r/geography • u/villehhulkkonen • 1d ago

La is a wasted opportunity Discussion

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Imagine if Los Angeles was built like Barcelona. Dense 15 million people metropolis with great public transportation and walkability.

They wasted this perfect climate and perfect place for city by building a endless suburban sprawl.

38.2k Upvotes

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u/Krazdone 1d ago

This sounds like someone who has never been to LA. "Perfect Climate"? LA was built on practically desert with billions needing to be invested in water infrastracture to support the population.

And yes, shocker, the city that developed in tandem with the growth of the automobile and the oil industry is a car-centric city.

Im all for dreaming, but there is a reason why Barcelona is the way it is, and LA is the way it is.

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u/Professional_Wish972 1d ago

I seriously doubt you've been to LA. It has incredible weather for most of the year.

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u/SpiritAnimalDoggy 1d ago

As with most people commenting in this thread

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u/Professional_Wish972 1d ago

Reddit is just a cesspool like that. People who haven't had any experience with anything commenting like know it alls and getting upvoted by similar people. Then people who know nothing upvote anything that has upvotes because "damn that must be right".

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u/CitrusBelt 1d ago

Basically everywhere in the greater Los Angeles area is more or less fine year-round, aside from extremes of weather (maybe two weeks worth per year) if you're not a complete idiot, unless you're renting from a slumlord.

Like....you either have a/c that works well enough, or you live in a house without a/c that was built for it (thick plaster walls, thick windows, etc.), or you're not really dealing with high temps in the first place. Or you're too goddamn dumb to make any of those three work for you.

Death Valley? Palm Springs? Yeah, those are a different ballgame.

But anything west of the 215 ain't bad, compared to what mlst of the rest of the U.S. has to put up with.

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u/Earl-of-Grey 1d ago

It has incredible weather, and not enough water to support the 10+ million residents that live in surrounding areas. This has been the case since the turn of the last century when the city began drawing water from upstate.

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u/Lindberg47 1d ago

No 10+ million city has its own supply of water to support itself.

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u/Zapatoamor 1d ago

I loved my time in LA. I do remember a 10-14 day period in February in the 90’s where it was gray and rainy. OMG, the depression and grumpy moods. Went to college in LA, too, and never had to wear long pants for 4 years.

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u/Stjornur 1d ago

I've lived my entire life in LA county. I despise the weather here and its always been one of the main reasons for me to want to leave. IMO it's way too hot and dry all year for my preference. There's a 3-4 month span each summer where there's basically not a single cloud in the sky and it's between 90-120 degrees every single day (peak was 117 this year I think)

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u/YingPaiMustDie 1d ago

LA county… lol. Nice specification. I’ll bet you live in a place like Lancaster, which would be a much different experience than someone living in, oh, I dunno, Malibu…

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u/Suchafatfatcat 1d ago

More likely, the valley. That tends to be the hottest weather in LA county. And, way more people live in the valley than in Malibu.

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u/Stjornur 1d ago

San fernando valley and Santa Clarita are where I spend most my days

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u/GenericAccount13579 1d ago

South of the Santa Monica mountains is dramatically different

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u/dc21111 1d ago

I took Topanga to the beach one day in the summer. Was 105 in Woodland Hills, drove 15 minutes toward the coast and it was 85.

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u/Stjornur 1d ago

Yeah I mean of course anywhere along a coast will have dramatic impacts on the stability of weather but good luck affording that real estate, ya know?

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u/Cappuccino45 1d ago

This might surprise you, but when people talk about good weather they’re talking about the parts with good weather. Not the valley dawg lmfao

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u/Critical_Concert_689 1d ago

lol...

"When I said the area was NICE, I meant from the top of my super-yacht and from how well the butler serviced me at the 5-star resort I own."

Seriously, bro? You can't pick and choose locations with the most ideal weather and then say the weather is good there.

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u/Cappuccino45 1d ago

Lmao get real. Not everywhere with “the good weather” is Manhattan Beach or PV. Are people parking yachts in Gardena?

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

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u/Wentailang 1d ago

Quebec gets a lot of fires. Do you think they're a too hot to live? Fire is about dry, not hot.

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u/korvolga 1d ago

In Sweden We dont even have 2 months summer 🤣

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u/theamathamhour 1d ago

In fact, "June gloom" is persistent and annoying as fuck. May until late July is mostly gray days for a good part of LA .

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u/Harry_Callahan_sfpd 1d ago

If incredible means mild, then yes. But the lack of real seasons and the perpetual sunshine is not everyone’s cup of tea. 80 degrees on New Year’s Day just feels wrong.

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u/FuckTheStateofOhio 1d ago

"Perfect Climate"? LA was built on practically desert

Have you been to LA? Everything west of the mountains along the coast is pretty much as good as it gets weatherwise and not at all a desert.

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u/TypicalSherbet77 1d ago

Have you lived in LA? Because I did. For 38 years.

July-October it is miserable to be outside. There are stretches of 105+ degree weather that last for weeks. Sometimes, the power goes out during that time and there’s NOTHING you can do to cool off except sit in a shallow cold bath.

So many people bought into the fallacy and moved to LA that it’s crowded, with no trees, and all asphalt. There are watering restrictions due to drought, and sometimes during the summer, the air quality is so bad (from illegal fireworks or ever present wild fires) that it’s unhealthy to be outside.

“Everything west of the mountains”….what…the sliver of land between mountain and ocean called Malibu? Which was just ravaged by wildfire (again)?

San Diego, however, does indeed have perfect weather. I think you are thinking of San Diego.

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u/Decent-Rule6393 1d ago

San Diego is also not the perfect weather people think it is. It’s great if you are within 4 miles of the coast, but many people live further inland than that. It hits 90-100 degrees in the summer all the time in the inland suburbs.

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u/vips7L 1d ago

I can’t imagine living in the valley or LA proper with the heat. I live in Santa Monica and the weather is pretty perfect. 

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u/funkekat61 23h ago

The weather in Santa Monica is amazing! Never truly cold and max 1-2 weeks of too hot.

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u/Harry_Callahan_sfpd 1d ago

It’s not far off from being a desert, though. Average rainfall is less than 15” per year for most places in LA. That plus the evaporation rates due to the warm climate make LA basically a semi-desert — not a true desert, but not far off. The native landscape before all the aqueduct and all the irrigation was pretty barren.

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u/VulGerrity 1d ago

Desert doesn't mean hot, it means dry. It doesn't rain there, it's a desert.

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u/FuckTheStateofOhio 1d ago

It rains too much there to be a desert. Places like Rome and Athens also get very little rain but are not considered the desert climate classification, they are Mediterranean like most of coastal California is including LA.

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u/VulGerrity 1d ago

My mistake, you are correct.

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u/DankeSebVettel 1d ago

I live in Pasadena which is as mountainy as you get and it is still hot as balls in the summer. I went to the UK and it was like stepping into the garden of Eden. It even rained!!!

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u/ImperialRedditer 1d ago

Because California isn’t the same climate as England. California is the same climate as southern Italy to Southern Spain. And those aren’t desert as people describe LA.

In fact, before the suburbs, most of LA County was fruit orchards and that’s before water was piped to the county

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u/Celtic_Legend 1d ago

Yeah most people would describe england and raining as not perfect weather. Wet and cold most of the year isnt really the popular opinion of good weather

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u/Flat_Professional_55 1d ago

It is when you see the rest of the world getting cooked every summer.

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u/Krazdone 1d ago

Work in a warehouse in California for a few months in the summer and you'll change your opinion very quickly.

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u/FuckTheStateofOhio 1d ago

I'd rather work in a warehouse in coastal LA than pretty much anywhere else in the country during the summer. The only areas I'd rank higher are also in coastal California.

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u/Krazdone 1d ago

My last job before leaving California was in a warehouse. Literally right on the water, I could see the SF Bay out of my window.

Despite having the A/C on full blast, we had to change our work hours in the summer by starting two hours earlier, and getting out before we got toasted alive in the evenings. Most of us were working shirtless. The A/C systems were regularly inspected because if it broke down, the buisness would shut down untill it was fixed.

Haven't done warehouse work since i moved to the Midwest, but the climate here is MUCH more bareable in the summers. You can bundle up as much as you want, but there is only so much you can get undressed.

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u/FuckTheStateofOhio 1d ago

Unless you're in UP I don't see how in the hell you could ever say the Midwest has a more tolerable summer climate than the Bay Area. I live in SF and it's 60-70 degrees every day in the summer with very little variance. Chicago averaged over 80 degrees for months at a time with several days over 90. Like it's such an unbelievable statement that I question if you ever have actually lived a summer in the Bay.

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u/Chicago1871 1d ago

I mean the midwest is definitely more than Chicago, like duluth and the twin cities.

So he very well could be somewhere colder than Chicago in the summer.

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u/FuckTheStateofOhio 1d ago

Fair, but there isn't anywhere in the country that is cooler in the summer than SF. Any city that touches the Bay is going to be cooler than a Midwestern city on average in the summer.

This is less about Chicago and the different Midwestern cities and more about my questioning how a warehouse in a place that's consistently 60-70 degrees had to change their work hours due to heat. The whole story sounds extremely unlikely unless there's something we're missing.

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u/_netflixandshill 1d ago

Yeah maybe he meant the inland extremes of the bay like Antioch, where it’s 20 degrees warmer than SF.

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u/FuckTheStateofOhio 1d ago

Antioch doesn't touch the Bay though, and he said he could see the Bay from his window.

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u/Chicago1871 1d ago

I get what youre saying but I immediately thought “what about alaska? Or seattle?” When you said nowhere is cooler than SF in summer?

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u/Krazdone 1d ago

California having an average temperature of 60-70 in the summer? Are you high?

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u/funkekat61 23h ago edited 23h ago

Only if you live within a mile or two of the coast would that be mostly accurate.

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u/Krazdone 1d ago

thats the difference: San Fransisco. San Fransisco is an absolute anomaly compared to the rest of the Bay, or California in general. Anyone who lives in the Bay would know that.

The amount of days where it was 70 in San Fransisco, and 90+ in the East Bay is absolutly crazy.

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u/_netflixandshill 1d ago

Yeah SF is in the coast, that’s not an anomaly, that’s what coastal towns are like. Honestly even Oakland and Berkeley are 70’s with patchy fog most of summer. Yeah Concord, Alamo, etc are 90, but those are in inland valleys

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u/FuckTheStateofOhio 1d ago

Anywhere in the East Bay where you could "see the water from your window" is only going to be at most 10 degrees warmer than SF. If you go over the hills into places like Lafayette or Walnut Creek then yes, it gets hot in the summer (although it's a dry heat). On the Bay though? At most it's going to average in the 70s during the summer.

The daily high in Oakland in July is 73°. Berkeley is 73°. Richmond is 72°. I'd take that 10/10 times over any city in the Midwest.

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u/varangian_guards 1d ago

hot does not equal desert, and try that same thing in Houston, and you will change your mind again.

Houston is also not a desert just fyi.

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u/ArmageddonRetrospect 1d ago

I live there and it's definitely a desert

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u/FuckTheStateofOhio 1d ago

Mediterranean climate is a far cry from desert climate. Drive 2 hours east from the coast if you want to see a desert climate.

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u/meatatarian 1d ago

It's so easy to verify the official climate. LA is classified as Mediterranean, not a desert. Certain parts of the city get pretty hot in the summer (i.e. the Valley), but other parts rarely get above 90F (i.e. San Pedro). Sure, LA has mismanaged its water and it's a shame LA is 70% single-family-homes. But the city is not a desert and it can be sustainable with the right changes.

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u/jmlinden7 1d ago

It's not actually a desert but it's very close. 'Practically desert' is a fair description

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u/4dpsNewMeta 1d ago

Los Angeles is not a desert and it's not even practically a desert. It has a Mediterranean climate with wet winters and dry summers - precipitation is inconsistent, but it certainly rains and when it rains, it can rain a lot. In fact, modern Los Angeles sits atop a well-watered floodplain - fed by the Los Angeles, San Gabriel, and Santa Anna. The landscape used to be dominated by marshes, wetlands, and thick, bountiful oak forests that bounded the banks of the river. The problem was that Los Angeles rivers would flood violently, and would flood an extremely large area - hence, they were artificially constrained through urban aqueducts and viaducts to control their flow to protect people, property, and expand the city. The majority of Los Angeles counties populated areas are now sitting on these former wetlands and riparian areas. You can catch glimpses of the historic flow and potential of Los Angeles freshwater river systems, like in this photo of the normally dry L.A river during a storm in Feb 2024

Los Angeles used to rely on these river systems for it's freshwater, and still get's 1/3 of it's water from local sources, but yes, it's an absolutely massive metropolis so water infrastructure is needed to support it's supply from nearby mountains and the Colorado River. But this is the same with a lot of cities: NYC is in a state with bountiful freshwater resources, but it gets its water from aqueducts coming from upstate. Water management and infrastructure is necessary with any human settlement.

This is a beautiful picture of a natural park in Pasadena, showing, roughly, what the landscape probably looked like before massive European settlement. Certainly not desert.

And this is a photo of snow in the San Gabriel mountains, directly to the north of modern Los Angeles. This snow melt is what fed the LA Basin's formerly great rivers.

This is a photo of the preserved Ballona wetlands. Much of modern Los Angeles county was marshy, because it was basically a massive, flat floodplain.

https://preview.redd.it/kts60xh9j89e1.jpeg?width=700&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8307961441c6d7369b82f27bc6223bd71a63d335

And this is what the absolutely majestic and beautiful extensive, riparian oak forests probably looked like. These oak trees provided a bountiful supply of acorns which supported relatively large populations of California Native Americans. Imagine being a Spanish explorer coming across this land after travelling through the Chihuahua, Sonora, or Mojave deserts. A land of mild, warm temperatures, sunny weather, ocean breezes, towering oaks, massive wetlands, ponds, and gorgeous mountains. They certainly would not view it as, "practically a desert", or a place where you shouldn't settle.

Sorry for the long post but the natural environment of Southern California is severely misunderstood, and your comment reflected a common attitude that I really dislike. Los Angeles sits on a beautiful land, possibly, the most beautiful natural environment in the entire world.

People should live here, and it has potential to be the greatest place to live in the world! It is improving, and the places in Greater Los Angeles that reflect this natural heritage, while being walkable, and generally great urban design, are true gems.

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u/gRod805 1d ago

What city has not invested billions to support its population whether it's because it gets too cold in the winter, too hot in the summer, gets too much rain or not enough rain. And no LA is not a desert

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u/caustictoast 1d ago

"Perfect Climate"?

Yeah LA does have that actually

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u/villehhulkkonen 1d ago

Yes this happened because of automobile and oil industry. Everyone knows that.

The point is, that the result is terrible.

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u/Theresabearoutside 1d ago

What’s your criteria for “terrible”? I agree LA is ugly AF and un walkable but you’re ignoring the main reason it was zoned and developed the way it was. The car had nothing to do with it. Everyone wanted a single family detached house and that results in sprawl. If your criteria is delivering what the market wanted, single family housing, the result is a huge success

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u/Suchafatfatcat 1d ago

I think people are overlooking that sprawl exists because people kept moving away from the densely populated areas and cars simply made this much easier since they no longer had to depend on mass transit such as trolleys and streetcars. The same thing has happened in many cities across the country, like Atlanta and Washington DC. Some people don’t mind living crammed in like sardines. Some even prefer living cheek and jowl with others. But, most people, given an option, will choose a home with a yard and accept car-dependence.

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u/Theresabearoutside 1d ago

I think that’s the dream of most people. My neighborhood is full of Chinese and Indian immigrants on work visas all living in nice suburban homes. They seem happy as clams doing it

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u/jw_swede 1d ago

You don’t have to build your city with a lazy grid just because you want to build houses.

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u/AmuseDeath 20h ago

I agree. It makes more sense that the desire of owning your own home made cars more necessary than the other way around (I'm going to buy a house because I have a car!). If people simply forgoed home ownership and instead were okay with living in denser apartments, we wouldn't have the sprawl today and we cars would be less necessary.

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u/Krazdone 1d ago

If it wasn't for the oil industry, Los Angeles would NEVER be the city it is today. The only reason there are people in the area is because LA was an early epicenter for oil drilling. Without it, LA is a small town.

Furthermore, 2 of the United States biggest ports are located in the US, the two biggest on the west coast, both of which exceed the port of Barcelona in terms of cargo volume. Something like 70-80% of imports from Asia to the US pass through one of those two ports. You simply aren't able to have shipping of that volume without car-centric infrastrcture.

I love the idea of walkability. It was a huge shock moving to America from a place where no one in my family owned a car. That being said it pisses me off to no end when people dont understand that a lot of things that worked in Europe wouldn't work in America.

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u/johnny_ringo 1d ago

you simply aren't able to have shipping of that volume without car-centric infrastrcture.

say what now

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u/MissionHairyPosition 1d ago

You don't know that port infrastructure is the key component that dictates neighborhood design?!

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u/Magneto88 1d ago

You’re more than able to have large ports without car-friendly infrastructure. There’s plenty in Europe. It’s only the port facilities and connection to the motorway system that needs to be car friendly.

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u/paraplume 1d ago

Your first statement can apply to any major city:
"If it wasn't for the tech industry, San Jose would NEVER be the city it is today."
"If it wasn't for being the capital, DC would NEVER be the city it is today."
"If it wasn't for the oil industry, Edmonton/Riyadh/Abu Dhabi would NEVER be the city it is today."
"If it wasn't for the British empire, London would NEVER be the city it is today."
"If it wasn't for Hong Kong, Shenzhen would NEVER be the city it is today."

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u/Theresabearoutside 1d ago

Light industry is what really built LA. And that was started from aerospace industry. LA was just a small city until the Second World War sparked demand for airplanes

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u/stonecoldsoma 1d ago

A small city until WWII? By 1930, LA was the 5th largest city in the US (bigger than SF, Boston, and DC) after reaching the 10th largest in 1920. Hell, it hosted its first Olympics in 1932, which were a success despite the Great Depression.

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u/dansedemorte 1d ago

I think if european cities would have been built during the industrial revolution and had no prior settlements beforehand theyd look just like the US cities.

Instead you had lots of left over, usuable infrastructure from the past 2000-3000 years that constrained new construction.

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u/JaimeeLannisterr 1d ago

Most cities in Europe developed after the industrial revolution. Most of the suburbs you see were built after it. The "ancient European cities" people are referring to are mostly the city centres

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u/ColdInMinnesooota 21h ago

for whatever reasons there's a massive astroturf operation to make many americans think that the next "step" is to convert america to europe in these regards, which frankly is never going to happen. most americans enjoy having a car and we're too geographically diverse to have metropolitanism as the standard in even half our cities.

in 150 years? perhaps. in 15? no way.

reddit mods, please remove "fcars" from being constantly mentioned, i don't know where they came from but i constantly see them and post like that bashing cars everyday now - which is new.

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u/Roguemutantbrain 1d ago

Is your argument that the whole city needs to be car centric because of the ports? For like trucks and stuff? I don’t really get that. Other, busier ports in the US don’t have fourty thousand square miles of urban sprawl. Some are in nearly rural areas and still work perfectly fine as ports.

Other countries have far more walkable cities with even busier ports. I just don’t understand the connections you’re making.

LA is car centric because it developed as an endless series of small cities planned around cars. They are actively working to try and change that now. There’s not enough going into property making LA accessible, but you can bet that almost every planner is working on stuff to make it better.

Your point just comes across like there is no way LA could have been or could ever be different. The fact that it could have been and could still be is the tragedy.

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u/ColdInMinnesooota 21h ago

"Your point just comes across like there is no way LA could have been or could ever be different. The fact that it could have been and could still be is the tragedy."

this is making a bunch of assumptions and is basically rewriting history - there are many many reasons why this never happened.

i really dont' get when we get so-called "urbanists" who come here and start criticizing, as if the whole car revolution at the time wasn't a godsend for most people at the time. kids - please read some history

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u/Roguemutantbrain 17h ago

That’s such a blanket statement. How much a “godsend” was it for people living in West Oakland? How about for the people living in the Treme in New Orleans? What about people who don’t have full use of their legs? Basically rewriting history my ass.

The reality is that the car revolution did immense damage to cities. Almost every planner I’ve ever met firmly believes this and got into urban planning to right that wrong. I know a lot of planners because I’m an architect. I work with them all the time.

Like, what parts of cities in Europe and Asia wouldn’t work here? Having buildings built without side yard setbacks? Improvements to commuter rail? Raised platform bus stations? Reducing FAR limitations? If you’re such an expert, break it down champ. Those are literally all initiatives that LA is specifically implementing.

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u/RoostasTowel 1d ago

A picture of tokyo sprawling forever is also at the front page right now.

But its treated as amazing.

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u/curtcolt95 1d ago

that the result is terrible

*in your opinion

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u/Tommy_Wisseau_burner 1d ago

How the fuck is it terrible people can literally use the technology that allows them to live optimally? Do y’all really say “damn I really need to get my typewriter out so I can send this message to my mom 100 miles away via carrier pigeon”?

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u/LeverageSynergies 1d ago

It’s some of the most expensive realestate in the country.

“The result is terrible” is extremely subjective and the majority of the country would disagree

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u/bcbum 1d ago

I think most people agree sprawl sucks.

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u/Earl-of-Grey 1d ago

Homeowners who want to live in a quiet neighborhood with a backyard don’t seem to mind. And yeah, there are millions and millions of them in LA.

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u/VirtualCustomer4170 Cartography 1d ago

Result is terrible compared to similar climate cities in different countries

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u/LeverageSynergies 1d ago

Again, “terrible” is subjective.

One could make an argument that the weather is great, and it’s extremely accessible by car.

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u/VirtualCustomer4170 Cartography 1d ago

If you’re trying to imply that the weather doesn’t affect the citys progression then you’re wrong. The climate is a major factor in ’creating’ cities, it can provide pleasant living conditions therefore getting more people to move there and doesn’t require types of infastructure to be built for severe weather conditions.

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u/LeverageSynergies 1d ago

I’m trying to imply that “terrible” is subjective, that that we should be specific with the tangible things that we don’t like (ex: not walkable, or lack of public transportation, or endless concrete with no nature)

“terrible” is just a vague, non descriptive opinion

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u/Guccimayne 1d ago

Reads like you just learned about LA from wikipedia

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u/Docxm 1d ago

LA proper was definitely not desert, it's in a great basin area surrounded by mountains with a decent watershed. Once you get past the first range, yeah it's kind of deserty.

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u/CommentsOnOccasion 1d ago

LA is not a desert. It’s near a desert climate but it’s got mountains separating it from the actual deserts

Aqueducts didn’t make LA have the Mediterranean climate it does - the mountains running down the coastline combined with its latitude makes the weather extremely pleasant most of the year