r/tuesday • u/JustKidding456 Believes Jesus is Messiah & God; Centre-right • 14d ago
“After UnitedHealthcare CEO Killing, Doctors Speak Out.” Wall Street Journal, December 14, 2024.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zV9qk5rIaM6
u/Maximus_2698 Right Visitor 14d ago edited 14d ago
The lionization of Luigi Mangione is grotesque. A spoiled, privileged, rich kid murdering someone in cold blood because of their profession should never be turned into a folk hero. All the supportive rhetoric on Reddit and elsewhere will only encourage copycats and is deeply authoritarian.
The simple fact is that while most Americans aren't satisfied with the American healthcare system in the abstract, a majority of Americans are satisfied with the cost of their own personal healthcare.
The primary difference between our system and a system like Canada's or the UK's is who picks up the tab. For us its private insurance, and for them it's the government. I'm sure the same people arguing that this murder shows we need to overhaul our healthcare system would not feel the same way if the NHS director in the UK was killed in the same fashion.
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u/permajetlag Left Visitor 14d ago
All the supportive rhetoric on Reddit and elsewhere [...] is deeply authoritarian.
Can you explain this? I thought the anger was populist.
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u/LanceArmsweak Right Visitor 14d ago
It was/is. A truly bipartisan voter response. I’ve been noticing many politicians, media, and C class types now trying to say “no, it’s the people who are wrong.” Wondering if they all got the same briefing, “whip the peasants into form before they do something silly.”
I can’t escape how swiftly they moved on this, which honestly will only cause more divide.
Personally, I don’t agree with the act necessarily, but I get why it happened. It’s the same reason Trump won. There are a lot of angry people who feel unseen and life is fucking hard.
I’m surprised it doesn’t happen a lot more.
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u/marinqf92 Left Visitor 12d ago
There are a lot of angry people who feel unseen and life is fucking hard.
We are talking about an absurdly rich kid with all the privilege in the world, not some downtrodden sap who was grinded down by medical debt. The health care system didn't cause this, radical online politics did.
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u/Maximus_2698 Right Visitor 14d ago
So we're just going to kill people with no due process, or when they haven't even broken any laws, just because some populists decided they deserved it? Sounds like a pretty authoritarian mindset to me.
I think you could make an argument that, historically, populism almost always devolves into authoritarianism without proper checks. I mean, would you disagree that the Trump movement, which is populist, is also deeply authoritarian?
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 14d ago
And as someone else said: Populism only rises when people feel unseen/unheard and life is fucking hard.
It's the same reason why Biden lost by downplaying the status of the economy. People felt unheard, and Trump won again. It's more of a sign of failed leadership when people start thinking "Killing CEOs is good actually".
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u/upvotechemistry Right Visitor 13d ago
So we're just going to kill people with no due process, or when they haven't even broken any laws, just because some populists decided they deserved it?
This has been happening with great fanfare already - usually at the hands of an officer with a badge. The difference here is this victim was an elite who ran a company implicated in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, and he dabbled with insider trading on the side.
People are not joyous over the murder. I think they're seeing that the law was never there to protect them to begin with. Why should we care about rule of law when the rule of law is weilded so indiscriminately to oppress the majority in service of protecting a wealthy elite? That sounds authoritarian to me.
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u/permajetlag Left Visitor 14d ago
I'd describe the Trump administration as authoritarian but am not sure how much that applies to the movement as a whole. To me, authoritarianism requires a concerted effort to become (or co-opt or maintain) a government-like central authority that performs the authoritarian actions, and most vigilantism doesn't meet that bar.
(This is not a defense of vigilantism.)
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u/SloppyxxCorn Right Visitor 12d ago
Authoritarian means power rests with a sole authority. You are describing mob rule. Populism.
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u/2fast2reddit Left Visitor 13d ago
We should probably still be a colony of the crown tbh. All that murder and destruction of property in our so called "revolution" was highly illegal.
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u/Maximus_2698 Right Visitor 13d ago
You really believe the vigilante, cold-blooded murder of an individual businessman is remotely comparable to an actual war? I'm sorry, but thats nothing short of absurd.
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u/2fast2reddit Left Visitor 13d ago
Had he gotten a bunch of his friends to crowd fund an attack on a government armory and shot the soldiers lawfully defending it in the process, that would have been preferable?
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u/Maximus_2698 Right Visitor 13d ago
No, if course not. But that still doesn't mean they're comparable. A revolution and a murder are two categorically different things.
Mangione is no revolutionary, he's a cold-blooded killer.
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u/2fast2reddit Left Visitor 13d ago
I'm sure the law abiding citizens murdered by the thugs of American aristocrats feel so much better knowing that it wasn't "real" murder.
Who gets to kill over their grievances with society? Just the wealthy?
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u/a157reverse Left Visitor 14d ago
The simple fact is that while most Americans aren't satisfied with the American healthcare system in the abstract, a majority of Americans are satisfied with the cost of their own personal healthcare.
I'm not quite sure what conclusion to make of this. Personally, I am satisfied with my healthcare costs as they are quite low as a healthy (as far as I know) young person. My healthcare costs are basically limited to the annual physical and PT for exercise related injuries from time to time. But I am dissatisfied with how my personal healthcare costs could financially destitute me if it turns out I've got cancer or have a bad car wreck or something similarly catastrophic.
I think people aren't necessarily wrong for being dissatisfied with the healthcare system even if they have limited exposure to it currently. High quality healthcare ain't cheap, and you're seeing many socialized systems start to stress under the cost pressures. Personally, not sure I would take Canadian bargain of long wait times. Unfortunately, a lot of efforts to reduce healthcare costs (such as allowing nurse practitioners to fill more roles) are seen as money grabs by the insurance companies.
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u/robbyslaughter Right Visitor 13d ago
But I am dissatisfied with how my personal healthcare costs could financially destitute me if it turns out I’ve got cancer or have a bad car wreck or something similarly catastrophic.
That’s not what would make you destitute. It would be your lack of income. If you’re in the hospital or laid up at home for months you can’t work. Pretty soon you can’t pay rent or cover your other normal bills.
Of course if you have significant medical expenses that are not covered this can make the problem worse. But personal insolvency happens in all countries and the rate is about the same in the US as it in most other wealthy nations. For serious medical needs there are differences in cost and the timing of how payment is made but perhaps the most interesting distinction is when the discrimination occurs.
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u/fragileblink Centre-right 14d ago
But I am dissatisfied with how my personal healthcare costs could financially destitute me if it turns out I've got cancer or have a bad car wreck or something similarly catastrophic.
But isn't this what catastrophic insurance is for?
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u/a157reverse Left Visitor 13d ago
Only eligible under 30.
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u/fragileblink Centre-right 13d ago
I don't think high deductible plans are only eligible under 30. This is what insurance does- keeps you from becoming financially destitute as a result of health care costs. I have a high deductible plan, the deductible is earning money in my HSA.
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u/a157reverse Left Visitor 13d ago
Oh, I thought you were talking about Catastrophic health plans. https://www.healthcare.gov/choose-a-plan/catastrophic-health-plans/
I've got a HDHP, it's a good tool and the HSA is nice. The annual cap on contributions make it hard to build up a significant savings amount though. And with how complex and opaque billing, reimbursement, covered vs non-covered, and in-network systems are, it's pretty easy to see how an insurance plan that supposedly protects you financially can fail to do so.
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u/jimmymcstinkypants Right Visitor 13d ago
The fact that you’re currently downvoted for stating “murder is bad” , and presumably not for the obviousness of it, on a centrist sub no less, is deeply troubling to me.
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u/marinqf92 Left Visitor 12d ago
I feel like I'm losing my mind. I'm desperate to find anyone in my life or online who will unequivocally condemn this vigilante murder, and it feels like a ghost town. Social media has radicalized and rotted everyone's mind.
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u/ReturnoftheTurd Right Visitor 14d ago
Let’s be a little more clear with it though. It’s not “the government” in Canada. It’s one of the provincial governments or it’s literally an insurance company, of which 65-75% of Canadians are customers.
I don’t like this characterization of “the government” doing x because in a lot of cases it isn’t “the government.” It’s a multitude of distinct governments and a patchwork of insurance companies (albeit different from the United States’ patchwork of healthcare).
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u/South-Seat3367 Right Visitor 14d ago
It makes me feel like a crazy person. When my dad got sick, I handled his insurance stuff for him, and they paid more than 99% of the treatment cost. He would have had to drain his savings and sell the house to pay it out of pocket. Am I like the only person in the country who has had a positive experience with health insurance?
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u/Vagabond_Texan Left Visitor 13d ago
Your good experience doesn't negate many others bad experiences.
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14d ago
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u/marinqf92 Left Visitor 12d ago
Thank you! I can't seem to find anyone in my life, or online, who is willing to flatly condemn this vigilante murder and it absolutely terrifies me. Social media had radicalized and rotted everyone's minds. Even centrist subs are struggling to flatly condemn it. It's maddening.
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u/LanceArmsweak Right Visitor 14d ago
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u/Maximus_2698 Right Visitor 14d ago
That's not conflicting. The link you're providing says "80% Dissatisfied With Cost Of Health Care In US", as in, generally. My link shows that most are satisfied with their healthcare costs. As in, abstract vs. individual. I don't disagree that Americans are unhappy with healthcare in general, as I said in my original comment.
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