r/benshapiro • u/American_Streamer "Here's the reality" • Aug 26 '22

White House Lashes Out At Republicans Over Student Loan Cancellation; Conservatives Fire Back | The Daily Wire, Aug 26th, 2022 - Attempting to paint Congress Republicans as hypocrites because they took out Paycheck Protection Program (PPP) loans during the COVID pandemic, which were later forgiven. Daily Wire

https://www.dailywire.com/news/white-house-lashes-out-at-republicans-over-student-loan-cancellation-conservatives-fire-back
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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '22

Naked deflection. PPP was a very different program, with forgiveness designed into the program, established to prevent the mass failure of small and medium-sized businesses and the mass loss of jobs at a time of a black swan event that resulted in an unprecedented government mandate for people not to work and companies not to operate. None of that applies to student loan forgiveness. It's an apples and oranges comparison that allows the White House to avoid defending yet another bad economic decision by this White House.

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u/bamzamma Aug 26 '22

Free money is free money. It was called a PPP LOAN, not PPP FREE MONEY.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '22

It was designed for forgiveness due to the extreme uniqueness of the event.

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u/bamzamma Aug 26 '22

Keep telling yourself that.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '22

I will. Those are the facts.

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u/bamzamma Aug 26 '22 edited Aug 26 '22

So you agree that PPP "loans" were free money to keep the economy going.

If student loans go back into effect, you can kiss the current troubled economy goodbye.

The PPP loan program was a joke and has been more detrimental than loan forgiveness ever will be. The fraud is so bad that most offenders who took out loans against fake businesses will probably never be prosecuted purely based on the lack of manpower necessary to investigate and prosecute those crimes. Current estimates place total fraudulent loans at $90-$400 billion; most of which will never be recovered.

Meanwhile people like yourself feel that student loans, taken out in good faith, should be a chain to anyone who has them while allowing the government to profiteer off its citizens. The amount of liquidity that would get sucked out of this market when they go back into effect would decimate any semblance of stability we have left.

The loans may not have been designed to be forgiven, but not doing so will be much more devastating. Meanwhile PPP "loans" were the largest scam in US history.

Keep telling yourself PPP loans were meant to be forgiven. You will, but you're clearly naive and just like the part about PPP that fits your narrative.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '22 edited Aug 26 '22

PPP was for a black swan event whose conditions may never repeat in our lifetime. To the fact that there was fraud, that is immaterial to the student loans. Fraud is a separate issue that should be dealt with if it happened, but it does not change the parameters on which that program has to be compared to student loan forgiveness.

Paying back student loans is a personal expense that is an ongoing responsibility in the lives of many. This is nothing like the detail of PPP and the rationale for it. And yes...if you take out a loan...news flash...it is your responsibility to pay it back. Wow. Personal financial responsibility. Shocking. We could produce a very long list of reasons it is unfair to demand others pay your personal debts. Espceially given that for someone making as much as $100k+, paying $10k of debt should not be a major financial burden. And many of the loans forgiven would likely have been paid back so so much for this very weak "stability" argument. The moral hazard created is far more devastating ultimately than the subset of people who may have to live with and hopefully learn from poor financial decisions.

Apples and oranges. And arguing otherwise is deflection.

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u/bamzamma Aug 26 '22

Both effect the economy.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '22

That doesn't justify pushing personal expenses onto taxpayers in an "going concern" situation. Especially when that action will only exacerbate many of the problems that already exist in the system. And even Lawrence Summers, who guys ignored about the risk of inflation for the third COVID package, has noted this handout could be inflationary. How is that supposed to be good for the economy?

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u/BearcatCowboy Aug 26 '22

Damn just give up man, you're just gonna run around in circles like every fake libertarian does.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '22

When you face someone who uses logic you can’t seem to get around…yeah…I am sure you would prefer I shut up. Well, I will decide when I have poked enough holes in your arguments.

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u/floridaman711 Aug 26 '22

Don’t care. You’re bootlicking. The government doesn’t have the right to give my money to anyone. Both are steps towards communism.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '22

🤣

Coming from the left, who have no idea what that means but knowing how they use it…thank you! 👍🏻 (As much as I despise communism…you don’t understand it.)

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u/bamzamma Aug 26 '22 edited Aug 26 '22

They are my taxes too and as someone who owns a house and has a job... I still think its the right thing to do after paying back my student loans.

Student loans take liquidity out of the system. It may be inflationary, but it's not any more inflationary than the fed's shadow bailouts upwards of $6.8 trillion that happened in 2020.

Student loan forgiveness is a bandaid for a problem that started 2 years ago.

I get where you're coming from. But we have to look back and say, "It's time to reconsider." The alternative is worse.

And in all honesty, 10k is nothing. My student loans were over 120k. My sister in law's are over 300k. She won't be getting relieved since she makes way more than 250k a year. I won't get relieved as mine are paid off.

It's a band aid that we have to use.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '22

Then why don't you contribute to a private foundation to pay off loans? Instead, you would rather force your solution on others and take their money to do as you see fit, never mind the laundry list of bad reasons for this initiative by Biden.

How does a student loan take liquidity out of the system versus any other loan? Why not forgive all loans? Is that because these are government loans and they go back to the government rather than a bank who could lend them again to stoke economic growth? Never mind that the Fed is trying to reduce economic growth right now, so this argument is weak in the current situation.

We are talking about inflationary actions now. There was no inflationary environment in 2020 so this argument is irrelevant. We are at a four-decade high for inflation now. This is another attempt at deflection that is even weaker than the hypocrisy argument. It's also disingenuous to claim that the inflationary problem started two years ago when there was a reasonable possibility we were staring into an economic abyss, on par, if not worse than the Great Depression. We were not and it turned around faster than most expected but hindsight is always 20-20....and apparently useful when trying to justify politically-motivated bad policy a few years later.

And even if everything you said was true, it does not address that this is blatantly unfair to a huge swath of average Americans. From those who managed to go to college and leave with little debt. Or those who already paid off their loans. Or those who chose to go directly to work and skip college but now are paying for someone else's degree. To the person making a solid salary who had planned to pay off his loan but now will wipe his hands of it and pass the bill to his neighbors.

Furthermore, it creates a huge moral hazard that encourages more of the poor financial decisions that led some to legitimate financial distress (to be sure, this does not include every who will receive this largesse). The next group of students - for there is a new group every year, unlike the COVID shutdowns of 2020 - will see this and assume that down the road they won't have to pay their loans either. That will cause them to miss out on the crucial lessons that gained from managing one's finances after such of a decisions to live up to their obligations, not to mention learning to make wise decisions when the loans were taken out.

Finally, this only encourages colleges to keep ramping up the fees. Since students will be open to taking out loans they anticipate having at least partially forgiven, colleges will have no difficulty raise fees and tuitions knowing the students will be more comfortable taking out ever more loans to pay those rising fees and causing the problem to snow ball.

This decision, likely done out of naked political consideration, is bad on so many levels that are not even political. And we can only hope that many swing voters will be incensed to see the entitlement of some being borne by their wallets and, as such, will remember it come November. Of course, this all presumes this survives a court challenge and perhaps Biden is counting on that not being addressed before the election.

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u/[deleted] Aug 27 '22

The PPP was a Paycheck Protection Program because the Government MANDATED the businesses close, stay home, not operate as normal. As long as you kept 90% of your employees during (or rehired them) the pandemic were able to keep the funds AS THEY INVESTED IT IN THEIR EMPLOYEES. If they didn’t, then they HAD to pay back the money. Student loans are not MANDATED or FORCED upon anyone.

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u/misterforsa Aug 26 '22

Christ, these fucking bootlickers have an excuse, cover story, lie or some other bullshit response for everything. It's really disgusting. A loan is a loan regardless. The same reverse question these conservative reps still stands: "why should some vlue collar work pay to keep YOUR business afloat?"

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u/misterforsa Aug 26 '22

It was designed for forgiveness. So what. That doesn't really change the hypocritical response that these conservative reps are giving.

The catch phrase is "Some blue collar worker shouldnt have to pay for YOUR student loan"

Ok fair enough. But, regardless of the fact that PPP was designed for forgiveness, the point still stands. These reps took PPP LOANS and had them forgiven, making the hypocrisy almost too much to bear.

Furthermore the reverse question still stands as well "why should some blue collar worker foot the bill to keep someone else's business afloat?" . It's the same shit really.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '22

Nothing hypocritical at all. The situations are not even remotely similar. One was a black swan event where we were facing a potential economic abyss with businesses prohibited from operating. The situation was one where the goal was to be sure these businesses existed when we came out the other side, which was a big unknown in March-April 2020. It was the perfect example of the rare event where government intervention in the market was reasonable and warranted. The other is wiping personal obligations, many of which could likely have been paid, and creating a moral hazard as these conditions are not unique and will be repeated next year and the year after and the year after that.

IF there is hypocrisy here, it would be from people who had no issue with any of the COVID packages at the time, especially the third one which really was hard to justify, but now that it is politically convenient reverse their own position to defend their preferred politicians.

So what if the reps took loans if those loans complied with the rules established for the PPP program? What does that have to do with student loans? Nothing. And if they did not comply with the rules, that only raises an issue of fraud or abuse but that still has nothing to do with the details of Biden's handout this week (if it withstands court challenges which, given the law they are using to try to justify this, is not a given).

This is typical politics by the left and deflection due to the anger of average Americans paying the bills of others who should be paying their own way.

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u/misterforsa Aug 26 '22

Wow you guys will just jump through flaming hoops like trained circus bears to defend your overlords.

You say the two foregivnesses are nothing yet I beg to differ.

A business person takes risk. Its hard to predict when circumstances will disrupt business. Pandemic happens. Rather than suffering circumstances, they get a bailout.

A student takes risk to invest time/money into pursuing education. Its hard to predict the outcome sometimes. Cant find a decent paying job and gets drowned by debt.

You can attach whatever amendments you want to these situations. But it basically adds up to you saying the business operator has more entitlement to receive assistance than the meek college grad. In my mind the two are not so different. That's why we call you guys bootlickers.

Bottom line is, theres a student debt crisis in this nation. If the government can offer bailouts to everyone else, theres not reason some measure of bailout cant be offered to this stratum of society. For once they're actually doing something to help the average young person.

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '22

There are no hoops. Your arguments are illogical and based on spurious comparisons, the biggest - but not only - one being that government prevented businesses from operating normally even if they wished to. That alone would have justified the program.

Tell me where in the terms of a student is a "decent paying job" guaranteed? In addition, how many of these loans where the student has legitimate difficulty paying back were for majors that a little research would have identified as having limited job prospects and/or low average salaries? That type of information is hardly unavailable.

You can claim that my points come down to whatever...but logic does not support your conclusion on that. And under normal business condition, neither merits much entitlement to a bailout, though there might be a slightly stronger argument for the business since that could impact the jobs of employees. But that would still be a weak argument in a free market capitalistic system.

You call people "bootlickers" because you can't make a reasoned argument and have to resort to playground insults. :) Bottom line is, there is a crisis of making responsible financial decisions. And this bailout only worsens that by encouraging more irresponsible behavior not to mention prompting further growth in college fees and tuition. Fortunately, this appears to be legally dubious and may not withstanding the nearly certain court challenge. That would be the best outcome since the list of reasons why this move is a bad idea on many front is long.

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u/misterforsa Aug 26 '22

Naw my argument is perfectly reasonable. I call you a bootlicker because you chose to remain ignorant to the reason .

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '22

Keep telling yourself that. I’m sure your subs will tell you just that. Ironic that you then call others “ignorant” with the routine historically ignorant taunt after your disconnected comparison. But…sadly not surprising.

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u/misterforsa Aug 26 '22

Bootlicker is as bootlicker does. Sadly.... it's not surprising

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u/[deleted] Aug 26 '22

Lol! Someone feels threatened! You want a pacifier to go with those taunts? 🍼🤣

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