r/sysadmin • u/TheLoneTechGuy • Aug 07 '23
CEO want to cancel all WFH Question
Our CEO want to cancel all work from home arrangements, because he got inspired by Elon Musk (or so he says).
In 3-4 months work from home are only for all hours above 45 each week. So if you put in 45 hours at the office, you can work from home after that. Contracts state we have a 37,5 hour week.
I am head of IT, and have fought a hard battle for office workers (we are a retail chain) to get WFH and won that battle some time ago.
How would you all react to this?
Edit: I am blown away by all the responses, will try and get back to everyone
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u/bofh2023 IT Manager Aug 07 '23
Tell him that hiring and training new people involves real cost to the business, and people WILL quit over this.
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u/TheLoneTechGuy Aug 07 '23
That was actually a good idea š
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u/signal_lost Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 08 '23
The better threat is who will stay and what it will cost.
āIāll lose my top 1/3 of my talent over this. The middle 1/3 itāll be a push who stays and goes, so we are going to he adding a lot of work to the bottom 1/3. Given how widespread WFH is for IT workers, we are going to have to accept being in retail (worse wages/hours) that without it we will be recruiting from the bottom 1/3 of the talent pool here on our.
We can do this, but we will have to make some adjustments to device levels, and hire 2-3x as many people in some areas to make up for sub-par talent for the price.
Itās also worth noting that if you were inspired by Elon. musk, he tends to be incredibly generous with Equity grants. If you can give me a few million in RSUs to spread across the team I might be able to reduce attrition to 1/2.
A mid level IT technologist at Tesla is looking at 260K in TC.
If you want to manage like Elon you need to pay like Elon. Mr. CEO Iām excited with this new chapter in the business and look forward to discussing my retention bonus and pile of RSUs!
Thereās a better off, ted episode about water fountains that kind of typifies how management looks at HR decisions . I suggest everyone here study it.
Edit
Another thing to point out is for some roles you will depending on office location be unable to hire locally for them. For these roles youāll need to pay a MSP to You guessed it! remotely do these jobs. For added fun, ask if your old good people if they can be be 1099 contractors for 4x their old rate to remotely fix stuff.
Iād your boss doesnāt allow remote contractors discuss flight and hotel costs for flying in consultants, and contractors to do jobs.
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u/Reddywhipt Aug 07 '23
Better off Ted deserved 10 seasons brilliant show.
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u/_sweepy Aug 07 '23
I saw season 1 about a decade ago, then found out there was a season 2 several years later. If I could bottle that feeling I had when I found out another season existed, I could probably sell it as a new club drug.
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u/Smile_lifeisgood Aug 07 '23
4 years after 30 Rock ended I learned that there was an episode with James Franco that somehow I had missed.
Turning on that episode to watch felt like there was a new episode airing but only for me. It was magical.
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u/OldheadBoomer Aug 08 '23
If you haven't already watched them, there are two "lost episodes" that never aired, but are available on Amazon, Netflix, etc - S2 E12 & 13.
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u/WingedDrake Aug 07 '23
Aperture Science as a sitcom. Brilliant show; man what I would have given to have Netflix pick that one up and keep it running.
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u/Marathon2021 Aug 07 '23
Not to mention that whether you like Elon Musk or not, Tesla is doing some of the most cutting-edge AI, battery, and robotics development on the planet. People want to be a part of that, so they may be more likely to swallow a return-to-offices mandate moreso than average joe retail chain as an employer.
It amazes me how often I see "hey, Netflix did 'X' and Google did 'Y' so we're going to do X and Y!" come up ... for like, a kitchen cabinet manufacturer or something. LOL - #1, you're not Netflix/Google, and #2 - you're not in the bay area.
In OP's case, I'd attempt to trade it for a 4-day work week schedule instead. You want return to office? Fine, give a trade - embrace 4-day work weeks. Even if you make it 9 hour days so that it still balances out to 36 hours a week. Give half the employee pool Mondays off and half the employee pool Fridays off and you'll still have 100% coverage 3 days a week.
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Aug 07 '23
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u/Chemical_Chemist_461 Aug 07 '23
Donāt forget the napping areas and massage rooms, with actual FTE massage therapists, on site gyms with FTE trainers, the 20% rule, memegen to trash talk your boss with memes shared internally, baristas, beer taps almost every 30 feet, speakeasyās with liquorā¦. Just to name a few more
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u/ikbenlike Aug 07 '23
Research shows that employees hate free food & convenient access to commonly necessary services. Don't believe me? Google "bullshit"
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u/rainer_d Aug 07 '23
Itās called Cargo Culting. We literally had a customer come to us with slides from a presentation from someone from Netflix.
I wasnāt at the meeting but I would have had a hard time not just bursting out laughing.
They didnāt even know Docker or had a git workflowā¦.
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u/Marathon2021 Aug 07 '23
One of my analysts in our company built a conference presentation several years back more or less titled "You are not Netflix..." and it was an awesome, yet level-headed, take on what innovations might make sense broadly vs. not.
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u/jasutherland Aug 08 '23
I've had a "fun" few years scraping lots of extra "microservicy" overhead out of our codebase. (No, you do not need to build a "substitute one integer for another in a 200k block of JSON" microservice, however much you want to be Netflix...)
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u/Ron-Swanson-Mustache IT Manager Aug 07 '23
I've known people who worked for Tesla when WFH was pulled. They went to other companies.
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u/jimicus My first computer is in the Science Museum. Aug 07 '23
A name like Tesla on the CV opens doors.
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u/Ron-Swanson-Mustache IT Manager Aug 07 '23
So does 10+ years of engineering work history and a ME degree.
I've got a friend who is very high up network engineer in a private space company (not headed by Musk or Bezos) who skipped over those. I've also looked at them and decided not to apply despite the pay. Work / life balance is not a priority there.
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u/ApricotPenguin Professional Breaker of All Things Aug 07 '23
Itās also worth noting that if you were inspired by Elon. musk, he tends to be incredibly generous with Equity grants. If you can give me a few million in RSUs to spread across the team I might be able to reduce attrition to 1/2.
Didn't Elon also stop paying rent for their building?
Uhh that's probably crucial for this strategy of cacelling all WFH... yep, don't question it too much Mr. CEO!
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u/groumly Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 08 '23
100%, this is a case of losing the best talent and being stuck with the average/under performing employees. Itās a move similarly stupid to a company doing bad that fires the highest paid engineers, when those are the most productive/efficient ones that you want to keep on board.
I ran into a variant of this recently. Long story short, company predicted voluntary attrition (people jumping ship) would be within a certain range.
With the state of the industry, attrition didnāt happen. Under performers are clinging to their job, cause they know they arenāt getting another one easily. Some high performers wanted more money, didnāt get it, and still managed to find something else, because theyāre high performers. Bottom line, we lost some key folks, that arenāt getting replaced at the same level of skills/productivity.I wouldnāt play the Ā«Ā give us more money, since weāre now on the elon school of managementĀ Ā», itāll derail the conversation. Stick to something thatāll resonate with upper management: good talent is increasingly hard to find these days, and theyāre the only ones jumping ship because hiring slowed down in the industry.
Cave in to the A players demands so youāre not stuck with a team of C players and overworked B players.
Edit: just one word.
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u/asdlkf Sithadmin Aug 07 '23
It's worse than that.
You'll lose your good 1/3. The mediocre 1/3 and lazy/bad 1/3 will not risk unemployment.
You'll literally skim off your best 1/3 of the workforce and be left with the bottom 2/3.
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u/Nathaniel82A Aug 07 '23
Donāt forget the extensions to any ongoing projects that would be required as well as increased project timelines for all projects moving forward due to the talent being in the bottom 1/3. So that 3 month project is now a 6-8 month project.
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u/AdvicePerson Aug 07 '23
More relevant than Telsa: Elon is currently spending all his energy on X (the app formerly known as Twitter), which quite famously keeps breaking in new and exciting ways. Is that the model your CEO wants for your company?
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u/SporadicTendancies Aug 07 '23
It's a great episode especially when they have to hire more people than actually exist.
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u/superkp Aug 07 '23
OP, I can confirm.
My company (an enterprise software company) tried to go back to the office. People quit the first day it was official. People quit over the next weeks. Even when they did an about-face on the policy, people were still quitting, because they heard what other people were getting in their new jobs - a raise plus 100% WFH.
they ended up needing to backpedal so hard that everyone in the support department got a raise to match local industry rates.
In the end, they lost about half of the most experienced people in support, everyone that stayed got somewhere between a 3-10% raise (depending on what you were making before, and how your metrics look), and they needed to fill some 20-30 empty seats, in a department of a little over a hundred.
It wasn't even any sort of organized thing. it was literally people saying
dude did you hear about matt? apparently he interviewed like a month ago (when corporate started talking about it more seriously) and was kind of on the fence about leaving. the official call back to the office made the decision for him. He just called them up and said he can start - and he's taking a vacation in between!
and
Wow, I didn't realize that Jane had moved all the way to florida! I guess you're not going to commute 12 hours north every day!
and
Yeah, I applied for like 3 places. They all gave me an offer. The one I took wasn't exactly my favorite, but it was $3/hour raise and permanent WFH already baked into a bunch of their policies. I made it clear that I needed WFH in my contract specifically. It was no problem.
Literally just the top people getting out fast, and the rumor mill doing what they do.
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u/Cyberbird85 Just figure it out, You're the expert! Aug 08 '23
Even when they did an about-face on the policy, people were still quitting, because they heard what other people were getting in their new jobs - a raise
plus
100% WFH.
This, you can't put this genie back into the bottle, once it's freed.
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u/No_Investigator3369 Aug 07 '23
How many outright refused and forced the company to terminate them? Any reason not to do this? Helps with unemployment in my book.
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u/Andrew_Waltfeld Aug 07 '23
Typical ratio to get someone up to speed (training, HR, paperwork etc.) after letting a person go is 1 to 2.5x whatever your paying them yearly. It does Depend upon complexity of their job and just plain how good they are at their job. If someone leaves who does the work of 3 people, your gonna need 3 bodies to fill in that gap.
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Aug 07 '23
Yeah I feel that I got hired to fill someone who was constantly working 60-80+hr a week to do the work of 3 people.. boy are they irritated I canāt get everything done doing my 40hr and no more.
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u/JAFIOR Aug 07 '23
40hr work week is the standard. If I put in time in the evenings or on the weekends, it comes off the next week's 40. I also replaced someone who had a habit of working long hours and taking on other people's work. I would gladly do that, but it'll require a 50-75% percent increase in my salary.
Eight for eight. That's my mantra.
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u/RevLoveJoy Aug 07 '23
And some of them will quit because they will feel you lied to them. The CEO is asking you to tarnish your reputation by going back on your word and (I'm guessing here) things you sold people when they were hired.
We all know a LOT of people who are hearing the no more WFH line from the same people who hired them as WFH. And the vibe there is not good. What's the saying? It takes years to build genuine trust and about 5 minutes to ruin it.
The more important question, as an IT leader, can you afford to have your entire team low level hating you because the CEO wants butts in chairs?
Also anyone who says Elon inspires them is someone I would absolutely not listen to. Just saying.
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u/gashed_senses Jack of All Trades Aug 07 '23
I agree with that sentiment 100%. The guy is an edgelord.
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u/RevLoveJoy Aug 07 '23
Generally I don't enjoy watching the failures of others, but I have made buckets of popcorn watching Elon's 44 billion dollar ego check burn to the fucking ground. Could watch that show, eh, at least twice. Elon, baby, if you're reading, next do Fox "News"
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u/FearAndGonzo Senior Flash Developer Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 08 '23
I quit my last job because of a WFH mandate. Suddenly after that all WFH for IT was reinstated. Too late for me, but saved the rest of them. It might take some people leaving to really let it sink in. Or, maybe that is just the way they want to run the company, and they only want the type of employees that want to work in an office. That is their decision. It is your decision to go along with it or not.
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u/No_Investigator3369 Aug 07 '23
My Fortune 30 job is sending mixed signals so I've already started looking elsewhere. I'm in a niche network architect type of role so pretty secure but definitely putting together my fuck around and find out plan where I take the severance and am ready to bolt. There's something about large companies that feels very insecure.
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u/Gamingwithyourmom Principal Endpoint Architect Aug 07 '23
I am literally a benefactor of the last team outright refusing to come into the office and the company having to make full time exceptions for roles that now are 100% remote. 4 people quit in the span of a month, leaving one person on the team.
Those guys did a terrible job with the environment, and for that I'm actually grateful. It made it all the easier for me and my team to look like absolute heroes when we made huge strides and fixed tonnes of tech debt, all while sitting around the country instead resentfully at the headquarters.
The company is now insisting on 3 days RTO for local people but haven't made a peep about anyone in i.t.
We kept having issues hiring local to our headquarters for specialized positions in i.t. and the MOMENT we opened it to remote, we had a massive influx of qualified and eager candidates and the positions were filled in 2 weeks.
It's REALLY hard for me to try and sympathize with these companies INSISTING remote work is worse when it keeps CONSISTENTLY and RELIABLY solving their problems.
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u/bigb9919 Aug 08 '23
We kept having issues hiring local to our headquarters for specialized positions in i.t.
In the last two years, I've had over twenty developers stop the interview as soon as I said "In office only". It's gotten to the point where I make the statement, then explicitly ask, "knowing that this is not a remote position, do you still wish to continue with this interview?". It saves so much time.
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Aug 07 '23
They want āfollow the leaderā type of employees, or those who need a break/time away from life at home.
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u/grey-s0n Aug 07 '23
I believe it's everyone's decision. Any company worth their salt should be thinking about how the employees want to work, not how the C-suite (who has zero idea of the team dynamics that will be effected) wants them to work. Not including the entire company in the decision to make a huge cultural shift like that shows the ones who made the call have no business being in that kind of role. Very poor leadership.
I quit my last job too for similar reason as yours. #highfive
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u/LigerXT5 Jack of All Trades, Master of None. Aug 07 '23
I live in a small town, big enough for a small IT shop. I'm hybrid WFH in the afternoons/evenings. If WFH was up and lost, I'd go back to Walmart. No joke. Cost of living around here is that bad, and rather not work in a city, while rather not be full WFH (personal choice, it's a social thing, I enjoy helping varying types of people in person, not so much the Printers though...).
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u/kinjiShibuya Aug 07 '23
The āinspired by Elonā part makes me think he wants people to quit. Itās cheaper, more efficient, and is a better look than massive layoffs.
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u/Affectionate_Ear_778 Aug 07 '23
Not only that. The best employees will leave, the worst will stay behind, and the midrange will need to pick up even more of the bad employees slack.
The majority of people applying to roles will not be of the caliber of those who left. If you want to attract better talent, youāll need to pay more.
Going back to office is so bad all around.
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u/mikemojc Aug 07 '23
The CEO probably doesnt yet appreciate how much of a Low Cost/High Value benefit WFH is. LACK of WFH costs;
- reduced talent pool
- increased salaries/fringe benefits to attract similar talent pool
- increased use of PTO
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u/Difficult_Resort5292 Aug 07 '23
You guys get a pool?
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u/cerberus-01 Aug 07 '23
Yeah, there's an Olympic-sized swimming pool up on the roof. Take the stairs over there.
please tell me someone gets this reference
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u/PrintShinji Aug 08 '23
You know its kinda sweet that the movie ends with them in a pool ontop of a roof.
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u/ApricotPenguin Professional Breaker of All Things Aug 07 '23
Here's the thing. That sounds good (and is probably accurate) to rational minds.
But companies are very talented at shooting themselves in the foot merely to save a buck now.
Simplest example is looking at how many places people consider themselves to be understaffed, yet you won't see too much change in headcount.
If your CEO also plans to leave in the next few years, the impacts of this decision won't even be felt while they're in office. It'll be the next guy/gal's problem.
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u/MrITBurns Aug 07 '23
Just ask him if he wants his business to be as profitable as twitter with a 60% loss of employees
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u/Sparcrypt Aug 08 '23
Mmm being inspired by business tactics that have lost someone billions of dollars in a very short time period is definitely an interesting choice...
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u/NetworkMachineBroke My fav protocol is NMFP Aug 07 '23
Or tell him to stop paying rent and see where that gets them.
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u/harrellj Aug 07 '23
If your CEO follows Fortune, maybe point out this article to him? So not only are you going to lose talent but you'll have a significantly harder time replacing that talent and that can have a knock-on affect of having more talent leaving. And as /u/signal_lost mentioned, you're not going to be recruiting from the top tier talent pool (but may have to pay them like they're top tier).
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u/dan-theman Windows Admin Aug 07 '23
I moved states after they reassured us that WFH was permanent. Luckily they timed a layoff with the forced return to the office and I got a severance package. NFW was I driving 2+ hours each way everyday. I probably never would have moved if I knew it was going to happen.
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u/Rahne64 Aug 07 '23
The problem we have always had is that, as a large company (30K+) the turnover count doesn't make HR blink an eye, but the quality of people turning over is horrible for those left. Losing key people with their skills and historical knowledge and having to replace them (many times with multiple headcount offshore) just isn't the same, even years later.
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u/anomalous_cowherd Pragmatic Sysadmin Aug 07 '23
Unfortunately to many in HR and senior management a warm body is a warm body. They don't understand why you should pay good experienced people more than unskilled teenagers, they only do it because otherwise they get zero applicants.
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u/wenestvedt timesheets, paper jams, and Solaris Aug 07 '23
the turnover count doesn't make HR blink an eye
It keeps them busy, they think it's fine!
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u/BachRodham Aug 07 '23
Tell him that hiring and training new people involves real cost to the business, and people WILL quit over this.
If he's getting management ideas from Elon and thinks he can create his own cult of dead-enders, this might actually encourage him.
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u/phantomtofu forged in the fires of helpdesk Aug 07 '23
Yeah, I think some of these WFO mandates are layoffs in disguise.
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u/SAugsburger Aug 07 '23
Definitely. Based upon how many companies announced layoffs in the following quarter I suspect that even those that are willing to accept going back to the office may find themselves out of job in the next 120-160 days. I suspect that some layoffs are already in the planning stages they're just hoping that increasing churn reduces the number of layoff decisions managers need to make and in addition any bad PR by how many people they will fire.
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u/jmbre11 Aug 07 '23
That probability what heās hoping for layoffs without unemployment
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u/KadahCoba IT Manager Aug 07 '23
Can almost be guaranteed that at least some his competition is offering full WFH for similar or better pay and benifits. He's just massively lowered the inertia required for a lot of people to start looking, and has possibly more so in other areas since if he is being a dick here, he's likely been so in other ways recently.
You can be an asshole up to a point and people won't leave, but either one big last thing, or just an accumulation of a lot of small things plus opportunity, can quickly lead loosing somebody that'll take 2-5 people to replace. And each for more than what it would have cost to keep the old employee, but ya had to be the big man in the negotiation and not give a whole 5 extra dollars an hour to keep them. Also the new people aren't going to put up with the decades of bs and the attrition will be high for the next several years till you randomly hire another person that's willing to put up with all the stupid shit for 20+ years.
Totally not speaking from experience.... >_>;
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u/syshum Aug 07 '23
In most instances they will only react when people actually start quitting, and probably not even then since it likely will not be a mass exodus, but 1 or 2 people over weeks / months, most of which either will not provide feedback at all when leaving or provide generic responses as that is what most people are advised to do in exit interviews.
It very likely could be the goal to get people to quit, so they do not have layoff people and do WARN notifications (or the legal equivalent in what ever nation / local they are in)
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u/randalzy Aug 07 '23
The modification of the work conditions (such as salary, office location, etc) is, in Spain, one of the cases in which you can reject the change and quit with a 20-days/year and right to unemployment compensation.
If done to a number large enough of people, can be considered a way to hide a massive layoff, and then the company is forced to use the massive layoffs procedure, that includes (often) better compensation negotiated by worker's representatives.
And ours is one of the not-that-great work legislation in Europe.
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u/SAugsburger Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
This. Unless your company is paying F you type wages you will see a significant uptick in turnover and it will be considerably harder to replace them with comparable employees unless the company is willing to pay considerably higher wages than companies that offer more generous WFH options. I think one failed assumption on the CEO's part is that while there are a decent number of people that want to work for SpaceX or Tesla even if it means being regularly in the office or even making slightly less than what they could earn elsewhere, but I wager that there isn't a similar following for OP's company nor their CEO. If your CEO doesn't have millions of followers on social media you can't assume that you will have similar results.
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u/screech_owl_kachina Do you have a ticket? Aug 07 '23
That might even be the point of the initiative. Basically a constructive dismissal to reduce headcount without it being a layoff as such
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u/grumpy_tech_user Aug 07 '23
My last job canceled work from home and the entire marketing department quit within two weeks including the VP. They had it rough
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u/thelug_1 Aug 07 '23
and the nimrod will get a bonus for cutting costs
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u/JohnClark13 Aug 08 '23
And then he'll ditch the place before the consequences can affect him
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u/Acrobatic-Thanks-332 Aug 08 '23
No they won't... It costs money to recruit. Even if they only staff half the department, that would cost more than if nobody had quit.
The nimrod got burned in this scenario.
Unless that was his strategy for getting rid of the entire marketing department without any replacements.... Doubtful
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u/dollhousemassacre Aug 07 '23
This seems like a Resume Producing Event. I see no way to fight this.
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u/spuckthew Aug 07 '23
This. My CEO forced us all back with 1 week's notice. He's pretty much just a power tripping dinosaur and none of the executive staff have the balls to challenge him because he has a history of firing execs who disagree with him.
The real kicker is I joined this company only a few months ago and turned down two other offers for it, but I'm currently in the late stages interviewing at a couple other places so hopefully one of those works out.
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u/lonewanderer812 Aug 07 '23
Yeah I was hired on as a hybrid worker. I come in 2 days a week to the office. I haven't had to go into an office 5 days a week since 2018. A month ago our CEO said everyone within an hours driving distance of work must come in 5 days a week starting next month. Fuck that. Of course I didn't sign anything when I started work here almost 3 years ago... it was just agreed upon that I'd come in twice a week. I'm on my way out.
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u/remainderrejoinder Aug 07 '23
Isn't your drive an hour and 15 minutes? (After you stop at Wendy's)
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u/dagamore12 Aug 08 '23
or waffle house if in the south and need to add more time then a drive through?
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u/plazman30 sudo rm -rf / Aug 07 '23
We're having a similar battle here. Prior to the pandemic I was 100% WFH for over 5 years, and we were all actively encouraged to WFH as much as possible.
At the end of 2021 they told us the "new normal" would be in the office 2-3 days A MONTH.
Then in mid 2022 they reopened offices and said we need to be in 2 days a week. Well, a lot of people moved, canceled child care and made other decisions based on 2-3 days a month.
So we had a ton of people quit. We had meeting where they asked us how to "stop the bleed." We told them that we need to go back to the pre-pandemic WFH policy if you want to "stop the bleed," and they told us that was not an option. Trying explain to upper management that that is the ONLY thing people care about falls on deaf ears.
So, now we have people coming in 2 days a week and they're leaving at lunch time and working from home in the afternoon.
Just tell them:
- People will quit
- You will get less work per day out of people. They won't take that call at 4:45 when they're in the office. They'll be packing up to make sure they're ready to bolt at 5:00 PM.
- If you're in an urban area, then people are dependent on bus and rail schedules and that will dictate how long they hang around.
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Aug 07 '23
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u/EndUserNerd Aug 07 '23
Well, if the CEO has gone full-on Elon, he'll just cite what's been done...Elon went in and fired everyone at Twitter who wasn't willing to work in the office and work insane hours...basically he killed everyone who wasn't 100% loyal to him and his teachings. I think they're down to like 10% of the staff they had previously.
The place I'm at has been pretty lenient about WFH, but even they recently put their foot down and said 3 days a week after Labor Day. Still debating whether to quit, because the job is great otherwise.
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Aug 07 '23
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u/hollowkatt Aug 07 '23
I'd argue anyone sheeping musk like that is already in full-on fucking idiot mode.
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u/EvadesBans Aug 07 '23
First sensible comment in the thread. Once a boss or C-level mentions Elon positively, it's time to fucking go, not try and fix it. It's already too late.
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u/awkwardnetadmin Aug 07 '23
Even Elon has admitted that the company formerly known as Twitter is worth not only less than he paid for it, but much lower than it was before he announced intention to buy it. Even ignoring that I think Twitter is a bad comparison. Does the CEO have tens of millions of followers on social media and a cult like following of potential replacement hires for anybody that quits? I suspect the answer is no so comparisons to Musk are probably not really that great.
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u/The_Wkwied Aug 07 '23
Elon went in and fired everyone at Twitter who wasn't willing to work in the office and work insane hours
Yes, fired without cause - and had to end up paying unemployment for all of them, too.
Tell your CEO, look at Elon. Note what Elon does. See the decisions he makes... Now, if you want to ensure your business is a success, do the exact opposite of what Elon does
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u/Technical_Rub Aug 07 '23
Start working on your escape plan. You won't change his mind and it's not worth the stress of trying to single handedly hold back the dam of stupid ideas.
-I worked for healthcare provider that moved to work from home ahead of the industry. We were able to improve recruitment of hard to find Specialist Doctors and Nurse practitioners and increase client satisfaction. New management came in, didn't care, gutted remote work. Customer satisfaction tanked, productivity tanked, and doctors quit and couldn't be replaced. They still declared victory and called themselves visionaries.
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u/bluegrassgazer Aug 07 '23
I also work for a healthcare company that did this so they could consolidate all of their office workers into buildings they actually own instead of the ones they lease, let the leases run out and did not renew those, stabilized budget THEN COVID hit. We already knew how to send people home, so we did it on a much bigger scale and haven't forced anyone but leadership to return to the offices, and even then it's a hybrid model. Financially we are sitting pretty and turnover is down.
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u/L0pkmnj Aug 07 '23
Start working on your escape plan
And tell your immediate team to do so as well. One person leaving is meh. Multiple people leaving around the same time and saying they've moved to a WFH role, however.....?
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u/BachRodham Aug 07 '23
How would you all react to this?
The larger issue is your CEO getting management ideas from what Elon Musk does, so I'd start looking for a new job.
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u/121PB4Y2 Good with computers Aug 07 '23
The larger issue is your CEO getting management ideas from what Elon Musk does, so I'd start looking for a new job.
Before he walks in holding a piece of bathroom furniture and yells "LET THAT SINK IN"
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u/TheLoneTechGuy Aug 07 '23
That is also quite a concern to me š£
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u/BachRodham Aug 07 '23
It's also the issue that, even if you end up not losing WFH through your efforts here, is going to result in even more stepping rakes being thrown down in front of you.
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u/RevLoveJoy Aug 07 '23
That is the perfect phrase for exactly what this is. Things are running, stuff's getting done, metrics are good, someone throws you a live hand grenade.
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u/ChompsnRosie Aug 07 '23
Challenge him to a cage fight, see how inspirational he finds him then.
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u/EvaluatorOfConflicts Aug 07 '23
CEO will accept then have his mom email OP to call it off.
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u/fatalicus Sysadmin Aug 07 '23
Make sure to mention that Elon Musks leader style brought the value of a $44 billion company down to $15 billion in less than a year.
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u/system32update Aug 07 '23
Yeah, I would also start looking for a new jobā¦ Put these people in their place with these stupid decision making that goes on and then also the copycat decision making that seems to be a trend nowā¦ Just because someone has money doesnāt mean that their decisions are great.
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u/DeadOnToilet Infrastructure Architect Aug 07 '23
When my previous employer cancelled work from home the entire IT team quit. No notice resignations. The policy was rescinded within a day and retention bonuses paid to get people back but the brain drain ended up ruining the company.
500 employee workforce and the company went under. Itās shutting down at the end of this calendar year.
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u/No_Investigator3369 Aug 07 '23
Shit is going to burn hard in a fire soon.
Take AT&T St. Louis building. Bag holders tried to auction it for $200m. They got $4m.
Your CEO's rich friends and risky hedge fund portfolios are getting decimated right now and they are all colluding to make sure all the securitized bullshit they bought and invested in does not go to $0.
The reckoning is going to be so glamorous. Some companies will be forced to WFH because they had to walk away from their obligation to save money. This is just the last ditch effort which is clearly turning into the sound of a death rattle.
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u/Jayandnightasmr Aug 08 '23
Yep they're scared as they gambled their wealth on inflating property values and are now losing out
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u/StruanT Aug 08 '23
I wouldn't call systematically eliminating all their best employees "knowing what they are doing". Every time one of our customers insists on forcing a return to office, they lose all the most competent employees for no good reason. Who do they think is going to leave immediately other the people who can most easily find other work? All the most qualified people that understand their business well enough to know a hilariously bad business decision when they see it, and they know exactly what is happening. Only the people that are not paying attention and just coasting through their job are going to stick around to be forced back in. It ought to be obvious to everyone paying attention that in-office is a career dead-end.
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Aug 07 '23
It's the CEO's business. If he wants to pull everyone back to the office, he can pull everyone back to the office.
It's fuck around and find out territory, though, because soon he won't have much of a business when all his people leave via mass exodus.
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u/enigmo666 SeƱor Sysadmin Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
I worked IT for a retailer over a chunk of COVID. We were expected to be on prem 2-3 days a week, we managed to turn up two days and just forget about the third. Two things happened in quick succession:
We were told WFH in general was 'at risk'. We were going to be pushed to do 4 days a week in office 'soon', and back to full-time was likely.
I was in the office one day and heard some mindless sprite from HR giggling her chirpy little head off about how it was 'so weird' being back in the office. She was in for that one day only and 'hadn't been in the office in over 18months', that she wasn't going to be back in any time soon, like at all, and that legal and most of finance were doing the same.
I found another job and quit.
No kidding, in one of several departure meetings my manager told me 'not many jobs' advertised were offering hybrid, let alone fully WFH. I told him not all jobs can do either of those things; you can't stack shelves from home, but you can reboot a server, and IT vacancies were most definitely increasingly offering hybrid. He then told me very matter-of-factly retail was an on-prem business. I told him I didn't work in retail, I work in IT. I don't think he understood until that point the complete difference in philosophies between him and me.
So, my advice, like so many others, would be to polish that CV and just leave. Life is too short to deal with the idiocy of anyone like that. Close the book and roll the dice on a new place. There are plenty places that would be interested in the kind of remote worker support experience you could bring.
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u/thespieler11 Aug 07 '23 edited Sep 24 '24
spoon edge nutty handle smile direction ink overconfident grey nine
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/IntimidatingPenguin Aug 07 '23
Compile a detailed report on how much money is saved by WFH as well as the benefits and present it him or the board.
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u/TheLoneTechGuy Aug 07 '23
That sounds more reasonable than what I was thinking about.
I work in the 50-80 hours a week range, and was going to make the argument that if WFH was removed I would simply just do my 37,5 hours a week and no more.
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u/Jeeper08JK Aug 07 '23
>I work in the 50-80 hours a week range, and was going to make the argument that if WFH was removed I would simply just do my 37,5 hours a week and no more.
Maybe should do that anyway? Family wont remember that you worked 50-80hrs a week, only that you were always busy. And your employer has shown they don't care.
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u/thecravenone Infosec Aug 07 '23
I would simply just do my 37,5 hours a week and no more
You should do that regardless
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u/gorramfrakker IT Manager Aug 07 '23
Why are you working that much? Lead by example, my dude, and balance that work/life.
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u/Popular-Objective-24 Aug 07 '23
50-80 hours is simply rediculous regardless of whether it's WFH or not. I'd be looking elsewheres
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u/IntimidatingPenguin Aug 07 '23
As long as the work gets done I donāt think it matters if my employees worked from home.
How old is your CEO that thinks he can run things like musk? Lol
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u/EndUserNerd Aug 07 '23
Fully grown CEOs also worship Musk and his sigma grindset hustle crowd. It's just a personality cult - they think that if they act like these guys they'll be billionaires too.
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u/ajscott That wasn't supposed to happen. Aug 07 '23
Ask if they want their company profit timeline to match Twitter's too.
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u/AppIdentityGuy Aug 07 '23
Also ask whether this applies to him....
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u/TheLoneTechGuy Aug 07 '23
Well we run a pretty tight time management system, so it would be hard for him to hide if it didnāt
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u/Frothyleet Aug 07 '23
Do other people see the CEO's timecards?
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u/ApricotPenguin Professional Breaker of All Things Aug 07 '23
More importantly, is anyone able to implement penalties on the CEO for not following through himself?
Because if not, it doesn't matter too much.
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u/Stonewalled9999 Aug 07 '23
his home probably is listed as "corporate real estate" for tax purposes.
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u/TheMangusKhan Aug 07 '23
Just wait until thereās a system outage and your admins are stuck in traffic in a 2 hour commute. Itās happened to me more than once. I no longer get questioned about why I only come in once a week.
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u/CantaloupeCamper Jack of All Trades Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
Iād respectfully state my case.
And without telling them start job hunting asap.
They may be set on this path / not interested in feedback. If Musk is their idolā¦ time to move on, they donāt care.
If for some reason, it turns out they do care then you stop looking.
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u/No_Bit_1456 Jack of All Trades Aug 07 '23
If your CEO wants to do this, there's not a lot of ways you can change his mind other than numbers. If you fail in this though, be ready to look for a new job since now you've officially made an enemy of the CEO. A lot of businesses see WFH as bad due to they see losing productivity. It's not always true. A lot of the middle management justify their job basically in an office setting. This is basically nothing more than a political thing.
I just talked to a recruiter today that said everything is moving back to hybird. It's all people wanting to show up till such and such, then its remote X amount of the days per week. In my eyes, its just politics. We've proven it can be done from home, so why not? Hell, imagine how much fuel we save each year alone.
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u/os2mac Aug 07 '23
if you are not going to allow ANY work from home. have all your subordinates uninstall any company apps from personal phones, and instruct them not to bring home any work related equipment (no phones, laptops, tablets etc). see how long the ban stays in effect.
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u/Fizgriz Net & Sys Admin Aug 07 '23
Dust off that resume. Id play along until I got a new job. Don't quit until you got a new place lined up, but don't put anymore loyalty back into this company.
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u/Due_Bass7191 Aug 07 '23
but when OP does quit, OP needs to state exactly what drove OP to dust off the resume.
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u/scubafork Telecom Aug 07 '23
I know that suggesting you should leave is the most common answer here, but if your CEO is inspired by Elon Musk...that's a siren blaring, klaxons firing warning to GTFO.
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u/nycola Aug 07 '23
1.) I spent a long time building a very quality team in my department and having a quality team means give and take.
2.) I trust my team to get their work done from home and because they no longer have to commute, they actually put in more hours.
3.) If you insist this policy be implemented I can tell you there will not only be pushback, but there will definitely also be resignations. A truly skilled/good employee knows they can get a better job when the job they have is no longer "good".
4.) If he insists, tell your team, apologize to them, and offer to provide them with a reference should they choose to take another job.
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u/RCTID1975 IT Manager Aug 07 '23
How would you all react to this?
If WFH is important to you, just find a new job.
You're unlikely to win this battle, and if you do, there'll be animosity.
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u/FatalDiVide Aug 07 '23
I experienced this first hand. The aftermath was a slew of new employees that didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Productivity and efficiency were cut in half. Quality suffered egregiously over a two year period. Sales went way down and rework and service work went way up. It cost the company tens of millions in profits. Nearly three years later their solution is still to fire the squeaky wheels and get new wheels about every three months. If things continue the company will go under by the end of 2025.
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u/lenajlch Aug 08 '23
Yeah... if your CEO is taking inspiration from Musk you should find a new job.
Everyone else will when this policy goes into effect anyway.
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u/Vargenwulf Aug 07 '23
Scene opens
Ceo: Elon Musk inspired me. Work from home ruins office culture and lowers productivity. We must embrace our office culture and increase the hours we put in if we want to move to the next level.
The directors at the table all mumble in agreement with one exception at the opposite of the table.
Ceo: ITDirector? You are being fairly quiet. Do you have something to add to my ideas?
It Director: ...
Ceo: Speak up man. We are a tech company and your people are key for this.
It director: You are as dumb as a box of rocks.
Ceo shows his Pikachu face.
It director goes on: You want to take our overworked and underpaid IT team that has tripled productivity numbers since WFH was instituted. Make them spend 3 hours each day commuting because you can't pay enough for them to afford housing near the office and expect what? Higher KPI's?
Ceo: I don't think th..
Interrupts CEO: You are correct. You aren't thinking. If you do this the best of your team will move on to a company that WILL offer them flexible and WFH hours. The rest may or may not leave but a large portion of the day where they are currently available will be spent driving and make them unreachable. They too will also jump ship at a moment's notice if it means not being stuck behind the wheel so long each day.
Ceo: That is called trimming the fat! You will be able to hire and train the bes.
IT Director: No. It takes months for one of us to get up to speed. It also takes someone with that knowledge to train them.
Ceo: I have every faith in you!
It director: Why? I won't be here if you do this. I most certainly will not stick around for the destruction of the team I worked so hard to build because you have a crush on Elon Musk and some dream of a full office that we have proven is a dinosaur. I am an IT director and this isn't Jurassic park.
Ceo: Jurassic park? WTF does Jurassic park have to do with anything?
It Director: Ever see it? The IT director dies very badly because of the arrogance and stupidity of the CEO. I'm not dying for you.
----------------------
Sorry. Was bored and felt like venting.
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u/joeyfine Aug 07 '23
There are two ways to go with this.
1 - tell your people its coming from the top and you tried but its time to put those pants and shoes on and head back to work.
2 - fight harder and piss off your boss. He wont relent and you will lose staff (maybe depending on location) and then either you will quit or your whole team will.
The WFH people are starting to see the happiness window we have is closing. Back to office is the worst.
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u/DayFinancial8206 Systems Engineer Aug 07 '23
I've been able to avoid going back in by making sure I live far away from where I work, that way when they do kneejerk policy changes like this, it's not really feasible
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u/jeo123 Aug 08 '23
I go back and forth on WFH.
I've got 15+ years of experience at this point. I can do what I want and could work from home even before covid. You can't tell me I can't do that because you won't accept the fact that I'm at home as a reason for me not to handle an issue. You want that maintenance handled off hours? I'm not doing it in the office on a saturday, and now that we established I'm able to work from home when it's convienent for you, let's establish that I'm also going to do it when it's convenient for me.
Case closed.
That said, the new batch of employees are missing out by not meeting people. There is a noticable loss of unintentional training and productivity that disappears when no one's in the office. Many of my biggest claims to fame at my company were projects where I heard coworkers complaining about a process and knew I could set them up with a better solution via a system solution.
But when I don't hear what's bothering them, I don't know what the pain points are, and when they don't know the system side, they don't know how things could be better and will often just accept "this is the way it has to be."
Yeah, in theory the development of some form of review system where people could complain about things might work, but let's be real, if people were given a ticket system where they would just complain about things they don't like about their job, it would be a flood of meaningless things.
Those interactions are lost when everyone is work from home. You can't "overhear" when people message each other on MS Teams for example. That means the only way new initiatives happen is when someone goes up the chain high enough for an out of touch manager to try to push a project down.
The organic "here's a quick macro to save you 5 hours of work" items are lost when everyone is WFH.
That said if you tried to tell me I had to be in the office every day for a fixed schedule, I'd laugh as I started updating my resume... so I don't know the right answer.
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u/IndianaNetworkAdmin Aug 07 '23
he got inspired by Elon Musk
He was inspired by the man who demolished a household name and its affiliated value for his own narcissistic validation?
Yikes.
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u/Tech4dayz Aug 07 '23
The same way I'm reacting to it now, looking for a new job and coming up empty then dragging my ass to work, screaming in traffic for at least an hour a day, and contemplating just living in the woods because it's only going to get worse.
This is a coordinated attack on the working class, C levels have been frothing at the mouth since the end of the pandemic to put asses in seats in a dead office building everyone hates to be at in order to protect their investments in commercial buildings. They've been publishing all the fake data they need to justify it too, go to a site like business insider or wall street journal and you'll quickly notice that on a damn near daily basis they will publish some kind of story about WFH, over employment, lazy employees, etc etc. All in the name of the all mighty dollar.
Get used to the idea of company towns because we did a turn on the metaphorical highway of progress just for a few bucks that went right into your CEO's pocket.
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u/elatllat Aug 07 '23 edited Aug 07 '23
Also the no-wfh was to execStaff not IT/eng/etc ;
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/06/01/11/58542191-10874471-image-a-13_1654079178522.jpg
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u/BamCub Aug 07 '23
As an employee, you will have my resignation on the first day of mandatory office hours.
As a team lead, I see the value with in person knowledge sharing and collaboration, you will have my resignation on the first day of mandatory office hours.
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u/Solkre was Sr. Sysadmin, now Storage Admin Aug 07 '23
How would you all react to this?
If I worked for a CEO inspired by Elon Musk, I'd fire up the resume.
If I worked for a CEO killing WFH, I'd fire up the resume.
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u/Scout288 Aug 07 '23
I was told I had to come back into the office and will now be taking 10 years of experience with me into my new job. The most experienced & talented workers I know want flexibility even more than compensation as the compensation in the tech space is already high for senior level positions. I genuinely would have accepted a 20% pay cut before accepting a prison sentence in their windowless dungeon of an office space.
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u/put_VLAN_in_my_Trunk Aug 08 '23
My productivity at home is astronomically higher than in a loud office, where you spend 2 hours a day commuting and lose motivation to work after 2 pm because youāre tried. Is productivity according to them really that much better when folks are in the office?? Am I the only person whoās not productive in an office? š
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u/doctorevil30564 No more Mr. Nice BOFH Aug 08 '23
Your CEO sounds like the same Genius we had at a past job that decided to make the IT department members company wide at all locations take unpaid days off from work as a cost saving measure. He didn't take into account that some locations only had one IT person on-site. I was the only person at my location. I was being told I needed to take two weeks worth of unpaid time off a day at a time until I used all of my unpaid days. I was expected to be in the office 5 days a week with constant calls to my extension and new tickets to work on every day. We were supposed to get other team members from other sites to cover our tickets when we did manage to get permission to take those unpaid days off. I was coming up on the end of our allowed time to take the unpaid days off and finally convinced management to let me take 4 work days off around labor day. I was off the Thursday and Friday before labor day weekend, and Tuesday and Wednesday the following week as labor day was a paid day off. No work was done, I switched my company phone off and left it at home and headed out of town to attend Dragon Con. I didn't take a computer with me to check emails, and I enjoyed my unpaid vacation. I arrived back at work the following Thursday, over 100 tickets in the queue because the other IT team members couldn't be bothered to assist me as requested, and over 50 voicemails. I get chewed out and wrote up over the issue and was let go at the beginning of December after being told that it was determined that I was unsuited to performe the job that I had been performing for the last 4.5 years by some higher up stuffed shirt that I had never ever had any interactions with prior. All that just to save money and unreasonable expectations that people would work while not being paid to work.
SMH........
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u/dcdiagfix Aug 07 '23
leave. not because of the wfh but because itās only acceptable after putting in 45 hours.
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u/DrapedInVelvet Aug 07 '23
My first step would be have a meeting with the team setup a way to give anonymous feedback to you about WFH going away.
I'd probably have a 3 question survey with these questions (or similar):
With the new WFH policy, will you:
A) Never step foot in the office and quit immediately
B) Come to the new office but plan to leave as soon as a new position is found
C) Excited to be in the office again.
I am willing to bet that you will get an overwhelming response as B with no C.
From that, I would reach out to HR and ask them for the cost of recruiting and training X number of new hires (A+B).
You should also point out that an exodus from your department will lead to burnout of those who stay, more incidents, longer SLA times, etc.
The problem is, of course, is that I'd almost guarantee you that ending WFH is a more of a plan to cut down headcount without paying unemployment or severance.
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u/EvaluatorOfConflicts Aug 07 '23
HR may not be helpful to fight a company decision, and These numbers are already out there.
The Society for Human Resource Management (SHRM) reported that on average it costs a company 6 to 9 months of an employee's salary to replace him or her. For an employee making $60,000 per year, that comes out to $30,000 - $45,000 in recruiting and training costs
https://www.enrich.org/blog/The-true-cost-of-employee-turnover-financial-wellness-enrich
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u/Sad_Confidence8941 Aug 07 '23
You could also mention that Elon only applied this rule to executives, and he said that people need to see leadershipās face around the factory floor for engagement purposes
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u/jasongodev Aug 07 '23
If you don't have a union organization you don't stand a chance. Top management always win except when union strikes.
You want to convince your boss? How charismatic are you compared to Elon? Stats, science? Top management won't listen unless it's about money, buzzword, new shiny object,or charismatic fandom.
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u/ScepticalProphet Aug 08 '23
"Why is productivity still dropping? We enforced RTO and now have only our 30% lowest performers."
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u/r0ndr4s Aug 08 '23
A guy I work with just straight up said, you want me there i dont need to be, I can just leave and good luck finding someone. He is WFH still.
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u/kickingtyres Aug 08 '23
I'm waiting for this.
I've been remote with various companies for about 14 years now, and joined my current place mid-pandemic so had to be remote despite the company traditionally being office-based.
The CEO who took me on was keen to move the company to a remote working structure and it has certainly stayed that way since then.
However he has since left as part of a takeover at the end of last year and we've gone from being a 300 staff tech company to 10,000 staff corporate.
There are noises from some departments to start working more from the office, but not quite full office based yet.
But for me, none of the team I manage are even in the same country as me. Neither is my boss, nor most of my peers, so if I did have to go into the office, I'd still be sat, working on my own, and using teams for all communication so would pointless, not least the Ā£6000 a year train ticket I don't currently need to fork out for.
So yes if they start to enforce office working, I will be going and I'll be making that clear if the announcement is made,
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u/Space-Boy button pressing cowboy IV Aug 07 '23
hope you have your three letters ready. I have not seen rto go well, especially for IT/tech
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u/abyssea Director Aug 07 '23
How would you all react to this?
Update your resume, you work for an idiot.
The HR costs of onboarding and offboarding are going to be monumental. Hope he realizes that. Also, 45 hours a week? US full time is 40 hours max a week.
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u/vmBob Aug 07 '23
Who on earth thinks Elon Musk's management style should be a goal at this point? Has he seen what he's done to ShitterX?
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u/Asimenia_Aspida Aug 07 '23
If only there was some sort of organization composed of IT workers that could fight for the rights of ALL IT workers (at least in the USA) that would be perfect for a situation like this.
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u/nubi78 Aug 08 '23
My company seems to be signaling rougher times ahead. Out of the blue they basically said everyone needs to be back in the office by September.
I work in a job where travel is a big part of my job but when not on the road there is absolutely zero reasons to work in my office. The lab I support is in a different building of which I go in there perhaps once every other week for an hour tops. Hereās the key. I get paid for when shit hits the fan. When all is good the end customer doesnāt give a shit what I am doing but when things break Iām on the road like right now. Iām basically 100% funded all year too so my time is paid so literally there should be no reason at all to go in.
The worst part is there is there is not 40 hours of work when not on the road but the customer does not careā¦. They want their shit fixed ASAP when it goes down.
Well now Iām likely going to go sit in the office listening to bullshit coworker stories all day eating shitty food and trying to look busy.
Hereās the key. I think Iām in a unique jobā¦. I think there are a huge number of people who work remotely that have things to do 8 hours a day and just donāt work. Those people probably should go back in the office. What pisses me off above all is instead of management just saying: āhey some of you lazy fucks need to come in to the office to be supervised because you donāt do anything all dayā. it is spun as collaboration. Listen I donāt give a fuck about collaboratingā¦. My job is to get critical shit back onlineā¦ So maybe the ultimate goal is to get rid of the piece of shit workers who are gaming the system. I get that but it is really really really disheartening since weāve gone this far working from home.
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u/UCFknight2016 Windows Admin Aug 07 '23
I quit a job that made everyone come back in the office. Most people ignored it but then we got told if we would lose our jobs. I was the third person to quit in three weeks.
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u/showard01 Banyan Vines Will Rise Again Aug 07 '23
Awesome. So will your CEO be lighting half the firmās revenue on fire or publicly mocking a disabled employee next?
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u/Agile_Seer Systems Engineer Aug 07 '23
Make sure your offboarding process is functioning, because it's about to get a stress test.