Good Job WotC

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

[u/ecologamer]

Wasn’t the eye and hand of vecna things well before they actually created the backstory of vecna? Like his eye and hand were super powerful items, but that was it about the info on vecna. Or am I misremembering the sequence of events

[u/Laranna → u/ecologamer]

That is 100% right. Vecna was always a Lich but his eye and hand appeared before he did. Probably an Evil PC from one of the creators home games

(Like Mordenkanen, Tenser, & Elminster)

[u/Git777 → u/Laranna]

No, Vecna is an anagram of Vance, as in Jack Vance the author of the Dying Earth series, which is where DnD lifted it's magic system from. Jack Vance is a white dude.

[u/TobiasCB → u/Git777]

Fun fact! The requirement of preparing spells and then forgetting them after casting is called Vancian magic, also named after Jack Vance. In D&D you see this in spellcasters who need to prepare their spells, and lore wise it's how magic the gathering works.

[u/Schackrattan87 → u/TobiasCB]

Huh! I didn't know that about magic lore. You learn something new every day. :)

[u/felix_the_nonplused → u/Schackrattan87]

In the dying earth books, wizards had to capture demons in geometric thought prisons. When you cast the spell you’re pointing the demon at one weak spot in the construction and out pops the spell effect. Then the demon is gone and you have to reseal a new one in.

Needless to say this was much more dangerous in the books than when it was borrowed for DnD. As a result wizards also carried guns for most of their combat needs. Guns usually don’t try and crawl out of your soul through your eyeballs.

[u/Ed2Cute → u/felix_the_nonplused]

"Usually"? Even once is too many.

[u/MorriganIsMiffed → u/Ed2Cute]

We don't talk about Gun Eye McGee.

[u/JesusSavesForHalf → u/MorriganIsMiffed]

But it such a good story!

[u/cheesenuggets2003 → u/Ed2Cute]

Clearly you haven't needed a gun more than you needed your eyes to stay seated.

[u/KENBONEISCOOL444 → u/TobiasCB]

Forgetting the spells? Why would someone forget their spell after casting it?

[u/Dodgimusprime → u/KENBONEISCOOL444]

I assume its something along the lines of imagine preparing your spells by separating the components or whatever into little sandwich bags and writing "fireball" with a marker on one, and "hold person" on another. As the wizard, you reach in, cast the spell, and next time you go to cast it, you see the bag is gone and, because youre smart and know how magic works, think "well, must have cast that one already... explains why everything is on fire"

[u/NietszcheIsDead08 → u/Dodgimusprime]

Alternative explanation: Casting times for certain spells (like fireball) are several minutes to an hour. However, you can do most of the casting beforehand, and then in combat just nudge the last component into place or utter the final syllable or whatever, and the spell goes off — but now, you need to spend another 35 minutes preparing the next fireball. So, you can prepare so many spells first thing in the morning, and any time you have down time, but until you take the time to cast most of the spell “fireball”, you don’t have a loaded and prepped fireball ready to cast at a moment’s notice.

[u/Dodgimusprime → u/NietszcheIsDead08]

So each preparation is essentially like setting catapult or loading a crossbow, and you trigger the final piece any time later and behold, spell. (Only more effort and time involved to "reload")

[u/submortimer → u/Dodgimusprime]

You are loading up your brain gun with mind bullets.

That's telekinesis, Kyle.

[u/Amateur-Alchemist → u/submortimer]

RIP Tenacious D

[u/thehaarpist → u/NietszcheIsDead08]

IIRC that's the lore behind why that one summoner lady in Goblin Slayer speaks in that weird halting way. Having dozens of spells prepped and constantly making sure she doesn't accidentally just blow a fireball into a bar while ordering a beer

[u/0c4rt0l4 → u/NietszcheIsDead08]

It's the explanation I've aways used before, when DnD had a real vancian magic system. Now, spell slots are more akin to generic mana, so I never used it anymore

[u/ChrisRevocateur → u/NietszcheIsDead08]

This was essentially the assumed way it worked in 2e and earlier. When preparing spells, it took a certain amount of time depending on the level of every single spell you're memorizing. It wasn't until 3e that preparing spells just became a 1 hour to read your spellbook and refresh your memory kind of thing.

[u/KENBONEISCOOL444 → u/Dodgimusprime]

Oohh what makes sense

[u/Barl3000 → u/Dodgimusprime]

I think I saw a different explanation in an older supplement book. The actual spell is a longer ritual affair to cast, taking several seconds or minutes to cast. So to get around this Wizards go through and begins casting the spells they can each evening, only leaving out the last trigger phrase and/or gestures.

So they are essentially holding in a lot of rituals, being almost done. Personally I didn't like this much and instead imagine it slightly different where preparing spells is the caster gathering in raw magic, the wizard has to shape it into specific forms and sorcerers can keep it in raw form, as their natural ability attunes it to more specific forms when casting. Bards and similar, I see as more having learned only specific forms to store the raw magic as.

[u/FlamingTacoFury → u/KENBONEISCOOL444]

In Dying Earth it's explained that casters can only fit so many spells into their head at one time. That magic itself is so alien to people that utilizing the spells frazzles it from your mind. Dying Earth was post apocalyptic in a sense. It was a fantasy world but it was our world at one point. The basis of magic was explained to be mathematics, but most casters hadn't even knowledge of algebra. Very cool and very inventive for its time.

[u/felix_the_nonplused → u/KENBONEISCOOL444]

In the dying earth books, wizards had to capture demons in geometric thought prisons. When you cast the spell you’re pointing the demon at one weak spot in the construction and out pops the spell effect. Then the demon is gone and you have to reseal a new one in.

Needless to say this was much more dangerous in the books than when it was borrowed for DnD. As a result wizards also carried guns for most of their combat needs. Guns usually don’t try and crawl out of your soul through your eyeballs.

[u/KENBONEISCOOL444 → u/felix_the_nonplused]

Damn that's kinda badass. I should read those books

[u/xthorgoldx → u/KENBONEISCOOL444]

The exact explanation depends on the setting, but in Forgotten Realms it's because spellcasting is an act of temporarily capturing a force of nature and then releasing it under specific conditions for a desired effect.

It's less that the mage forgets how to cast the spell as "It is not possible for the mortal mind to do it from memory." Cantrips, by definition, are spells that are simple enough to memorize.

[u/Ishkabo → u/KENBONEISCOOL444]

They don’t forget the spell existed or that they cast it. It’s not amnesia. It’s just that the “spell” is not a normal thought or memory it’s magically charged and alive in a sense and far too big and complex to truly comprehend. When a wizard casts the spell the extra dimensional magical construct that gives the spell power is exhausted/expelled.

[u/EncabulatorTurbo → u/KENBONEISCOOL444]

vanciian D&D magic, a spell is a living construction of energy within your mind that you need to work through until you can understand it, and then hold the epiphany of what it is in your mind, it's not just knowledge, its a living thing, and once expended, the knowledge is gone - the knowledge of how to recreate that living construct of arcane geometry in your mind isn't gone though

[u/captaindoctorpurple → u/KENBONEISCOOL444]

Because it's gone.

[u/ConstructorDeCrit → u/KENBONEISCOOL444]

Always understood is at "magic is so complex that a mortal mind cannot truly retain it". So you prepare a spell, a process which would allow you to keep it temporarily in your mind, and once you cast it your mind is free of that burden. Of course, you still remember how to prepare the spell tomorrow...

[u/Laranna → u/Git777]

Oh shit, your 100% right friendo. My b My b. The Anagrm oart alipped my mind because i fixated on the PC aspect of the other of the Circle of 9

[u/DracoNinja11 → u/Laranna]

Slight correction. Elminster is forgotten realms and Ed Greenwood, whilst the other two are Greyhawk and Gygax.

[u/Laranna → u/DracoNinja11]

Yeah, there wasnt q good way for me to add that Elmin is Ed’s boy long after Gygax and his tables shenanigans with Tenser and Greyhawk stuff

[u/Slightly_Smaug → u/Laranna]

Melf as well. Which is short for Male Elf.

[u/USAisntAmerica → u/Slightly_Smaug]

Nope, but this gets repeated over and over anyway.

Even when the character's creator tried to remove the false factoid from wikipedia others kept adding it back

[u/Zerus_heroes → u/Laranna]

Elminster isn't exactly the same. He certainly was a DnD character but Ed Greenwood actually created him as a little kid long before he created Forgotten Realms and played DnD.

[u/Nice_Secret_4791 → u/Laranna]

Who is Tenser?

[u/Laranna → u/Nice_Secret_4791]

Tenser’s floating Disc and Tenser’s transformation

[u/BlackFenrir → u/ecologamer]

This is correct, and the only reason why Vecna being in Eddie's campaign in Stranger Things makes sense, since that season is set in 1987, and the Vecna campaign didn't come out until a few years later but the items did exist.

[u/AzraelTheMage → u/BlackFenrir]

Stanger Things plays fast and loose with when things were released. Someone did the math and Master of Puppets likely only came out a mere two weeks before the episode it appeared in takes place. You have to really suspend your disbelief for these things in that show.

[u/BlackFenrir → u/AzraelTheMage]

I'm aware, haha. I like to think someone in that D&D campaign Eddie ran will eventually write the 1989(? correct me on the year) canon Vecna campaign that would lead into 2e.

[u/[deleted] → u/AzraelTheMage]

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[u/project_matthex → u/AzraelTheMage]

Master of Puppets likely only came out a mere two weeks before the episode it appeared in takes place

Hey, Eddie's just that good on the guitar. Heard it once, maybe twice, and was able to play it.

[u/AzraelTheMage → u/project_matthex]

That's not the part that's odd. I've know plenty of musicians that could learn a song by listening to it a few times. It's just how close to when he plays it that it came out.

[u/ShadowfoxDrow → u/AzraelTheMage]

To be fair, of you've known any highschool metalheads, and with the popularity and riff power of Metallica, it's not unrealistic for him to be all over a new release. Especially for Master of Puppets.

[u/Mamoswole → u/AzraelTheMage]

Nah, i can def see kids that loved the band back then being able to get it down in a week. Get yourself a tape and keep replaying until you have it as close as you can

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/ecologamer]

No that is right

[u/nihilistplant]

mamma mia, Vecna was italian confirmed

[u/TomaRedwoodVT → u/nihilistplant]

The hand of vecna permanently in the Italian position, mamma Mia

[u/RoyalMobile3996 → u/TomaRedwoodVT]

Properties of the italian hand:

• your strenght is 20 when holding a fork
• melee attacks you make with the hand deal extra 2d8 pasta damage
• the hand has 8 charges and can cast the following spells: lasagna of death, post lunch nap, teleport to the nearest pizzeria.

[u/StingerAE → u/RoyalMobile3996]

Downside curse: you are rendered mute if hand is restrained.  All spells with verbal conponent gain somatic component if they don't already have one.

[u/ExoditeDragonLord → u/StingerAE]

Secondary downside curse: the breaking of spaghetti over a pot of water within 30 feet requires three death saves made at disadvantage.

[u/Reality-Straight → u/ExoditeDragonLord]

Nah, it requieres a wisdom dc 16 save against going berserk

[u/Shedart → u/RoyalMobile3996]

Dont forget the offensive spell that always fills you up: magic rissole 

[u/thiros101 → u/RoyalMobile3996]

But can it be used to commune with the flying spaghetti monster?

[u/RoyalMobile3996 → u/thiros101]

The eye maybe could be used for that

[u/sonderlostscribe → u/TomaRedwoodVT]

You dropped this, friend. 🤌

[u/Egghopper2]

Okay but have you considered that Vecna writes his own books to whitewash himself?

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Okay so explanation, in the adventure module Vecna: Eve of ruin it gives a picture of Vecna before he became a lich, and he is some Draco Malfoy looking guy. However, in lore he was a member of a people known as the Flan who are described as having "bronze-colored complexion, varying from a light copper shade to a deep brown hue. Eyes are typically dark brown, black, brown, or amber. Their wavy or curly hair is usually black, brown-black, dark brown, or brown."

Also, his mother, named Mazell, was described as "Mazell was a slender, mature woman with bronze skin, black hair, dark eyes, and tattoos on her face, neck, arms, and chest."

So, it's likely that Vecna would have some of these traits as well and not be so pasty and blonde. The only way I can see him being white would be if he was mixed raced which is possible, but it should be mentioned his mother lived in a Flan city so it's unlikely.

But anyways I don't actually think this was purposeful by the writers or the artist, I think they just didn't know the lore for Vecna and just made him look like that because they felt like it.

[u/Mathblasta → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

This is great, but straight up belongs in a "Jesse what the fuck are you talking about" meme lol

[u/Littlepanda115 → u/Mathblasta]

Hm...

https://i.imgur.com/Ezzf1i6.jpeg

Yeah, you right

[u/Mathblasta → u/Littlepanda115]

Thank you for being the change I want to see in the world.

[u/AgentPastrana → u/Mathblasta]

It won't let me download it on mobile lol, I'm sad

[u/Littlepanda115 → u/AgentPastrana]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m6tkXrG_EFr6obdgMcEXNWABY3JMr_ge/view?usp=drivesdk

Here ya go, lmao

[u/AgentPastrana → u/Littlepanda115]

A true hero

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Littlepanda115]

based

[u/Littlepanda115 → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Gotta get the quality information out there, thank you for informing us xD

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Littlepanda115]

Yeah no problem, I love sharing obscure lore after I do a deep dive, it's fun

[u/John-Doe-lost → u/Littlepanda115]

Oh hello there :)

[u/Littlepanda115 → u/John-Doe-lost]

Well, well, well. If it isn't my arch-nemisis...

We meet, under the most unusual of circumstances, yes?

Yessss...

/s

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Mathblasta]

True but reason why I did this template because I was literally about to go to sleep when I thought about it.

[u/LavenRose210 → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

they just made him look like Sauron as Annatar

[u/KingoftheMongoose → u/LavenRose210]

Or No. 1 from Stranger Things. <cough cough> Vecna.

[u/bittermixin → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

bit misleading. the 2022 Vecna Dossier gives Vecna an entirely different origin to his Greyhawk counterpart. it's not like the kept the part about him being from the Flan and just ignored the fact that they have darker skin. although admittedly, i find the Greyhawk lore more interesting. they even make a note of it on the wiki.

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/bittermixin]

The Greyhawk lore is super cool

[u/McCaffeteria → u/bittermixin]

How is this misleading? He was depicted one way in the past, and they depicted him a new way later. Whether or not they retconned more of his backstory is irrelevant (and might even make it worse).

[u/bittermixin → u/McCaffeteria]

i just think the suggestion that he was deliberately 'whitewashed' is misleading, and doesn't make a whole lot of sense anyway when you consider how much of the 2024 artwork celebrates diversity.

[u/Max_G04 → u/McCaffeteria]

But one is Vecna from the Greyhawk universe, while the other is Vecna from the Forgotten Realms Universe.

[u/starcoffinXD → u/Max_G04]

They are the same Vecna, there's a note in the DMG that gods like Tharizdun and Vecna have "transcended their origin on [Greyhawk] to impact the broader multiverse."

[u/Ronisoni14 → u/Max_G04]

both take place in the same universe, they're just different planets, there's literally an entire official setting about that...

[u/BecomeAnAstronaut → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Im sorry, but they were part of a group called the Flan? Were they gelatinous dairy desserts?

[u/MrCookie2099 → u/BecomeAnAstronaut]

Flan is usually in the bronze to copper color range.

[u/Acquilla → u/MrCookie2099]

That... Makes it worse. "Not only are we gonna compare our darker skinned characters' skin tones to food, we're gonna name their entire group after the color!" is not a great look.

[u/Sol1496 → u/Acquilla]

Greyhawk is full of dumbass jokes like that. It is both great and terrible. Oerth is just 'Earth' with a Brooklyn accent.

[u/Stalking_Goat → u/Sol1496]

And "Vecna" is itself a simple anagram for "Vance", specifically Jack Vance, a fantasy and SF author whose books were liberally pillaged a great influence on the original creators of D&D.

[u/Ronisoni14 → u/Stalking_Goat]

yep! he's the guy the term "Vancian casting" comes from as well

[u/USAisntAmerica → u/Acquilla]

eh from what I see almost all of the human groups had darker skin tones except one, and nothing tracks ~too~ directly to real world cultures anyway. https://greyhawk.fandom.com/wiki/Human

[u/lenin_is_young → u/Acquilla]

Oh no. Anyway...

[u/WesternVirus4967 → u/BecomeAnAstronaut]

More importantly, are they delicious?

[u/Otherversian-Elite → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Albinism 😔

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Otherversian-Elite]

Didn't even think about that, that is indeed a possibility

[u/dragons_scorn → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Well now we just gotta add Sun Sensitivity to the stat block

[u/DrPythonian → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Imagine being so white you turn evil /s

[u/leonardonsius → u/DrPythonian]

Imagine being so evil you turn white /s

[u/unosami → u/Otherversian-Elite]

The OG whitewashing.

[u/RosbergThe8th → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

That newer art of him just kinda looks real generic.

[u/Mjerc12 → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

I clicked on the greyhawk link

"Your access to this site has been limited by the site owner. Access from your area has been temporarily limited for security reasons."

I'm sorry is there some kid of beef between Poland and Greyhawk fans?

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Mjerc12]

Oh wow, no idea if there is but that's weird 

[u/JusticeIncarnate1216 → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Tbh that is what most whitewashing is though. Not intentional, but it happens nonetheless.

[u/yellow_gangstar → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

maybe they just made him look like the Stranger Things version of Vecna

[u/Astrhal-M → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

There is something with the art of blonde vecna and that other dude that looks suspiciously AI to me, like the way the light is rendered on both their face and hair looks strange, way too shiny

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Astrhal-M]

I was thinking about it too, it feels off

[u/Odd-Doubt8960 → u/Astrhal-M]

Thought it was ai immediately

[u/hikingmutherfucker → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

This is actually true and I never even thought about it and I do not have the module but have seen the art OP is referring to.

The Flan are weird one time they are talked about as being like complete analogues of the Native American tribes and other times they are referred to as having great empires like Sulm to fill out the prehistory of the setting.

[u/Salty_Soykaf → u/hikingmutherfucker]

The Cahokia Mounds say hello

[u/Profezzor-Darke → u/hikingmutherfucker]

You know that native Americans built cities, right?

[u/hikingmutherfucker → u/Profezzor-Darke]

I do but they had a different vibe in the Greyhawk world almost in some cases Mesopotamian or real old school fantasy with necropolises..

not like Cahokia or the other Mound People and they could have described them based on the Chaco Canyon city but did not and ..

The Oman culture was the South American equivalent which is literally an analogue culture but with a really cool ass migration story from Hepmonaland to the Amedio Jungle.

[u/DrulefromSeattle → u/hikingmutherfucker]

They were basically every lazy/caughtboff guard DM's, I need an ancient civilization. Take one part this civilization and mix it.

Could have sworn later things made him Suel because it was a bit more fitting.

[u/Niser2 → u/hikingmutherfucker]

Plenty of Native Americans had empires though.

[u/Duke_Jorgas → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

The art itself looks like they touched up on an AI image. The clothing style is very similar to the "generic fantasy" look that is generated on most generators.

[u/EndymionOfLondrik → u/Duke_Jorgas]

This is most likely the case. A lot of parts seem handpainted but the heads, hair and Vecna's hand are fairly sus and in an incoherent rendering style compared to the rest. I can't be assed to find the artist and analyze more of their work for confirmation though

[u/Neknoh → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Could just handwave it as Vecna doing a Sauron and shape shifting to whatever culture he's in while on his wizard-to-lich-to-god journey

[u/KertisJones → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Wow I didn’t ship Vecna and Kas before now, but look at how they’re starring into each other’s eyes.

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/KertisJones]

Yeah its a theory that whoever made the art shipped the two since it really does feel like Draco and Harry ship fic art

[u/Buntschatten → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Considering their history Dumbledore and Grindelwald are more fitting.

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Buntschatten]

True true

[u/Hexxer98 → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Cool to know, though considering the whole adventure is very mediocre for one of dnd greatest villains WotC kinda has bigger problems.

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Hexxer98]

True, I'm trying my best to make it actually good from my friends but the amount of damage control im doing is insane (mfw accidental time travel happens twice in this adventure)

[u/GrookeTF → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

I was thinking “well maybe they were trying to show that he was already dabbling in necromancy. That he was some king of basement dweller.”

Clicked on the picture you linked, nope! You’re onto something 😅

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/GrookeTF]

Yeah it's tragic

[u/Erivandi → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

...maybe he's the one on the left?

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Erivandi]

Unfortunately that's Kas, he looks like how the rest of the module portrays Kas

[u/Scorched_Knight → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

You know wizards have spells. illusions n'stuff?

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Scorched_Knight]

Possible but weird given the context of the art. Basically he's talking world domination with Kas

[u/NumberAccomplished18 → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Oh, I thought it was in reference to how they took the slavery and witch burning from his backstory.

[u/TyphosTheD → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

It could also just be that they wanted the creepy guy who became a lich to always look like a creepy guy who'd become a lich, a pasty and pale Draco Malfoy looking guy is pretty easy art to depict - which also serves to clearly showcase how "alien" Vecna was to even his own culture.

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/TyphosTheD]

Not gonna lie if that was the attempt I would be far more upset about this than I currently am 

[u/TyphosTheD → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Idk if I'd be more upset about lazy artists than ones actively erasing racial history of characters and cultures, but go off.

[u/DreadlordBedrock → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

I mean Doyalist answer is WotC wanting to avoid playing into villain tropes about downtrodden ethnic groups, while the Watsonian answer could be his father was a white dude and/or he has some genetic throwbacks to another ancestor who was white, happens IRL all the time. Also do we know if the Ur-Flan were of a similar complexion to the Flan of Fleeth?

One thing I find funny though is how in the Forgotten Realms the Red Wizards of Thay are canonically almost as pasty as I am, their ethnic background as Mulan means they’re of Egyptian heritage and all the necromancy literally killed off their melanin probably XD

[u/E7RN]

Well the picture of Vecna and Kas having a nice meal together and smiling at each other like they were in a lifetime movie was a more grievous sin.

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/E7RN]

True, if I remember things right, he met Vecna years after he was already a lich

[u/E7RN → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

And they were never friends, Vecna gave him the sword to test his loyalty, unaware of how malevolent the sword actually was

[u/jukebox_jester → u/E7RN]

That's the revised history. We all know the real story.

Vecna forgot to get a gift for their anniversary do swiftly cobbled together and evil sword, under the assumption that Kas loves Evil swords.

[u/DreadlordBedrock → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Devils advocate, Vecna could easily hide his undead nature as it suits his ends

[u/Successful-Floor-738 → u/E7RN]

“Kas was Vecna’s most trusted lieutenant. He slept in the same bed as him, made breakfast for the lich, and even embraced the man in hugs numerous times. Truly they were very good friends.”

[u/[deleted] → u/Successful-Floor-738]

Literally NOT original lore, what 5e rewrite did you pull this from?

[u/Successful-Floor-738 → u/[deleted]]

It’s called a joke.

[u/Pyrotech_Nick]

Counter... this is a trick by Vecna himself so as to confuse us

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Pyrotech_Nick]

I actually headcannon this, from 3e onwards Vecna got more and more mysterious with his backstory gets fuzzy so I like to think Vecna is trying to burry his past

[u/lordofmetroids]

Of course they did bones are white.

(For legal reasons, this is a joke)

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/lordofmetroids]

True I didn't think of that. I will apologize to WotC by buying 5 copies of the 2024 PHB

[u/Lord_Longface]

Yall who complain when white skinned characters get blackwashed should also hate this.

Characters are what they are. Changing their race is highly disrespectful without proper cause.

That said, its even more sad (but not as frustrating) that this is probably just the artist not knowing Vecna's lore. Like, come on, it is the Lich everyone knows. You should put in the effort to learn his story.

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Lord_Longface]

Oh yeah I agree, its also funny because in this same module Alustriel was given a darker skin tone so i guess it balances out

[u/Any_Meringue_9085 → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

That's just doing nothing but with extra steps. Could have kept both of them their original color and still be balanced.

[u/PoopIn3D → u/Lord_Longface]

I mean yeah, race swapping characters is weird and there is usually an agenda behind it. Goes both ways.

[u/L_knight316 → u/Lord_Longface]

I'm not sure there's even close to an even ratio of people on this sub that get upset at blackwashing over whitewashing. I've seen a lot more people banned or blocked on social media over bring up blackwashing for "being racist," especially on social media subs/accounts with lots of rainbow flags.

[u/Dikeleos → u/Lord_Longface]

It’s a lose lose scenario in my opinion. Either they introduce original PoC characters and get accused of wokeism and pushing an agenda or they change races of characters and get accused of wokeism and hypocrisy. Mind you I have bigger problems than complaining over media being diverse with a range of fictional characters.

[u/Answerisequal42 → u/Lord_Longface]

Yeah i agree with that.And I also think you are roght that the mistake probablylcame faom ignorance not malevolence.

[u/Mamoswole → u/Lord_Longface]

Didn't his hand exist long before he was introduced? And it is white, he was race changed for backstory and then an artist made him the skin color he was originally. And the character is based off the white dude that inspired the magic system.

[u/SharkLaserBoy2001]

Here before this post blows up and gets locked

[u/Salty_Soykaf]

Bold to assume DnD remembers Greyhawk, seeing as it's all Faerun for the most part.

[u/Cool_Hand_Skywalker → u/Salty_Soykaf]

Greyhawk is being brought back to focus with the 2024 rules, its talked about a lot in the new dmg and the book comes with a big hexgrid poster map of the setting.

[u/Salty_Soykaf → u/Cool_Hand_Skywalker]

...aw shit, really? Time to work on my best Roland DesChain impression. Thankee, sai.

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Salty_Soykaf]

Given how Greyhawk is treated by 5e... I am not really excited for it to become the main setting of 5.5

[u/starcoffinXD → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

There's no "main setting." The Greyhawk setting described in the DMG is meant to be an example of a campaign setting that we have freedom to customize, they're giving it to us. I would argue that's a potential sign that they're going to make even less Greyhawk adventures than before, except for the sample adventures in the DMG, so you probs don't have to worry about them ruining it. I'd be more worried about a DM doing so

[u/Wilvinc]

MFers are arguing over the skin complexion of a dead guy.

[u/arthcraft8 → u/Wilvinc]

who's notoriously known for having 6 different backstories

[u/The_Globadier]

probably just an artist not doing proper research into the character

[u/Trainer-mana]

Vecna has lost his N word pass.

[u/Eden_ITA → u/Trainer-mana]

Word of Power - N(censored).

[u/Fantastic_Year9607]

What if he got more of his looks from his father?

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Fantastic_Year9607]

So we don't really know anything about his father and that his mother was a slave in a Flan city over a thousand years ago so its possible but we don't really know

[u/BlackMetalMagi]

Did you know that mummification turns the skin dark? but in some cases skin is preserved with cold permafrost or in ice.

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/BlackMetalMagi]

Yeah, didn't know ice can preserve it that well though 

[u/razorbak852]

Maybe it was just my head canon but I always thought Vecna’s exact origins are a mystery. We know the events with the eye and hand and Kas but not exactly where he came from. I thought it was like the Joker where you keep hearing different versions. He’s the God of Secrets! Knowing his whole origin is super dumb!

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/razorbak852]

So at first he was incredibly mysterious, but writers delve deeper into his history. Also it should be mentioned he wasn't always the god of secrets so learning about him is possible, though in universe it seems all this lore has been lost as 3e is a lot more vague

[u/Easy-Control7417]

The hand and eye of Vecna are totally stolen conceptually from The Corum series by Michel Moorecock.  They were the Hand of Kwll and the eye of Rhynn ( his brother).  These were two neutral to chaotic neutral gods.  Very powerful beings but not of Law or Chaos which the three books of Corum explores those opposing forces in them, divinity, etc.  in the end the hand and eye within Corum are powerful "divine" artifacts.  Read the three short books if u want the inspiration to these two old school items.  The fact that they changed the name to a single source and made it a lich is their own doing some time after... In the end of the Corum series the Gods get back their missing bits and do Corum ( who is basically an elf, last of his race ) and the rest of "humanity" and the mortal realms a favor... They destroy all the Gods. The DMG 1st edition means of creating unique Artifacts made each artifact in your world different than any one else... If u followed the random implication of the DMG.

[u/Hasudeva]

🔐 

[u/Drakkonai]

I mean, he could be albino?

[u/SHIMOxxKUMA → u/Drakkonai]

Alternatively the father could be white, or hear me out wotc is inconsistent and forgot about old lore.

[u/zqmbgn]

wait, did we have a picture of vecta from before he was a lich? I've only seen him in bones or in parts. edit: searching on Google, I can't find a picture of him when he was human

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/zqmbgn]

The adventure Eve of Ruin has a single piece of art for him as a human 

[u/zqmbgn → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

don't understand the post then, vecna is white in that illustration. where was he showed as black before?

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/zqmbgn]

So, we never had art of Vecna as a human before, but we do know he was a member of a race of humans known as the Flan, which are described to have copper to brown skin and his mother's description is bronze skinned and brown hair, meaning Vecna likely didn't look like he does in the art

[u/Haravikk → u/zqmbgn]

D&D Beyond released some character sheet backdrops to coincide with the Vecna: Eve of Ruin module, one of these features someone that might be Vecna, you can see that background here.

The book itself didn't interest me so I don't know if that's actually meant to be Vecna, or if it's just some guy with the hand and eye, but I would guess the latter as the artefacts are just leftover bits of Vecna's lich body, a pre-lich Vecna should just look normal I would think.

As far as I can see there is no official artwork of Vecna before he became a lich, just various different forms of lichdom.

[u/starcoffinXD → u/Haravikk]

Eve of Ruin contains a picture of human Vecna with Kas plotting to conquer Oerth. The artwork there is different from the one you shared, but he is white and blond in it.

[u/Ok-Abbreviations4754]

I mean how do we know that's his original form he could have used like magic jar given he is a wizard.

[u/Suitable-Ad-8397]

Gary didn't approve of this, making to me not a cannon material and that's all. We have lore about it, OP knows about it too.

I just straight up ignore the poor representations and lore breaking shenanigans like always with the weirdness brought by 5e. Still amazes me how they have this weird behavior of "me knows better than the people who created this."

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Suitable-Ad-8397]

Yeah 5e breaks a lot of lore for very little reason. At least there's a good reason for the sword coast being so diverse as the spell plague destroyed everything else so refugees are expected (not like WotC ever acknowledged that)

[u/Brukenet]

From the original AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide (published in 1979):

"Seldom is the name of Vecna spoken except in hushed voice, and never within hearing of strangers, for legends say that the phantom of this once supreme lich still roams the Material Plane. It is certain that when Vecna finally met his doom, one eye and one hand survived. The Eye of Vecna is said to glow in the same manner as that of a feral creature. It appears to be an agate until it is placed in an empty eye socket of a living character. Once pressed in, it instantly and irrevocably grafts itself to the head, and it cannot be removed or harmed without slaying the creature."
-- page 157

"The arch-lich Vecna supposedly imbued both his hand (left) and his eye (see the foregoing listing) with wonderous and horrible powers enabling them to persist long after his other remains moldered away into dust. Tales say that the Hand appears to be a mummified extremity, a blackened and shriveled hand, possibly from a burned body"
-- page 157

"There is recorded this additional information regarding the lich, Vecna: 'When Vecna grew in power he appointed a most evil and ruthless lieutenant to serve as his bodyguard and right hand. This henchman was the lord, Kas.... ....Legend says that the destruction of Vecna was by Kas and his Sword, but at the same time Vecna wrought his rebellious lieutenant's doom."
-- page 161

[u/National_Rutabaga549]

Definitely a bit disappointing, and I wonder what the cause was, and whether it was as simple as the artist not knowing, being given a very poor brief/extremely short deadline, or deciding to make it more like Sauron's Avatar (where he appears almost like a beautiful elf, rather than a tower of steel, wrought in hate).

Plus, I think there are so many interesting things in learning about other cultures; the recent (2021?) re-do of his design for 5e looked cool, and gave me hints of subtle nods to middle eastern cultures and ornamentation/dressing.

If I am ever confident and skilled enough to run The Whispered One at my table, I would like to be true to his original heritage and appearance in my depiction of him.

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/National_Rutabaga549]

Yeah Vecna has some really interesting ties to a mostly dead subculture of Flan people called the Ur-Flan who were necromancers that druids actually sided with half the time. Its really interesting.

[u/Level_Hour6480]

Post-Tasha's WotC, don't butcher old lore challenge.

(Pre-Tasha's changed lore for the better with a few exceptions)

[u/djoosebox]

Vecna just looks like Chris Perkins now.

[u/0c4rt0l4]

Where did that come from?

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/0c4rt0l4]

Eve of ruin shows a picture of Vecna when he was human and hes super pale. In older lore he was supposed to be a Flan which are copper or brown skinned

[u/0c4rt0l4 → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Ye, I found your explanation a bit before commenting. I never knew there was an official statement of his nationality, so the only thing I thought when I saw that picture was that making jolly last century advertisement-esque art in first party D&D books should be a federal crime

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/0c4rt0l4]

Ah understandable

[u/eyeen]

YES finally someone else mention it

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/eyeen]

Its funny, I was randomly looking into Vecna lore for my Eve of Ruin game and I stumbled upon the lore of the Flan people and couldn't stop thinking about it.

[u/eyeen → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

Yeah... I was stoked for the book's release, whishing it would include art of human vecna which i dont think we ever got... and one finger curled in the monkey's paw

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/eyeen]

Yep I have yet to find a single nonlich art of Vecna that isn't the Eve of Ruin one and man I was disappointed by it even before I found out about the Flan.

[u/eyeen → u/TieberiusVoidWalker]

yeah whats up with that artstyle? It feels off. When I saw it for the first time I was scared it could've been AI but i checked who the artist was and they just have this style really. At least they made him a twink which is lore accurate.

[u/Razorspades]

Who cares? It’s a minor backstory thing. People really just know him as the lich-god appearance.

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/Razorspades]

I mean... I care? WotC seem to not care about his history which is actually pretty cool. Like reading his history is what made me like Vecna 

[u/LordDeraj]

I’d say I’m disappointed but my god how do you fumble the ball that bad…then I remembered “oh it’s wotc”

The worst part? Sprugs are gonna use this as “evidence” as wotc trying to be “woke” by making a white guy the big bad.

[u/AuricOxide]

I'm feeling like someone just wants to stir the pot

[u/TieberiusVoidWalker → u/AuricOxide]

Well, me for one, and a few other people in the comments. Hope that answers your question

Edit: Guy keeps editing his comments to try and make himself sound better while making me luck unreasonably, ignore him he's not worth it