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u/Back1821 15d ago edited 15d ago
If the one whose salvation is sealed later on through his own free choice for whatever reason decided he no longer wants to be saved, does God violate his free will and not allow him to reject salvation and force him to be held captive against his will because it is sealed?
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u/SCCock PCA 14d ago
If someone is truly saved, they won't do this.
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u/Back1821 14d ago
So if they are truly saved, they no longer have free will?
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u/SCCock PCA 14d ago
I never said that, please don't misrepresent what I am saying.
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u/Back1821 14d ago edited 14d ago
My apologies, I am just trying to understand. Why won't they make the choice? There are people who were once Christians who truly and faithfully believed in Jesus Christ but due to circumstances in their lives, have converted to other religions, or became atheists.
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u/SCCock PCA 14d ago
Scripture teaches that true believers won't fall away.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
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u/Back1821 14d ago edited 13d ago
That passage does not answer my question though. That passage says that those who fall away were not from them. It doesn't say if God will or will not remove their free will to choose to fall away after they've "sealed" their salvation.
My question is if God will remove someone's free will once their salvation is "sealed"? As someone else commented, even Paul who truly believed and preached the Gospel knew he could've been disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27
No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
And also those who have known the way of righteousness can also turn their backs on it
2 Peter 2:21-22
It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
There are also pastors who truly believed and ministered to many believers who then converted
Here is a whole list of people including pastors
I would think that if they didn't truly believe when they did, at least for the pastors, they wouldn't have spent years preaching, ministering and bringing people to Christ. There would be nothing to gain if they were lying.
If it's possible to fall away after truly believing, preaching, ministering, and bringing others to Christ, how would anyone know if salvation is "sealed"? Or does God hold people captive against their wills in heaven, even after they do not want to accept Christ anymore, since it was "sealed"?
In other words, to someone who doesn't want to be with God, does God say "even though you don't want to be here, you have no choice because your salvation was sealed."?
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u/teffflon non-religious 13d ago
According to the Reformed picture as I (non-religious) understand it, the will chooses what it wants. It is not that the non-elect cannot choose God, rather they cannot form a heart's desire for God, and thus will not make a full/lasting choice for God. This may manifest as an apparent wavering faith. It was never a secure, saving faith, because true desire for God is something God has promised to preserve in us.
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u/Back1821 13d ago edited 13d ago
I see, so the Reformed believe in a god that creates non-elect people he damns to hell from the beginning through no fault of their own.
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u/AndrewRemillard 11d ago
Romans 9:21
Or hasn't the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
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u/Legitimate-Panda2926 14d ago
There are many parables in the Bible that seem unnecessary if one cannot lose salvation. For example, the Parable of the Ten Virgins illustrates that only the five who prepared for the bridegroom’s arrival (by making the effort to secure oil for their lamps) were allowed to enter the wedding feast. If salvation cannot be lost, the warning tone of this parable becomes irrelevant, making its inclusion puzzling. In my experience as a Protestant, I rarely heard sermons on this parable, perhaps because it challenges the belief in eternal security. On the other hand, the Catholic Church addresses all the parables in harmony with its understanding of salvation, which emphasizes ongoing faith, works, and vigilance.
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9d ago
Don’t disrespect the Rosary and our Blessed Mother.
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u/WinterSun22O9 9d ago
Don't disrespect the Lord by making up your own doctrine about a necklace and an ordinary sinner and claiming it came from God.
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9d ago
I pray that one day Jesus will open your eyes. There is no point in arguing; prayer is the best solution to everything!
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u/peg-puff 1d ago
I pray yours will too and you will finally see the Truth that Jesus is the only one worthy of receiving our prayers. not another sinner, nor angels.
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15d ago edited 15d ago
“Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.” James 5:16 NIV
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9 NIV
“If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”” John 20:23 NIV
Nice straw-man. But scripture supports the catholic view.
Yes nobody can snatch you out of Gods hands. But you can through your own will turn away from God.
Even St. Paul knew he could lose his salvation. “No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.” 1 Corinthians 9:27 NIV
Or you could be like the Dog who returns to it’s vomit “It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”” 2 Peter 2:21-22 NIV
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u/WinterSun22O9 9d ago
Nobody's reading all that Catholic fanfiction. We're happy for you, though. Or sorry that happened.
Hopefully your obvious conviction over Catholicism being wrong (given that you trawl and harass Protestant spaces more than you spend time doing good on Catholic ones) and often blasphemous will help you learn the truth.
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10d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Protestantism-ModTeam 9d ago
Loving God is a command of Christ and a rule of this sub. Posts which are not loving towards God will be removed.
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u/TheLordOfMiddleEarth Confessional Lutheran 15d ago
Us Lutherans are basically in the middle on this issue.
I guess we are halfway Papist sissy babies.