Do you draft before you draft?

[u/jemmly]

Hi all!!

I'm getting into writing a new novel idea and wanted to see where everyone stands with drafting. For my first book I wrote almost entirely by the seat of my pants but it took 4 years before I finishes that book and that doesn't even including the editing stages.

I'm thinking of trying trying draft a bit more this time around to save my brain from falling into circles trying to chase my plot. I feel like there's a line with having too much detail for your 1st draft and absolutely too little detail.

How much do you draft before your first draft, or do you skip it entirely? Just getting a feel for how others do their processes!

[u/Blacksheepatx]

Yes, I call it an outline. Just enough to get the storyline down.

[u/jemmly → u/Blacksheepatx]

Yeah! How much do you outline? Each chapter? A few sentences? I find as I get closer to the end of my novel, the easier it is to write when I have an end goal. When Yet, when I try to plan middle scenes it feels like I've written the story already and feels boring by then.

[u/Blacksheepatx → u/jemmly]

Yes, each chapter. I’m vague and basically just say what is going to happen in that chapter without any details. “MC has his first day at work, has a fight with his brother, and then goes out drinking.”

[u/RobertPlamondon → u/jemmly]

When I outline, which I generally don't do anymore, I envision each scene in order to the point where I could probably write it on the spot, but don't. I write about a paragraph of summary instead. This serves as enough of a reminder that I can pick it up later. Then it's on to the next scene.

The reason I don't outline much anymore is that when I went back to clean up my outlines, they didn't change much. For better or worse, I stuck with my initial decisions unless I discovered an outright blunder somewhere along the way. So there wasn't much of a difference between writing an outline and then the draft and writing the draft on the spot.

If I find a plot hole, I fix it with the minimum possible amount of rework: it's not an excuse to make changes elsewhere in the story, which has set like concrete.

As for boring scenes, I don't allow them in my stories. Any scene has to be worth reading on its own merits: no excuses. Sometimes this is hard and sometimes this is easy, but if a scene starts to drag I look around wildly for a way to jazz it up. I usually find something.

[u/jemmly → u/RobertPlamondon]

Thank you for the reply! I definitely understand your point and wish my drafts would stay consistent enough in the editing stage. With my first book, due to the length it took to write, so much changed because I changed over the years too. I wonder if outlining prior would have helped with that.

[u/TheodoreSnapdragon → u/jemmly]

I usually have a solid idea of the beginning and the ending, then slowly feel out the middle as I go. There’s an idea of different storytelling styles of “architects” who plan everything out carefully chapter by chapter beforehand, and “gardeners” who start with an idea and just see how it grows. Different styles work for different writers, and there’s plenty of room in between the extremes. There isn’t an objectively better or worse way.

[u/ZeothTheHedgehog → u/jemmly]

My method for outlining is basically just providing basic story beats, "X did this", "Y ran from/to that", "Z called them".

These points are always super detailed, hell they barely contain any actual dialogue, and don't need to be. They're check points for when I go into the actual writing process, where I will connect them properly.

[u/tapgiles]

Sounds like you mean planning? Outlining? Worldbuilding? That's totally a thing.

Writers fall into two rough categories: making it up in the prose, and making it up in the planning. Though my guess is most fall somewhere along that spectrum that is comfortable for them.

Remember, you can always just pause and figure out what you're building towards, and some steps along the way, and come back to making the rest up. You don't have to do things in any particular order. You don't have to go all-in on planning.

I have any idea (eg. for a magic system), worldbuild a little around that. Then put a character in some weird nook within that worldbuilding. And just start writing in their shoes and see where it goes.

Any loose ends and ideas that pop up, I put right into the scene. And note those down somewhere later. Those little random things slowly build and point towards what can happen later, how it will end, what the story is about--things like that. So I have like a list of things I can revisit if I get a bit lost.

Which, again, is kind of what all writers do. Just differently timed, with different proportions.

[u/jemmly → u/tapgiles]

I really appreciate your reply. Sometimes it's hard to find the gray line between the black and white "to outline or to not" and that reminder of not having to fully commit to one side or the other really helps. Thank yoj!

[u/Capable_Active_1159]

The thing with pantsing, gardening, whatever you want to call it, is you shouldn't be just writing whatever comes, chasing your plot. You should know your start, and have an idea where your finish line is, but let your legs do the work to run you from a to b, instead of an outline. Let the characters speak.

We're all discovering writers, at the end of the day. Just some people like to have a thorough plan for every step in the race, where others prefer to just go.

All that to say, I gardened all but one of my novels. I started about three ish years ago. Wrote 1.1 million words not last year but the one before it. An average of 3000 a day for 365 days. The fact is, regardless of plotting or pantsing, it should never take 4 years to finish one draft of a book. If the problem is not a lack of consistent writing, then it's a problem of approach. So if you were putting in work over those 4 years, consistently, then absolutely try plotting out your book. If not, you should lock in on this next novel and do your absolute best to get it done faster this time

[u/jemmly → u/Capable_Active_1159]

In the beginning of that novel I definitely wasn't as consistent as I wanted to be. I was about 30k words in and I wasn't feeling confident as a writer. Then came nanowrimo and I pushed through and finished that month [my first nano ever too lol] and got my book caught up to 80kish. I finished the final 24k words two months later as I had burned myself out for once. [Going from almost nothing to a full on sprint was not easy]. I found my ending and having a snippet of an goal for the next scene I knew would exist kept me going. I wonder if the snippets would work now when I don't have much planned in the beginning or if the snippets only worked because my beginning had already been written, ya know?

[u/Capable_Active_1159 → u/jemmly]

How I manage my pantsing, is I find an interesting spot to start the story. I typically have a vision for what the character arch will be, overall, and the end result. I write the first chapter and go to the next, and I let these chapters dictate or alter the course of my idea for the ending. Then as I get more ideas, I add them onto the end of the current chapter, removes them as I get to them, and add as I have more. But it's always loose. Maybe an idea for a line. A twist. And I'll go with it to the end. I find always having an idea where the next scene will go helps me get through faster, because I'm eager to get to the next scene and the next. The biggest problem I have is shifting from set up early on, and payoffs later, and exactly when to start giving more payoffs and less setup. I would advise you to practice writing like nanowrimo every month, if you can, without burn out. That's pretty much how I did 1.1 million words in a year. Do that, and you'll go places you never imagined.

And, also, your first drafts should get neater with time.

[u/floppy_soup_sauce]

Hello! I recently finished writing my first book (a poetry book), and while it’s a bit different from a novel, I found that having a clear outline made a huge difference and consistently relieved my stress. I mapped out each section of my book with a simple structure:

Part/Chapter X:

• A brief synopsis of the key themes or ideas I wanted to explore.
• A short summary of where the storyline is going in this chapter, tying it to the larger plot arc.
• Any specific details I knew I wanted to weave in.

This approach kept me focused on what I wanted to convey and how each section connected to the overall flow. It helped me avoid getting stuck or feeling lost because I always had a roadmap to follow. The best part was that it freed me up to be more creative with the actual writing since I wasn’t constantly trying to figure out where things were headed. It doesn’t have to be super detailed—just enough to give you a guide to chase your plot instead of chasing your brain in circles. Best of luck with your new book! 😊

[u/jemmly → u/floppy_soup_sauce]

Thank you! I've never done a poetry book but they are really lovely to read. Congrats on finishing yours! How did the short summaries work for since it was poetry? Did you have a lot planned in the beginning prior to starting or did you start with an idea, then once a bit formed, started to plot little snippets?

[u/Important_Chip_6247]

I haven't finished my draft yet, but I came up with a very loose outline that I drafted in a series of single statements on individual notecards. I shuffled those around until it felt like a good flow/pace to start with.

Personally, I’m glad I didn't over outline, because as I have gotten more into the story, its taking some turns I didn't expect as I have gotten to know my characters better. I think I will still end in the same place, but its been more fun for me to really imagine things as I am going.

Stephen King has a small book “On Writing,” in which he offers his opinion on this. IIRC, he reasons that having too much of an outline kills some of the creativity. You’ll find that there's no one right way to write. Experminent to see what works for you - and maybe that will change over time.

Good luck!

[u/SeaBearsFoam]

I've been going in stages:

• Before I started writing, I had am outline of the chapters to map out where it would go, basically a short little 20-or-so word blurb about each chapter. That gives me the overall structure of the story.

• Then, before I start writing each of the 3 acts of the story, I fill in more details about each of the chapters in the act. I wind up with a paragraph covering details of what all is going to happen in each chapter. I often wind up realizing that I've crammed too much into a chapter at this point and will likely need to split it when I go to write it.

• Before I actually start writing a new chapter, I really get into all the details of what's going to need to happen to expand the paragraph from previous step into a fully fleshed out chapter. Any specifics are ironed out and decided at this stage (for example: the Act-level summary might've said "She goes on vacation", this step decides where she's going, and with whom, and everything else relevant to the vacation). This gives me a clear plan of everything that's going to need to happen in the chapter.

• Once that's done, I actually write the chapter

So my writing process goes like:

1. Whole story outline with brief events for each chapter
2. Act 1 plan with a paragraph for each chapter
3. Chapter 1 plan with all details of everything that will happen and the order they'll happen in
4. Write Chapter 1
5. Chapter 2 plan with all details of everything that will happen and the order they'll happen in
6. Write Chapter 2
7. Chapter 3 plan with all details of everything that will happen and the order they'll happen in
8. Write Chapter 3 . . .
9. Write Chapter 6
10. Act 2 plan with a paragraph for each chapter
11. Chapter 7 plan with all details of everything that will happen and the order they'll happen in
12. Write Chapter 7 . . .
13. Write Chapter 12
14. Act 3 plan with a paragraph for each chapter
15. Chapter 13 plan with all details of everything that will happen and the order they'll happen in
16. Write Chapter 13 . . .

[u/probable-potato]

Yeah. I go through several drafts, from bullet points to chapter synopses to half-scene half-summary 100-page “zero” draft. I only call it a first draft after the fact. 

[u/East-Party-8316]

I start writing very chaotically, I’ll just sh*t out a bunch of ideas/characters I like onto a Google Doc until I run out of ideas, then I’ll pick a starting point and an ending point for the story. From there, I start a chart that goes chapter by chapter with what details/action/dialogue I generally want to occur in each chapter until I have a rough outline. Then, I have another page I call “Questions to be Answered” where I’ll look through my outline and figure out what doesn’t make sense and what questions needs to be answered (Who? What? When? Where? Why? How?). Once I have the big ideas I’ll just start writing and go back and forth between the template/draft making tweaks and adding things in as I go.

[u/Fognox]

I have a pretty good idea of what I'm writing before I write and make a guiding outline to get the process started. The entire story definitely changes as I start to write or (particularly) encounter new characters, and I make a new fixed outline once I have a better idea of where the story is going. The old outline is still useful in certain ways too though -- I'll weave parts of it back in.

Additionally, the beginning and ending are the two things that never change between outlines.

For edits, I focus on reworking existing scenes, making sure they both do whatever I need them to and also still do whatever important things they're already doing. There's a hell of a lot of banter and exposition in the first draft so they're pretty flexible -- paring things down happens after I fix the inevitable plot holes that come from discovery writing.

[u/Spruceivory]

I always do. I like to go over my work after it's written quickly while it's still fresh in my brain and do some editing. He also gives me time in between writing to pause which I need. I write in spurts. I also play music that way, so it's natural for me.

[u/puckOmancer]

My first book, I did the same thing you did. I flew by the seat of my pants. It was a nightmare to edit, and it came to a point where I knew it was way beyond my skills at that time to fix. So, I moved on from it.

Since then, with each successive book, I've taken the lessons learned from my previous books and used them to plan more and more. With my current book, I had a general outline for every scene before I started writing. I knew the purpose of every scene and what the scene needed to accomplish in broad strokes. I also outlined the character arcs for all my major characters.

And then, right before I wrote each scene, I would write an even more detailed outline sketching out how the scene would unfold. I'd also use this detailed outline to muse about possible changes in the story. This detailed scene outline raged from 500 to 1500 words depending. And my scenes usually range from between 2-4k words.

And no, the outline is not set in stone. It's constantly evolving. If I come up with new/better ideas, I alter the outline as needed.

[u/JetBoyJetGirl13]

Highly recommend reading Draft No. 4 by John McPhee. It's specifically about narrative non-fiction — but the lessons about story structure are applicable to any type of writer.

It's a very fun read, too.

[u/KaydenHarris1712]

I usually draft an outline with key scenes and major plot points before I start. This way, I have a general direction, but I leave room for spontaneity.