r/StoicMemes • u/yevelnad • 15d ago
Nihilist vs Stoic
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u/yevelnad 15d ago
Stoicism is not about being apathetic towards the world but bearing the weight of the world. Not because someone told you, not because you want to be popular or any form of personal gain. But because you choose to. And that is the true form of detachment. You change your inner world to change the outer world. The change should start within oneself and bend reality to your will.
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u/wostmardin 15d ago
There is no spoon
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u/jk3639 15d ago
How am I going to eat my cereal?
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u/DoomerFeed 14d ago
You were never going to eat the cereal.. But that's not why you came here, you came here to understand WHY you were never going to eat it - The Oracle (kind of), The Matrix
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u/MiniSpaceHamstr 14d ago
One my VERY favorite philosophical scenes in all the Maxtrix. Matrixes. Matrices.
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u/Raygunn13 14d ago
It sounds like you're still attached to "changing the outer world" and "bending reality to your will". It gives me the sense that you're missing the point - trying to "cheat God" as it were, by covering up your real desires from yourself with the appearance of having renounced them.
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u/Kya_Enstein 10d ago
I think from what he's trying to say is that he isn't trying to change the world at all. He is simply changing himself and allowing those changes to be personified outwardly. Trying to apply what he sees within himself beyond himself. Attachment implies he's changing what already is established and "fixing it" but going by what he has said he's changing himself and letting the world observe him instead and the world changes around him. There's no attachment, perhaps just extension.
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u/chookseven 14d ago
The only issue is choice is an illusion. A more fitting stance for neo in this context would be absurdism.
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u/Hot-Environment-3055 12d ago
- Why, why, why Mr. Dahmer…
The Matrix is my favorite movie but that’s not a profound or strong answer to that question.
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u/Consistent_Smell_880 12d ago
Sounds circular reasoning to me. He asked him why he chooses to do something and his answer was that he chooses to. I found everything the agent was saying more profound than Neo’s answer. Why does he choose to if there’s no meaning?
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u/Cmmander_WooHoo 11d ago
That’s the point though, isn’t it? Because he has the ability to choose. The agent is a program and doesn’t necessarily ’choose’ to do anything because it is programmed to do exactly its job.
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u/Consistent_Smell_880 11d ago
I think it’s lame. I have the ability to do a lot of things that I don’t exercise just for the sake of I guess. I can see how it’s a scene to point out the difference between a program and a human though.
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u/HedonisticFrog 11d ago
That seems like it's missing the point. It's more about how your reactions to things effect you more than the actual things themselves. You should do what's right, but it's not about being a martyr.
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u/LoStrigo95 15d ago
I love this scene for this reason.
The choice IS the detachment. To act AS BEST as you could and that's that, no matter what, makes you stoic.
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u/Hasextrafuture 15d ago
Oh, nice, never put it in quite this perspective. And I quote this speech as a party trick.
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u/PassionateYak 15d ago
Younger me: awesome action scenes
Older me: Brilliant acting
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u/coffeebean_1992 14d ago
Hugo Weaving is such an amazing actor
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u/Kazedeus 12d ago
Elrond in LotR, Smith in The Matrix, V in V for Vendetta. Man is core to my world view
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u/yawdorka 15d ago
stoicism can be the practical conclusion to nihilism. I don't see them as incompatible
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u/ItsFuckingScience 15d ago
How so? Is your thinking something like “Life is meaningless so I choose to give it my own meaning”
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u/ChampionOfLoec 14d ago
That would be existentialism because you're assigning meaning.
Stoicism "Life is meaningless, I will continue to walk this path knowing it will lead to nowhere because I choose to. I will find peace in its meaninglessness"
Existentialism "Life is meaningless, I will continue to walk this path knowing it will lead to nowhere because I choose to. My journey gives me meaning because I say it does."
Nihilism "Life is meaningless, therefore nothing matters. I do not matter, life is indifferent, all fades to nothingness eventually"
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u/dunkthelunk8430 14d ago
I will find peace in its meaninglessness
What is the difference between this and absurdism in your mind?
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u/ChampionOfLoec 14d ago
Stoicism is acknowledging existence means nothing and creating peace by remaining true to one's own principles.
Absurdism is acknowledging existence means nothing. Then simply accepting and embracing the fact it means nothing. Yet there is no peace, as it's absurd.
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u/chookseven 14d ago
• Absurdism: Life has no inherent meaning, and the best response is to embrace the absurd and live fully without needing answers. • Existentialism: Life has no inherent meaning, but individuals are free and responsible for creating their own purpose. • Stoicism: The universe is rational and ordered, so the best way to live is to accept what happens and focus on living virtuously.Absurdism best fits the scenario of choosing to live despite meaninglessness, as it directly addresses embracing the lack of inherent meaning while still living fully and authentically.
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u/Ser_Gothmer 14d ago
I think you're ascribing additional requirements to being a nihilist here. Though I don't suppose there is a singular agreed upon definition, I tend to believe all that is required is the first part: "Life is meaningless." The response to that doesn't change the nihilism.
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u/chookseven 14d ago
Nihilism is, nothing matters, and that there’s no meaning to anything, full stop. So if there is anything added after that fact, it becomes a different perspective or philosophical ideology.
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u/FoamingCellPhone 12d ago
They're essentially all subsets of nihilism but, this sort of stuff is where philosophy dives inside it's own ass in order to try to maintain academic relevance and stops having practical applications on thought.
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u/FoamingCellPhone 12d ago
You're not wrong but... people don't understand nihilism on the internet.
Everyone heard a secondhand Big Lebowski reference and called it a day.
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u/GinchAnon 15d ago
Never framed it like that either. I like it.
Glad it was a reasonably good compilation not Phonk....
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u/Significant_Sort8948 14d ago
My gf is gonna be so pissed that she has to watch all 3 movies now.
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u/Borders-live 14d ago
All FOUR. Resurrections is under appreciated.
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u/Due-Ad9310 13d ago
Honestly, only the first 45 minutes are good. After that, it just kinda uses the characters to fellate itself until it ends unsatisfyingly and rather abruptly. And yeah, I know it was symbolic, but it definitely left way too much open for interpretation, especially when another movie is highly unlikely.
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u/SetkiOfRaptors 12d ago
agree, after initial 30 minutes I was like: OMG they made it, it works somehow I enjoy it. But then...
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u/Seananon 15d ago
Does anyone know what the music at the end of the video is? It seems so familiar... Is it from the matrix?
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u/MikeXBogina 15d ago
I love this scene, always makes me think of Ulquiorra vs Ichigo(Bleach)
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u/landlocked-pirate 14d ago
Oooooh!!! Nicely done! Even as an avid Bleach fan, I didn't make that correlation. But, you are definitely spot on.... Ulq, the nihilist. Ichigo, the existentialist. Brilliant, my online friend!
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u/Flat-While2521 14d ago
It was my nihilism that led to my stoicism. First I learned not to care about the world. My apathy caused me to ignore consequences until they were shoved in my face. This led, inevitably, to the births of my children. Now instead of ignoring the role I have been cast in and avoiding the difficulties of the world to protect myself, I choose to face them with determination and courage. I will change that which I can, and allow that which I cannot to move around and past me.
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u/StreetfightBerimbolo 15d ago edited 15d ago
Stoicism sub showing about as much understanding of stoicism as the nihilism sub shows understanding of nihilism.
Also they don’t operate on a comparable axis.
As a matter of fact nihilism is a tool that is quite useful in stoic practice. During preparing for worst case scenarios for example.
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u/Mbando 15d ago
This seems a much more Existentialist reply than Stoic.
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u/MstClvrUsrnm 14d ago
Glad somebody caught that. I love existentialism, but it tends to get a bad rap as essentially being nihilism.
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u/Mbando 14d ago
I don’t think the film is in any way Christian, but the Christian existentialist position, that you do good not because you fear God, but because it’s simply what you ought to do, absolutely fits Neo’s philosophy. It’s the opposite of the kind of French pessimistic, existentialism, but I don’t know of a non-Christian flavored variety of that.
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u/MstClvrUsrnm 14d ago
Good point - Kierkegaard is actually exactly who I had in mind with my comment, who I suppose could be argued to be more of a “proto-existentialist”.
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u/ZenBoy108 14d ago
I have always seen this scene as Smith being angry because he is jealous of Neo and wants what he has. Smith wants to feel a sense of purpose; he wants to be like Neo, and since he can't, he needs to destroy it all: the Matrix, the machine world, Zion, and then himself. So, in the end, there is nothing, no need for purpose.
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u/yawdorka 14d ago
I just see nihilism as the intellectually honest way of conceptualizing our existence. but no specific attitude towards life and living needs to follow from it. schools of thoughts like stoicism and existentialism can offer ideas of how one can move forward without denying the truths of nihilism. In essence, nihilism can be built upon--instead of being seen as a problem to be solved before a life can be built
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u/chinupchilla 14d ago
Dammit! What are all 3 of these streaming on?! I had shit to do today, but it's a matrix day now...
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u/Vnxei 14d ago
The idea being expressed here is deep. Having Agent Smith lapse into a long monologue with a good faith effort to understand Neo's motivation on the other hand...
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u/ShlipperyNipple 12d ago
Smith is giving it his all and Neo is still getting up, it's Smith getting desperate, trying to get in his head. But also serves an allegorical purpose. I don't think it's supposed to be expositional
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u/NoReality463 14d ago
I do like the 28 weeks later sound track on this clip. Gives it a nice touch.
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u/Dilgence 14d ago
Neo failed to comprehend the profundity of the question - why do you make the choices you make?
Answer cannot be because I do.
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u/Hot-Environment-3055 12d ago
Exactly. If you asked a serial killer the same thing, Neo’s answer is unacceptable, and imo evil
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u/yallmyeskimobrothers 14d ago
What I love about that particular choice of words most is how it must infuriate Smith. Being a program, albeit a rogue one, Smith does not have a choice. He is simply acting within the confines of his programming and he knows it.
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u/southflhitnrun 13d ago
This thread is an interesting discussion but I always saw the core point of this scene (based on the time period of it's creation) is that Humans have Choice where The Agent chasing him is bond by code. The agent can't comprehend humanity because it can't comprehend having a choice.
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u/Hot-Environment-3055 12d ago
Neo can’t comprehend it either. I think the writers simplified the answer to make a good movie going experience
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u/Nitetigrezz 13d ago
I... wow. This makes a lot of sense. And now I may never view these movies the same again.
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u/Catvispresley 13d ago
- Meanwhile me somehow being a Nihilist-Stoic who doesn't even know how he got this point
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u/Israfel333 13d ago
"I cannot escape from death, but shall I die lamenting and trembling?"
"Therefore if I am able to change externals according to my wish, I change them: but if I cannot, I am ready to tear the eyes out of him who hinders me."
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u/sheeeeeeeeshhhh 13d ago
Neo's emphasis on defiance makes this more existentialist than stoic. A more stoic response would have been "because it is my duty" or "because it is my part to play".
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u/friendlyfiend07 12d ago
Because I choose to is what I say to myself every time I choose to do the hard thing. The choice is the important part. Everything else comes from that single decision to do the right thing.
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u/Wooden_Maintenance93 12d ago
Naw fuck stoicism, it's mewing for your brain. I go through life knowing nothing matters
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u/Alfred_Dinglebottom 12d ago
Unironically one of the hardest lines in cinema history. All the matrix movies are epic and nothing can change my mind.
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u/Intelligent_Arm_7186 12d ago
this one and the quote from loki when he talks about humans trying to grasp onto the bright lure of power. someone got that part?
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u/Commercial-Day-3294 12d ago
So what are they feeding the people in the pods?
Other pod people slurried up?
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u/Extreme-Ad723 12d ago
Agent Smith is the creation of those ideals he is actually dangerous to the matrix itself a rogue AI that the machine spirit did not calculate for.
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u/d00biusmaximus 12d ago
Love this scene, but I would argue this is more of a display of absurdism as a concept within the individual.
Camus describes the absurd as the unceasing desire for man to understand his place and purpose in the universe, contrasted with the indomitable reality that we will all die without the answer to those questions. This is the absurd, illustrated by Smith here.
While Neo represents his answer of sorts to this problem, why go on? Why continue? Because we choose to. Because one must imagine Sisyphus happy.
My 2 cents, thanks for sharing the video, haven’t thought about this in awhile.
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u/Latter-Literature505 10d ago
Still an incomplete answer to Smiths question…choice is the how…. Not the why
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u/Goatymcgoatface11 15d ago
Just wish he would've responded to, "why do you persist?" With "fuck you, that's why!"
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14d ago
That was one dumb answer. Remembering facepalming watching this in cinema back in the day.
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u/Hot-Environment-3055 12d ago
I agree. We can ask that to every serial killer and if they replied “because I chose to” I would conclude that they are insane and deserve death or worse
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u/ShlipperyNipple 12d ago edited 12d ago
I wanna reply to the other guy, but "because I choose to" isn't just a throwaway line or a badassitude. He's not saying "cuz I feel like it" - it's an allegory for consciousness, and in this scene specifically determinism (machines, algorithms, programs, the Matrix) vs consciousness (free will).
I choose to, as in "I think, therefore I am". The emergence of choice from what used to be stimulus and response, animal instinct, determinism through genetic programming. Love, aggression, the constructs Smith speaks of used to be purely instinctual, we had no choice or consciousness.
I'm not trying to get lost in the labels of "existentialism" or "stoicism" here, because it shouldn't be defined as any one thing, it's talking about consciousness itself, and I don't think those labels alone accurately define it.
If anyone's still reading- I think the logical conclusion of introspection (on consciousness) must be reached by asking yourself a series of questions. The final question you'll arrive at once you've deduced everything else, is - "Why?"
And the only answer is "Because" (..."I choose to")
If that doesn't seem particularly ground-breaking, well. "Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment: chop wood, carry water". You have to arrive at that point organically though - it happens in the series of questions you ask yourself that concludes with one question- "Why?". Not by just asking yourself "why"
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u/Hot-Environment-3055 8d ago
But that answer excludes the morality of action. “I think, therefore I am” tells me nothing about how I should live in the world.
Example: Sure walk 1,000 miles because you “choose to”. but that comes with all kinds of implications and implied understandings. Choosing to walk 1000 miles in the real world implies you have legs, you aren’t walking in the middle of the highway, not walking directly through peoples homes, not at the bottle of the ocean, not walking across boarders illegally Etc.
What if agent Smith was fighting to save the human race while Neo decided to destroy it and Agent Smith asked that same question? Would “I choose to” (kill the human race) suffice in any rational sense. IMO no.
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u/DanBentley 15d ago
-Marcus Aurelius, Meditations