My apologies, I am just trying to understand. Why won't they make the choice? There are people who were once Christians who truly and faithfully believed in Jesus Christ but due to circumstances in their lives, have converted to other religions, or became atheists.
Scripture teaches that true believers won't fall away.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
That passage does not answer my question though. That passage says that those who fall away were not from them. It doesn't say if God will or will not remove their free will to choose to fall away after they've "sealed" their salvation.
My question is if God will remove someone's free will once their salvation is "sealed"? As someone else commented, even Paul who truly believed and preached the Gospel knew he could've been disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27
No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
And also those who have known the way of righteousness can also turn their backs on it
2 Peter 2:21-22
It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
There are also pastors who truly believed and ministered to many believers who then converted
I would think that if they didn't truly believe when they did, at least for the pastors, they wouldn't have spent years preaching, ministering and bringing people to Christ. There would be nothing to gain if they were lying.
If it's possible to fall away after truly believing, preaching, ministering, and bringing others to Christ, how would anyone know if salvation is "sealed"? Or does God hold people captive against their wills in heaven, even after they do not want to accept Christ anymore, since it was "sealed"?
In other words, to someone who doesn't want to be with God, does God say "even though you don't want to be here, you have no choice because your salvation was sealed."?
According to the Reformed picture as I (non-religious) understand it, the will chooses what it wants. It is not that the non-elect cannot choose God, rather they cannot form a heart's desire for God, and thus will not make a full/lasting choice for God. This may manifest as an apparent wavering faith. It was never a secure, saving faith, because true desire for God is something God has promised to preserve in us.
Funny how you conveniently left out the verses immediately following the one you quoted, showing that God is loving and merciful, unlike a god who damns his creations through no fault of their own.
?? Doesn't change a thing, just reinforces 9:21. Our creator does as what is best in his will and for his glory. I cannot even change the color of a single hair, now largely grey. Who am I to question the Will which created the heavens and the earth?
9:22-23 tells us that God bears with great patience and mercy the objects of His wrath, in order to make the riches of His glory known to them.
That's vastly different from the person you are defending who believes in a god who damns some of his creations to to his wrath from the very beginning through no fault of their own. Doesn't sound like a loving or merciful god to me.
There is an entire book of the Bible which deals with the consequence of unbelief, even those who think they are in the club. Judgement is part of the plan. Who are we to challenge the judgement of the Creator? BTW, "patience" doesn't mean judgement is eternally postponed.
So if I understand you correctly, at the moment God creates a soul, he judges it unworthy through no fault of choice of its own, did nothing wrong other than to have been created unworthy, and damns it to eternal torment? How do you reconcile that with God being all-loving? Or do you not believe that God is all-loving?
We are all doomed by sin, there is no one who has not sinned. We all deserve judgement and punishment. By grace some are saved. Do read Scripture differently?
You're not answering my question. How do you reconcile an all-loving (omnibenevolent) God with a God that condems some of his creations to eternal torment through no fault of their own? Are you saying that sending them to hell is an act of love?
Do read Scripture differently?
I wonder that too. If Jesus died so only some are saved by grace, then how do you explain Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
And 1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
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u/Back1821 17d ago edited 17d ago
My apologies, I am just trying to understand. Why won't they make the choice? There are people who were once Christians who truly and faithfully believed in Jesus Christ but due to circumstances in their lives, have converted to other religions, or became atheists.