Funny how you conveniently left out the verses immediately following the one you quoted, showing that God is loving and merciful, unlike a god who damns his creations through no fault of their own.
?? Doesn't change a thing, just reinforces 9:21. Our creator does as what is best in his will and for his glory. I cannot even change the color of a single hair, now largely grey. Who am I to question the Will which created the heavens and the earth?
9:22-23 tells us that God bears with great patience and mercy the objects of His wrath, in order to make the riches of His glory known to them.
That's vastly different from the person you are defending who believes in a god who damns some of his creations to to his wrath from the very beginning through no fault of their own. Doesn't sound like a loving or merciful god to me.
There is an entire book of the Bible which deals with the consequence of unbelief, even those who think they are in the club. Judgement is part of the plan. Who are we to challenge the judgement of the Creator? BTW, "patience" doesn't mean judgement is eternally postponed.
So if I understand you correctly, at the moment God creates a soul, he judges it unworthy through no fault of choice of its own, did nothing wrong other than to have been created unworthy, and damns it to eternal torment? How do you reconcile that with God being all-loving? Or do you not believe that God is all-loving?
We are all doomed by sin, there is no one who has not sinned. We all deserve judgement and punishment. By grace some are saved. Do read Scripture differently?
You're not answering my question. How do you reconcile an all-loving (omnibenevolent) God with a God that condems some of his creations to eternal torment through no fault of their own? Are you saying that sending them to hell is an act of love?
Do read Scripture differently?
I wonder that too. If Jesus died so only some are saved by grace, then how do you explain Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
And 1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
There are just as many references if not more which imply that only the "elect" are saved. How would you reconcile this? There are countless references to God's judgement... see Revelations. Are all to be saved regardless? While such a notion may appeal to a modern notion of "fairness," it certainly doesn't hold up to a full reading of Scripture (Pharoah hardened his own heart, and they God hardened it some more). When taken in its totality it seems while Grace is available to all, far from all accept it. You are swerving into a discussion of the notion of "free will" which is a concept never found in Scripture, but was very prominent in Greek and Roman philosophy. As a final point, there is much mystery in how God works and the degree his Grace is extended. These are questions which are far above our pay grade. We are not meant to know even a tiny portion of the mind of God... how can we for we are merely men and can barely understand anything of this world. It really matters little what you or I believe, God will act according to His will for He is sovereign over everything regardless of our own beliefs as to how He should act.
There are just as many references if not more which imply that only the "elect" are saved.
Which ones would you like to discuss?
There are countless references to God's judgement... see Revelations.
As I understand it, they are judged by their free choice to have faith and act upon that faith, or not.
(Pharoah hardened his own heart, and they God hardened it some more.)
As I understand it, Pharaoh's heart was hardened like how clay is hardened in response to heat from the sun, while others, like wax, melts from the same heat. i.e. "the sun hardened the clay. The sun melted the wax". Some, when confronted with authority, bow down. Authority melted their hearts. Others, when confronted with authority, rebel. Authority hardened their hearts. Here is a video with a more detailed explanation.
You are swerving into a discussion of the notion of "free will" which is a concept never found in Scripture,
First of all, the very first comment I made in this post is a question addressing free will. If anything, you've been the one attempting to sweve away from it and avoid answering my questions.
Next, here are some passages regarding the concept of free will:
Galatians 5:13: You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
John 7:17: Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Joshua 24:15: But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
As a final point, there is much mystery in how God works and the degree his Grace is extended.
I agree. However, I believe that God has revealed Himself to us through scripture for a reason, that we may come to know Him, though not fully, but as much as he wants us to know. And from scripture, I know that God is all-loving and desires all of His creations to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4). It is logically impossible to claim God is love if you believe that He damns some of His creations to eternal tortmennt through no fault of their own. To say that God created them without the capacity to have faith is blasphemy against God.
Your will is utterly bent by sin, how is it "free?" The idea of "free will" comes from the Greeks and Romans. It is never even hinted at in Scripture let alone outright stated. Be careful where you get your world view from. It may appear to you that your will is free, but as a fish doesn't know it is wet, you can't see how your "will" is subject to God's sovereignty. How would you know where your sinful nature and bent "will" ends and God's Will begins?
The idea of "free will" comes from the Greeks and Romans. It is never even hinted at in Scripture let alone outright stated.
Why do you ignore the scriptures I provided you and repeat the same thing without addressing my question? Please answer what do these passages on free will mean:
Galatians 5:13: You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.
John 7:17: Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Joshua 24:15: But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
Also, since you mentioned that free will "isn't outright stated", you should know that the Trinity isn't outright mentioned either.
Be careful where you get your world view from. It may appear to you that your will is free, but as a fish doesn't know it is wet, you can't see how your "will" is subject to God's sovereignty. How would you know where your sinful nature and bent "will" ends and God's Will begins?
I highly recommend that you practice what you preach, because blaspheming against God is a grave sin. I've been charitable to you, answering your points and providing you with explanations and links, while you attempt to swerve away, ignore my questions, refuse to explain anything. Now, which of us is avoiding the truth? When you lied that the concept of free will isn't in the bible, I gave you 3 scripture passages that mentioned that very concept. And then you ignored it completely and repeated the same lie.
Just by your behavior alone, if I'm going to be careful about getting my worldview from anywhere, it'll be from you, someone who doubles down lying about scripture. If I'm going to go by your belief that God is not all loving, I'm staying far away from that, because it goes directly against scripture.
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u/Back1821 17d ago
Funny how you conveniently left out the verses immediately following the one you quoted, showing that God is loving and merciful, unlike a god who damns his creations through no fault of their own.