r/personalfinance • u/ekampp • Jul 02 '19

I received an accidental mail with all salaries for everyone in the company Employment

Hey, first time posting here. Hope this post will be ok.

This is problematic in regards to personal information discretion, but my issue is:

I realized I'm being significantly underpaid in comparison to others who do the same work as me.

I feel frustrated and upset about that fact. Not sure how to approach from here.

How would you approach the situation?

EDIT 1: Thanks for all the answers. There are many good ones in-between!

There are also a few that clearly want to see the world burn 😅

I had never expected this many replies, so please don't hold it against me for not answering each one of you.

RESULT:

First off. Again, thank you to all of you, who pitched in with your personal experiences, hardships, concerns, and advice. I have read through most of all ~2000 of them 😅

I have chosen to simply delete and bury the faulty email, and I will add a bit about being careful to not forward email-chains in our security newsletter this month instead. This way it will benefit everyone in the company to be wary of forwarding email-chains. The WHOLE chain will be forwarded.

I had a sit-down with the boss-man, and he agreed to give me a raise, and a promotion.

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u/noisy_goose ​ Jul 02 '19

So true. Whenever I see posts like this, either implicitly or explicitly stated by OP, the first thing it indicates is they didn’t negotiate the best deal they could have when they were hired.

It’s super common, and I just see it as a tool to make the next negotiation better.

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u/jlrol ​ Jul 02 '19

I was hired when I was admittedly way underqualified for the position and was happy to take a low end salary to get a chance to try out the industry, but have quickly excelled in it and been given multiple promotions in less than three years.. the problem is my company is unwillingly to pay me market value/anything near my colleague in the same role because it is such a large jump from my starting salary.

Do you have any advice for me in this situation? Is it time to start looking at different companies?

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u/yusoffb01 ​ Jul 02 '19

With your experience, you can try applying and see what other companies offer

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u/jlrol ​ Jul 02 '19

I should start applying, but my original lack of credentials is kind of still an issue for me and I think my current company knows this and knows it would be difficult for me to get a new job without any schooling to back me up. But I also won't know for sure until I try so I should probably stop making excuses and just push out of my comfort zone a little

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u/rargar ​ Jul 03 '19

No hurt to try.

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u/noisy_goose ​ Jul 03 '19

Then I would put out feelers just in case. Network. And bide your time until you have the experience on paper to get the next job.

The other thing I didn’t mention, and I’ve been on the receiving end of this as well as hiring with it in mind, is that sometimes the company is hiring you because you seem bright but are underqualified BECAUSE they don’t want to pay the market value.

It’s not your “fault” you didn’t negotiate a high salary, the circumstances are what they are, and you’re essentially paying a price to earn the experience you want because it looked like the most favorable move at the time.

I’ve done exactly the same thing, and I would say just don’t get too comfortable and make sure to keep your eyes on the market and the next move. This isn’t your worth it’s just a stepping stone.

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u/jlrol ​ Jul 03 '19

This is all really great advice, thank you for it I will definitely keep it in mind going forward, especially the last line.

And I do I have a feeling my company did this with me, there are tons of reviews on it's glassdoor account that say they purposely hire recent immigrants because they can get away with underpaying them (which is gross and and exploitative on a whole different level than what they possible did with me).

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u/noisy_goose ​ Jul 03 '19

Yikes. Make them pay by becoming indispensable then taking your talent elsewhere!

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '19

[deleted]

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u/jlrol ​ Jul 03 '19

That’s a good guideline to keep in mind! Thanks for the advice and encouragement!

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u/Botelladeron Jul 03 '19

No offense intended, but if you would have trouble getting a job due to your schooling, you are most likely being paid exactly what you are worth.

Upgrade the schooling, get other offers. Good luck man!

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u/jlrol ​ Jul 03 '19

No offence taken, it’s a good point. I’m a gal, but I’ll still gratefully accept your luck..thanks for the different viewpoint!

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u/Outofmany ​ Jul 03 '19

As a manager, I always rate hunger above qualifications. You’ve proven you can do the job, boom. Now it might be hard to command the same salary but for sure someone is willing to pay you more. Then do that again until someone pays you what you’re worth.

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u/jlrol ​ Jul 03 '19

Thank you for the advice and motivation!

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u/ThroneTrader ​ Jul 03 '19

I don't know what industry your in but if you're excelling at the job without the education then you likely don't need it elsewhere doing the same job. On the job experience is invaluable and as long as you can sell it properly on your resume there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to land another job.

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u/jlrol ​ Jul 03 '19

I’m in software dev (SDET position), I’m lucky that there are almost endless online resources and communities that make self-teaching possible and fairly accepted in the industry although I do need to work on selling it and myself more haha., thank you for the direction to start reworking my resume, I think that’s a great place to start!

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u/GentleLion2Tigress Jul 03 '19

Can I suggest you might be short changing yourself? You are looking at the situation from your employer’s point of view, which is exactly what they want you to think.

How about looking at it from a potential employer’s point of view? Wow, look at the progression of promotions this person has achieved! Must have a natural talent with excellent results, has experience and would be a valuable employee here, let’s get them on board as we need good people working here!

I’ve had many positions that I would have had no chance being in if you only look at my education.

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u/jlrol ​ Jul 03 '19

Thank you so much for this. I will be saving your comment and coming back to it when I need to remind myself to look at things in a more positive way

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u/MrDude_1 ​ Jul 03 '19

I know this. I have a job that requires a doctorate degree, but I did not even go to college.

The key thing is that experience is often more important than education. After enough experience, it just counts in place of it.
That said, I found its vital how you present yourself. On your resume, focus on your career instead of filling half the thing with educational crap. I leave that section out entirely. I condense everything down to just show I started in this field down here, and worked upward over all these years to where I am now. Do that, polish it up as pretty as possible showing solid progression and experience. You can move out of it and into something that pays more appropriately.

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u/YouMirinBrah Jul 03 '19

You are absolutely justifying remaining in your comfort zone. In what way would education help or enhance your resume when you have actual experience?

You have the two things confused. You get an education in order to get the opportunity to get experience. Experience trumps education. Stop making excuses for being complacent, and get out there looking for a new job at the market rate.

Protip: Getting promoted from within almost always means you leave money on the table. It is vastly easier, and more probable to get fair market value by going to another company. You take the internal promotion to get the skillset you need to apply somewhere else to cash in on your experience.

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u/ApocMonk Jul 02 '19

My suggestion is to move companies, I had a similar situation where I moved in to IT within a company. I got good raises for the 3 years that I worked IT there but because I had started so low I was still underpaid, when I left they were hiring people for the same amount I was making despite being the "senior" tech who ran things day to day. When I changed jobs I ended up getting a 36% pay increase, the new company even offered more than I asked for so I feel like I left some money on the table.

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u/jlrol ​ Jul 02 '19

I think I need to try to. It sounds like we are in similar situations.. I'm in tech too, I met my old manager in a beginners Java night class I took for fun and after the second level class he had me interview for his QA team at this company. I took a Jr. QA position for $35k as kind of a trial because I had no relevant experience, but ended up focussing solely on automation and about a year after that transitioned to SDET (first I, although am now level II) working on automation framework. I have been given fairly large raises throughout the years and am at $60k now, but the average entry level SDET position starts at over $70k here and I now have a colleague in a similar role but with less responsibility who makes $78k (granted he has one year on me with the company and a supposed engineering degree).

It's tough because I understand my lack of experience and education is going to reflect on my salary, but I feel like I've more than proved my worth and now they are just using it as an excuse to underpay me

I'm glad you were able to find a company that sees your worth! I hope you are happy there

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u/Leon3417 ​ Jul 03 '19

IT here, too. How much experience do you have? Past the first year your background/lack of degree should matter less. Plus, companies seem to vary wildly in what they expect from people and how much they’ll pay them. Some companies are dying for people and others are, well...dying.

If you look around enough I’d bet you can find someone to give you a pay bump.

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u/nelzon1 Jul 03 '19

Change companies. Reset your value.

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u/Rand_o ​ Jul 02 '19

I was in the same exact situation, I had a great relationship with my boss and he basically told me it would just not be possible, so I left for a giant pay raise to somewhere else. I am happy with my decision.

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u/comatosesperrow Jul 02 '19

Ultimately you're going to have to jump to a new company or a very different department (if you work in a large company).

I experienced the same, they don't like salaries changing above a certain % in a promotion/raise, but moving to a new function skirted these rules.

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u/jlrol ​ Jul 02 '19

I stayed within the same department but moved positions from QA to SDET and they still tried to offer me a percentage raise on my QA salary. It sucks because my manager and department head both told me that I should be getting paid more but the executive level was only willing to work on my base salary. It's a medium sized company (250ppl), but family owned with the founders sons in the exec roles which can be frustrating at times

You're right, I need to push myself and try to make a jump to a different company eventually

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u/saufcheung ​ Jul 03 '19

Have confidence in yourself. Get the education and credentials you need. Companies will always try to get away with paying as little as they can. You need to always try to get paid as much as you can.

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u/saufcheung ​ Jul 03 '19

The bottom line is you want to get paid. Sometimes companies will attempt to appease employees with a promotion attached to a piddly pay increase. Do not fall for it.

You, as a job seeker, have the most leverage when you are interviewing at a new company so they will generally provide you with the best offer they are able to but you also have to be equipped with the knowledge of your own market value so you do not get taken advantage of. If your true market value is 100k and you are asking for 60k, do you think the company will offer you 90-100k when they know they can get away with offering you 60-70k?

Once you begin employment, you have lost much of your leverage. You will likely see modest pay increases with promises to take care of you next year. Stay 1.5-3 years, keep your eyes open, and always be ready to move on.

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u/InaMellophoneMood ​ Jul 02 '19

Looks like you know what to do, based off of your last question.

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '19

It sounds obvious to me: Get those credentials.

Then get a counter offer and ask for a match. They'll probably offer a bit less than the offer. Then decide if you like your current place enough to forgo the difference.

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u/Lorjack Jul 03 '19

Change companies, company loyalty will only harm you in the long run. I've always found that once you get hired on companies are very reluctant to increase pay to scale with the increase of workload/responsibilities. You can ask but have another offer on the table waiting for you if they don't play ball.

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u/Yuanlairuci ​ Jul 03 '19

Damn dude, it sounds like they're just asking for you to jump ship. I'd update my resume, linkedin, etc, and start sending out some feelers. If all you're looking for is market rate and you have the experience, you should have a super easy time getting what you deserve.

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u/WarbySS Jul 03 '19

Apply for other positions and if you even get offered something take it to your boss and say here's what I've been offered.

You would be surprised I was offered another 6k at my last job when I said I was going to leave.

Pulled it magically out of thin air after saying there wasnt really a way they could even put me on the benefit scheme yet.

Suddenly I'm going to go and these funds appear

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u/jlrol ​ Jul 03 '19

While it sucks that's what it took, I'm glad you got a better offer and the justification of knowing for sure it wasn't about funds they were just holding out on you. What did you end up deciding to do??

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u/swaggyj1712 Jul 03 '19

what profession do you work in?

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u/pab_guy ​ Jul 02 '19

Yes.... but any decent manager will not let your pay get that far out of line with the market. OP should find somewhere new to work.

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u/WinterMatt ​ Jul 02 '19

You're assuming OP isn't easily replaceable.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '19

Not true.

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u/XavierWT ​ Jul 02 '19

Graveyards are filled with irreplaceable people

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u/trotskyitewrecker Jul 03 '19

Maybe in certain jobs. For others it can take months to hire a new person and costs big money to get them trained and up to speed.

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u/Zodsayskneel ​ Jul 02 '19

What's the best way to find out your market value? I have a fairly generic job title "production manager" but it's in a specific sector of the entertainment industry.

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u/thelastestgunslinger ​ Jul 03 '19

This is such a backwards view. Pay shouldn't be dependent on your ability or desire to negotiate. That it is indicates real power imbalances and companies taking employees for a ride.

Companies should aim for the part of the market they can afford (eg 50th centile), and make salaries open to all. It solves every single salary-related problem in one fell swoop.

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u/Azcrf450 Jul 03 '19

Why shouldn't pay depend on ability? If your company pays you to build 10 widgets a day and you only have the ability to build 3 a day then where do you think are they going to find the money to pay for 10?

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u/Rettata Jul 03 '19

This is not what u/thelastgunslinger is saying.

He’s saying it shouldn’t be dependent on your ability to negotiate the salery that matches your job ability.

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u/noisy_goose ​ Jul 03 '19

“Should” isn’t really what we’re talking about here.

If you don’t ask for what you’re worth, even if no one tells you, that’s your problem. It’s not right, but that’s reality.

That’s why subs like this are so important. If you don’t game the system, it will game you.

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u/NoMenLikeMe ​ Jul 03 '19

I have to say that I’m curious how I’d go about researching my market value. I’m almost done with a PhD in biochemistry, and have been looking at job sites, but the numbers there seem asinine (both high and low). I would really like to start my career off right and not leave anything on the table, as I’ve sacrificed an additional six years of real wages and saving. Lots of catching up to do.

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u/noisy_goose ​ Jul 03 '19

I only have an MA, but part of my thesis process personally was not knowing wtf I was doing or what the process was supposed to be until I was basically done.

For me t was like that. I bumbled around until I’d had enough interviews to know what the heck was going on, to know enough people (friends/network) who I was close enough to share some salary info, and then finally, to get into a position to start hiring people myself and getting my hands on my company’s budget.

So that took me ten years, I wouldn’t recommend it.

If I were you, I would target specific organizations and see if there is anything you can find out online or through your network. Can your advisor connect you to someone in the know? That might be a way into the info. Even reddit can give a good broad range too.

If you don’t have a non-ridiculous range by the time you’re searching, I would apply for jobs you are qualified for and want to do and try really hard to get into an interview and get them to give you a range for the position before you tell them what you want. Not ideal, but you could make it to the offer and see what they say, and if it works for you counter like, 20-25% more and see if somewhere in the middle works for you.

Congrats on your PhD!

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u/NoMenLikeMe ​ Jul 03 '19

Thank you so much for all the feedback. I definitely have a couple of companies in my sights, and will focus on mining salary data where I can for them. Hopefully, I’ll find some more good folks like you that are in my field. You are awesome, and thank you again.

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u/iopihop ​ Jul 03 '19

What have you found to be a good way to negotiate if after you are offered a position you look at the market value and compensation offered is less than you'd like.

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u/noisy_goose ​ Jul 03 '19

You need to be willing to walk away to do this, but I’d say exactly what you’re looking for and see if they will meet you.

If you have already put out a range, you could say that as you’ve discussed the position through the interview process you think a more appropriate figure was X.

You hopefully are also looking at other companies, so if it is true you could say you’re pursuing several opportunities, and X is the salary you are comfortable with. Or that you have a competing offer (if it’s true).

Ideally you would be qualifying the employer throughout your search by discussing comp range mid way through / earlier in the process than the offer, but that might not always be the case, especially if you’re just starting your career.

Also, your perceived value (what you “should” be making) and actual market value (what someone will actually pay you) are probably never going to align. So I would temper how desperate you are (maybe not at all, maybe very) with your perceived market value, and just go into it with your eyes open. What are you willing to take. What would you be happy with. What would be delightful. And probably ask for the high number (if you’ve done your research and know it’s not ridiculous) and then you know you’ve negotiated fully and aren’t leaving money on the table.

Edit: clarity, expanded thought

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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '19

Your starting wage sets it all up. You need to discipline yourself not to accept a low initial offer because in most cases you're only getting marginal increments year on year from there on.