r/politics • u/Dustypigjut Oregon • Nov 27 '24

Elon Musk publicized the names of government employees he wants to cut. It’s terrifying federal workers Soft Paywall

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/27/business/elon-musk-government-employees-targets/index.html

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I think you don't know what either word means if you use socialism - when workers own the economy - interchangeably with communism - a moneyless, classless, stateless system which has never yet existed in history

The older I get the more convinced I become that if any "perfect" system exists it's probably some blend of socialism/capitalism/communism IE:

Socialism for essentials such as housing/food/medicine

Capitalism for luxury goods and non essential industries, but still heavily regulated to prevent monopolies & cronyism

Communism on a local level as in literal communes where the goal is to be as self sufficient as possible by growing foods and crafting & generally working together to lower the environmental impact of living

Communism has never truly existed on a large scale despite all the countries that have called themselves communist, but actual self sustaining communes are probably the closest example and if we could scale them up to create more sustainable cities it would bring a lot of benefits.

It's also no coincidence that many of the EU countries with the highest standards of living have adopted a lot of socialist policies when it comes to essentials like food/housing/medicine, and inversely many of the places with the lowest QOL metrics are deregulated capitalist hellscapes that are closer to modern feudalism than anything.

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u/bigbjarne Foreign Nov 28 '24

How does that look like? Socialism and capitalism is about ownership of the means of production.

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u/Musiclover4200 Nov 28 '24

How does that look like?

Plenty of thriving EU democratic countries with a healthier mix of capitalism and socialism.

For communism look at rural villages or like I said literal communes where the focus is on community & taking care of everyone instead of making money. It's definitely gotten less common but that's how a lot of the world survived (to varying degrees) pre capitalism.

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u/bigbjarne Foreign Nov 28 '24

I'm from Finland. All European countries are capitalist with social programs. That means that the capitalist class owns the means of production but some parts of the economy is in the hand of the state, which is not in the hands of the workers. Therefore, we live in capitalism. Socialism is when the workers own the means of production.

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u/Musiclover4200 Nov 28 '24

Sure but the point I was making is the "perfect" system is likely a blend of all 3 or something else altogether, and there's a lot of middle ground between capitalism/socialism/communism despite a lot of people viewing them as black & white with no overlap.

You can find examples of all 3 in most countries to at least some extent from the most capitalist to socialist parts of the world. But we haven't yet seen true communism on a larger scale as it's mostly been limited to literal communes or small settlements with most "communist" countries being more classic dictatorships.

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u/bigbjarne Foreign Nov 28 '24

Yes but what does that actually mean? Does it mean that half of the means of production is owned by the workers and the other by the capitlalists?

But we haven't yet seen true communism on a larger scale as it's mostly been limited to literal communes or small settlements with most "communist" countries being more classic dictatorships.

Marx called it primitive communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_communism#

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u/Musiclover4200 Nov 28 '24

Yes but what does that actually mean? Does it mean that half of the means of production is owned by the workers and the other by the capitlalists?

Like I said in the OP essentials like food/housing/healthcare should be fully socialist, non essentials like luxury industries can remain capitalist but with heavy oversight/regulations to prevent monopolies or other issues. And cities/communities should adapt more "communist" policies where people work together to be as self sufficient/efficient as possible to reduce the environmental impact.

Maybe not 50/50 but I think of it like the food pyramid with socialism on the top, capitalism in the middle, and communism on the bottom at local levels.

How that would be best implemented is another discussion but some of the more social democracy EU countries seem like they're heading in the right direction while the more capitalist countries have been regressing towards neo feudalism.

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u/bigbjarne Foreign Nov 28 '24 edited Nov 29 '24

So basically modern social democracy which is capitalism with safety nets? Except that's not how social democracies work in reality but that's essentially what you argue for?

they're heading in the right direction

What do you mean?

capitalist countries have been regressing towards neo feudalism.

What's the difference?