r/Protestantism 18d ago

Soli Deo Gloria

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u/Back1821 18d ago edited 18d ago

If the one whose salvation is sealed later on through his own free choice for whatever reason decided he no longer wants to be saved, does God violate his free will and not allow him to reject salvation and force him to be held captive against his will because it is sealed?

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u/SCCock PCA 17d ago

If someone is truly saved, they won't do this.

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u/Back1821 17d ago

So if they are truly saved, they no longer have free will?

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u/SCCock PCA 17d ago

I never said that, please don't misrepresent what I am saying.

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u/Back1821 17d ago edited 17d ago

My apologies, I am just trying to understand. Why won't they make the choice? There are people who were once Christians who truly and faithfully believed in Jesus Christ but due to circumstances in their lives, have converted to other religions, or became atheists.

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u/SCCock PCA 17d ago

Scripture teaches that true believers won't fall away.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

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u/Back1821 17d ago edited 16d ago

That passage does not answer my question though. That passage says that those who fall away were not from them. It doesn't say if God will or will not remove their free will to choose to fall away after they've "sealed" their salvation.

My question is if God will remove someone's free will once their salvation is "sealed"? As someone else commented, even Paul who truly believed and preached the Gospel knew he could've been disqualified.

1 Corinthians 9:27

No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

And also those who have known the way of righteousness can also turn their backs on it

2 Peter 2:21-22

It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

There are also pastors who truly believed and ministered to many believers who then converted

Here is a whole list of people including pastors

I would think that if they didn't truly believe when they did, at least for the pastors, they wouldn't have spent years preaching, ministering and bringing people to Christ. There would be nothing to gain if they were lying.

If it's possible to fall away after truly believing, preaching, ministering, and bringing others to Christ, how would anyone know if salvation is "sealed"? Or does God hold people captive against their wills in heaven, even after they do not want to accept Christ anymore, since it was "sealed"?

In other words, to someone who doesn't want to be with God, does God say "even though you don't want to be here, you have no choice because your salvation was sealed."?

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u/teffflon non-religious 16d ago

According to the Reformed picture as I (non-religious) understand it, the will chooses what it wants. It is not that the non-elect cannot choose God, rather they cannot form a heart's desire for God, and thus will not make a full/lasting choice for God. This may manifest as an apparent wavering faith. It was never a secure, saving faith, because true desire for God is something God has promised to preserve in us.

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u/Back1821 16d ago edited 16d ago

I see, so the Reformed believe in a god that creates non-elect people he damns to hell from the beginning through no fault of their own.

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u/AndrewRemillard 14d ago

Romans 9:21

Or hasn't the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?

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u/Back1821 14d ago

Funny how you conveniently left out the verses immediately following the one you quoted, showing that God is loving and merciful, unlike a god who damns his creations through no fault of their own.

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u/AndrewRemillard 13d ago

?? Doesn't change a thing, just reinforces 9:21. Our creator does as what is best in his will and for his glory. I cannot even change the color of a single hair, now largely grey. Who am I to question the Will which created the heavens and the earth?

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u/Back1821 13d ago

9:22-23 tells us that God bears with great patience and mercy the objects of His wrath, in order to make the riches of His glory known to them.

That's vastly different from the person you are defending who believes in a god who damns some of his creations to to his wrath from the very beginning through no fault of their own. Doesn't sound like a loving or merciful god to me.

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