too much sense and cost money. One sensor it is!
- They also utterly failed to make sure that when the sensor failed, it would fail-neutral (where there is NO change to the airplane controls, rather than throwing the plane into a death dive) -- this wasn't implemented in hardware or software, which is a glaring oversight
- they didn't even bother testing the sensor fail light (which didn't light up)
- they didn't even change the manual, with instructions on how to disable the unit, because if they changed the manual, they'd have to bother with FAA certification and pilot training, instead of claiming the aircraft flies identically and is 'basically the same and doesn't need all that regulatory oversight'
More than 350 people died.
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u/wickedkittylitter Jul 02 '19
Do those other people have more experience, more education or more certifications than you? Those are all valid reasons why they are paid more. They may have been with the company for several years and worked their way up to those salaries, you haven't. They may also just be better negotiators than you.
The only justification for a salary increase is what the pay is for your position, your experience in your market.
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u/Sirkaill Jul 02 '19
I had to scroll really far to find this, just not enough info or background from OP to give an actual answer.
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u/thejaga Jul 02 '19
In addition to those points, were you hired to your current position or did you get promoted into it? Often times hiring salary impacts how much you make more than anything else - in which case looking for a new job is often the best course of action (I know, it's stupid)
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Jul 02 '19
I received an accidental mail with all salaries for everyone in the company
You know, you're not the first person I've heard of this happening to. And I personally had an HR person accidentally place everyone's 1040 form (pay info plus SSN!) into my personal shared drive, and then quietly beg me to delete it three days later when they realized what they'd done.
Why is this so common?!?!? As a programmer, I've never accidentally mailed our source code to a client....
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u/UnpopularCrayon Jul 02 '19
At large companies, you often have people with the same name or people with very similar names (or in the case of a shared folder, maybe similar network ids). So one letter off or selecting the recipient with the same name can result in this happening.
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u/appmapper Jul 02 '19
How is it that the underpaid person always gets the accidental email like this? Are the overpaid people smart enough to go "Holy shit, I make way more than everyone else. This must never see the light of day"?
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u/A-Bone Jul 02 '19
Nobody goes running to the Reddit mob when they find out they are inexplicably making way more than other people.
They just shutthefuck up, delete the email, smile smugly to themselves and go about their business.
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u/bitcoind3 Jul 03 '19
When I'm the boss I'm going to 'accidentally' email everyone sightly differently salary data that shows they are the highest paid - so that I can have a satisfied workforce!
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u/Gefilte_Fish Jul 02 '19
Do you know anyone who thinks they are overpaid? I don't.
People that are paid well likely had to negotiate that rate and are well aware of the market and their salary in relation to it.
But my first thought here is 'was it really an accident?'
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u/puddlejumper Jul 03 '19
I think there's just no reason for the people who receive accidental emails which show they are being paid more than their colleagues to make reddit posts :)
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u/Fedelm Jul 02 '19
I found out I was being paid less than the other person with my title and seniority. So I said "Hey, I'm being paid less than the other person with my title and seniority. Why is that?" And they said "Oh, oversight. We'll fix that." And they did.
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Jul 03 '19
It wasn’t oversight, they thought they could profit from your lack of awareness.
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u/templetons1 Jul 03 '19
I think it is fucking ridiculous that people cannot discuss their payrate at work.
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u/uniquepassword Jul 03 '19
In the US it IS NOT ILLEGAL to discuss it, just that there's a sort of feeling that it's taboo and people don't think they should..we need to get over that stigma..
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u/Zithero Jul 03 '19
Fun Fact:
Salaries are not, in any way, Personal Information.
In fact this is a myth created by employers to ensure that their employees do not discuss or share their salaries with their co-workers.
You can, at any point, discuss your salary with your co-workers. It is not illegal to do so.
Do what I did in the exact same situation: forward the e-mail out to your supervisors... with a question: "Why does X make more than myself, when we have the same job?" -- it's not your fault you got the e-mail.
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u/HanEyeAm Jul 02 '19
If you work for a government or big company in the US, report this to you supervisor, asap, with documentation (eg, report it as an email). This may be considered an information security breach and they're very well maybe a policy that makes it an offense for not reporting. Good luck with the salary aspect- others are offering good advice, there.
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u/apetnameddingbat Jul 02 '19
Anyone with a national security billing won't be on there. Try to look up DoD employees, a bunch are not listed.
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u/pepperfarmsremebers Jul 02 '19
There are a lot that are exempt lol. In FL, agencies that have anything to do with law enforcement are exempt.
And some Federal DOD employees are exempt as well
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u/MeltdownTO Jul 02 '19
This is why you should always discuss salaries with your co-workers and industry peers. Whomever started the notion that discussing pay is rude or unprofessional was probably a business owner.
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u/kperkins1982 Jul 03 '19
I worked with a guy that dressed fairly casually, every once in a while he'd ask off for a few hours in the morning and then show up in a full on suit.
He'd say he just felt like dressing nice for the day but we all knew he had an interview.
Years later I found out this was all fake and he'd do it a week or so before asking for a raise lol
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u/ballzwette Jul 02 '19
Find a new job. They are perfectly comfortable shitting on you. Why would you stay?
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u/allholy1 Jul 02 '19
I agree with this. Start looking for other jobs and you'll make more money. It feels hard to leave a job, but you might find something a lot better.
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u/limitless__ Jul 02 '19
Knowledge is power. You now know that the company CAN pay you more. So in any negotiation if they say "we cannot afford to" you know they are lying and can make an informed decision. If you want a raise you need to set up a meeting and approach them with evidence that you deserve more money based on your experience, job performance, responsibilities etc. The knowledge you have changes nothing in the negotiation from their perspective, only yours.
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u/noisy_goose Jul 02 '19
YES! This information is very powerful, but only from a negotiation perspective.
OP knows all the cards their company is holding.
AND from a market rate perspective could be great info for a future job search.
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u/hulashakes Jul 03 '19
Email the list to the entire company from an anonymous account. Then, raise hell about the salary. TeamChaos.
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Jul 03 '19
Forward it to everyone else in the company.
Then it will be fair. You can't be the only one who knows what everyone makes now can you?
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u/InteriorAttack Jul 02 '19
ask for a raise or find a new job. demonstrate why you deserve it.
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Jul 03 '19
FORWARD ALL!! LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!!
It's people in power who say "it's impolite to talk about money" so the can stay in power.
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u/fuzzyToeBeanz Jul 02 '19
Just because they do the same work doesn't mean you're equal. They could easily have some more experience, certs etc to bring to the table.
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u/fisher571 Jul 02 '19
I feel like every single day there are a few of these posts. Negotiate and research before accepting any position. You are getting paid less because you bit the hook before seeing if the hook was dangerous.
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u/Red8Rain Jul 02 '19
@ my last job, I was asked to help troubleshoot a slow running query. Figure it would be pretty simple with no confidential data. Little did I know that the query contain EVERYONE'S salary, past and present, their home address and their SSN. The only record I remember was a person making 100k a month!!!!! How did I know this was 100k a month? because I filtered for my record and it showed my monthly salary. I told the manager that this shit should be encrypted. They said it is encrypt when it is sent to another server. So I asked to see that data and guess what! They hashed the SSN alright BUT also left the unhashed SSN in the next phcking column!!!!
The only thing I can do from my side was to password protect all the backups and enabled transparent data encryption. Also I did not look at anyone else's salary besides mine and that first record.
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u/erbush1988 Jul 02 '19
How long have you been working for this company?
Did you negotiate your salary when the offer was made?
If you have been there significantly less time than other employees in the same position as yourself, you may be underpaid partially because of that.
If you didn't negotiate your starting salary as well as other did, you may also be underpaid because of that.
Those said, during your next review, ask for a raise based on quantifiable skills and experience.
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