How do conditionalists harmonize this Mt. 13 parable?

[u/Piddle_Posh_8591]

I am reading "the fire that consumes" by Fudge (10 out of 10 would recommend) and am having a hard time harmonizing the Mt. 13 parable that says the weeds (tares) are thrown into the fire where they experience weeping and gnashing of teethe.

Elsewhere Fudge explains that the weeping throughout the Bible always come in anticipation of suffering or in sympathy for others but there isn't one place in the Bible where it is experienced as a result of suffering/ torment etc.

This passage seems to say that the tares are thrown into the "fiery furnace" where they experience weeping and gnashing of teethe.

Thanks to anyone who can help.

[u/WrongCartographer592]

This seems pretty clear... just because it's the only place doesn't make it less probable imo. Makes sense in context..

[u/Piddle_Posh_8591 → u/WrongCartographer592]

So you're saying this verse may be enough to rest the eternal conscious torment view on? Sorry if I am misunderstanding.

[u/WrongCartographer592 → u/Piddle_Posh_8591]

I actually don't see much to make me believe eternal conscious torment... at least for the vast majority. I've spent a lot of effort on that... but destruction by fire... even an unquenchable fire (doesn't mean eternal).... yes... still a reason to weep and gnash teeth.

[u/Piddle_Posh_8591 → u/WrongCartographer592]

Yea I agree. The more I read the less I agree with ECT.

I think I see what you're saying now. You're just saying that there can be weeping and gnashing of teethe (regardless of what emotions they represent) in hell and not just in other situations.

[u/WrongCartographer592 → u/Piddle_Posh_8591]

Yes...that's just my opinion...but I put a lot of effort in trying to find harmony with the scriptures...and that approach has helped me either avoid or dig my way out of error.

ECT is one that is complicated, there are verses people use that "seem" to suggest it, but the weight of scripture leans against it.

Something that has helped me with these difficult themes (ECT, Faith vs Works, etc) is to recognize the bible employs paradox ..two opposing ideas which are both true...but need a key to be reconciled. This is a mechanism similar to parables to hide from some while revealing to others.

A great example is Jesus being foretold as both a Conquering King and Suffering Servant in the OT. How confusing to be a 1st century Jew...waiting for a military figure to overthrow Rome...reestablish the Davidic Kingdom, bring glory to Israel while subduing her enemies....right? They saw that "they" wanted to see in scripture and missed their Messiah. The key obviously was two advents...which they were unable to see at the time.

We have the benefit of history/hindsight to see how both of these descriptions are both true...even though they were in opposition to each other at the time....and this was by design. It's a component of scripture ...that allows some to find truth and others to persist in error...based upon the condition of their own hearts. You can see this at play in some of these other areas where we can't agree....because both sides see something different...based upon where they are at in relationship....or rebellion / ignorance...etc.

What do you think is the strongest verse to support ECT?

[u/Piddle_Posh_8591 → u/WrongCartographer592]

"A great example is Jesus being foretold as both a Conquering King and Suffering Servant in the OT. How confusing to be a 1st century Jew...waiting for a military figure to overthrow Rome...reestablish the Davidic Kingdom, bring glory to Israel while subduing her enemies....right?" Lol great point.

As far as verses to support ECT.. I mean Rev. 14:11 has always been the one that people struggle with but Is. 34:10 controls our understanding of the verse. Can it really mean in Revelation what it never meant in Is. 34? It was describing the literal destruction of the Edomites. Further, it seems to fit perfectly the destruction of the Jews in 70A.D. when the Romans performed their "conflagration" of the city. They "had no rest day or night" in that the Romans sieged it day and night for weeks at a time, using onagers and catapults to fling burning pitch and tar over the walls of the city.

As far as "the smoke of their torment goes up day and night" - of course that was also used earlier in scripture but I also wonder if the ancient Jewish people even understood or perceived that smoke ever "ceased to exist." These people lives in a pre-scientific world. What if they thought that smoke just continued to rise throughout the universe forever? Probably not that likely but it's just a thought.

The Hebrews and other peoples used hyperbole throughout their literature to describe destruction and military victories etc.

[u/WrongCartographer592 → u/Piddle_Posh_8591]

I'm impressed....most miss the connection to Is 34:10. That same langauage is used symbolically....with imagery of burning sulfur and fire and smoke rising forever....but as it happened in a specific place and time....we can "see" that it was not literal. I mean animals still live there...so the fires obviously went out. And if we want to find harmony in the scriptures we could then interpret Rev 14:11 similarly...and remove the need for ECT...and replace it with anniliation....by fire....a punsihment that never ends...because it's final...death also fits that category...and their perishing will be a reminder to all...of the consequences of sin and rebellion. The 1st death was not a permenant punishment for the sins of Adam...because all are resurrected...but there is no such repreive from the 2nd death....everlasting reproach.

Now here we get to the paradox....we have fire, punishment, weeping and gnashing of teeth, use of the words "eternal" and "unquenchable".....how can we fit all of this together...in a way that best demonstrates what we know about God and his charachter...."and" hamonizes the rest of the scriptures? This can be intrepreted both ways...but I would contend that those pusing for ECT have a distorted view of God and a lack of knowledge of the scriptures.

What best achieves all goals? What best demonstrates justice? I mean if sin is to be done away with...how can billions of tormented souls cursing us and God for eternity meet that goal? How is heaven a place of joy and bliss...when we have knowledge of loved ones burning forever. I can fully accept that not all my loved ones will make it...and I can move on knowing they are just gone....but ECT runs into contradictions that I don't see answers for. What I do know...is that the OT is crystal clear about the state of the dead...in the first death...so it seems irresponsible to redefine death to means something completely different (eternal life)....for the 2nd death.

I just wish it wasn't so fully supported by early writers who I respect...it's hard for me to believe I saw something they missed...but it is what it is.

[u/Crimson3312 → u/WrongCartographer592]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by

What I do know...is that the OT is crystal clear about the state of the dead...in the first death...so it seems irresponsible to redefine death to means something completely different (eternal life)....for the 2nd death.

[u/WrongCartographer592 → u/Crimson3312]

Sure...it's usually referred to as sleep or sleeping in the dust (Job3:11, 7:21)

Returning to the earth...thoughs perish. Psalm 146:3-4

"Before I go hence and be no more." Psalm 39:13

"He is like the beasts that perish...beauty shall consume in the grave (sheol) Psalm 49:19

"Counted as them that go down to the pit." Psalm 88:

"Dwelt in silence." Psalm 94:17

"For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness." Isaiah 38:18

"Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten." Ecc 9:4

Pretty consistent ...

[u/Crimson3312 → u/WrongCartographer592]

I think the context you are missing is the Isrealite/Jewish concept of the afterlife: Sheol. It's not just a grave, Sheol is the underworld, the abode of the dead. Beliefs regarding it evolved considerably in the first millennium BC, but the biggest evolutions came in the Persian and Second Temple Era. Originally, Sheol was similar to other pagan religions in which the state of the dead relied on filial piety of the living. It was a place of gloom and silence where the dead meandered aimlessly, but their state could be eased by offerings and prayers.

The Hezekiahan Reforms banned these practices as belonging to the gentiles, and then subsequently, during the Persian and 2TE, the belief reformed to be merit based, where the patriarchs and faithful occupy a good portion, while the rest were tormented. When Christ gives the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and mentions Lazarus crossing over to the "Bosom of Abraham", or "Abraham's portion" this is a direct reference to Sheol, that the Jews he's speaking to would know.

In the Harrowing of Hell, where Jesus descends into the underworld and kicks open the gates to bring the righteous up to heaven, this is the place he's defending to.

The point of all this being: For the Hebrews/Isrealites/Jews, death wasn't just physical. The first death, as you put it, was both physical and spiritual. They didn't just die physically, but they abode under the ground, outside the presence and sight of God. They could do nothing, affect nothing, say nothing, they just existed and dark and gloom. Only if called through occult practices, like the Witch of Endor, could they be brought back up to interact with the living. The author of Ecclesiastes laments that Sheol is the fate of all, good and bad. Only the select few like Enoch and Elijah, were permitted to ascend to Heaven.

So taken in this context, the 2nd Death being permanent spiritual death, would not necessarily be changing the meaning of the word or be in contradiction with the descriptions you mentioned, and would be in keeping with Christ's promise of Eternal Life in heaven. The righteous receive the Beatific vision, and are granted eternal life in the presence of God, while the lost receive the permanent spiritual death outside the gates cut of from the presence of God.

[u/Crimson3312 → u/WrongCartographer592]

A better question would be, what do you understand ECT to be?

[u/WrongCartographer592 → u/Crimson3312]

What is mostly orthodox I guess...a place where the lost are constantly burned in some sort of fire that never consumes them....while they are consicouly tormented by it forever?

[u/Crimson3312 → u/WrongCartographer592]

I'd say that's not really an orthodox outlook. The "Fires of Hell" so to speak, is more metaphorical than it is literal, and is interpreted a number of ways. The Orthodox, as they have explained it to me, believe the fires of hell to be God's presence. They believe all will receive the Beatific Vision, but while the righteous are glorified by God's presence, the unrighteous find God's presence to be caustic.

Catholicism, and its offshoots in Protestantism, being much more influenced by St. Augustine, view it as the lost being tormented on account of their sins. But I think what is lost in that is even the Medieval thinkers who created this concept of hell where sinners, ( and in some itteratiosn demons) are put on the rack for their crimes, understood this was an allegorical representation. Most prominantly this promulgated by the works of Dante and Milton, but they're not meant to be taken overly literally. Dante's Inferno especially is a representation of Christian Humanist philosphy.

Scripture, as I noted in my other comment, describes "hell" as exclusion, and the torment as "a thirst that can never be quenched." We see this in the OP's passage, as well as the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The torment Christ describes is akin to starving and thirsting. And Christ uses quite a few sustenance teachings, like the Living Water that those who drink it will never thirst.

If we truly undestand Christ's words, within the Jewsih Cosmological Framework that was professed by Jews in the first century AD, the everlasting torment is to be cut off from God's grace, and to forever long for it as starving man longs for food, or a thirsty man longs for water.

[u/WrongCartographer592 → u/Crimson3312]

Quite a bit of latitude there with the scriptures...I don't put much stock in Augustine personally...and I tend to look for the clear meaning without letting allegory or symbolism take me farther than intended.

[u/Crimson3312 → u/WrongCartographer592]

I wouldn't say I took any latitude. As my favorite professor in divinity school used to say, when approaching scripture we must first understand that we are gentiles who are essentially overhearing a Jewish conversation. Christ's parables on the afterlife fit into the Jewish cosmology of the Persian and Second Temple periods, which Christ was born into.

And, I don't rest too much on Augustine either, but his influence on Western Christianity cannot be denied.

[u/Crimson3312]

I'll preface this by saying I haven't read Fudge's work, so I'm hesitant to poo poo his arguments, but based on what you've said, the simple answer is Fudge is wrong, and guilty of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. He's making a common hermeneutical mistake in assuming idioms mean the same thing everytime they're used. For example, I see this all the time with rock metaphors. People assume because Isaiah 28:16 is considered a messianic prophecy, that any and all references to rocks are implicetly referring to Christ. This is not so: context matters. Weeping is weeping, people weep for a variety of reasons. Just because we never really see a person weep for themselves, doesn't have any implication on the use of the word here. It's pretty straitforward. The greek word here is κλαυθμός, which means to weep in the context of lamentation.

The Gnashing of teeth is much more identifable idiom, that's commonly used as a demonstration of resentment. the devil gnashed his teeth at Job, the Babylonians hissed and gnashed their teeth at the Jews, Psalms speaks of wicked men, gnashing their teeth at their adversaries, etc etc.

We can go deep into the cosmologial outlook to truly understand the passage, but really the simplest thing is to cross reference this with Matthew 8:11-12:

 I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,  while the heirs of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Or Luke 12:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrown out.

The parable of the Tares is an image of being throwing away. The righteous will inherit the kindgom of heaven, while the unrighteous will be exiled, cast out of the city, thrown away. And while those inside the city will be content and glorified, those outside will be downcast, lamenting and resentful.

It's the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, in point of fact.

For the conditionalists though, this doesn't necessarily preclude anihilation. The Second Death is a product of the Final Judgment, and that happens whenever God decides that it happens. St. Paul thought it would happen in his life time, and yet here we are 2000 years later still going. But we also concede that the dead aren't just sleeping in that time, they receive a particular judgment, either to heaven/purgatory, or to damnation. So it's a reasonable interpretation that the damned will be cast outside the city where the lamentation and the resentment, and then at a time God so decides, they will be eliminated permanently.

[u/Pleronomicon]

The fire in Matt 13 is the judgement that fell upon Jerusalem in 70 AD. Matthew was written for a Jewish audience, and the Parable of the Wedding Feast in Matt 22 offers more clarity.

[Mat 22:7 NASB95] 7 "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and *set their city on fire*.

[u/ben_is_second]

It’s been awhile since I read fudge, but he was very formative in a terminal paper I wrote back in undergrad and convinced me of the doctrine of terminal punishment.

As I understand it - just because the punishment terminates in annihilation, doesn’t mean that there won’t be suffering for a time. Indeed, while we’re SAVED by grace through faith, and not be works, we are indeed punished according to our works if we are outside the covenant of Christ.

As such, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for a time, commensurate with the punishment due to that particular sinner, which will then culminate in their final and total destruction.

[u/setst777]

Eternal Punishment in the NT is described in many ways. Sometimes the words used make it appear as if a person is destroyed or are in eternal death; but, in view of the other Passages that describe a place outside that is of regret, torment, and cutting off from God's presence, I am thinking that "death" or "destruction" on a spiritual level is not like the death physically of the body; rather, spiritual death is to be cut off from God's Presence and blessings. For instance, those who refuse salvation are dead (spiritually), but are not annihilated.

The Second Death and unquenchable fire is also described as "outer darkness" and "Outside" where the unredeemed are cast at the Judgement (Revelation 22:12-15).

Revelation 22:14-15 (WEB) 14 Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. 15 {{Outside}} are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Luke 13:28-29 (WEB) 28 There (in that place) will be [future] weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in God’s Kingdom, and yourselves being thrown {{{outside}}}. 29 They will come from the east, west, north, and south, and will sit down in God’s Kingdom.”

Matthew 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness. That is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be [future place].

Matthew 25:30 (WEB) Throw out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness, where [in that place] there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Matthew 8:11-12 (WEB) 11 I tell you that many will come from the east and the west, and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven, 12 but the children of the Kingdom will be thrown outside into the outer darkness. There will be (future) weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Blessings