r/personalfinance • u/ekampp • Jul 02 '19

I received an accidental mail with all salaries for everyone in the company Employment

Hey, first time posting here. Hope this post will be ok.

This is problematic in regards to personal information discretion, but my issue is:

I realized I'm being significantly underpaid in comparison to others who do the same work as me.

I feel frustrated and upset about that fact. Not sure how to approach from here.

How would you approach the situation?

EDIT 1: Thanks for all the answers. There are many good ones in-between!

There are also a few that clearly want to see the world burn 😅

I had never expected this many replies, so please don't hold it against me for not answering each one of you.

RESULT:

First off. Again, thank you to all of you, who pitched in with your personal experiences, hardships, concerns, and advice. I have read through most of all ~2000 of them 😅

I have chosen to simply delete and bury the faulty email, and I will add a bit about being careful to not forward email-chains in our security newsletter this month instead. This way it will benefit everyone in the company to be wary of forwarding email-chains. The WHOLE chain will be forwarded.

I had a sit-down with the boss-man, and he agreed to give me a raise, and a promotion.

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u/wildmaiden Jul 02 '19

This is good advice. But it only works if you NEVER mention the email! You can imply that you saw it by scheduling a discussion quickly, but don't use it as direct leverage, that is a bad idea.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19 edited Jul 02 '19

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u/unknowntroubleVI Jul 02 '19

What happens if you mention it? He didn’t do anything wrong by accidentally receiving it right?

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

That would make it more blackmail-y and less of a discussion about how the raise is deserved. You want the person across the table to end up on your side.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19 edited Jul 08 '20

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u/SuperRob Jul 03 '19 edited Jul 03 '19

You can backdoor the email into the conversation by talking about “market rate for positions in this area.” They can’t deny what the market rate is when they flat out sent you data on it. But again, you don’t draw attention to the email directly.

(Edit: What’s up with downvoting people you disagree with? Never mind my 20+ years of experience negotiating salaries, as well as having been in this exact situation.)

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '19 edited Jul 09 '20

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u/SuperRob Jul 03 '19

Doesn’t matter how you phrase it, the moment you bring up that you saw it, you’ve painted them into a corner, and no one responds well to that. Arguably, tiptoeing around it makes it come off worse.

Ultimately, you’re entering into a salary negotiation. And if you’re going to do that, and most importantly, keep your job at the end of it ... you don’t put them in the position to say, “No, and as a matter of fact, you can clean out your desk.”

So do the same thing you’d do in any salary negotiation. Lead with your strengths, show your accomplishments, and then bring up that the market rate for the position is x, and that you’re being underpaid. They can’t deny that’s the case, because they already know you saw it. And since you’ve already led with what you’ve accomplished, they can’t use underperformance as the reason, either.

It cannot be about the content of that email. The moment you make it about that, you lose. I’ve seen this before, and it never ends well. They can always show you the door.

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u/calabazadelamuerte Jul 03 '19

I know nothing about OP and cannot attest to their skill so I don't want this to come across as a knock at them. But I feel like this is very important to consider before entering into negotiations.

There are several people who work for me in similar roles with a decent variance in salary. Without a doubt there is a fairly level playing field of accomplishment amongst them. However, in all examples that come to mind, the person making less also has several big opportunities in their role that the higher paid person does not.

If OP schedules a meeting to discuss salary it is critical for a successful outcome they they are open to feedback. I would strongly suggest being candid about feeling underpaid based on the market and list several accomplishments that would justify an adjustment. Then I would ask if there are any roadblocks with my performance that I am not aware of or have not put enough focus on to have already gotten a merit increase. Even if the meeting doesn't result in an immediate raise, it's a great way to get specific direction to achieve whatever the company may feel is needed to get the merit increase.

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u/tomster2300 Jul 03 '19

Can you elaborate on how the lower paid employees have several opportunities in their role?

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u/calabazadelamuerte Jul 03 '19

It would be improper to discuss specifics for anyone who works for me, even anonymously on the internet. But I can give you an example in the context of fictional employees.

Let’s say that Alan and Jeff both work in IT. Their technical skill is the same and they both have a reputation for stellar work. Time with the company is the same. The job is not client facing.

Alan is friendly to everyone and is happy to help a client understand a complex repair issue if the client support team needs assistance. Alan is convinced that engaging with clients and helping them understand what they are paying for is crucial to success. His coworkers feel encouraged and inspired by the way he performs his job and interacts with the team.

Jeff does not like to be interrupted when working on a repair, and is often rude or short with coworkers when it happens. He wants client support to be able to explain to the client why their servers are down so that he can concentrate on getting it fixed.

During annual reviews, Alan has excellent results. Clients report a higher level of satisfaction when Alan works on a project for them. They understand what was done and why. Several clients have referred others to the company based on their satisfaction with the work Alan has completed for them. The referrals result in two new contracts for Alan’s company. His is given a 6% merit increase for going above expectations and helping the company stay profitable.

Jeff is also recognized for the technical work he does. He is consistent and efficient at performing the duties of his role. But his reputation for being difficult to work with means that his manager has to be strategic with the clients that Jeff is assigned to. Jeff is awarded a 3% merit increase.

Add similar results for 2-3 years and you end up with a large pay difference for the same role. Both people in the example met the requirements of their job description.

When you remove HR nightmares like nepotism or sexism, most disparities in pay stem from the difference between the people who do their job and those who go above and beyond what is asked for their job consistently. A person who takes on more will tend to get paid more. The difficult part is the employee making less may not know all the extras their peer/peers are doing to justify higher pay unless they ask.

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u/SuperRob Jul 03 '19

If you’re really savvy, you can try to work that feedback into a stated goal. “So, what I’m hearing is that if I can improve x, y, and z, you could justify paying me 15% more. Let’s work on a way to measure these factors, set a goal, and evaluate in six months.” Now you know exactly what to work towards, and better yet, have a presumptive yes on that raise ...

... so long as something doesn’t get screwed up along the way, like company performance falling or something.

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u/calabazadelamuerte Jul 03 '19

Exactly!

I’ve seen it go both ways though. Interactions very similar to what you describe have worked out very favorably for the person asking.

But I’ve also had people demand more because they “deserve it” and be completely unwilling to work on anything that is asked. The most frustrating part is it is almost always a person with huge potential that can’t seem to get out of their own way. Because it is usually minor performance issues or metrics/goals that they just refuse to address .

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u/UncommonSenseApplier Jul 03 '19 edited Jul 03 '19

How does one gain 20 years experience of negotiating salaries? That kinda implies you have never stopped... How have you had time to do actual work? Or is this like saying you have 20 years of experience voting for presidents, when it’s actually closer to 20 mins of 5 days (1 hour 40 mins)?

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '19

If I say I have 10 years experience in engineer roles, I’m not adding up all the hours I’ve ever worked.

In your example, ‘20 years experience in voting for presidents’ is a better way to put it because anyone reasonable will make an assumption that you mean you have voted in every election over the past 20 years. In what world would you tell someone you have 1 hour 40 mins of voting experience?

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u/nbgrout Jul 03 '19

FixYoSubjunctive is right...he/she didn't say it IS blackmail, just that it is blackmail adjacent and might be perceived as blackmail by the employer even though you are correct that it probably wouldn't be under the law. If you are asking your employer for a raise, you want them to view you as someone they want to keep around; they likely wouldn't want to keep around someone that coerces them using the accidental email as leverage.

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u/pirateninjamonkey Jul 03 '19

Unless you imply that, no one is going to think you are blackmailing them.

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u/nbgrout Jul 03 '19

You're probably right, mentioning that you saw you were underpaid in the email without suggesting that you are planning to share that information with others might be ok and beneficial to the negotiation because they'd know that you know their reservation price.

However I think there is a big risk that that nuanced message doesn't come across the right way. Even if it does, you would be putting them in an uncomfortable/threatened position whereas if you don't mention it and let them connect the dots that you have this email/info, they might view your discretion (the fact that you didn't expressly mention the email) positively and be more inclined to keep you around by bumping your pay.

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u/tamingjackie Jul 03 '19

Also salaries shouldn't be a secret. A good company is transparent. By keeping salaries secret, the company literally gets away with discriminating by paying others less for the same job/duties/experience.

Pay secrecy is often illegal. The person that accidentally sent this to the OP can't be punished. Nor can the OP be punished for knowing about it and using it in negotiations.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '19

It's not strictly illegal in every cass. Not publishing salaries because you don't want employees talking about it? Fine. Forbidding employees from discussing their salaries with each other? Illegal.

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u/tamingjackie Jul 03 '19

Certainly. There's definitely a reason too often rooted in discrimination as to why companies don't publish salaries though. And, you're right, pay secrecy cannot be a policy. Written, verbal or implied.

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u/tuckedfexas Jul 03 '19

It’s not illegal, but it’s definitely information that is somewhat private and should be up to each person how they want to or if they want disclose it to other coworkers. I completely agree that it would be in every workers interest to be more open about their salaries, but we tie too much of our self worth to money

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u/AndrewIsOnline Jul 03 '19

Do you not understand tact?

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u/Synkope1 Jul 03 '19

That is exactly what companies rely on to get everyone to be quiet about what they're paid. Pretending like it's secret info only ever helps the employer. Tact would be they employer being transparent about salaries. Tact would be paying your employees fairly.

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u/BigStrongCiderGuy Jul 03 '19

I agree. It’s illegal to prevent employees from discussing salary. Companies obviously don’t want to reveal salaries/allow people to discuss salaries solely because companies want to pay people less. Openly using this knowledge as grounds to increase salary should be perfectly fine, although of course the company won’t like it.

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u/Defoler Jul 03 '19

Even mentioning the email can imply “I might bring it up to other employees and create a total mayhem in the office”.
not mentioning it means “I’m going to keep my mouth shut, but we both know I need a salary fix, and I expect you to do it”.

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u/Medraut_Orthon Jul 02 '19

People don't understand a lot on this site. Especially lately.

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u/Ralliartimus Jul 02 '19

I am sure it is because some of us have been 18 longer than others.

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u/BeardedGingerWonder Jul 03 '19

In the grand scheme of things 365 days probably doesn't bring about a huge shift in understanding for most people.

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u/Ralliartimus Jul 03 '19

How about 11688 days?

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u/BeardedGingerWonder Jul 03 '19

It's a fine number of days

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u/1Deerintheheadlights Jul 03 '19

Because there are many reasons others can be making more - experience, education, etc. Also job offer timing - availability of candidates.

Don’t get into s comparison argument as that does not work. To justify a raise explain why you are worth more. Let the salary note sit in your back pocket and be the elephant in the room.

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u/Boobitybipitty Jul 03 '19

Long/short - it’s not classy. When taking advantage of someone because of their fuck up, it’s not classy to call out their fuck up.

If you call out that ‘this is why’, you’re suggesting that because of their fuck up you’re taking advantage, and the company is now paying more because of that which would be a further fuck up on their behalf - you never mention, and when you get a raise a few weeks later that is perfectly within reason, no one bats an eyelid.

It’s equivalent to the deniability part of a quid pro quo. Nothing dodge can be proven, but is apparent to anyone who can see the full picture.

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u/Frankandthatsit Jul 03 '19

What???? Where is the blackmail?

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u/Johnsoner889 Jul 03 '19

Fair, but what about how to respond to the obvious accusation of "oh, so you saw the email and now you want a raise"?

If I were HR (or whoever was deciding salaries), I feel like I would have a reason why OP is underpaid (even if it was a bullshit reason) ready to go in this discussion especially since they know OP saw the email.

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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '19

My friend had this exact same scenario happen to him. He told his manager he saw the email and wanted just compensation. He ended up getting the raise. Clearly, the email is all the evidence anyone needs that he was being underpaid.

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u/GGATHELMIL Jul 02 '19

They know they're in some shit. Hr is sitting there going "what are they gonna do" "what are we gonna have to compensate for" and immediately go towards worse case scenario.

You come in nice and calm saying that you realized that you're worth more and throw a number out and it's immensely better than their worst case scenarios. They gladly accept and think they won.

I learned this tactic at a young age with my parents. You want that ice cream after dinner but know they're gonna say no? Go big. Tell Mom you want her to bake fresh brownies from scratch. When she says no and you counter with just a quick simple popsicle she will be more likely to accept thinking she "won".

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u/kelseyD20 Jul 03 '19

Thanks for helping me realize that my kids do this to me. I’ll definitely be on the lookout for this kind of malicious swindling in the future.

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u/starverer Jul 03 '19

I hope, as a good parent, you'll encourage it.

Or, at least play along long enough to totally cozen them before you finally drop the hammer.

Both of those work, I think.

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u/showraniy Jul 03 '19

Not saying you're wrong, because that's exactly how I think of negotiations, but the one time I tried that so far in my short career, the unprofessional HR chick on the other end immediately got an attitude about how the position "wasn't worth that."

It's an okay job otherwise, but my whole hiring process was the biggest dent they could've ever put in my longterm stay.

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u/loonygecko Jul 03 '19

My brother and sister in law were the biggest suckers for this. Their kid would also cry as part of the leverage if they said no and then they'd cave. Yeah my brother always thought he was being soooo strict if he managed to whittle down the demands at all before caving. Hopefully you did not turn out as whiny and spoiled as my niece. ;-P

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u/enragedparzival Jul 03 '19

In this scenario, you get the popsicle, which is better than nothing. So you feel like you won.

But at the end of the day your mom is still baking brownies for your siblings. You might start to feel underpaid before you even get to enjoy the popsicle.

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u/NoMenLikeMe Jul 03 '19

Eh, you gotta be careful with and not overplay your hand. I get students that try to do this, and all it does is annoy me. It’s essentially me listening to them bargaining with themselves, while I just keep saying no.

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u/GGATHELMIL Jul 03 '19

little bit different when it comes to education. best thing you can do is negotiate an extension. and even then unless someone died its unlikely any teacher would budge.

i had a family death and the teacher still didnt budge. their argument was i had at least 10 hours in a car round trip to do work and research. and 5 days with no distractions since i was out of town to finish my project. i barely got them to not take off points for it being late solely because i came home 2 days after it was due, and even then it wasn't until i provided an obituary.

mind you i couldnt do any research due to where we were staying had no internet and this was a time before smartphones. Couldve gone to the library but it was 10 miles away and required a parent to take me. mind you my grandfather had died and there were 2 other siblings they had to take care of.

what kills me about this experience was that all my highschool teachers did this shit saying "youre going to get even less lenience in college" fuck i went to college and as long as the reason was semi reasonable the professor gave you extra time.

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u/niktak11 Jul 02 '19

He needs to make the blackmail less blackmaily

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19 edited Mar 02 '20

[deleted]

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u/elus Jul 02 '19

This is the lie that people are fed to put up with lower wages. In any other profession, pure transparency of salaries is used properly by employees to negotiate in good faith an appropriate wage for their position. Employers count on information asymmetry to keep employees from asking for a proper wage. The value of an individual contributor will not vary much in a way that most managers can justify large variances in pay between different employees.

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u/Tammytalkstoomuch Jul 03 '19

Definitely happened to us. My husband was senior to the other employees in his area, had extra responsibilities and topped the stats. He repeatedly asked for a raise and was told there was no money for one, he was already making way more than the market average etc etc. A lady who had not worked in the industry before was hired, and got fired 3 months in for a positive drug test. They put her final pay slip on his desk instead of hers - they had hired her on a salary that was several thousand dollars higher than what my husband was getting. He left the job, no second chances for that sort of treatment. Knowing that they valued him after 7 years less than a new hire made it clear he was never going to advance. We're all way happier.

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u/artemi7 Jul 03 '19

That's how McDonald's treated their managers. You just rack up whatever raises you get, but when someone new get hired into the position, they get a starting base that's adjusted for inflation that is likely higher then yours.

So it's like $10 +3% +3% +3% or whatever the numbers were, while a new person will just come on at $14. Then when you they get their raise, it'll be the same % as yours, but their base is higher, so...

We had multiple, including myself, leave over this. One lady quit and got herself rehired just to get the new base, because they weren't allowed to just bump her into the higher slot cause she she'd been there too long (like 10+ years). So her hire date reset but now she's making more; she essentially had to choose between seniority or higher pay.

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u/elus Jul 03 '19

Sounds like they hated your husband sorry. Congratulations on him for finding an opportunity that values him appropriately

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u/Tammytalkstoomuch Jul 03 '19

I dont think it was personal, just that there's a certain type of workplace that does exactly what the original commenter said - they use the fact that no one talks about wages against employees, as an excuse to pay them as little as possible. Better to get out, because you can't talk someone into valuing their people.

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u/calmbill Jul 02 '19

Certainly not any other profession. I've never had a job as an adult with salary transparency. Though, from salary surveys and job offers I've received, I have a pretty good understanding of my value in the job market.

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u/elus Jul 02 '19

Talk to law interns. Those kids are mercenary.

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u/SultanOilMoney Jul 03 '19

Why talk to law interns?

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u/katarh Jul 03 '19

Because I'm a state government employee, all our wages are publicly available information.

I know I'm criminally underpaid for my profession and my degree compared to the corporate rate, but I've got a lot of intangibles and one of the best benefit packages available. Sure, I could make twice as much out in the private sector, but I'd likely have a 45-60+ minute commute in exchange, and I'm not willing to sacrifice my time when I'm paid enough where I am.

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u/Mookiepoo22 Jul 02 '19

Disagree completely on the point about no significant variance in value of employee. I have employees that are 2 to 3 times more productive than others. Some people are much better than the rest at their job.

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u/dasitmanes Jul 02 '19

Let me guess, they don't make 2 to 3 times as much salary than others..

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u/AsteriskCGY Jul 02 '19

Well then can you successfully argue that to their face? It's one thing to have pay variance based on metrics of productivity, but to try and trick them to hold to a lower salary is a completely different issue.

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u/Thecklos Jul 02 '19

And do you pay those more valuable employees 2 to 3 times the others? If so, then you could argue this in a 2agr discussion properly. My guess is at least 1 of those way more valuable employees actually makes less than some of the crap ones.

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u/pirateninjamonkey Jul 02 '19

Then they should have a different position title, and perhaps some people they train to become productive like them.

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u/loonygecko Jul 03 '19

It's not always that simple, sometimes they are good at what they do but either do not want or would not be as good at another job for instance. Salespeople and repair people come to mind, if they are on commission, that helps compensate but some places do not want to have commission because it encourages lying by the sales people or quickie not good fixes by repair people. Also IME, a lot of productivity is inborn talent, you can't train people to become smarter or have a much better attitude. Yes they can improve their skill set but they will hit a ceiling of improvement that will be lower than a more talented person and they will also improve slower. That's why talented people are so valuable, you can't just train another one so easily.

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u/elus Jul 02 '19

Yes but most managers can't tell.

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u/KhamsinFFBE Jul 03 '19

The value of an individual contributor will not vary much in a way that most managers can justify large variances in pay between different employees.

There can be a huge difference in employee value to the company, even in the same position. Your experience, personal relationships with clients, trust the management has in you to make the best decisions for the company and to keep things going the way they would, etc. all factor into it.

Two doctors, two attorneys, two engineers, two actuaries, two of pretty much anybody may have wildly different value even if their business card says the same thing.

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u/Devinology Jul 03 '19 edited Jul 03 '19

Value should be earned though. Hiring someone new at a higher pay than a top performing long time employee is just ludicrous. Regardless of what they say on their resume or in an interview, they aren't tested. This implies that either they are making a terrible gamble on a new hire they think has potential, which is dumb, or they are underpaying a tried and tested staff that is clearly valuable enough to keep around. New hires should always start at the same pay, and then compensation can very based on performance after that. And it should really only vary so much, unless it's a job about directly bringing in money like in sales.

It's also not smart to essentially punish the lower performing employees, as they won't be motivated to improve. The possibility of higher payout generally isn't enough to motivate people to do more, according to psychological studies. The highest paid people are the ones that pushed for it and did whatever it took to get paid more, but aren't generally the most productive or "good" employees. They're good at playing the game, not at their jobs. I mean I guess in fields like finance that's literally the same thing, but that's a whole other topic.

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u/elus Jul 03 '19

Actually those professions you listed have pretty narrow bands of remuneration given that they have equal education. There definitely can be huge value differences between employees but your manager doesn't really notice most of the time

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

He never said his salary was not appropriate.

He said his salary was lower than those around him.

There’s a whole lot of unknown there.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

I agree. If your efficiency and performance is bad enough to warrant a 20% pay difference or something significant, the. You aren’t really performing your job the what should be considered a standard and typically would be brought up or lead to termination.

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u/DanGDangerous Jul 02 '19 edited Jul 02 '19

Makes you look like a ten year old.

If you bring up an issue like this tactfully and rationally, it actually looks better on you since you're basically standing up for yourself.

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u/Erpderp32 Jul 03 '19

"You're being let go. No reason specifically. Good luck with proving anything in an at will state"

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u/cash_flash Jul 03 '19

"In life we never get what we deserve but what we have the leverage to negotiate."

Jalen Rose

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u/centran Jul 03 '19

Someone else getting more money is never enough of a reason.

Sometimes it is though. However you have to phrase it correctly and saying (as you said) "but this person is making more" is not the right way.

You go in like the top commenter said and ask for a "market rate adjustment". Speak HR terms. That is basically saying this person makes more then me but because the market value for the position has changed.

Most HR will never give out "raises". Something has to change to deserve a "raise". That can be a market rate adjustment. That can be you going above and beyond your job which is a merit based increase. It could be a cost of living increase due to national inflation percentages. It could be a promotion or added responsibilities with a title change. Some companies may give yearly bonus based on performance or projects and they may use a potential bonus increase for next year at review time as your "raise".

This isn't just coming from HR either. They play thise stupid games because for accounting and budgeting purposes that money comes from different "buckets". I've stated it's a game several times because you have to know these silly rules to play and "score".

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u/Baron-of-bad-news Jul 03 '19

It's nothing to do with fairness. How much they pay is the intersection of how much they need the job done and how much you need this job. Supply and demand. What he has discovered is that the demand for him is considerably higher than previously believed.

It's never "my colleague makes 2x what I do for the same work and I'm jealous". It's "my employer values the work I do at 2x what they're paying me and is just pocketing the difference".

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u/danesanzenbacher Jul 03 '19

This is the first and best advice I was ever told by my current manager. It is 100% true.

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u/unidan_was_right Jul 02 '19

Someone else getting more money is never enough of a reason.

If the job is equivalent, it is.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '19

"But he makes more than me! It's not fair"

Obviously he shouldn't say that, but he would absolutely be on good ground to say something to the effect of "You're paying me below market wages." And, in fact, someone getting more is enough of a reason, again, market rates matter.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/highfastball Jul 02 '19

Experience? Aptitude? Competence? There are a LOT of reasons...

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u/Partyslayer Jul 02 '19

Get under my desk and I'll show you. Bring a lunch.

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u/Rabiesalad Jul 02 '19

I agree with you in general, but "doing the same job" doesn't mean it's done as well, or that loyalty and interest in the growth of the company is equal, etc.

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u/ShouldaLooked Jul 03 '19

Bullshit. This moralistic horseshit is a tool that completely amoral organizations use to gaslight people into accepting less than they’re worth. I imagine this used to work. It doesn’t anymore. Everyone knows that keeping compensation secret benefits only the employer.

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u/mermaid_superstar Jul 02 '19

No, but reading it is a different matter.

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u/flipht Jul 02 '19

Asking for more money "because X makes Y” will always fail. Even if they give it to you, it's going to be for long enough that they can find a replacement. They will (correctly) say that you don't know all the factors that go into salary decisions such as education, previous experience, or the number of bodies that person knows how to dig up.

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u/SUCK_MY_DICTIONARY Jul 02 '19

I heard a tale of a guy at my company who was fired for this, precisely. I don't know how they approached it legally but he got boofed.

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u/BirdDogFunk Jul 02 '19

Boofed, eh? Where do you work exactly and how do I get on board?

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u/Oil_slick941611 Jul 03 '19

reading confidential material that was sent to you in error does not mean you can still ethically read it, that is grounds for termination still. especially if you know better, and most professionals know better.

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u/TheMacMan Jul 02 '19

I'd be EXTREMELY careful even hinting that you saw the email contents. Just because you received the email by mistake doesn't mean you had the right to open an attached file and could potentially be terminated for such (just as having access to a server drive doesn't give you the right to go exploring on that drive).

To be safe, I wouldn't even imply or hint that you viewed the actual contents of the email.

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u/Dr_thri11 Jul 02 '19

Thats ridiculous. Op doesn't know what it is before openjng as far as he knows its a legit email from a manager with relevant information. Now the person who accidentally sent it could be in some deep shit.

Which is why everyone is suggesting that op could just play nice and probably get what they want as long as they don't cross the line by trying to blackmail their employer.

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u/deadguydrew Jul 02 '19

Because 49 out of 50 states in the US are "At Will" which means that as long as you aren't fired for a protected class, you can be fired for anything.

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u/Dr_thri11 Jul 02 '19

The manager who sent this out actually broke the law. It would beyond dumb to double down by firing someone for viewing an email they were sent. I know reddit likes to get their pitchforks out over at will, but unless op does something really dumb like try to blackmail their employer their job isn't in danger.

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u/ebol4anthr4x Jul 02 '19

That is not against the law.

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u/Iustis Jul 02 '19

I don't think it's illegal to disclose salaries.

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u/kwillich Jul 02 '19

If you are in the US, then no its not illegal for employees to discuss salaries. That's a Title VII right that employers cannot take away.

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u/mrevergood Jul 02 '19

You can’t be fired for disclosing your own.

But disclosing someone else’s, or obtaining their salary information through unscrupulous or accidental means isn’t great and can get you fired.

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u/Iustis Jul 02 '19

Fired? Absolutely. Illegal? That's what I'm questioning

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u/mrevergood Jul 02 '19

I’m not sure if it’s explicitly illegal, but they definitely wouldn’t have any protection through the law if they shared someone else’s salary.

Now OP isn’t the one at fault here-the manager/accountant/person who sent them this information is.

OP has this information but doesn’t really have anything they can do with it where they legally are protected. They can’t really be punished for having accidentally acquired it like this, but can’t use it as leverage for a pay increase, or share this information with anyone else.

Individuals have to share their pay, or the company has to post everyone’s salaries for everyone to see.

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u/Meetchel Jul 02 '19

It’s not illegal. But yes you can be fired for nearly anything.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

Yeah this mew mew’ing about OP breaking rules is stupid. One person mishandled sensitive information, and it ain’t OP.

That said - I wouldn’t confirm receipt of the e-mail either. I’d ask for a meeting to discuss performance and a salary bump. Take the time to research the other people you believe are in your same level and paid better than you are. Figure out how long they’ve been there, their educational background, certifications, work experience in the role or industry. Make sure these are apples to apples comps.

If you do all that and still feel underpaid relative to others, and they refuse to raise your salary, I might consider filing a complaint with your local EEO office. At the very least consult with an employment lawyer in your area that knows your industry.

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u/deadguydrew Jul 02 '19

I'm not sure how the manager broke the law. Sure the company can terminate him for the mistake but nothing he did is illegal unless there was personally identifiable information (SSN, medical information, etc) and even then I'm not sure if that is a crime.

Edit: Also at will employment is bad for the super majority of people. I'm not willing to back off on that stance. It is explicitly a way for companies to abuse employees.

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u/exiestjw Jul 02 '19

Op doesn't know what it is before openjng as far as he knows its a legit email from a manager with relevant information.

You can't say this without seeing the email. The contents of the email may make it apparent that theres no "accidentally" opening the email, at least not in a manner that a superior is going to accept as an excuse.

Computer laws and regulations are crazy. I know a guy that got prosecuted for computer crimes for showing his friends that if they all hit refresh on his high school's website a few times it would crash it.

You're right that its ridiculous. But that doesn't matter.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

Exactly.

I get an email at work. Then I get a phone call, at least one text message, and an actual conversation all regarding one single email.

So yeah, I read every email sent to my work email address

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u/nocomment_95 Jul 02 '19

It depends. If I receive an email that has in the text.

Dear (not me), Attached are payroll numbers

From (someone)

I know the ema isn't supposed to be mine. At that point I have no right to see he attachment.

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u/TrustAvidity Jul 02 '19

You have the right to view any communication sent to you. There is no legal merit to the text companies add to their emails saying "this is confidential and intended only for..." blah blah blah because it implies you agreed to a contract by opening the email which you can't do because you weren't aware of it prior to opening it. This was proven in court when a phone company lost in court after trying to say consumers agreed to the terms included inside the box by opening it. Not to mention all of the journalism that has legally been released based on information incorrectly being made available.

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u/NamelessTacoShop Jul 02 '19

What you said is all fine if they had emailed it outside the company. They can't sue you and the police can't charge you with a crime. But this was sent to an employee, you can absolutely be fired over this. "I read something I wasn't supposed to" is not a protected class.

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u/nocomment_95 Jul 02 '19

You most certainly do not have any such right. You may have a case that the plainly unavoidable text prior to the warning is fair game, but not the attachment. Opening an email is fine up until a reasonable person would realise it isn't for them. At that point further reading isn't a good idea. Also there is no such thing as a right here. We aren't dealing with the government.

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u/TrustAvidity Jul 02 '19

It being a good idea or not is completely unrelated to it being legal or not. It's a matter of if you're breaking any letter of the law by opening a communication sent to you. They may ask you not to or perhaps even take disciplinary action against you as an employer, but again, that's an entirely different matter than whether it breaks an actual law or not.

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u/nocomment_95 Jul 02 '19

The OP here isn't worried about the law here so much as he is worried about being fired. Assuming he is on an at will state good idea is all that matters here.

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u/PrestigiousTomato8 Jul 02 '19

Lol...what law say you can't view an email sent to you? Unless they have a policy that is covered in training/ sent to all employees, that says reading inadvertantly mistargeted emails is a fireable offense, then they most certainly can read it.

Source...worked in IT for multiple Fortune 100 companies in Exchange support and engineering roles as well as in IT governance for 20 plus years. And have never seen nor heard of any such policy.

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u/Sleete Jul 02 '19 edited Jul 02 '19

If you have worked for multiple fortune 100 companies, then surely you are aware most such companies have policies prohibiting accessing information you do not need for your job, even if it is available to you. Opening the attachment would easily fall under such a policy.

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u/nocomment_95 Jul 02 '19

Exactly. I am not talking law but more like what is likely to get you fired. The plain text may be excusable but accessing the attachment isn't. At the very least not pretending to not have seen the attachment is a fireable offense because I no longer trust you to not be an idiot/you could wreak havoc on my business.

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u/hughperman Jul 02 '19

Sure but breaking company policy isn't against the law

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19 edited Jun 30 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/nocomment_95 Jul 02 '19

Legal problem? No. Fired yes. The OP seems more concerned about how to handle things internally with the company.

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u/innocuous_gorilla Jul 02 '19

just as having access to a server drive doesn't give you the right to go exploring on that drive

Is this true or is this something that would be explicitly stated in my contract? because I have certainly done this but haven't used it in any way.

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u/Roadsoda350 Jul 02 '19

No.

This is not true at all. If you've been given access to a drive and you go clicking around and find something you weren't supposed to see, it's the bonehead who put it there, or the bonehead who gave you access who is at fault.

However, if you stumble across sensitive data, it's probably best to just disclose to either the person the data belongs to, or better yet IT, that you have sensitive data accessible where it shouldn't be.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/MPeti1 Jul 03 '19

But didn't the company have CCTV installed?

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/loonygecko Jul 03 '19

Yep, a lot of things are done because someone ones to protect their own butt, not because the thing was illegal or even bad for the company as a whole.

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u/zecknaal Jul 02 '19

In the large sense it's the fault of bad policy that allowed the security hole, but that doesn't mean OP didn't still do something wrong. No reasonable person would assume that he honestly thought he needed this data and he took the time to look up his coworkers' pay, which probably wasn't on page 1 of the company payroll. That moves this from being an accident to improperly using information that was improperly sent to him.

For the record, I'd do the exact same thing and I don't know anybody who wouldn't! It's also a much bigger issue that sensitive data is being broadcast in such a poor and unsecured medium. I just think we should be honest about what happened.

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u/Carthoris Jul 02 '19

You are incorrect for reasons I have stated elsewhere in this thread. I guarantee you any business large enough to have a legal department has in it's policy manual a clause that will allow them to fire you for accessing documents you don't have a business purpose for accessing.

Yes, data should be secured. Yes, least privilege is the correct method of protecting your data. If you by an oversight gain access to HR's file share and start snooping around in cases the thought that someone else screwed up at least as bad as you can be a cold comfort to you when your unemployment claim is denied because you were fired with cause.

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u/Lord_Moody Jul 02 '19

nah you're misunderstanding him

he's saying they can't press anything LEGALLY against you, not that they can't can you (which is explicitly legal for literally any reason barring protected classes in 49/50 states)

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u/Carthoris Jul 02 '19

I mean he doesn't say anything about the legality of it. Also it matters a bit in that even in Texas (at will/right to work) you qualify for unemployment if you aren't fired for cause. Snooping around company data would definitely get your claim denied.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

I am sure there is nothing in their contract saying that they should not open emails

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u/WunWegWunDarWun_ Jul 02 '19

Honestly, I don’t think this is fair. It’s the companies responsibility to hide information they don’t want everyone to see. Exploring on the share drive should be perfectly fine. If they didn’t want you to see it, why is it accessible?

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

I think it depends on what expectations were set when the access was given. I would assume that it's okay to access anything that I'm given access to unless I was instructed otherwise. But they have every right to give access to a drive and say "we're giving you access so that you can use folder X, all others are off limits."

That said I do agree that it's generally good practice to not give employees access to stuff that they don't want them to access. However, what you need to access can be situational.

For example, I work for an insurance company and have access to view any customer's policy but I'm expected not to view any policy unless I have a business need to do so. In theory, on any given day the need could arise for me to view any given policy, but I'm expected to not just look at Famous Person's policy because I'm curious what cars they drive or Neighbor's policy because I wonder how old they are.

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u/WunWegWunDarWun_ Jul 02 '19

Honestly that’s a little different. I work in healthcare and can access anyone’s records but government and corporate policies dictate u cannot look at any record without a business reason.

But share point access isn’t treated the same. Most companies lock down sensitive corporate information and although I believe it happens, I don’t think it’s common to fire someone who accessed those files. If you’re specifically told not to, That’s one thing. But most companies wouldn’t have such an obvious liability.

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u/snark_attak Jul 02 '19

Exploring on the share drive should be perfectly fine

Up to a point, sure. But if you come across a folder named "personnelFiles" or is somehow otherwise indicative of private data that you are (or should be) well aware that you should not be looking at, it's on you if you open files or folders when you get to that point.

Whether it is accessible due to bad policy, circumstance (sysadmins often can access any shares or files for technical reasons that don't give them a right to examine the information therein) or laziness doesn't mean you have a right to view the information.

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u/avo_cado Jul 02 '19

It's a federal crime to retaliate against someone for talking about their salary

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u/Aobachi Jul 02 '19

If I'm given access to something, I assume I had the rights to view it. If not, then it's not my fault.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

that's crap advice

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u/RebelLemurs Jul 02 '19

Why do you believe HR will be more receptive to the implication than the declaration? Either way, it's a horrible idea which will get you shitlisted.

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u/FirmCattle Jul 02 '19

Then he should leave if they’re unwilling to pay him what they pay others

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

I really disagree with this.

I don't see anything wrong with specifically stating that you're aware you're underpaid because some idiot emailed a random employee the salaries of everyone in the company. It's just that it only works if you actually are underpaid based on what you bring to the table.

People are saying you could be fired for looking at the list but that's just not true. Sure, HR exists to protect the company but they do that by making sure that the company complies with all labor laws and doesn't do anything stupid. Plus in this labor market it's almost certainly going to be more expensive to hire someone new to replace you anyway.

IMO OP is best off forwarding the email to HR, saying "oopsies", then pointing out that it's probably a good time to sit down and talk about his or her salary.

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u/wildmaiden Jul 02 '19

IMO OP is best off forwarding the email to HR, saying "oopsies", then pointing out that it's probably a good time to sit down and talk about his or her salary.

Exactly, there is no disagreement here...

It just won't end well for OP to say "I think I should make more because Karen is paid more than me". He should make his case based on his own contributions and merit, and if his managers and HR suspect that he knows he's underpaid because of the email it will only work in his favor.

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u/TravelingMonk Jul 02 '19

I don’t understand this logic. Being coy does nothing, what if they just play dumb? Or directly ask “what evidence do you have that you are under paid?”

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u/dragonmomz Jul 02 '19

Can you explain why mentioning it is a bad idea when both parties already know you saw it? Is there a legal implication?

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u/Shhtteeve Jul 02 '19

Emphasis on NEVER!

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

What about using it directly is a bad idea? How does that affect the negotiations/discussion?

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u/Jetsncamels Jul 02 '19

I would suggest doing some market research for this and look at other companies and the salary they offer so you can back your questions with data about why you are scheduling this. Also ask HR if they know percentage of the market they are trying to pay in (ex. If they say 85th percentile that means they are trying to pay more than 85% of consoles similar to them for a similar role) that way they have to admit to you if they are trying to be competitive or being cheap and underpaying their employees. Using data and the hard numbers are a great cover for you in this situation about why you are bringing this up.

Source: am recruiter and deal with salary discussions pretty much daily.

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u/ifeardolphins18 Jul 02 '19

If OP is never going to mention the email, then I’m not sure they should even tell HR they received the email. I work with sensitive information like salaries and personal information at my current job and on my first day my boss flat out said “if you ever distribute this information, even by accident, I promise I will fire you. I won’t necessarily want to but the CFO will make sure I do.” I think even calling attention to it will likely get someone fired or at least severely reprimanded.

But I do agree with the advice that this should at least be a step in the direction for OP to set up a meeting to discuss compensation. They could use the salaries from the email and use it as a baseline fair market rate for their work. Then HR and the relevant managers evaluating the salary increase can look at their own figures to decide what a fair salary is for the position.

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u/amItheLoon Jul 03 '19

I’m with ya. Bad idea.

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u/meltedcheeselover Jul 03 '19

idk. i think you are being obsessive. nothing wrong with mentioning it. I’d reply all, bcc your manager, say oops I opened this and now realized it was not meant for me.

Then hopefully you have 1x1 meetings with your direct manager. Bring it up and mention you add a lot if value and feel underpaid relative to your peers.

Nothing wrong with that. and in my experience in corporate America anyways, it’s your manager who would vouch for you to get a raise not HR.

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