r/theology 7d ago

Is God all-good

So my question is relatively straightforward but does require a little logical ladder that must be followed to understand it. Firstly, we accept that, even though God knows our past, present, and future, we have free will. That’s the basis of my question. God allows us to make our own decisions in life. However, logically speaking, He is an all knowing deity. That just follows from religious thought for the last several thousand years. So we can logically conclude that God knows an infinite amount of information about our reality in comparison to us. Now, to bring up the counterpoint. A parent knows almost infinitely more about reality than an infant does. This is, of course, relative. However, would an infinitely more intelligent parent allow their infant to do something that would end with their suffering. Let’s say for example, the child is playing with an outlet. The good parent would not allow their child to do that. Of course there is the argument that a child does not know, and is therefore not responsible for their deeds simply because they have no experience. Now let’s say the child knows that it is wrong to hurt the family dog, yet they do it anyways for whatever reason. A good parent would not allow their child do go down the path that would lead to their own harm (I.e. the mental outcomes of harming things as a child usually leads to darker actions in the future). A good parent would not let their child do this because harm would come to them either physically or mentally. Now God allows us to make our own choices that lead us to damnation. But He knows more than us of course and knows the horrors that await. A parent knows the horrors that await their own child if they follow down a foolish path, knowingly or otherwise. How can we say as Christians that God is all good given he allows us to follow a path that even a parent would not allow an infant to do. I am Christian and this is not any hatred towards Christianity, only a logical fallacy that I cannot follow. Any explanation or conversation on the matter would help.

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u/cbrooks97 7d ago

Let’s say for example, the child is playing with an outlet. The good parent would not allow their child to do that.

Actually, there are many good parents who refuse to wrap their kids in bubble wrap and actually let them get minor, educational injuries.

Then there is the question of whether you can really have free will when someone is there magically stopping you from ever actually exercising that will. We are free to choose to obey God or not -- that is the only free choice that matters. If we cannot choose to disobey God, we're just robots or puppets.

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u/NewtonianVariant 7d ago

It’s not the matter of minor scrapes and bruises. It is the choice of damnation or paradise on the part of an uneducated party, be that people from the perspective of God or the child from the perspective of us parents. I agree on your part about wrapping a child in a bubble. There are necessary consequences to actions that must occur during development. But this isnt skinning your knee on the slide it’s life or death. At what point does the more intelligent party step in. So let me put it this way. We as adult humans can make a choice between heaven and hell via our actions. God allows this of course. But what GOOD parent sits back and watches their child shoot themself and k!ll themselves. In allowing us free will, God has (for all logical purposes) chosen to be the parent that does that. So the argument presents itself again in the question: “Is allowing us free will good?”. Now of course I am glad that we have free will and will forever be thankful for that, but the fact remains that there are no safety restraints. A parent wants their child home at a certain time for their own safety. When a child becomes su!cidal the parent gets them help and does not allow them to doom themselves. Why then does God allow us to do that when we (obviously) have only the barest concept of our own reality just as a child has the barest concept of their own life?

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u/cbrooks97 7d ago

You're asking for free will without consequences, or basically free will without free will. You want a nonsense.

Now of course I am glad that we have free will

OK. This is the world free will gets us. Will it result in some being lost? Yes. Apparently the losses are an acceptable cost relative to the desired outcome, which is a sufficient number of people who freely choose God.

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u/HostileHyperborean 7d ago

If “God” cannot create a universe with free will without consequences(or evil) then that “God” is not omnipotent. So if he is omnibenevolent but not omnipotent he falls short of being the supreme perfect “One”(in the platonic sense of the term) who is all three in one, omnipotent, omibenevolent, and omniscient.

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u/cbrooks97 6d ago

"If God cannot blimpsquik, then God is not omnipotent!"

As Lewis said, putting "God can" before nonsense does not make it any less nonsense.

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u/HostileHyperborean 6d ago edited 6d ago

“If god cannot” is not the same as saying god can, instead it implies a previous question of “Can God”. It is the other way around. We start from the apparent experience of evil then move our way into the “can God” questioning. Really slow down and process the epicurean paradox from an unbiased perspective, you will find it will improve your theology not take away from it. Also C.S. Lewis wasnt that great of a theologian, he was unaware of many of the crucial foundations and advancements throught history. This is why most people never make progress in theology because they neglect to research what may, at face value, be threatening to their worldview.

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u/self-honesty 7d ago

If “God” cannot create a universe with free will without consequences(or evil) then that “God” is not omnipotent.

He did, when God created the universe, there wasn't any evil in it. People choose to create evil. Also God created Heaven, where people have free will, but they don't choose evil because they don't want to.

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u/HostileHyperborean 6d ago edited 3d ago

This makes no sense. If “God” creates a Universe with absolutely no evil, the beings that share his spirit are capable of evil? Which also proves that he didnt create a universe without evil. Slow down and really think about this. Epicurus wasnt an imbecile and wasnt an athiest. He simply proved the gnostic position that the creator is not omnibenevolent and not the Supreme perfect being. That being lies outside of categories and is only eluded at by an apophatic theology. The most high God is “Not, Not”, that is all we can affirm. Meaning the creator that we affirm by his “works” is the imperfect one.

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u/self-honesty 3d ago

This makes no sense. If “God” creates a Universe will absolutely no evil, the beings that share his spirit are capable of evil?

It makes no sense because of a question? The beings God created are capable of evil and there was a point in the universes history when the was no evil. There's nothing there that doesn't make sense.

Which also proves that he didnt create a universe without evil.

A question doesn't prove anything. And that isn't proven. I can create a Y that is capable of X, that doesn't mean as soon as I create Y, X has happened.

He simply proved the gnostic position that the creator is not omnibenevolent and not the Supreme perfect being.

He did not.

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u/HostileHyperborean 3d ago

Wrong, your answer was “he did”. That is a contradiction because if you admit god creates a universe with free will and no evil why would there be evil in it? That logic doesnt add up. Just think about this a little deeper and you should arrive at the absurdity of a statement such as “the creator of the universe is omnibenevolent”. I dont say this with a tone or to be disrespectful, i mean this in the most supportive tone possible.

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u/self-honesty 2d ago edited 2d ago

Wrong, your answer was “he did”.

You haven't proven anything I said wrong.

That is a contradiction because if you admit god creates a universe with free will and no evil why would there be evil in it?

Because people are capable of creating evil, because of free will. No contradiction.

Just like most people are capable of committing murder, yet haven't. No contradiction again.