Got a performance rating of Exceeds Expectations. My boss requested a significant salary adjustment and I was denied and given the standard 2.5%. Should I quit my job?

[u/FapForYourLife]

I was originally promoted within my company to create a new department about 1.5 years ago. I’ve since worked my ass off and spent the last year doing managerial level work for non-managerial pay ($47k).

I initially accepted this offer as it was in line with my experience at the time but I’ve now shown that my capabilities go far beyond what was originally expected of me. My market value is between $60-75k based on the title I should have.

My boss agreed with this and requested a large pay bump prior to my review. He was denied and told I’d receive the standard 2.5% that everyone else got and could renegotiate in 6 months.

The problem with this is that I was told the same thing the last time I requested a raise and it was never followed up.

I’ve set up a meeting to ask what specific goals and milestones are in place for this 6 month period.

Are they saying to renegotiate in 6 months because raises were already budgeted for review time, or are they just trying to pay me as little as possible.

Worth noting that I love my job - I self manage with hardly any supervision as I chat with my boss every Friday about what’s going on. Should I just leave now or wait until I discuss why my salary adjustment was denied with the CEO?

Edit: I don’t plan to quit without receiving an offer from another company - just asking if it’s worth negotiating with my current employer or if I should just take more money somewhere else.

Edit 2: Holy hell I only expected to get 5-10 responses. Thanks everyone for the help!

Current plan is to discuss why this happened and to also shop around for other jobs. Probably won’t use an offer as leverage although I’ve seen others here do so successfully. Cheers, all.

[u/ApostleO]

Don't just quit, but perhaps start applying elsewhere and doing interviews, see if you get a better offer.

[u/FapForYourLife → u/ApostleO]

Sorry, should have phrased it better. I’ll edit the post - I don’t plan to quit without an offer

[u/dr_gonzo → u/FapForYourLife]

I worked with an really awesome negotiation coach for a while, and he was big on this idea: don't use leverage to negotiate.

Another job offer is leverage. "Give me the raise or I walk." The reason you don't want to negotiate like this is people will remember the time you had them over the barrel, and they'll be looking to do the same thing to you next time. You're not building a relationship based on trust and respect.

It sound like you have is that you've tried to have these conversations the right way, for more than year. You've been patient, and it sounds like your current company has bureaucracy in place to prevent managers from having the flexibility on raises. When you challenge that bureaucracy, what's going to happen? Even if it works, it will definitely rile up the people above the food chain from your manager, who don't know shit about you. So you get your raise, but then what?

Usually I'm a big fan in these cases of "treat your boss(es) respectfully and be transparent". I think you've done that though, OP. If I were you'd I'd be updating my resume, and reaching out to my network to see what else is out there.

[u/FapForYourLife → u/dr_gonzo]

That’s what I’m planning - I’ll still hear them out as to why I was denied but will go elsewhere ASAP. My boss is great and he already says things like “keep doing what you’re doing, even if it isn’t being rewarded here it’ll look good somewhere else”

He gets it, he’s been on my side the whole time and understands my frustrations. Probably the only person here I’d want to stay in touch with.

[u/dr_gonzo → u/FapForYourLife]

It sounds like your boss is in a tough spot on this too. He's probably had conversations to the effect of "This guy/gal is underpaid, essential to our operations, and we're going to lose them because we're too stupid to pay them market value." He fought that battle and lost, that's surely aggravating for him.

And what's worse, now he has to be the one to justify & explain that decision to you, and keep you motivated in spite of it! That's the kind of shit that makes managers quit.

I would definitely stay in touch with your boss. FWIW, my old boss from way back in the day is now my business partner. We had a kerfluffle with management at our old company back in the day - he went to bat for me on a new job role I didn't get. The reasons I didn't get it were specious, and both of us were really pissed off. That incident was a catalyzing moment that lead a year or two later to us striking out on our own.

People's allegiances are much stronger to individuals than companies. So yeah, keep treating that boss with respect the way he's done you, even as you move on. Who knows where you'll next cross paths.

[u/littlezul → u/dr_gonzo]

He fought that battle and lost, that's surely aggravating for him.

It was a frustration for me when I was in management. Argued pay for two+ years for one team member. One of the reasons I left even though I was treated well.

[u/last_rights → u/littlezul]

It's even worse on the other side of the coin, where a temporary hire does terribly and brings down the morale for the whole team and upper management won't let you fire them because of "retention goals" despite sufficient documentation to prove they are more of a liability than an asset.

[u/SuperKato1K → u/[deleted]]

That's part of my justification as well. I could be making more money in the private sector but I would also be exposed to stresses that don't currently exist for me. When I clock out my job may as well not exist (psychologically) until I clock back in, that's another huge advantage that generally doesn't exist when you're corporate as well. I could actually get in a fair amount of trouble if I habitually worked off the clock.

[u/RE5TE → u/SuperKato1K]

When I clock out my job may as well not exist (psychologically) until I clock back in, that's another huge advantage that generally doesn't exist when you're corporate as well.

There are many large companies like that. Don't limit yourself because you think that job doesn't exist. Much of the difference is setting boundaries from the beginning.

[u/Darth_Wyvvern → u/[deleted]]

I make about 16 an hour with mad overtime right now, doing work I love (even though I'm sorta new to it, even if it is in line with my experience) but the scale of the job should be in the high 20 dollar an hour range. I could find a job that would pay more doing customer service and whatnot, but that work to me is soul crushing. I can't do it anymore. I don't even like being on the phone talking to people I love let alone some douchebag who hates his/her life and thinks that because I work in customer service that I'm somehow beneath them. I stay in physical labor jobs like this because I fuckin can't do that anymore. I totally understand your feelings.

[u/whyhelloclarice → u/dr_gonzo]

TBH I wouldn't be surprised in the manager is looking for a new role, too. Imagine going to bat for one of your people and not being supported at all by your boss. They couldn't even throw him a one-time bonus or something just slightly higher than the 2.5% everyone got (if everyone gets it, it's of course appreciated, & does got a long way for retention in general terms... but doesn't feel like you earned it).

[u/[deleted] → u/whyhelloclarice]

Does 2.5% even keep up with inflation though?

[u/AlexFromOmaha → u/[deleted]]

Usually, at least in recent years, yes. It would have been a raise over 8 of the last 10 and 14 of the last 20 years, and if that was consistent, it would have comfortably beaten inflation over either of those windows taken as a whole.

Given that inflation-adjusted wages were declining for half of that window and slow to recover, if you're making 2.5% more year-over-year, you're also probably beating out your neighbors.

On the other hand, if your employer's growth mirrors GDP or the S&P even vaguely, they have the money to pay you better than that.

[u/nautilator44 → u/[deleted]]

Exactly this. Anything smaller than around 3% is not a pay raise, it's a pay CUT. People really need to call it what it is.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

No

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The Federal Reserve just reported that inflation is currently close to their 2% target so it does keep up, but that's about it.

[u/pm_me_ur_smirk → u/dr_gonzo]

He fought that battle and lost, that's surely aggravating for him.

When you put it like that, it makes me think that his boss might expect and appreciate it if OP quits, just so his boss can have his 'I-told-you-so-moment' with his superiors.

[u/Igotfivecats → u/pm_me_ur_smirk]

OP's boss will absolutely 110% be having this conversation with his superiors when it goes down.

[u/erosian42 → u/Igotfivecats]

I got them to hire my replacement at $20k more than I made. They wouldn't give me a raise until I found a competing offer, and once I had the offer there was no way I was going to stay (plus the offer was another $10K higher and was a promotion, albeit at a smaller organization). But I did have a frank conversation with the Assistant Superintendent and told her that if she didn't want to be filling this role every few months she'd better hire someone at the rate they offered me to stay, as that's the very least someone competent would do the job for.

[u/cjw_5110 → u/dr_gonzo]

Happened to me last year. I didn't get promoted, and my manager told me that his only ask was that I tell him where my offer came from so he could help do some due diligence on the company. My offer came two weeks later, and he was nothing but happy for me.

[u/Uffda01 → u/FapForYourLife]

Find a new job, then recruit your boss... sounds like he needs out too

[u/AcTiVillain → u/Uffda01]

Wouldn't recommend if your contract contains a non-solicit clause. Should be - find new job - wait a year - then recruit boss

[u/[deleted] → u/FapForYourLife]

keep doing what you’re doing, even if it isn’t being rewarded here it’ll look good somewhere else

Isn't your boss already telling you to leave? He is not saying this to you, but is strongly hinting towards it and he really isn't in a position where he openly can tell you to look for other offers.

[u/thatgeekinit → u/FapForYourLife]

This corporate pressure to hold down salaries has been going on so long even the managers are sick of the game. Their boss tells them the same BS during their annual review. Everyone knows it's a few people at the top getting all the increases and pretending the company can't afford to pay better for everyone else.

[u/mickskitz → u/FapForYourLife]

It is possible that the do not value the role at the market rate and other businesses put that role at a higher value, which I somewhat expect as they were willing to give the role to someone of a lower level (You when you started) as opposed to hiring someone at the market rate who has the experience you now have. There may be no performance benchmarks you could hit where your value would increase to your business in line with the market rate and that is ok, but there is little value in you remaining in that role with that company, but you have to ask the question first.

[u/MadManMorbo → u/FapForYourLife]

See if they’ll agree to the title change. It will cost them nothing, since they’re already paying you the minimum. But you’ll get the title, which can go on your resume and help you shop for a better gig.

Years and years ago I worked for Dell. At the time, the only way to move up in the company was to leave on good terms, go somewhere else for a year, and then come back. You may be in a similar situation.

[u/staatsclaas → u/MadManMorbo]

I literally just did this with the company I’m at now.

Was scary how true this is.

[u/[deleted] → u/FapForYourLife]

Just to add to this good advice; once you receive and accept a letter of offer from another company which is within your desired range, simply give your current company your notice. If they ask why you are leaving just say "I have accepted an offer from another company on significantly more money, thank you"

Don't be snotty or emotional about it. Ultimately employment is a business transaction. At this point they might ask you if there is anything they can do to keep you. They might not. If they do ask this question just be honest and tell them that you would need a bump in salary and if they ask for a figure, give them something realistic that doesn't under-value you.

Remember this is different to "Give me a raise or I'll quit" - you have quit. You have accepted another offer. The job is done. If they want to keep you they'll try. But if they don't feel they need to then you'll leave on good terms as you didn't have a hissy fit beforehand.

If they come to the party you can easily rescind your acceptance and your resignation. The other company will understand, it happens all the time. But make sure you get the increase in writing. By the sounds of things they might give you a verbal promise and then nothing will happen.

[u/rashpimplezitz → u/FapForYourLife]

This is bad advice IMO.

I was in your position one year ago, severely underpaid and continuously promised a raise that never materialized. I loved my boss and he wanted to pay me more, but he kept getting stone-walled by the higher-ups.

Eventually had a meeting with the higher-ups myself and told them how I am underpaid and what I have to offer and blah blah blah, they promised it would be resolved so I waited around another 6 months only to be given the same shit raise as everyone else ( 3% ) because they just didn't have the resources.

When I went and got another offer and told them about that, it was crazy how quick the resources freed up. Like literally less than a week later I am negotiating what it would take to stay and now I am the one saying "Well, why would I accept a 15% raise when I can leave and get a 50% one".

In the end I settled for a 35% raise and a 15% bonus. I still have the same boss and he still likes me and is happy I am getting what I deserve. I could have taken the other job, but honestly I am happy here so why should I leave?

The truth is there is no negotiating without leverage. And if I rile up some assholes in upper management it doesn't affect me at all, and the truth is I think they respect me more because of it. If they don't they are just sore losers and why would I care what they think?

Also, in the year since that happened the higher-up I negotiated with left the company.

Just terrible, terrible advice. You get another offer and you use that as leverage and look out for yourself.

[u/zibitee → u/FapForYourLife]

The place I work at gives pretty bad raises from our annual reviews. It's usually 2-3% even for an exceeds expectations. What I do is I ask for a mid-year review and that has worked out pretty well in the past

[u/rdereknewell → u/FapForYourLife]

This is bad advice. Raise or I walk is the same thing as negotiating with an offer. Literally the same worlds will come out of your mouth. They will feel the same, but you will have the security of the competing offer. If you don’t need the security and will find a job regardless, then feel free to negotiate now. I would find another job where you are more valued regardless. I am super experienced in this and have managed thousands of employees. Do what you think is right in the situation but don’t undervalue yourself. Staying at a job where you make less than you are worth hurts you financially, it hurts your future career prospects and it hurts your self esteem. We all start to believe we are worth what we are paid. Go get the raise you deserve one way or another. Good luck!!

[u/Ubertarget → u/FapForYourLife]

Don't confuse friendly boss with friend. Huge mistake. He will always, always have to prioritize his job (and his budget) over you.

Every day you stay there out of loyalty is only costing you money. Look back on the time since you should have received this pay bump and calculate how many thousands and thousands of dollars you have flushed down the toilet being a good compliant employee. Start applying for better paying jobs TODAY

[u/[deleted] → u/FapForYourLife]

I've used leverage successfully in the past, but it was in an obvious "we have to hire this guy or we're screwed" situation. However, I presented them with what my other offer was, what the prevailing salary for my position was in the region, and the value adds that I brought to the table above the listed job requirements. My ask was for prevailing plus extra vacation time, nothing extreme. I told them that I was asking what was fair and not trying to extort them.

It sounds like this won't work for you in your position. They understand what your position is valued at and have no intention of paying you that. They believe that your manager can perform your duties if you leave and therefore view you as replaceable. With that mindset, they are happy to leave you where you are.

Go out and find another job. Get the offer in writing. Give your current employer the option of matching it and, if they don't, give your notice. This isn't the 60's. Employers have NO loyalty to you, there's no reason for you to be loyal to them.

[u/TheDude-Esquire → u/FapForYourLife]

The other thing to remember is that you owe them no loyalty. They didn't give you the raise BECAUSE the company doesn't care. Look for a new job, put yourself out there and see what you find.

[u/deepstatelady → u/FapForYourLife]

Absolutely. The other thing is sometimes you have to leave your company to get any sort of significant pay bump. Make sure you leave on good terms, give them a while to suffer without you. I've been able to go back to the first job within 6 months with a (barely) 5 figure bump in pay and more time off and better stock benefits. In the tech industry in particular this works really well. Of course it sucks and it's stupid, but that's corporate America. Too dumb to fail or succeed.

[u/prohibida → u/FapForYourLife]

That happened to me around 8 years ago (listening just to excuses, not getting the title and therefore not getting a fair raise) so I just decided that it was enough even though I loved what I was doing and that I really liked the company, but getting to see my friends and colleagues growing but me. I was in the same spot and I realized that it was just time to look somewhere else’s and I did. When I was in final interviews I shared with my boss the situation and she was very comprehensive. I got an offer from the other company and she asked me about it. I was not trying to negotiate, I felt it wasn’t right. But they did a really good job and offered me a new position better pay and from there I kept growing. I’m still working at the same company and I’m happy that I could start. Sometimes that’s what it takes to get budget approval from Finance and Compensation. I don’t regret it at all. You should just go for what you want. You should do a job at a company that makes you feel valued in all different aspects.

[u/OldTechnician → u/FapForYourLife]

Your Boss is playing you. He knows the rules and how your company's polices work. You make him look good. Get real, apply elsewhere and do the work you were hired to do very well.

[u/Sackfuller → u/FapForYourLife]

I get what this guy is saying about negotiation and in general its good advice, you don’t want to continue a relationship in bad trust. HOWEVER, there are good ways to go about this and accomplish the same thing. When a new offer does come your way, you can ask management nicely if they could match the salary with the sentiment that you enjoy working for the company and would like to continue doing so. Then citing all the hard work you do for the company (which you may have already done). If they aren’t willing to match you can leave the company on good terms.

Final Note: What do you have to lose by doing this, you either get paid more to continue a job you love or paid more at a new job you love. No burning bridges, no bad trust.

[u/[deleted] → u/dr_gonzo]

Depends on your industry but many bosses don't think this way anymore, me included. I actually negotiate for a living and the highest truth in my profession is that without leverage, there can be no negotiation. I've always given my employers to make a fair counteroffer, and it's not hurt me once. But again, depends on the boss and the industry.

[u/dr_gonzo → u/[deleted]]

I've always given my employers to make a fair counteroffer

Yes. Indeed, why wouldn't you hear out an employer on a counteroffer.

Have you seen/experienced employers who do counteroffers? Did you ever take one? I think I've only seen that in the wild once, and there were some unusual circumstances. Maybe it depends on the industry or roles, as you acknowledged.

without leverage, there can be no negotiation

There's some nuance I'm failing to convey. FWIW, I'm not a negotiation coach just the student, so maybe I'm not hitting all the right notes.

You're right. If we define "leverage" broadly, there won't be a negotiation without. I think the point is not to use leverage it in a negotiation where you value a long term relationship. If you're buying (or selling) a used car, you probably don't value a long term relationship, so leverage away. In many other negotiations, such as when negotiating employment arrangements like OP, you very much do value the long term relationship.

The first reason not to use leverage is because it takes you away from what should be your focus in a negotiation. What does the other side want/need, and what do you need to get it to them? What problem are you solving for them? Threatening someone in a negotiation is the opposite, you're creating a problem instead of solving one.

The main reason not to use leverage because they feel like they have "no choice". I've always advised to invite no in a negotiation. Give them a choice. This is what we can do for you, and if it doesn't work, no hard feelings or consequences otherwise. Feeling "trapped" invites a negative emotional response.

A quick example - we had a client who had an boom in growth, and at the height of their busy season. This was great for sales, and at the same time, scaling up and down for them was a challenge for us. We needed higher rates, business elsewhere was booming, and increasingly it didn't seem like a bad idea to cut this client lose.

We had an usual leverage we could have used! "Rates come up 25% next invoice, our your busy season is fucked when we pull out in 2 weeks." We could discussed new contracts, and let that implication linger, without suggesting it explicitly. The coach we worked with advised another approach. In our early conversations, we told the client explicitly, "We do need to discuss a new contract. And, we're not going to abandon you during busy season, whether we find agreement or not."

The felt safe. They felt like they had a choice, and didn't feel threatened. And in the end they agreed to a 25% increase and a bunch of other, arguably more important concessions.

Most importantly, that was years ago, and we still do business with that client. Maybe we could've pushed them to a 40% increase with threats and leverage! I'm certain the extra margin would be dwarfed by the fact years of revenue that came after this.

[u/poisontruffle → u/dr_gonzo]

I’ve always gotten counter offers, but I have never accepted them. Usually there was more benefit to leaving vs staying, all things considered.

This might be what you’re suggesting folks do as well, just putting in my two cents because I was confused by the first part of your comment.

[u/ViceroyFizzlebottom → u/poisontruffle]

Before I took the job I'm currently in I had years of great "exceeds" reviews and I made it clear over a couple years how important a promotion was to me. An opportunity for promotion elsewhere arose. When I got that offer, I met with my manager to discuss my opportunity. I advised again that I really want to stay but the offer to leave is very compelling. I asked if he could run it up the pole and see if there was anything else that could be done to retain me. He came back empty handed and I left. In retrospect it was a great move for me, but this whole comment thread has me wondering if I negotiated improperly or with hostility. Now I feel bad about a decision/tactics I made 6 and half years ago!

[u/[deleted] → u/dr_gonzo]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/trs-eric → u/[deleted]]

Some companies do extend the raise, until they find a suitable replacement.

[u/[deleted] → u/trs-eric]

If the company is going to pay the reduced salary whether it's you or a new hire, you lose nothing by trying. You can stay in your current position and suffer quietly, or demand what you are owed and possibly face consequences.

The first wiff of retaliation, be it a story from a coworker, something you read online, or maybe something as little as your bosses tone, just take the other job. Companies rarely play fair so dont give them the slack they need to hang you with.

[u/acemile0316 → u/[deleted]]

This sounds like a good plan! I was exactly in OP's position... Reviews exceed expectations and doing more work than my current title. I tried negotiating with my company but felt guilty about using a counter offer because I knew I didn't really want to work at the other company amd didn't want to "damage the relationship." Bad idea and would not recommend. Now it's super awkward with my boss and boss's boss because they think I'm looking for a place that pays me what I'm worth. They have a reason to be worried too because I actually am looking! If I had used the counter offer in the first place, they would at least know that I'm actually planning to stay at the company because I chose them over the other offer.

[u/Byrkosdyn → u/[deleted]]

There is a big difference between telling your boss about a new offer and say you are leaving, versus waving an offer in their face and say beat it or I walk. It’s about making it their idea to make the counteroffer instead of your idea to get a counteroffer. If they just let him walk without making a counter, then pushing the idea isn’t going to work.

[u/ThisIsRummy → u/dr_gonzo]

How do you not use leverage to negotiate a raise? Even something non-combative like "I think I'm worth $xyz more than you're paying me. I want you to compensate me properly for the value I'm bringing" always has the subtext of "... or I'll find someone who will." Compensation is pretty one dimensional, there aren't a lot of avenues for compromise. For example its not like negotiating a divorce - "you keep the beach house, I'll take the condo in the city." It's very unlikely /u/FapForYourLife could agree to do less work for the same money. And since /u/FapForYourLife is currently underpaid, doesn't seem willing to just keep working hard with the hope of being compensated later. Most employees end up only having the nuclear option: "pay me or I find someone who will".

[u/dr_gonzo → u/ThisIsRummy]

How do you not use leverage to negotiate a raise?

First, setup a meeting with someone with the power to actually give you a raise. In OP's case, this is someone other than his boss. Be transparent about why.

Second, do your homework. Know what you should be making. Find evidence of your market value, and value to the company.

Then do the meeting and say this:

"Hey Boss / Boss's Boss / Owner, thanks for meeting with me to talk about my value and role in the company.

First off, I'm really excited about the work I'm doing on ____. I really enjoy being able to see the great outcomes, such as blank _, from my contributions to this team. And I'm thrilled about what we have to look forward to. _____ is going to be great for the company, and I'm excited for the opportunity to keep working on it.

But, there's a problem. Can I share it with you?

I believe I'm underpaid. I started here doing __, and my compensation was more than fair at the time. Since then, my responsibilities have grown significantly, and now include _, __, and ___. Here are some of the great results we've had since I took over: _, __, ____.

To be clear, this company is great, and I love my work, my teammates, and the culture here. I want to keep working on <company's mission and purpose>. To do that, I am asking that you to evaluate my compensation package, to bring it in line with my value on the market, and to the company. Is that something you can do?"

Then, you prepare to answer questions about what would be fair, with more data. You wait for a question like "what do you think would be fair" before asking for what you want.

And cap it off by saying something like "I realize that will feel like a big ask. I think if you look at ______ and ______, you'll see I'm more than worth it to the company. And if you don't agree after you've had a chance to think it over, no hard feelings. I appreciate you giving it some thought and taking the time to discuss."

[u/AirheadAlumnus → u/dr_gonzo]

So there is still leverage, ultimately. The employer just doesn't feel the heat of it during the actual conversation - which in a way might muddy the waters a little bit if they don't know the employee is looking around for a new gig (granted, they'd have to be pretty dense to consider that an employee who is asking for a raise after assuming more responsibilities isn't checking to see what's out there.

Essentially the point you're making almost seems to be one of tact; make the leverage implicit, not explicit.

[u/Tepid_Coffee → u/dr_gonzo]

This advice is parroted way too often here, and is NOT true for many large corporations. I & my colleagues have successfully used outside job offers repeatedly to get raises.

In a large company, your boss may have every interest in keeping their employee salaries at market rate, but HR may be blocking. At many companies I've worked, the manager has no ability to give a larger raise, but HR does have the ability to match outside offers to keep employees.

[u/[deleted] → u/dr_gonzo]

Seriously? Don't use leverage to negotiate? That sounds utterly preposterous. This is a financial decision, if his boss can pay him less to do the same job he is going to choose that unless you give him a reason otherwise. They ALREADY have you over a barrel as they made a promise and reneged without any negative consequences.

[u/dr_gonzo → u/[deleted]]

They ALREADY have you over a barrel as they made a promise and reneged without any negative consequences.

Right! That's why OP just needs to leave.

You should put someone over a barrel in a business negotiation. Nor should you do business with a person (or organization) that does that to you.

[u/Starob → u/dr_gonzo]

The thing is, if the company is very beaurocratic, this situation might be more about what they're 'allowed' to do, not what they want to do. All the people involved might actually want to give OP a pay increase, but they're not allowed to. Some HR departments have policies that allow them to give counteroffers to people who have been made better offers. It might be his only way within the company to actually get approved for a raise that they actually already want to give him.

[u/AliasHandler → u/[deleted]]

I think what the other commenter is saying is that this sort of negotiation will permanently damage a relationship, and it's not worth trying to use it to get better pay now, because your employer will screw you over at the first opportunity. And then your other opportunity may not be available and you'll be stuck. If you get a better offer elsewhere that you want, then you should just leave and go work there, and list the below market pay as the reason you're leaving during your exit interview. It's not worth negotiating by using another offer against your current employer.

It's not a bad thing to stand up for yourself and demand the market rate (which is what OP has done several times). But at this point using another offer as leverage isn't likely to work out in the long term. The current employer is already screwing him. Best to leave there and do better elsewhere.

[u/bxncwzz → u/AliasHandler]

I get what both of you are saying, but I have to disagree. I'm good 'friends' with my managers and coworkers but being professional and leveraging a job for a raise is completely fine imo.

Should OP not feel some sort of way when he was denied his raise? Why does OP have to be the only one to salvage the relationship?

He's stuck anyways. The only thing that will hurt if he asks is they say no or yes. Either way, the discussion of his pay will come into light.

[u/[deleted] → u/AliasHandler]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/hardolaf → u/[deleted]]

There were no hard feelings with my last company over the counter that I rejected. Hell, my former director already reached out just six months after leaving them to let me know that I'd always be welcomed back in the future. It was a business decision. I wanted out of Florida and they couldn't, within their pay bands without overriding new levels put in by HR just 3 months before, offer me enough to properly counter. In total, I took a 40% increase in COL-adjusted total compensation. They offered a 10% increase in COL-adjusted compensation. If the new levels hadn't been in place, they could have offered a 30-50% increase and kept me.

At the point when the negotiations happened, it was all business to everyone involved.

[u/landon9560 → u/[deleted]]

I've always read it as "now they know that you're willing to up and leave, once they find someone to replace your ass, you're gone because it seems like a 'threat'" and less of "its not a nice thing to use leverage for better pay."

[u/wOlfLisK → u/[deleted]]

I think what he's saying is that negotiating is pointless. When you have to use another job offer to get them to match the pay, it's better to just take the other offer.

[u/wallstreetOOF → u/dr_gonzo]

This sounds logical but it is bad advice. Don't avoid using leverage on the off-chance someone will be offended and look to "get back at you". There's no guarantee that being the nice happy employee is going to give you anything more than a smile and goodwill (as the OP has learned). In business winners take, losers give. Don't be a giver. He's been ignored by upper management for promotions beyond the standard 2.5%. When an employee comes to ask for a raise the upper managers look at this type of situation as 'putting out a fire'. They try to come up with a quick solution and bury it away until later. This is why nobody is sitting around remembering that you already asked for a previous raise and weren't given what you asked for. Don't rely on anyone else to ever have your best interest, they are mostly worried about their own problems.

​

[u/highresthought → u/wallstreetOOF]

While I agree with most of your premise, the only thing I’d say is that winners give AND take.

If you make it obvious to the company your high value, and you ‘take’ what you deserve while seeming to do everything effortlessly, that’s when they will give you outsize pay increases.

One thing a lot of people do is they work too hard.

Again I use the metaphor of women. If you seem like your trying too hard, you look like a house of cards and end up as the bitter divorced/single guy drinking whiskey at the bar.

It’s possible to be highly effective while putting in much less effort. If you look like your doing this and your giving and taking, using leverage without seeming like a jerk about it and convincing the other person they are actually taking you to the cleaners while they happily give you a massive raise, then your going to have the best results.

Give and you shall receive is true, but you have to actually receive. Most people are not good at receiving what’s theirs to take, which is why so many miss the majority of opportunities. Most people also give in non leveraged ways which is why you always have people saying “I work too hard for this”.

Well no one cares how hard you work. They care about the actual value being given. You can work extremely hard at things that barely have value. You can spend hours combing your hair and choosing cologne and working hard to impress that hot date, but you could do 1000x better showing up half looking like a scrub and being engaged and therefore engaging rather than struggling to prove how awesome you are.

This is why mark zuckerberg gets to wear the same hoodie on a daily basis.

He identified a way to create massive immediately apparent value for many people with minimal effort and implemented quickly.

[u/YachiyoTodoroki → u/dr_gonzo]

Not sure how it is in US, but in my country the company won't give you a raise without this kind of leverage (in 90% of cases). And very often they will actually perceive you as a strong individual when you act this way, while avoiding any kind of promotion otherwise.

[u/the4mechanix → u/dr_gonzo]

negotiation coach

How does one go about finding a negotiation coach...and how does that work out for you?

[u/sirbruce → u/the4mechanix]

> negotiation coach

If I were going to hire a negotiation coach, I'd just call them up and dicker over how much he was going to charge for his services. Naturally he'll try to get the best deal for himself that he can. At the end of the conversation I'd have learned all of his tricks on how to negotiate, and then I wouldn't need to hire him.

[u/ProgrammerByDay → u/sirbruce]

I feel like I just found Dwight Schrute's reddit account.

[u/mcdj → u/sirbruce]

That’s not a negotiation.

Yes it is.

No it’s not, it’s simple back and forth about prices.

That’s what negotiation is.

No it’s not.

Yes it is.

Stop arguing.

This isn’t an argument.

Yes it is.

No it’s not.

[u/_The_Judge → u/dr_gonzo]

I've always said that if I am a star performer in your organization, it is not incumbent upon me to make sure your org retains me. It is incumbent upon the employer to ensure that job offers do not lure their top performers away. This is why so many employers today try to get you to sign "non-competes" and use it as a method to make you think you cannot work with a competitor within 2 hours of your residense.....except thats not how non-competes work.

[u/[deleted] → u/dr_gonzo]

I worked with an really awesome negotiation coach for a while, and he was big on this idea: don't use leverage to negotiate.

What you're describing is not negotiation, it's begging for a rise.

Negotiations to happen require both parties put something.

[u/Labiosdepiedra → u/[deleted]]

I think they might've meant ultimatums.

[u/_myusername__ → u/[deleted]]

I mean in this case, the leverage is your work output and your skills. The other offer is just validation from a third-party.

I agree with the negotiation coach that using the offer would be too blunt and could cause management to look at the employee with disdain when moving forward

[u/[deleted] → u/_myusername__]

I mean in this case, the leverage is your work output and your skills.

Not really - you sell those for cheap already - that's the thing.

If you just ASK for more money you will receive a token rise at most in most of cases. You need to propose the other part something they will gain. Even old good "I will be more motivated to work knowing that I'm getting payed market price which will increase my performance" is better than nothing.

You also need some leverage - what will happen if your offer is not accepted? If the answer is "nothing" then why should they accept? Because they're good people?

"I may start considering other options", "I won't do overtime anymore", "I will quit right here and right there" - are different levels of pressure, but there need to be something.

​

could cause management to look at the employee with disdain when moving forward

If the management is paying half of the market value then disdain would be an improvement over the contempt they likely feel. IIRC most top management have psychopathic tendencies - they're likely happy they have the idiot for cheap.

[u/DBCOOPER888 → u/dr_gonzo]

Seems like somewhat outdated advice. The better approach I think is to use this as leverage, but not as an ultimatum that will burn bridges. It's not breaking trust with the employer if you're honest with them about what you want. Just explain you enjoy working there but think it's time to move to a position with higher / pay responsibilities and you have this other opportunity you're thinking of.

In fact I think the alternative of not even giving them the chance to counter before you leave would potentially cause more harm to the relationship. If you give them a heads up it gives them time to make a business decision.

[u/[deleted] → u/dr_gonzo]

I think you can use leverage without putting someone over a barrel, especially if you have a good relationship with them. I think you can sort of leverage your relationship with your immediate manager, if you know they have your back, to leverage the outside offers against the management above that manager. For example, you tell your immediate manager that you are looking elsewhere and based on offers you have received you believe you are worth $xx,xxx. If you have a good manager THAT YOU TRUST, you can work together for them to bring that to upper management and fight for you by saying, "I have a vital employee, they have offers elsewhere for $xx,xxx, we need to do better for them or they may walk." By having them as an intermediary, upper management is less able to try to exert leverage over you in the future, because again, you have the manager to intermediate. This is what I am doing with my manager, because I fully trust her and she has been super transparent. I know she will take all the heat, especially since she is planning on retiring in like 3 years and having me take her job lol.

[u/narcolepticMD → u/dr_gonzo]

I've read multiple books on negotiations and this is the first time I've heard of someone suggesting that you don't need a BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement.) That's some strange advice you've received.

I agree that the first step is not a threat (give me a raise or I leave) but that is the last step before you quit. Getting an alternative offer will help you know what you're worth on the market.

[u/Illumixis → u/dr_gonzo]

Why be so passive though? What's wrong with riling people up? Why live such a submissive life style?

[u/killyi → u/dr_gonzo]

In terms of work, I agree and don't like the idea of leveraging for a higher salary. I'm currently in a similar situation and currently negotiating. If I'm not satisfied with what they say and offer, I'll be looking elsewhere. I personally won't leverage another offer. I see no point. The other company offered what I wanted right off the bat, why would I use that to try and get a counter offer to stay at a company who's not willing to invest in employees that bust their ass off? It just seems backwards to me when I see or hear about employees resorting to leaving companies every couple of years because of it.

[u/spookmann → u/dr_gonzo]

don't use leverage to negotiate.

As a boss, the corresponding rule is "never counter-offer when somebody wants to leave."

The only thing you should do is attempt to negotiate the timing and conditions of departure to make things as easy as possible for both parties.

[u/dr_gonzo → u/spookmann]

"never counter-offer when somebody wants to leave."

I'm kind of surprised at how many redditors are saying otherwise. In my experience, that's a de facto policy at most companies, and even an explicitly stated policy at some.

I think most employers hold the view that if someone is unhappy enough to go find another job offer, the employer is better off to let them go and do it amicably.

Finally, I think some (clearly, not all) employees over-inflate the consequences of them leaving. I left a job a while back (where, of course, I was essential) and a surly colleague informed me that my departure would leave the the same hole you'd leave if you pulled your arm out of a bucket of water. (e.g. none, ha.)

Counter-offers run all kinds of risks for employers. They set a precedent for other employees, and you could also be just stringing along an unhappy employee for a few more months while they make life miserable for the whole team.

[u/SwatLakeCity → u/dr_gonzo]

Counter-offers run all kinds of risks for employers.

So does stiffing supposedly crucial employees. If OP is as important as he says then him getting a pittance for a raise should tell all of his co-workers that they have zero value to their employer. Why give a fuck about your performance review if you know for a fact that exceeding expectations only benefits your boss?

[u/pencyboy → u/dr_gonzo]

I disagree. A friend of mine is an attorney with Netflix, and she told me that to get her salary where it is now, she would have lunch with potential employers looking to poach her, then ask them to make an offer in writing. She would take the offer to her boss and ask them to match it. Apparently, this is really common among lawyers.

[u/gummby8 → u/dr_gonzo]

This is kind of what happened with my situation.

It was a, "Don't force me to start looking for better. Because I will find better, and I will leave when I find it. If I am looking it is already too late"

Fortunately they understood well before it came to that.

​

[u/kdthex01 → u/dr_gonzo]

Leverage is power. Nothing changes from a position of weakness. “how” leverage is used is important.

100% agree “or I walk” is not a good approach.

“Thank you for the experience. I tried to give you every chance to keep me” when handing in 2 week notice is a good approach.

Worst outcome is for them to genuinely say “I didn’t know”. First off, they knew. Nonetheless clearly and unambiguously ask for what you want in writing.

[u/lyone2 → u/dr_gonzo]

So what type of negotiation do they suggest in this type of situation? About 9 or 10 years ago I was a temp with my state agency and was offered two jobs, one was the job I already had but on a permanent basis, the other was a step up. I loved my current job but it was a $10k/year difference in pay. I told them, “I really enjoy working for you and I love my job, but it’s not just $10k this year, it’s $10k every year from here on out. Can you do anything to bridge that gap?” They offered to meet me halfway, and I gladly accepted. Is this closer to what they recommended?

[u/HandyMan131 → u/dr_gonzo]

Instead of threatening to quit, quietly give your boss your notice and if he asks why tell him that you got a significantly better offer elsewhere that you’d be a fool to turn down. If your current employer values you they will give you an offer to stay, and then you have two good options. If you stay they will feel like they successfully saved a valuable employee, so they will see you in a positive light as someone they want to keep around and promote to keep happy since the competition is clearly trying to poach you.

I’ve been the boss in these situations, and they almost always turn out well for the employee

[u/walkwithred → u/dr_gonzo]

Disagree. As a boss, if I have an employee with an offer and I want to keep them, that is a good position to force the hand of senior management. It’s not my money. And it’s usually not their money either.

If you have petty minded people in your management chain that think you have something over them by getting another offer and are looking for payback somehow, that is a reason to leave.

To me, it sounds like OPs boss is supportive/appreciative and he just needs a stronger case to push his higher ups to do the right thing. Also don’t take for granted that he likes his job. That is actually very rare and valuable.

[u/zeptillian → u/dr_gonzo]

This is not just about the bureaucracy about pay raises. This is them not paying promised wages for a job promotion. They are trying to get OP to do the work of a different position which has a different pay scale for the same pay scale as their previous position.

[u/avdigigeek → u/dr_gonzo]

If you try strong arm the company it may work in the short run but you will get cut as soo as they can replace you.

[u/ferofax → u/dr_gonzo]

"You're not building a relationship based on trust and respect."

Neither is the company for that matter, if they are denying you due credit, financially or otherwise.

[u/tgwinford → u/dr_gonzo]

Like many things, it’s all in the way you handle it.

“Give me this raise or I take this better offer” = wrong way to do it.

“I must be upfront that I have another offer of $X. I truly have enjoyed my time working here and would love to stay, but I can’t justify foregoing this opportunity at my current position and salary. I don’t want to put you on the spot with anything, so I do not need an answer immediately, but I have told them I will let them know by the end of the week.”

[u/[deleted] → u/dr_gonzo]

I use leverage to negotiate for my employees with upper management. I train them and I really, really don't want to lose my time investment. "I've spent all this time in training, and people are already trying to hire her away from me!" sort of thing. (I know I get unsolicited offers, and I am sure my two assistants do, too, because they are underpaid and hard workers)

[u/R-110 → u/dr_gonzo]

Thank you for how you’ve put this together.

I just resigned and during the exit interview my manager asked why I didn’t raise the issues that lead to my departure as a dealbreaker.

I DID! For over a year I partook in the beurocratic processes in place that were designed to solve my problems. Every step of the way I raised these issues as significant, unforgiveable problems that I expected to be solved (and quickly) because I expected better than what was being provided to me.

I was very outspoken and transparent with not only my manager but also the management of various other teams with whom I frequently liaised with. I was so outspoken that at times I feared being so honest and candid might cost me my job by upsetting the status quo.

My complaints, suggestions and requests were largely ignored.

What my manager meant by his question was: why didn’t you provide me with an ultimatum before resigning?

Why should I need to? It’s unhealthy negotiation and creates a scenario where the only way to sow change is to threaten nuclear. The next time something bad happens I’ll be expected to threaten it again, until my manager grows bitter of my manipulative tactics (and poor negotiating).

That’s not a relationship I want to have with my manager. The relationship I want is the one where my raised concerns are solved as a matter or importance and urgency, as they should be.

[u/sandalguy89 → u/dr_gonzo]

This is it. Show them what you’re worth, tell them you have decided to leave for better opportunity and that you appreciate their support in your career thus far, and say hello to the better paycheck. If there is opportunity for you in your current gig, they may reach out to you down the line. If they do, they will have the understanding that you intend to contribute meaningfully and be compensated as such.

[u/AlexMachine → u/dr_gonzo]

This. If any of my workers would come to me and say that they have another job waiting and they want the salary raise or they will walk. I would told them "It was nice to have you here"

Blackmailing raise is never a good option. But insted if they come to me and they would justify why they should need a raise (Performance, initiative and so on) I would really work my way to get them raise. Maybe not so much they ask, but something Still in that ball park which would show that Company restpect them.

​

Bottom line. Using leverage show that you are not committed to the Company and if given raise, you would do it again, or leave netx time you get an offer from another Company.

​

[u/arp2195 → u/FapForYourLife]

I have been in your shoes many times. The idea of the organization is why do I pay him more? People tend to have a hard time with change so they are unwilling to give you a raise. I am on job number four in the last 10 years and the last 3 jobs countered offered the same salary as the new employer.

Tl:dr employers rarely care if you feel unfairly compensated

[u/KitchenBomber → u/FapForYourLife]

Getting an offer may also loosen the purse strings at your current job. Definitely start looking. Loyalty is sort of outdated now and there are lots of articles about how moving around a few times can dramatically increase your long term income.

[u/chrisms150 → u/KitchenBomber]

Getting an offer may also loosen the purse strings at your current job.

Not good advice IMO. If you go to your current job and say "I have an offer, match or I walk" they may match just to keep you on until they have a replacement for you who will work at your lower salary. Then they shitcan you because doing this sort of thing leaves a bad taste in some people's mouth.

If you get a better offer, go to the better place.

[u/SafetyMan35 → u/chrisms150]

I started looking years ago and was offered a higher paying position (30%more) with more growth potential. When I gave my notice, the president of the company asked if I was willing to negotiate. I said no thanks as if I was really that important you would have given me a raise when I earned it rather than when I threatened to quit.

[u/opheliavalve → u/SafetyMan35]

I don't know if you really said that but that's a bad ass response!

[u/wienercat → u/SafetyMan35]

True enough. If they weren't paying you correctly now, why would they continue to do so in the future?

[u/isle394 → u/SafetyMan35]

Fist-bump

[u/Cypraea → u/chrisms150]

Seconded. If this is how they "reward" exceeding-expectations work, they do not extend their value of you to you and don't deserve consideration as a job option.

If you applied at a place and discussed salary and they told you "we're going to give you more duties and responsibilities than your pay covers and string you along for six months and then six months again, promising "reviews" that never turn into raises and acting like a 2.5% increase in salary is a raise rather than a slight drop in real pay because it falls short of the 2.8% cost of living increase in 2019," you wouldn't choose to work there.

Note that they're only promising you the opportunity to renegotiate, not that that opportunity will have any effect---and if they've said this before, they've already showed you how much that opportunity is worth.

They've been underpaying you already. They don't deserve the benefit of the doubt or to be offered the opportunity to pay you better. They already had that, and if they valued it (or you), they could have done it.

[u/ga-co → u/chrisms150]

I don't enjoy the office politics game, but at a previous job I was underpaid. I wanted more money to reflect the value of my work, but that just wasn't happening. I had brought this up with my manager who was really powerless to do anything. Other than COLAs, no one really got raises at this place. So... I applied for a job elsewhere and then told the most gossipy person in the building. This was a 700+ employee healthcare organization. The CEO knew me by name, but had never sat down in the cafeteria to eat with me. Shortly after the rumor mill indicated I was leaving, he asked if he could share a table with me. I knew my value to the organization and thankfully the CEO did as well. We talked candidly and I was offered a 17% raise. I'm not suggesting this will always work, but it did work for me.

[u/isperfectlycromulent → u/ga-co]

Most people get that kind of raise by quitting and getting a new job. My last job jump gave me a 48% raise.

[u/Whateverchan → u/ga-co]

Sounds like the CEO was a decent man. :)

[u/Karabarra2 → u/Whateverchan]

Were that the case, raises wouldn’t be basically unheard of and OP wouldn’t have had to threaten to leave to get one. The CEO only gave a shit because he realized he would lose a productive employee and it would cost the company money to replace. That might make the CEO business savvy, but it sure doesn’t make him a decent man.

[u/FRedington → u/Whateverchan]

Nope!
He was just backed into a corner.

[u/ga-co → u/Whateverchan]

Personally, I did like the CEO. Professionally? Not so much. He banked a 6-digit raise (this hospital was in a poor community) the same year we inexplicably laid off 7 people because we were struggling financially... or so we were told.

[u/DETpatsfan → u/chrisms150]

It’s hard to say anything is an absolute. There are a lot of jobs where the talent pool isn’t super deep and they do actually need to keep you. It all depends on the situation. If you have a transparent relationship with your boss and you trust them, accepting a counter isn’t necessarily a career death sentence.

[u/SkullCrusherRI → u/chrisms150]

Please listen to this guy and not the previous one. NEVER accept counter-offers to match. It will be used against you in your next salary negotiation and it shouldn’t be.

[u/molten_dragon → u/SkullCrusherRI]

NEVER accept counter-offers to match.

I wouldn't say never. There are definitely major risks to it, and in many cases the risks outweigh the benefits. But if you have a good relationship with your boss (and the people above him to some extent) then it may be in your best interest to stay if they can match your new offer or get close to it.

[u/Xclusive198 → u/molten_dragon]

Well it sounds like the actual supervisor doesn't give two shits about the guy. His immediate boss even gave good word about him and he was still denied. In situations like these, find a better offer and move on.

[u/Freethecrafts → u/Xclusive198]

This.

You put in your time and have done everything to meet milestones. They do not see you as valuable, find somewhere that does. If they don't see you as valuable enough to pay, they'll never see you as valuable enough to promote.

[u/Brittalula → u/Freethecrafts]

I wish I had learned this lesson when I was 25 instead of waiting until almost-too-late at 35. I think the last sentence should be inscribed on the front of every college diploma.

[u/Strommsawyer → u/molten_dragon]

I had a friend who recently opted to leave his company. The first offer he got somewhere else, he took to HR and discussed he would leave if they didn't want to give him a reasonable match. He wasn't in love with the new place, but was willing to move if they didn't offer a match. He got more than that offer to stay.

He then looked for 3 months until he found a job he was very happy with, and took that offer. The extra pay in the meantime was definitely worth any weirdness from the "I'm looking elsewhere-counter offer"

[u/pppancakes123 → u/SkullCrusherRI]

Same thought. Also consider that if you accept a counter offer, they would hold that figure above you and not give you any raises beyond that.

Personal anecdote - I got counter offered by my current company. But they vaguely told me “with this offer we’re hoping you would stay at least 2 years more” which is corporate speak for “take the counter offer and don’t expect any raises for the next 2 years”.

[u/0livejuic → u/pppancakes123]

Sounds like they are basically loaning the next two years raises to said person.

[u/recursive → u/SkullCrusherRI]

NEVER accept counter-offers to match. It will be used against you in your next salary negotiation and it shouldn’t be.

Nope. I took one for a big raise, and have been given more leadership and raises since then.

[u/zombie_girraffe → u/SkullCrusherRI]

Maybe it varies by field, but it's worked out for me twice and I asked my current employer to beat the offer, not just match it both times.

[u/[deleted] → u/zombie_girraffe]

It does vary, many times depending on your role.

Some positions are revenue generating in one form or another and that's where a lot of leverage tends to sit.

If you're assembly trying to go from $20 to $22 an hour, adios.

If you're an engineer or senior sales trying to go from $200k to $230k... Let's talk.

It's sad to think about, but I see it often.

[u/zombie_girraffe → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, I'm a Software Engineer, so not negotiating for more pay every two or three years seems like leaving money on the table for me.

[u/Wanna_B_Spagetti → u/SkullCrusherRI]

Absolutely. Counter-offers are just your HR department defining how much they are willing to pay to keep you on long enough to replace you.

[u/ParaglidingAssFungus → u/Wanna_B_Spagetti]

Not true everywhere. Replacing employees is time consuming and expensive.

[u/Pokir → u/ParaglidingAssFungus]

I was offered a significant pay increase to go to a different company, my boss offered me more than that offer and promoted me at the same time.

My next review they tried to low ball me and i countered there offer with a list of improvements i've made to the company and they bumped the review raise.

It's important to know the company and people you work for/with.

[u/ParaglidingAssFungus → u/Pokir]

I was making 60k, got a job offer for 75k and took it to my employer, they matched it, and we went on our merry ways. No one butthurt.

Now, if you're a shitty employee that does the bare minimum, you may very well get replaced or told to kick rocks.

[u/[deleted] → u/Wanna_B_Spagetti]

Depends how valuable you are. Many technical positions take 1-2 years to just get up to speed, not even taking into account other technical abilities.

[u/PM_ME_HIMALAYAN_CATS → u/SkullCrusherRI]

Also, always say your offers are a few % higher than they actually, then your current workplace says "a company that hasn't seen them work a day yet is offering them X% more than what we pay them?"

Then when your current company matches, you can go back to new company and tell them your current company values you so much they matched and exceeded with their counter offer. Play the game baby.

It's like bartering, the only reference point for your value that either company has is what the other company is offering to pay for you.

You run the risk of scaring and making one of the two companies fold, but you do this every few months.

You're betting on yourself, and you h ave full control over your performance, who cares if the company you're working for plans to shitcan you if you're constantly searching for offers and always have one lined up at least at match level

this strategy also works better if you live in a downtown core where there is no shortage of jobs in your field.

YMMV if you live in rural area where there's only a few major employers

[u/Zscore3 → u/PM_ME_HIMALAYAN_CATS]

Got a 50% raise last year playing the game.

Not super relevant, I just like bragging.

[u/bjornwjild → u/Zscore3]

Damn that's impressive.. mind sharing ballpark numbers? Cause at any level that seems wild. At the lowest going from 20k to 30 is awesome, and at the high income level going from 100k to 150 is pretty amazing too

[u/Zscore3 → u/bjornwjild]

A little less than $40k as a contractor to a little more than $75k as a FTE. It's the difference between a spreadsheet monkey and a data analyst. Ironically, I do a ton of math for the new position, and just made the 50% vs 100% mistake.

[u/caseywh → u/SkullCrusherRI]

Nonsense. I have done, and been successful with, both renegotiating and leaving. It all depends on your approach.

[u/seahawkguy → u/chrisms150]

I agree, the company will feel salty about someone who they feel isn’t loyal and will hold it against him. Either you stay or make a clean break.

[u/Pochend7 → u/chrisms150]

Never go back to your current employer and say ‘match it to stay’. They have to beat it, by at least a couple percent. They wanted to play a game, now you hold the cards to play. It will cost them resources to replace you, so make them decide if it’s worth it.

If they do raise, then take that back to the other company. This is the last chance, as in don’t keep playing this game, and ask the new place to match the old place. This is so that you can tell the old place to suck it.

[u/Burn-O-Matic → u/chrisms150]

Don't think anyone is suggesting that kind of tactic. Leading with an ultimatum is never good negotiating.
Going in and honestly saying I like the job and want to stay, but think I'm worth more, here is what I'm worth to someone else, what can we do? Would probably get some traction.

[u/madevo → u/Burn-O-Matic]

They had their chance. Don't go to them until you have another option since they're very likely to say seeya later.

[u/ELFAHBEHT_SOOP → u/madevo]

Maybe. I think u/Burn-O-Matic is just recommending that you not frame it like an ultimatum. Working with your employer vs working against them.

[u/jewishsherrif → u/chrisms150]

They've also demonstrated a pattern of not paying you what you deserve. Even if they match, what happens the next time you deserve a raise? You'll be back in the same boat.

[u/Lone_Beagle → u/jewishsherrif]

^ This. The same thing is going to happen next year, or the next time you deserve a raise. Lather, rinse, repeat, why put up with this?

[u/TradinPieces → u/chrisms150]

But if you like your current job and are legitimately very good at it, it can work out. People always say not to stay, but most employers would rather keep you around if you're very good (i.e. hard to replace).

[u/[deleted] → u/TradinPieces]

If they were pressed about keeping them around, they should be decent enough to pay them well.

[u/Lockon007 → u/[deleted]]

Poaching is a thing tho.

My job pays me a very good rate for my responsibilities and title. That doesn't stop other companies from offering more to copy my team's process and successes for their company.

[u/Dr_Watson349 → u/chrisms150]

This is not a universal truth. Iv been with the same company for 10 years and twice they countered competing offers. The idea that they will counter and then go find a cheaper replacement isn't a given. Hiring and training is both expensive and time intensive.

[u/xabrol → u/chrisms150]

Agreed, counter offers are almost always bad. If I get to the point of having a counter offer I leave and don't accept counters

If they offer me a counter I tell them I would be willing to do some contract hours periodically at something like $75 an hour.

I stayed on at one job for 12 months as a part time employee making $50 an hour , had a W-2 and everything. While working full time for new place making 65% more than I was making where I left.

I logged about 8 hours a week for the first few months as part time and 40 a week at new job. Then I slowly stepped back from old job.

So I used the part time counter to their counter to show I wanted to help them finish their projects and it kept the bridge open for me to go back there.

[u/[deleted] → u/chrisms150]

100% this.

[u/SirBearLag → u/chrisms150]

If your position is easily expendable, this is the correct response.

BUT, if your position requires a fair bit of training and prior knowledge, then no. They will not look to replace you unless it's easy to do so. That would be more expensive for them to search for someone willing to do what you do, at the lower pay, and then needing to train them to get them to your level as well. In this case, they'd rather keep you. If you do get paranoid, definitely keep an eye on their "job postings", but in this day and age, it's not "rude" or even against norms to figure out your market value and request your current job at match it.

Since you like your job though, keep in mind you have to be willing to leave it for the other job offer if need be. Otherwise your current shitty management has you under their grasp.

[u/dotajoe → u/chrisms150]

I disagree with this. If you can get the same money working in an environment you know you like, let the current employer match, rather than heading to a new place that might have a vastly different culture, or a boss you hate, or otherwise be a worse situation. I don’t think management will be looking to replace you just because you are now more expensive - management is lazy. But I do think you will have to show results to justify your new higher price tag.

[u/kd7uiy → u/chrisms150]

Pro tip: Get a better offer from your current work, and use that to get a better offer from the place you are trying to work for.

[u/themightychris → u/chrisms150]

Better to go to the person who gave to the good review now and let them know you're disappointed at the result. Tell them you feel under compensated and that won't be sustainable for you in the long term

They won't rush to fire/replace you for saying that, instead they'll get to work trying to figure out how to keep you around longer because that's easier/cheaper than replacing you

It's implied that you at some point might start shopping around so then you're not being dishonest when you do, but you're also not applying the hostile leverage that gets you written off immediately as an unsafe investment

[u/dvali → u/chrisms150]

In the past I've approached it as something like

"I've had another job offer, paying x. I'm happy working here but can't ignore such a significant increase. I don't necessarily expect you to go quite so high but would you be willing to have a conversation about salary or benefit options."

A slightly less adversarial tone, indicates that you'd rather stay with them even if the salary is a little lower (which is usually true for me as it saves a lot of disruption). Probably they won't budge anyway but you perhaps leave on slightly better terms. I should be getting paid at least 30% more than I am and am expecting to have this conversation again soon.

[u/vatothe0 → u/KitchenBomber]

My wife is now returning to an employer she left 2 years ago with about a 60% increase in pay and is her former boss' boss. Different circumstances from OP but there was no way she could have made these advances staying in place.

Loyalty is dead but that doesn't mean you have to burn a bridge on your way out or that you can't come back and do even better.

[u/Optimized_Orangutan → u/KitchenBomber]

Loyalty is sort of outdated now

You ain't got a pension, always be looking.

[u/Rhynegains → u/KitchenBomber]

Noooo, this is terrible nowadays. This may have worked 10 years ago, but today that means they know you'll be open to leaving one day. They may up your salary for a year then drop you once they found someone to replace you.

If you hunt for a job, leave. Dont try to increase your salary there.

[u/Klaus0225 → u/Rhynegains]

They also have to find someone whose willing to do the job for less. If the market value is X amount higher than current then they likely won’t.

[u/Yes_CubanBee → u/FapForYourLife]

I see a lot of people advising not to consider a counter offer; I would disregard this advise. If you like your job and manager, and see future growth with the company, you should consider staying if they can make the comp work. I can share my experience.

I accepted my firm's counter 2 years ago for a 40% raise, and just received an unexpected bonus that was 5x my bonus 2 years ago. I was able to explain that the annual raises had not kept up with my market value, and the offer in hand proved it. I liked my job and company, but could not afford to pass an opportunity for that kind of raise. I got a solid counter, slightly below my offer, that I accepted. I have been promoted twice over the past two years and seen my total comp raise another 25%. The offer and how I dealt with it helped mark me as a high performer. HR and management do not have a grudge against me, we actually have a better relationship based on how I dealt with them.

[u/highresthought → u/Yes_CubanBee]

This is why people need to learn 4 tier negotiation. You simply make your offer higher than what your actual salary you want is and then go through the three standard rungs where typically most people stop at three and say this is my final offer on the fourth you appear to be bending over backwards saying “fine I guess I guess can accept exactly what I originally had in mind. You got me. But I really can’t go any lower than this.”

[u/_scorp_ → u/ApostleO]

If you get a better offer take it. Whilst they other company might be as bad as where you currently are, you won't know if you don't go. But it's your current employer that's not paying you what you're worth. It's simply business, you're selling your time and expertise, you've offered it to your current employer and they've declined your offer. That's a polite as you need to get in business. Find a better deal, take the better deal, make it as convenient for you as possible, however don't burn down any bridges you don't have to. As in a couple of years time, you may find you want to go back, especially if they've realised how much they miss you.

​

[u/JustaRandomOldGuy → u/_scorp_]

If your current company offers to match a new offer, remember how they are treating you now. I know people who took the match and after that it was back to the old treatment. If the commute is about the same, the new offer may be a better place. Agree with not burning bridges, if your current company counteroffers and you don't want it, just say "I already accepted the other job and I won't go back on that".

[u/plinkoplonka → u/ApostleO]

Get an offer, put in your notice and tell them you didn't want to quit, but believe you should be offered fair market salary.

If they want you, they'll counter.

[u/BucketsofDickFat → u/plinkoplonka]

Way to far down the list. This.

Do not threaten to leave. Just leave. Tell them "I love it here, but I found another company that values my abilities a bit more. Thank you for your time, etc".

It's a great way to call their bluff without making them feel manipulated.

[u/TheRealBigLou → u/BucketsofDickFat]

No! Not this! If they undervalue you now, they will undervalue you later. If they were willing to offer you more with another offer, why didn't they give you that to begin with?

[u/[deleted] → u/ApostleO]

Honestly, everyone should be doing this a couple times a year just to make sure you aren't underpaid. I do it and it's worked out really well for me.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You're applying for other jobs a couple times a year??

[u/Cautemoc → u/[deleted]]

Yeah but stay at a company for at least a year or two before leaving for another one. People can recognize patterns on employment history. Also come up with a better explanation for why you left than "I apply to other jobs a couple times a year fishing for higher salaries".

[u/pppancakes123 → u/[deleted]]

Yup. And also consider that interviewing is an actual skill. Loads of people who have worked years in the same company find it daunting to go back into the job search game and end up staying at their current job. Yearly interviews not only let you know how much you’re worth, but also let you learn new prerequisite for your career, interview styles and language.

[u/Jops817 → u/pppancakes123]

This was me. Had my first interview in almost a decade recently and bombed it simply because I hadn't trained that skill. I took it as practice and moved on.

[u/plinkoplonka → u/Jops817]

Great attitude to have.

[u/RussianTrumpOff2Jail → u/Jops817]

This is why I apply and interview for jobs I have no intention of taking, just want to work out the interview muscles.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

not multiple times a year though, you won't be hired. I am willing to pay a rising star their market worth even if I "know" in 3 years time they are likely to be jumping ship to a better opportunity. 3 years of quality service is something I can get behind, but not 6-12 months. No way I am hiring that person even if their background is stellar

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yes, exactly.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Aall well and good then, my only advice then is don't be stupid about it. Friend of mine was let go because of a "restructuring". Real reason was because they found out that some of his "meetings" were actually him going to interviews. He had no intention on leaving unless it was a really really really good offer. It wasn't, and he was let go from a job he really liked

[u/mrmangan → u/[deleted]]

This. Although I've been in the same company for the last 13 years, earlier in my career changing companies was the single best way for me to advance both my career and income. At the time, it wasn't really a strategy - I was just focusing on jobs that would give me the best chances to work different challenges, grow, and be interesting. But looking back, I never would have had the pay advancement staying at the same company.

[u/Bryvayne → u/[deleted]]

Can confirm. Worked somewhere two years and couldn't even get a cost-of-living adjustment. One new job later and I've got a 20% pay bump.

[u/j12 → u/[deleted]]

Yes. i would say this is pretty common and a smart thing to do.

[u/lostboyz → u/[deleted]]

I know this is personal finance, but some advice I'd like to see sometime is you can't always be chasing money.

I own a house close to where I work and am comfortable with a secure job. I'm not dumb-loyal to my company, but I'm not going to stress out like OPs scenario of just not getting the raise I wanted one time, or like you applying to jobs every year. Being comfortable, even if slightly under-paid is a good place to be as long as your skills are progressing, because if you do have to leave you are extremely marketable.

[u/[deleted] → u/lostboyz]

Well in OPs case I think we was talking about a 20-25k difference in pay. And that's going from 47k to 70k, not 140k to 160k. It is a large sum of money.

[u/bpetersonlaw → u/[deleted]]

My market value is between $60-75k based on the title I should have.

Yes, OP says his market value is higher. But until he looks around and receives an offer, it's just a guess. If someone offers OP $75K, great, take it. If OP spends 6 months looking for another position and can't get anything higher than his current salary, then OP was mistaken about his worth. But you don't know until you look.

[u/SkiingHard → u/ApostleO]

This^. Be smart. Build a great resume. Post it on your 3 job sites you prefer. Get a solid offer and come back to them with leverage. Get a raise or simply tell them they are loading good talent because you didn’t feel respected. Play the long game.

[u/SpewPewPew → u/ApostleO]

I second this idea - start applying for other jobs You never know what you're missing if you stay comfortable. It sounds like he tried and it's out of his control for that raise. He could be a great reference in the future.

[u/everestster → u/ApostleO]

Please note that if you receive a better offer from another company, don't ever think about accepting the counter offer from your current company (even if it is better than your new offer). Just leave and move on. It never works out very well.

[u/hypercube33 → u/ApostleO]

Also congrats on your -0.5% raise - cost of living goes up about 3% yearly so there's that.

[u/young_skywalk3r → u/ApostleO]

Best time to find a new job is when you have a job. It likely isn’t your manager’s fault, but you should keep your options open.

[u/gcashmoneymillionair → u/ApostleO]

This, start looking and move on when you get the chance.

[u/Veneboy → u/ApostleO]

This.... Quit when you have somewhere better to go.

[u/[deleted] → u/ApostleO]

Don't do that. Boss finds outs, offers a significant raise, and creates a backup plan if you try to do it again, which you will because you will never get a substantial raise again.

[u/Train3rRed88 → u/ApostleO]

Second this. At the end of the day, the only person that will truly care about your career is You. If your current company is leaving you disengaged, quietly begin a search on LinkedIn to see if something is better out there.

Everyone should know their worth. If you find out the grass isn’t that much greener you will know to tread lightly with this job, if you find that you are in high demand you can negotiate with confidence, or just take a different job for your career growth

[u/fatfuck33 → u/ApostleO]

Job hopping for a higher salary is an essential life skill that will greatly increase your average salary.

[u/[deleted] → u/ApostleO]

That's just good general advice for your career, insurance, and more.