r/trains • u/Single_Country3671 • 1d ago
Why Europe doesn't build sleeper trains as multiple units?
I've recently been researching rail transport in Japan and came across Sunrise Express trains. They're sleeper Electric Multiple Units with a seamless design, similar to High-speed or Intercity trains. Europe's Nightjet is -probably- permanently coupled locomotive and cars, so why doesn't Europe have sleeper train designs similar to Japan's? Is it easier to run as locomotive+cars or there is another issue to solve?
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u/stewcelliott 1d ago
The advantages of locos over MU's are just really attractive to sleeper services.
- Reconfiguring / dropping coaches along the way.
- Sleeper coaches by definition sit idle during the day, the locomotive can drop them in a siding and do other things during the day and you're not idling an expensive MU.
- Quieter environment in the coach for easier catching of zzz's.
- Japan is one unified railway network, Europe is decidedly not so you may need to change locomotives at borders.
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u/gromit266 1d ago
One unified netwrk-ish. The Sunrise actually crosses between two (technically three for one of the segments) independent operators. The main operators are JR West and JR Central, with one segment originating in JR Shikoku territor. Equipment was designed with some cooperation from the different operators, but there's a bit more cooperation between the units and equipment familiarization.
The sets are getting dated, but it's the last set in regular revenue service.
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u/eulerolagrange 1d ago
another thing to add: usually, every needs a specific validation to run on each railway line. Since at night there may be railway closing for maintenance works etc. trains can often be directed on alternative lines to reach the same destination, especially if not doing "marketed" stops between the last "evening" station and the first "morning" one. If the service was done by a specific night EMU, they would have to validate every alternative path beforehand, while employing a basic national locomotive it will be easier that it will be authorized almost everywhere.
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u/Sassywhat 11h ago
Japan is also an environment where the locomotive won't have much to do during the day, since daytime passenger service is effectively 100% EMU/DMU, to the point that there are diesel locomotive heritage railway tourism operations.
OBB, probably the leader of the night train revival in Europe also bought a ton of locomotives, even as many European peers were switching to EMUs.
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u/william-isaac 1d ago
most sleeper trains in central europe run through multiple different countries which means they have to juggle at worst 4 different overhead line voltages and multiple different train control systems. so changing the loco at the border might be the easiest and most economical way to do things.
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u/Son-Of-Sloth 1d ago
Yeah, I got the Ister sleeper train from Budapest to Brasov last November. Three locomotive changes (The last one at Brasov as I got off) and a change of some of the rolling stock along the way.
That's the last loco that was added as I got off, beautiful. My sleeping car was at the front when we left Budapest, it was about half way down the train when we arrived in Brasov.
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u/cryorig_games 1d ago
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u/Son-Of-Sloth 1d ago edited 1d ago
That's a beauty to. I'm booked on a North East Regional service on 7th October this year, very excited, New York to Boston. Planning on getting a loco hauled service up the Hudson on the same trip and another few out of Boston North. Finish up that trip with a Bullet Train from Tokyo.
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u/me-gustan-los-trenes 1d ago
While this is true, there are many cases of daytime connections on same routes as night trains, that don't change locos. So I don't think this is a complete explanation.
For example there is an ICE (EMU!) between Zürich and Berlin, or there is RJX between Zürich and Wien.
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u/william-isaac 1d ago
i think you missed the "at worst" part. the relations you just used as an example are hardly the worst case scenario.
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u/cyri-96 1d ago
Yep the differences are minimal, considering the only thing that really changes between Switzerland and Austria/Germany is the pantograph width needed (Austrian and German contact wires zigzag more).
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u/me-gustan-los-trenes 1d ago
fair
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u/eulerolagrange 1d ago
For example there is an ICE (EMU!) between Zürich and Berlin, or there is RJX between Zürich and Wien.
Yes, but day trains run on tight schedules so it's more efficient to use a locomotive/EMU that can be interoperated between all the countries it crosses. Night trains usually allow for huge buffer times at intermediate stops so there's more time to change locomotive at the border. This also makes easier to divert the train on alternative paths should some lines be closed due to maintenance at night, because rolling stock has to be validated on each line it runs on.
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u/QuuxJn 1d ago
Trains between Switzerland and Germany/Austria are nit really where to problem lies
All three countries use the same electrical system (15kV 16⅔Hz) and you only need two sets of pantographs and two sets of safety systems.
The the EN Zürich-Zagreb for example. It passes through 4 different countries, 3 different electrical systems and two different safety systems. Now tell me an EMU which does an comparable journey.
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u/coomzee 1d ago
I suppose the unification of 25kv is making good progress. ETCS is going a bit slower
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u/QuuxJn 1d ago
Except in Switzerland it's the reverse. 25kV is nowhere to be seen and probably also will not be seen anytime in the far future, bur ETCS is already fully implemented.
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u/caligula421 20h ago
15kV and 25kV isn't too difficult to both handle with the same locomotive/EMU, and the progress of 25kV is probably not visible. Germany for example makes all new construction ready for 25kV, but just runs 15kV everywhere so it's uniform everywhere and old rolling stock is usable everywhere. But I wouldn't expect any switching in the next ~50 years, since even new rolling stock that isn't running international is ordered with anything else than 15kV.
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u/Timely_Condition3806 12h ago
25kv is only really used on high speed rail, no? Is any country planning to switch their system?
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u/losttownstreet 1d ago
Europe is moving from integrated trains back to lokomotives. Integrated units are good for short trains ... but the trains get longer and longer. As you can ride a train with no additional costs in multiple countries (germany, Portugal, mayby Austria with UmweltCard) the useage is skyroketing and trains need to be longer.
Another faktor is you work in densly populated centers but need to comute as housing is expensive in these centers (100 Euro/ m² and month).
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u/QuuxJn 1d ago
Europe is moving from integrated trains back to lokomotives.
Do you have a source for that? Here in Switzerland we have not purchased classic loco-wagin trains since the late 90s. The IC2000 coaches and Re 460 locos were the last (main line) trains I can think of. After that it's only EMU's.
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u/uh_clemm 1d ago
Do european sleeper trains do set-outs and pick-ups like US used to do? For example you would board a car at 8 pm, but the train wouldnt come through and pick up the car until much later like 2 am. The same thing at the destination. Set out you car in the middle of the night, but you could stay on until morning. This would be a reasone to use seperate cars rather than EMU'S
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u/BladeA320 1d ago
That is not happening in europe. What is happening is that trains split up into several destinations, one part of the train goes to a different destination
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u/QuuxJn 1d ago
I can see two main reasons.
Tgese trains operate across multiple countries so you'd have to build in every electrical and safety system the train will be used in which can be a lot of system and thus a major pain in the ass. Single wagons are fairly standardized and you can just slap a locomotive of the respective country on the front an call it a day.
Night trains often get mixed and matched and shortened and longed throughout the night, which is not possible with EMU's unless you have super shirt EMU's which would also be a pain for other reasons. Or you'd have to run multiple trains following each ither which is much more expensive.
Tl;dr you'd have to make a pretty short EMU with many different electric and safety system and then it's just better to have a classical loco-wagon train.
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u/mcas1987 3h ago
Lots of people have done a good job of explaining why Europe doesn't use sleeper EMUs, and the advantages of individual cars, so I'm not going to get into those details. Instead I also want to point out that even in Japan, Sleeper EMUs were more of an exception than the rule. Prior to the 2010s, Japan had a fairly extensive network of night train services, and most of those services used traditional sleeper cars. You had some sleeper services using the 581/583 series EMUs running on the Tokyo-Aomori run, but for the most part even into the JR era, sleeper services were run using sleeper cars. By the 2000s, the 581/583s had mostly been retired from night train services, with most remaining night trains using 14, 20, 24 series sleepers. By 2010, of the 8 remaining services, only the two Sunrise trains used 285 series EMUs and the Kitaguni using 583 series EMUs, while the rest used sleeper cars.
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u/FirefighterRude9219 1d ago
I took once a sleeper train from Brno to Budapest, and it was a terrible experience. Too hot, not enough fresh air. Artificially slowed down so it took around 7 hours. I think there should be some kind of capsule sleeper trains or sth like that.
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u/BobbyP27 1d ago
The new night jet mini-cabin compartments are literally that: capsule sleepers. It's taking time to get the new cars built and in service, as demand is significantly outstripping the availability of cars, but in time they will be in service.
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u/Adorable-Cut-4711 1d ago
Also: Afaik the rubber nose multiple units (common in Belgium, Denmark and Sweden) aren't allowed for new construction due to safety concerns. (A shunting mistake in Denmark resulted in the front falling in on a train, and the driver didn't make it :( ).
Without rubber noses or some other method of easily walking between multiple units, I don't think they are suitable for night trains.
Also: Denmark runs regular "day trains" all night on a few routes. I think this is something that other railways should also do.
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u/OllieV_nl 1d ago
Lack of demand, probably?
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u/me-gustan-los-trenes 1d ago
There is a lot of demand for sleeper trains in Europe. Just try to book a sleeper from Berlin to Zürich or München to Warsaw and you'll see how badly they are booked out. The problem is a shortage on the supply side.
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u/Mazon_Del 1d ago
There is a lot of demand for sleeper trains in Europe.
Definitely.
I'm in Stockholm and I really WANT to use trains...but it takes about 16 hours to get to Berlin (which is BASICALLY a required stop to get from Stockholm to anywhere in continental Europe) and you almost always need 2 or 3 changes to get there.
If I could hop on a train Thursday night after work, sleep through the evening, and arrive in Berlin that would be amazing.
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u/ObviouslySpecific 1d ago edited 8h ago
Are you aware that there is a daily night train run by SJ from Stockholm to Berlin? It leaves at 17:34 and arrives in Berlin at 09:24. No changes needed, and you can also get sleeper cabins with proper beds if you want to get extra comfort. Maybe it does not work for you because of the timetable, but the option is there.
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u/Mazon_Del 23h ago
I actually wasn't, that could definitely be accommodated. Can you give me more info on that one? Thanks!
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u/ObviouslySpecific 22h ago
Just search on sj.se or the SJ-app for the connection „Stockholm-Berlin“ and it should show up. Prices vary depending on the day, if you book further in advance you can get better prices than this one.
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u/AnonymousWaster 1d ago
Because travelling overnight should require a high quality locomotive hauled train, not some rancid multiple unit.
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u/SteveisNoob 1d ago
Someone needs to board some Stadler stock or a high speed train.
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u/Stefan0017 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is the worst take in the history of R/Trains. You can have great sleeper EMU's like the CR450BF, Stadler FLIRT, and even a trainset with locomotive like the Nightjet next level.
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u/AnonymousWaster 7h ago
Don't be ridiculous, it's a perfectly reasonable opinion. Multiple units are shite, and as if posting a picture of some awful fizzy plastic stadler junk disproves that.
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u/Stefan0017 6h ago
That was an example of what trains I was talking about... there is not enough proof to say EMU's are worse than coaches. There are loads of coaches and locomotives that are shit, so there is no point of only saying EMU's are (they are mostly not).
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u/me-gustan-los-trenes 1d ago
Most sleeper trains in Europe are quite complex operations involving mixing cars in the middle.
For example (not sure if accurate, but an idea): trains come from München, Graz and Budapest. They meet in Bohumin. Then cars are mixed between trains and then trains depart to Warsaw, Berlin, Kraków.
This way there are direct connections from each München, Graz, Budapest to each Berlin, Warsaw, Kraków without operating nine separate trains.
Besides, there is general shortage of sleeper train rolling stock in Europe. It's faster and cheaper to address the shortage by introducing more coaches for loco-pulled trains than to build EMUs. Maybe once there is enough capacity, the operators can think of new shiny EMUs for premium service?