r/worldnews • u/thegoodsamuraii • Nov 27 '24

White House pressing Ukraine to draft 18-year-olds so they have enough troops to battle Russia Russia/Ukraine

https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-war-biden-draft-08e3bad195585b7c3d9662819cc5618f?utm_source=copy&utm_medium=share

19.7k Upvotes

90% Upvoted

250

The draft, one of the many faces of modern day slavery.

96

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '24

Yep I think when you’ve run out of nationalist volunteers you’ve already lost. I had family members drafted into the Vietnam war (and get wounded) so I have a very negative opinion about involuntary service.

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u/JustAnother4848 Nov 27 '24

Pretty much every full-scale war involved a draft. For all sides. WW2 wasn't all volunteers.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

[deleted]

8

u/JustAnother4848 Nov 28 '24

We live in a society with other societies. You don't always have control of your life. Sometimes life has Hitlers that have to be stopped or they'll destroy everything.

You can call it whatever you want. No one cares.

4

u/spaghettiny Nov 28 '24

I feel bad that my comment is kinda just shitting on the other guy, but I agree. Personal liberty and freedom is important, but sometimes there are things bigger than the individual that need to be fought for.

That's not to say that all wars are justified. I'm not sure that the decision to draft 18-year-olds in Ukraine is right. And hell, if I was drafted tbh I'd probably try to get out of it, I'll own that. But as a society, as shitty as it is, yeah sometimes sacrifices have to be made, and it's blissful ignorance to think otherwise.

u/sopapordondelequepa if I'm gonna call you out you should at least have the chance to respond if you want.

-4

u/sopapordondelequepa Nov 28 '24

What a bootlicking coward. If you wanna give your life for a made-up idea (a country) feel free, I don’t owe you or any of your societies my life. Fuck off. Go fight for a bunch of suits in power you call your government while they laugh their asses off from Malibu.

I do have a say on what I want to do. My body, my choice.

5

u/JustAnother4848 Nov 28 '24

Cool.

-7

u/sopapordondelequepa Nov 28 '24

Not cool that people like you still roam the earth. War isn’t a Marvel film when we are fighting the bad guys and we are good guys. War is hell, your own generals will happily send you to die for the own personal gain. Your friends will all die around you, probably you too. There are no winners.

7

u/JustAnother4848 Nov 28 '24

You made it perfectly clear that you would have surrendered to the nazis. Or would you have fought them on your own? Or would you have joined and had zero control of your life?

Quite the puzzle.

Again, no one cares what you call it. Just get in line Mr tough guy. You're not in control.

2

u/sopapordondelequepa Nov 28 '24

No need to get in line, I live in a country that values the lives of its citizens. Neutrality is hardcoded into our constitution, so think again. Am I in control or are you not, and you think everyone else isn’t?

To answer your question, 99% I would’ve been forced to fight for the nazis. They’re bad people you know?

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u/bgarza18 Nov 27 '24

All out war like the World Wars needed a draft, I understand that. Ukraine is, in my opinion, in an all out war. They can’t just disengage from their homeland. But people shit on trump every day for suggesting that the war needs to end so I guess the draft is the next option for Ukraine, in Reddit’s opinion.

5

u/Jacksspecialarrows Nov 28 '24

we can say its wrong but it's not up to us its on the people of ukraine. If 18 year olds don't fight then they lose and they have to deal with that. And based on how Russian soldiers treat the women over there I'd say I'd fight, but i'm only speaking for myself and my country isnt being invaded right now.

0

u/bgarza18 Nov 28 '24

Yep

55

u/Jicama_Minimum Nov 27 '24

Ukraine has been drafting since the beginning of the conflict. They are just talking about drafting younger people now. I will never understand how anyone can support a war that is fueled by draftees, if you support it go take their spot. And Russia also drafts so fuck them too of course.

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u/CertifiedGenious Nov 27 '24

So what would your solution be?

18

u/fatelfeaper Nov 27 '24

Let Russia steamroll Ukraine apparently.

18

u/djk67 Nov 27 '24

It’s going to end in a deal, it was always going to end in a deal. Most wars end in some type of deal, with both sides making some concessions, just after the thousands and thousands of lives have been lost. It was always going to be a peace deal, it’s going to be a peace deal. People like me have been shouted down by people like you who are too stupid to realize that they’re doing the bidding of defense contractors, who interestingly never really seem to run out of “conflict” around the world that can turn a profit. The war is going to end the same way it would’ve ended a couple years ago, but with many many more casualties, because of war hawks like the “progressives” on Reddit. And all that because you’ve positioned yourself on such a moral high ground that you can’t “fathom” being on the “wrong side of an issue.” So, if you’re in favor of war, you’re correct. Congratulations, you have come full circle and are now Dick Cheney.

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u/ClubsBabySeal Nov 28 '24

What a strange thing to say. You understand that most conflicts go to a negotiating table but not that the terms differ mostly based on war exhaustion. Why yes, no nation ever has to fight but generally speaking they understand that instantly surrendering to any and all demands is a bad long term strategy.

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u/Fedacking Nov 27 '24

The war is going to end the same way it would’ve ended a couple years ago, but with many many more casualties,

No it won't. If Ukraine had surrendered at the beginning Russia would have fully occupied it and put a puppet government in place, or even more completely annexed the country. War goals and acceptable deals change as the war progresses.

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u/CertifiedGenious Nov 27 '24

This appeasement shit is beyond idiotic. You're speaking from the position that the Russians are rational actors which they have shown they are not.

You're essentially arguing the west give an aggressive pro war federation exactly what they want when they use force, then expect them not to further use force when they have proven it works.

15

u/cdw2468 Nov 27 '24

instead, we now give them what they want AND send ukraine into a deeper demographic crisis than they already have

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u/HannasAnarion Nov 28 '24

what they want

TIL Russia wanted its money to lose all of its value, to lose most of its export customers, to switch its economy into a war footing, and to lose so much of its warmaking equipment that it now giving t-55s the rustoleum treatment to be ready for frontline service again.

1

u/SirVanyel Nov 28 '24

Russia came back from the fall of the soviet empire in 2 generations. Ukraine has some of the most fertile land on earth. If Russia manages to make substantial ground in Ukraine through a peace deal that the world is okay with, they can reach economic equality within a decade and continue the steam train.

If Russia takes ukraine, china is likely to take taiwan. I hope you enjoy your GPU's costing 15k, because they will soon enough.

0

u/cdw2468 Nov 28 '24

if/when a peace gets negotiated, half of these problems will likely go away

2

u/Nico_Bandito Nov 27 '24

It was always going to end up in a peace deal or World War 3. If you can't see that then you truly have been brainwashed.

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u/djk67 Nov 27 '24

Your comment is beyond idiotic, and completely lacks substance, just that Russia is an “irrational actor.” I don’t care that you’re in favor of war, most of the country has been for quite some time, but don’t act like we’re stupid for actually reading up on the history of Ukraine and Russia as well as American foreign policy, and not getting duped into throwing all of our money into weapons for murder. You’re not any better than Dick Cheney, actually probably even worse

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u/DrabCadre2 Nov 27 '24

Your solution to the conflict is let Russia conquer and enslave ukraine. The only person worse than cheney here is you vatnik

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u/well_spent187 Nov 27 '24

Definitely worse…Dick had money to be made by being a war hawk lmao

0

u/CertifiedGenious Nov 28 '24

Again you aren't making any actual point. "This history of Ukraine and Russia" Both countries in their current form have existed since December of 1991, anything before that is completely irrelevant.

You idiots cite word of mouth unverified agreements from the Soviet Union which doesn't even exist anymore as justification for the violation of a signed memorandum which prohibits Russian violation of Ukranian sovereignty, which was signed while both countries existed.

Randomly calling people Dick Cheney without answering the question: Why would Russia stop after we proved using force like this works? isn't the own you think it is. It just proves how much of a gullible idiot you are and how deep into your brain the propaganda has soaked.

This isn't an isolated incident, Russia in its current form has invaded neighbors before and will continue doing so unless stopped by force.

1

u/djk67 Nov 28 '24

Also I just realized your username is literally certified genius, lmao this site is insane

0

u/djk67 Nov 28 '24

You are a complete moron, and you are brainwashed by the American war machine to believe that our foreign policy wasn’t designed to completely screw Ukraine. Shouldn’t have ever taken their nuclear capabilities, and that’s the reason Ukraine wants to join NATO, which was. RED LINE for Russia for years. You are just a complete and total idiot, and probably spend way too much time on Reddit, because I hate to break it to you, but most people don’t agree with your regurgitated talking points

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u/Pokedudesfm Nov 28 '24

Most wars end in some type of deal, with both sides making some concessions, just after the thousands and thousands of lives have been lost. It was always going to be a peace deal, it’s going to be a peace deal.

don't you love it when people say something obvious that the other person didn't disagree with as it it makes their point that much better. Everyone knows it was going to end in a deal, the question is what kind of deal and would it be favorable.

People like me have been shouted down by people like you who are too stupid to realize that they’re doing the bidding of defense contractors, who interestingly never really seem to run out of “conflict” around the world that can turn a profit.

You don't think the United States has a geopolitical interest in weakening Russia by funding its enemy? Yes, defense contractors stand to gain immensely, that doesn't mean the United States does not stand to gain.

because of war hawks like the “progressives” on Reddit

classic "stupid redditors" comment to cement authority despite being a redditor themselves.

The war is going to end the same way it would’ve ended a couple years ago, but with many many more casualties,

I'm confused, do you think that if the Ukraine immediately gave up all their land two years ago, Russia would have just stood by their word and not invaded again for more land today? You can't be that stupid... right? I checked your comment history you don't appear to be a bot

And all that because you’ve positioned yourself on such a moral high ground that you can’t “fathom” being on the “wrong side of an issue.”

what an ironic comment from someone pretending to be on a high horse.

So, if you’re in favor of war, you’re correct. Congratulations, you have come full circle and are now Dick Cheney.

Dick Cheney the guy who started an invasion with US troops against a nation that had nothing to do with 9/11 versus using no US troops funding a war against Russia, our geopolitical enemy, invading an ally of ours?

I mean look, I get it, if you don't care about US status as a superpower, then of course you don't want a war. Of course why you wouldn't be condemning Russia for starting the war in the first place is another question entirely, but yeah, if you don't really believe that the Ukrainians deserve their own government and stronger countries should always be allowed to annex weaker countries, there is no argument for why Ukraine should defend themselves.

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u/djk67 Nov 28 '24

When did I say Ukraine would give up all their land? Who said that? When has that ever been mentioned? It really bothers me when people like you add subtle details or change the goalpost entirely. You have no idea what you’re talking about, and no, of course I don’t care about the US status as a superpower. I stopped caring about that after Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraq, Afghanistan, the surprising thing to me as that they use the exact same arguments to convince you to send more money and weapons to a human meat grinder. Really easy to sit on Reddit and call people stupid for not wanting to keep fighting a war that now wants to conscript literal teenagers. I don’t really care about what you most likely college aged inexperienced idiots, who have never experienced a second of violence, have to say about sending young men to die for money; I’m just glad the rest of the country is starting to wake up left or right

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u/itsthetheaterthugg Nov 27 '24

It's unpopular but I agree with you. Human beings are generally horrible at conceptualizing large numbers, but if you look at some pictures of full sports stadium, look up their capacity, and then look up even conservative estimates for killed and wounded in this war, it might help to realize how much death and destruction this war has caused. Then think on how many of those killed are being forced to serve via the draft, they're not even volunteers. All to keep one group of government elites in charge over another.

Of course one could argue that since Russia taking over Ukraine or even gaining territory from it is bad for the world, some fighting is required. But I personally believe that this is a case of a conflict where a draft is not justified and I think anyone who would vote referendum style to fight, should have to fight themselves. And if not enough people are willing to fight, a peace deal should be made

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u/FuckHarambe2016 Nov 27 '24

All to keep one group of government elites in charge over another.

What the actual fuck are you talking about? Only one country in this war us making it's soldiers fight on the behalf of their dictator's imperialist and genocidal delusions. The other country is fighting so that it's people, culture, and sovereignty isn't urned off of the face of the earth.

There is only one "group of government elites" who want this.

5

u/DrabCadre2 Nov 27 '24

keep government elites in power.

You know just spouting general anti war points doesnt apply to every conflict lmao

-7

u/millyfrensic Nov 27 '24

I mean Russia was open to a deal for around 2 years but now they are winning hand over fist it is hard to see them take one at least if the current trend continues.

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u/goldflame33 Nov 27 '24

See, I agree with you about how horrible conscription is. I just think that there’s no alternative BUT fighting a war when a country has proven that they want to invade their neighbors for exclusively to steal land.

Therefore, the global response to a war of conquest should be so immediate and decisive that it ends as quickly as possible

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u/Next_Yesterday_1695 29d ago

> And Russia also drafts so fuck them too of course.

Oh, so you haven't read the Ukrainian media then? They complained that Russia is paying people to join military instead of snatching them from the streets. But Ukrainian officials say it's not the way, because Ukrainian patriots don't need the money to fight for independence.

Post-truth society.

2

u/Someonejusthereandth Nov 28 '24

I also shudder at the thought of a forced draft but russian soldiers held in captivity, tortured, repeatedly gang raped, and killed people of all ages and genders in the villages they temporarily occupied around Kyiv at the beginning of the war (and reports from other occupied areas are not much better), so I honestly don't know what a country should do in a situation like this - it was not a "gentle" occupation, people were being brutalized for the mere reason of having a Ukrainian passport.

1

u/Eldias Nov 28 '24

There's more than a small difference between an American drafted and fighting in Vietnam to a Ukrainian drafted and fighting in Ukraine.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

meh... not really. You're not truly free if your government can send you to die for a cause they think is worthy and you don't. If they thought it was worthy they would enlist on their own. They can't leave because they will be arrested and the borders are lined with anti personnel mines.

If you don't think you will have the training and equipment to have a reasonable chance at accomplishing a stated goal and surviving and/or do not believe in the premise of the war you should be able to leave the country. Once all the nationalists die it should be over for the good of everyone else. Say they draft 18 year olds.... and the war goes on.... what's next after that? How does the country recover? Was it worth it?

Saying this as a 2 x US infantry combat veteran (volunteer), and like i said in the original comment have family members that were drafted into particularly unjust wars like the vietnam war.

The fuck are you fighting for if your own government will imprison or even kill/maim you for refusing?

2

u/Eldias Nov 28 '24

meh... not really. You're not truly free if your government can send you to die for a cause they think is worthy and you don't. If they thought it was worthy they would enlist on their own.

I don't think that's a reasonable dichotomy to declare. Between volunteering and conscientious objection there is a wide spectrum of willingness to join a fight for the survival of ones people. One might not volunteer, but if called upon to serve ones civic duty to defend their people the burden may be an acceptable one to bear nonetheless.

You're not truly free if your government can send you to die for a cause they think is worthy and you don't.

No person is an island. Without your community you will die. Whether you like it or not being part of a society brings with it some civic duties.

I was reading this article earlier about the history the American Second Amendment, and the rights and duties that it implies. The author brings up a lot of interesting thoughts on who "the people" are, and what they do within American political society.

I would say if you are so unwilling to defend your country, your people, that you would flee to another State that you should proactively give up the rest of your rights and duties as part of "the people". Rights like voting and jury service.

If you don't think you will have the training and equipment to have a reasonable chance at accomplishing a stated goal and surviving and/or do not believe in the premise of the war you should be able to leave the country.

You aren't a warplanner. "You" as in "a hyopthetical objector to defensive conscription". As a veteran surely you know the difference in responsibility and information available between things like an infantryman and a General.

...like i said in the original comment have family members that were drafted into particularly unjust wars like the vietnam war.

Conscription in the Vietnam war was unconscionable. I have some strong thoughts about the war criminals in the US Government who propagated that senseless disaster. I still, however, believe there is a huge difference between 'conscription for the defense of your continued collective existence' and 'conscription for defending an ally who wants to remain a colonial power over natives'.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '24

Generals look at numbers, charts and maps. NCOs and junior commissioned officers know how the battle is going because they are living it. To say field grade officers know better is just an appeal to authority/ "the experts." They don't actually give a shit if you die a miserable worthless death in a trench with 0% chance of living... I just want to make that clear because I don't think people with no combat experience understand that. If you die in combat it might just be an insignificant statistic to your leadership but the toll is 100% on you and your family.... for many years to come.

Your first few points are very authoritarian and I guess I am very libertarian. If a nation (ie made up of individuals) believe that they are in such grave danger of losing their own existence then they should have no problem enlisting to defend their existence otherwise they are just suicidal.

My point is that the government should have:

An effective training plan for their troops

"Near-peer" equipment to match their adversary

An ample surplus of volunteers

Or else the war is lost. And a deal should be made. Playing chicken with a nuclear power is not a viable strategy. I personally do not believe it is worth having an fpv drone shoved up my ass to defend a government that just has me out there to buy time with a kevlar vest and old AK in a hastily dug trench in 2024. These people are already NOT FREE if they can't leave their country and have to deal with this against their will.

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u/Eldias Nov 28 '24 edited Nov 28 '24

Generals look at numbers, charts and maps. NCOs and junior commissioned officers know how the battle is going because they are living it. To say field grade officers know better is just an appeal to authority/ "the experts."

My point wasn't an "Appeal to Authority fallacy". To be a fallacy it's got to be a "Trust these people because they're "experts". My point was that the general civilian population likely doesn't have the information available to make an informed opinion as to whether or not "[they] will have the training and equipment to have a reasonable chance at accomplishing a stated goal".

Can we agree in that regard?

I'm totally with you in that the war-planners don't think about "you" individually as a soldier. One persons death could not trouble them less.

Your first few points are very authoritarian and I guess I am very libertarian.

Oof, there are no "shots fired" that sting as much as libertarian-on-libertarian "shots fired". If you've got some time to chill with a drink and some reading, give that last link I posted a perusing. Amar does well in describing the different "statist" and "libertarian" interpretations of the Second Amendment. I'd describe myself as a "Civil Libertarian", and so I tend to land on the libertarian-leaning therein. [If you're willing to fly the "very libertarian" flag, I hope you're familiar with Reason magazine. There was a great interview with 1A lawyer Ken White a few years back that describes what I mean by "Civil Libertarian", here is a link to it if you're interested]

If a nation (ie made up of individuals) believe that they are in such grave danger of losing their own existence then they should have no problem enlisting to defend their existence otherwise they are just suicidal.

You implied in the previous post that people should be allowed to flee their home country if they do not believe the cause just or win-able. That seems to be in conflict with "they believe or are suicidal in not joining voluntarily".

I think the points you further enumerated are good ideals to hold, but far from perfect solution when fighting a war for your continued existence. Would the "worth" in defending a front change if it could save the lives of your cousins? What about your siblings? It kind of feels like in the end you're saying "Russia is a Nuclear Power, there is no point in resisting, so just give them what they want".

Are Ukrainians any more free as subjects under the threat of nuclear annihilation than they are conscripted in defense against that threat?

Edit to add: I just wanted to say, I appreciate the thoughtful reply so far. It can be few and far-between to find decent conversations on reddit these days.

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u/Awkward_CPA Nov 27 '24

Agreed, not sure why it's controversial to suggest.

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u/Donkey_Trader1 Nov 28 '24

The my body my choice people are awfully quiet about this lol

2

u/SinnerIxim Nov 28 '24

With a death sentence at the end

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '24

[deleted]

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u/Dorago1991 Nov 28 '24

Sorry but I believe as the citizen of its country, one of your duties is to defend its soil. This isn't like Vietnam, this is a war on their soil, for their country's freedom and future. If you don't want to fight to save Ukraine's sovereignty, you don't deserve to be a citizen of Ukraine. This is the only time a draft is fair.

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u/anaIconda69 Nov 28 '24

Then why don't women get drafted?

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u/Dorago1991 Nov 28 '24

Historically, population rebuilding. A few men can repopulate the country as long as there are a lot of women. Lose too many women and it's impossible to really rebuild the population without importing tons of immigrants. There are several other reasons but that's the biggest one.

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u/anaIconda69 Nov 28 '24

Historically is cool, but why use that when we have specifically.

And specifically, in the country in question, the fertility rate is at 1.26 - and it's been close to this unsustainably low value for over a decade. We're talking a ~70% reduction in pop. size over the next 40 years or worse. This is arguably a greater hit to the nation's wellbeing than the war itself.

So why not fix it. Ukrainian women who don't have children should be eligible for the draft. Equal rights, equal duties. Anything else is gendered slavery. Or abolish the draft completely.

0

u/Dorago1991 Nov 28 '24

I have zero problem with drafting women I was just answering why women have previously been not considered. If you aren't willing to fight for your country you don't deserve to be part of it.

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u/anaIconda69 Nov 28 '24

What if your country makes you a 2nd class citizen? Is your duty to an unfair system the same?

0

u/Dorago1991 Nov 28 '24

If you think your country sucks and treats you that poorly then you should be happy to see it fall.