Ben Shapiro vs. Sam Harris on Trump

[u/narcabusesurvivor18]

https://youtu.be/cTnV5RfhIjk?feature=shared

To me, what sticks out in this debate is how quickly Sam changes standards with how he looks at the actions of politicians. When it’s a Democrat, he treats what they say/do as mostly unimportant, unserious, etc. but when it’s Trump it’s super important, serious, etc. It’s what Ben pointed out multiple times; the actual policy and comparing actions vs words matters more. But even the rhetoric itself, Sam changes standards. When Hillary denies the results of the 2016 election, (and launders the Russiagate lies) that’s just water under the bridge. Trump denying the election results in 2020 and then leaving office, that’s the end of the world. It bothered me quite a bit how Sam’s standards seem to change so radically but for no solid reason.

[u/alpacasallday → u/[deleted]]

The reason is severe TDS, which Sam has been suffering from for years.

Don't you get tired of calling every criticism here TDS? For Sam Harris and a lot of other people there was a line and that line is the peaceful transition of power. Trump did not give up power peacefully as even Ben admits. If you draw this line and this line is crucially important to you, then yes, you would vote for a rock or an empty sandbag instead of Trump.

Sam spent quite a bit of time explaining that he does not agree with Kamala on many things, that if Romney or another "old school Republican" would be up for the vote, he would likely lean more towards them. His criticism of Trump was quite substantial - even if you disagree with it. He thinks Trump has broken core democratic rules and principles and has been shown to be quite incompetent as a lot of his former staff have corroborated. That conversation is 1 hour 44 minutes long and yet all you take from it is "TDS". When you are facing an adverse point of view and the only answer to it you can come up with is a fantasy illness, then that's intellectually empty. I am assuming you are smarter than that, right?

[u/Flimsy-Shake7662 → u/alpacasallday]

The peaceful transfer of power thing is important, I agree. But that isn't what pushed sam over the edge. He hated him from before he won in 2016, and after he did, sam platformed multiple people for months promoting the russiagate nonsense. It's funny he says in the interview he doesn't know any of those people who believe in russiagate when he himself was one of them.

Not saying he doesn't have decent criticisms, i thought this was a pretty good conversation, just correcting you on where sam drew the line

[u/alpacasallday → u/Flimsy-Shake7662]

Yes, he disliked him before and that is understandable too though, isn't it? He gave many arguments for why he didn't trust him and didn't find him competent and also shared accounts of a lot of people who don't. That the peaceful transition of power is crucial and his inability to adhere to it disqualified him he has mentioned time and time again. So what's the gripe then? Why do people claim "TDS" when he clearly has given a number of reasons in the interview and over the years for why he doesn't like him?

[u/Flimsy-Shake7662 → u/alpacasallday]

You don’t think him supporting russiagate is TDSish at the very least? 

[u/alpacasallday → u/Flimsy-Shake7662]

I would first really recommend that people who want to be intellectually honest stop using a made-up illness to describe their disagreement with someone. We're not in kindergarden, right? I do think "russiagate" was overblown and the Democrats went crazy on that front, totally agree. However, multiple high level indictments did come out of that investigation. It's not like all of that was entirely empty. If Harris was a full blown supporter of it, I'd say that he overshot and should really rethink his mistakes there. But this does not make all his other reasons for disliking Trump any less reasonable.

And to be very honest, I don't buy Ben's reasoning all that much. He basically describes Trump like a lose canon that can do a lot of harm and should be graded on a curve and despite him having tried to break very fundamental rules (which Ben definitely has agreed he tried) he thinks if the checks and balances hold tight enough this guy can be controlled. It all seems a bit iffy to me that someone as smart as Ben really thinks this is an argument.

[u/Flimsy-Shake7662 → u/alpacasallday]

ok, i'm not attached to the label, you just sorta asked me to justify how it applies to sam.

"Why do people claim "TDS" when he clearly has given a number of reasons in the interview and over the years for why he doesn't like him?"

I was just trying to answer you here. If you don't like the label, we don't have to use it, that's fine.

The salient point is that Sam deserves some blame for being one of those democrats who was overblowing the story though. I listened to his podcast at the time and I actually trusted his judgement, which turned out to be kinda hysterical in retrospect. I'm talking when he had guys like gary kasparov on, and others like him every week or so. I only mentioned that in this interview with ben he says "idek who these crazy democracts are bro." It's like dude. They're you. Or at least they were. That should be mentioned. Some of his past judgements regarding Trump have been pretty unbalanced. He makes better arguments here though that I can get into if you wish.

Sam's criticisms of trump at the end of this conversation were his strongest imo. That you can make the same obfuscations regarding any politician really, and presuppose that they have some brilliant policy even when everything that comes out of their mouth is nonsense. It is cancerous politics I would say. But here we are.

Yeah ben's argument is iffy i'd agree. He might be right though. Overturning an election in favour of a third term is a whole different level and isn't likely possible for trump, since that involves turning over the constitution, not just counting a few thousand faux votes in your favour. Ben might very well be right that Trump couldn't do that even if he wanted to. If that's not possible, then it really is just another election that comes down to whose policies you agree with, and obviously ben is gonna vote for the republican.

[u/alpacasallday → u/Flimsy-Shake7662]

ok, i'm not attached to the label, you just sorta asked me to justify how it applies to sam.

Makes sense!

I'm talking when he had guys like gary kasparov on, and others like him every week or so. I only mentioned that in this interview with ben he says "idek who these crazy democracts are bro." It's like dude. They're you. Or at least they were. That should be mentioned. Some of his past judgements regarding Trump have been pretty unbalanced. He makes better arguments here though that I can get into if you wish.

I am not too familiar with his take on the Muller investigation or claims about Russian interference. Funny enough I can't really stand Sam for completely different reasons. In any case, if he was not too objective there or made mistakes obviously he should be truthful about it. I do understand that in this climate conceding something like that while the Republican side is completely unwilling to do anything even remotely close to it won't be high on his priority list but nonetheless if what you're saying is true, he should do so.

[u/Flimsy-Shake7662 → u/alpacasallday]

yeah if you're curious scroll to like episode 58 and just look at these thumbnails lmao: Making Sense Episodes | Sam Harris

it's like peak 2016 russiagate hysteria imo.

Yeah sam doesn't seem like the kinda guy to lie about that, i think he just might not realize the hypocrisy or doesn't realize the extent of what ben's saying. Yes, people on the left were undermining the 2016 election with these claims for years. So were you sam.

You still might be able to claim that it isn't as "dangerous" as the right wing election claims, which is what sam was saying, since those sorta lies aren't violent, or at least haven't led to violence. That might be true. But it's also true that we do have both sides undermining the credibility of elections. It really started in 2016 and to ben's point, it can be more damaging precisely bc of the subtly of these lies, and how credible news outlets were backing them for years. I'm positive that led to a major distrust in major institutions. Idk who I agree with more on this, they both have good points.

[u/reggiesdiner → u/alpacasallday]

In fairness, most republicans (including Ben) hated Trump before. They probably all still do, but they have to act like they like him now as per the loyalty test.