r/theology • u/FullAbbreviations605 • 5d ago
What do you guys think about the seven headed beast in book of revelation representing ideas or movements rather than nations or rulers?
This concept has always made much more sense to me, especially given that the battle is against powers and principalities. I don’t at all view this as referring to seven nations or seven rulers, but what do I know? It’s very symbolic obviously.
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u/TheMeteorShower 5d ago
Revelation 17:9-10 [9]And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. [10]And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
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u/adieue MA in Catholic Theology 4d ago
From a historical perspective, the seven-headed beast is undoubtedly a reference to the context in which the author lived, period. From there, guessing its meaning requires a solid understanding of that context (while acknowledging that this context may be partially or entirely inaccessible because information about it could have been lost over time).
But technically, we can’t rule out the possibility that the author may have had mental health issues and that the whole thing stems from hallucinatory delusions mistaken for divine revelations.
It’s also possible to suppose that, since it’s "inspired by God," the text could mean something entirely different to the traditionnal understanding, relevant to today.
In other words, objectively, well yeah. Why not? lol!
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u/Finnerdster 3d ago
There are three “beasts” mentioned in the book of Revelation. There are several important and well-documented “sevens” as well.
Biblical scholars generally identify the first beast from the sea with the Roman Empire, particularly with Emperor Nero.
The beast from the earth is generally identified with the Roman Imperial Cult. Sometimes there is a particular identification with a personage such as a chief administrator of Roman rule in Ephesus and Asia Minor. This is probably the provincial governor who would have overseen the political and religious operations of the area from his capital in Ephesus or the High Priest of the provincial imperial cult. The imperial cult in Ephesus was set up by Domitian in AD 89. (Ephesus is the location of one of the seven churches in Asia to whom the Book of Revelation was addressed.) This interpretation is based upon the angel's explanation of the beast in Revelation 17:7-10 that the beast's seven heads are seven kings, and that Nero, is the sixth king "who is", who was possibly alive and the emperor reigning at the time that the author was writing the book. Moreover, Rome was known in antiquity as the city of seven hills (Revelation 17:9) and Revelation was a warning about events that were "shortly" to take place (Revelation 1:1).
In Revelation 13:5-8, the beast was given a mouth speaking in blasphemies against God. This is also clearly a reference to Nero. Inscriptions have been found in Ephesus in which Nero is called "Almighty God" and "Savior". In verse 4, the beast is worshiped by the world alongside the dragon that gave it authority. Nero and Caligula "abandoned all reserve" in promoting emperor worship—they were the only two who demanded divine honors while still alive. Nero even claimed to be the sun-god Apollo.
Revelation 13:7 speaks of the power given to the beast to make war with the saints. Nero was the first of the imperial authorities to persecute Christianity. Tacitus records the scene in Rome when the persecution of Christians broke out: "And their death was aggravated with mockeries, insomuch that, wrapped in the hides of wild beasts, they were torn to pieces by dogs, or fastened to crosses to be set on fire, that when the darkness fell they might be burned to illuminate the night."
Revelation 13:5 says that the beast would continue for 42 months. The Neronic persecution was instituted in AD 64 and lasted until his death in June AD 68, which is 42 months.
Nero was even called the beast. Apolonius of Tyana specifically states: "In my travels, which have been wider than ever man yet accomplished, I have seen man, many wild beasts of Arabia and India; but this beast, that is commonly called a Tyrant, I know not how many heads it has, nor if it be crooked of claw, and armed with horrible fangs. ...And of wild beasts you cannot say that they were ever known to eat their own mother, but Nero has gorged himself on this diet."
The manner of Nero's death corresponds with the “prophecy” of Revelation 13:10: "If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if any one kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed." According to Tertullian, Nero was the first to assail the Christian sect with the imperial sword. He committed suicide by the sword at age 30.
After Nero's death in AD 68, Rome saw a quick succession of short-lived emperors (Galba, Otho, and Vitellius) and a year of civil wars until Vespasian eventually took control in AD 69. The Roman Empire destabilized so greatly that Tacitus reported: "Many believed the end of the empire was at hand". According to Suetonius, to the surprise of the world, "the empire which for a long time had been unsettled and, as it were, drifting through the usurpation and violent death of three emperors, was at last taken in and given stability by the Flavian family". This may be a reference to the mortal wound on one of the heads of the beast "inflicted by the sword" which was later healed (Revelation 13:3, 13:14). D. K. Wong (2003) wrote that the "healing of the wound" alludes to the so-called Nero Redivivus legend ("revival of Nero" myth). A rumor which said that Nero had just disappeared to Parthia, and would one day reappear.
Finally, the readers of Revelation were told to "calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six" (Rev. 13:18). The author of Revelation did not expect his readers "who had understanding" to have any difficulty identifying the beast, since they could simply calculate the meaning of this number. "Neron Kaisar" (Νερων Καισαρ the Greek rendering, documented by archaeological finds), when transliterated into Hebrew is: נרון קסר (Nrwn Qsr). When using standard mispar hechrechi encoding of gematria, adding the corresponding values yields 666, as shown: Resh (ר) Samech (ס) Qof (ק) Nun (נ) Vav (ו) Resh (ר) Nun (נ) total 200 60 100 50 6 200 50 666 The variant number 616 found in some manuscripts of the Greek text of Revelation may represent the alternative Hebrew spelling נרו קסר (Nrw Qsr) based on the Latin form "Nero Caesar". The variant probably existed to keep consistent the meaning of Nero as the beast.
The data support the theory that Nero was the beast, that the “prophecies” were accurate because they were only written after they had already “come to pass”, and that the numerous “sevens” were references to things that would be understood by the intended audience of the time (seven hills, seven churches, seven kings, etc.). While it may be fun to take a Lovecraftian approach to historical fiction and make up some wild theories that cannot technically be disproven, some of us prefer to stick to the ones that are backed up by the preponderance of actual data.
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u/FullAbbreviations605 3d ago
So your take is that the Book of Revelation isn’t really a revelation at all? It just an allegorized version of ancient history AND that the audience would have understood as such?
Interesting. I don’t think anyone can assert with any seriousness that is the widely held view among Biblical scholars. And if it is, why did you refer to it as prophecy at all?
It’s also curious you apply the term “Lovecraftian” to my thoughts. I certainly wasn’t trying to infuse the horror genre into it. I guess you could just mean fantasy, but that’s what I’d say about the Book of Revelation, which is foretelling the second coming of Christ, to be about events that already happened.
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u/Finnerdster 4d ago
It has been well established and agreed upon by Biblical scholars that all of Revelation is an apocalyptic prophecy for the author’s time, but it feels like OP is just looking for people to pat them on the back for the random “theory” they just thought up on their own with zero data to support it.
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u/FullAbbreviations605 3d ago
Yes it is a prophecy. And it is equally well established that prophetic texts are often very symbolic. Your statement really does absolutely nothing to inform a discussion about what, hypothetically, the beast might be intended to represent.
P.S. it was just something I wanted to get others thoughts on. I don’t need a pat on the back. Sounds like you may need a hug though. Hope you’re having a good day.
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u/Piddle_Posh_8591 5d ago
Why is the book of Revelation in the future?