About Neil's death and the bullet

[u/iosdev98]

https://youtu.be/SSzHno-reTM?si=R9JTPN8QWHJg2FYB

I don't know if this exact fan theory has been discussed before but, after watching Tenet so many times (I watched it yesterday and still amazes me that it gets better each time you watch it. A really underrated film and one of the best films ever made by Nolan, specially from a technical view, starring the best female Nolan character, too), the conclusion I came with that makes the most sense about Neil's death to me is this one, though I could be wrong.

From Neil's POV (i.e Inverted):

1) He inverts himself (after having acquired the algorithm and shared it with Ives and TP), either before tunnel is blocked or waiting to be unblocked from the explosion.

2) He gets though the gate (which is unlocked) and opens it for The Protagonist and Ives

3) When TP and Ives finish what they were doing, Neil locks the door (i.e unlocking it from TP and Ives' POV so they can get through it, kill Volkov and obtaining the final algorithm)

4) He gets shot "normally" by Volkov (i.e a forward bullet) few seconds after having locked the door and he dies, falling to the floor while having that killing bullet located in Neil's corpse. Nothing else, no magical bullet appearing or disappearing from nothingness

Now, from Volkov's POV (i.e Forward):

1) He puts an explosion trap at the entrance of the tunnel much time before any Tenet member (neither inverted or forward) can access the tunnel.

2) He locks the gate and prepares the algorithm explosives.

3) He faces TP and Ives and knocks down Ives.

4) He and Sator discusses with TP.

5) Sator tells him to kill TP.

6) Now's the key moment. He approches the gate to kill TP BUT, instead of firing a normal bullet, he is not really "shooting" but getting back the bullet. And he gets back that bullet by having Neil's corpse stand up by himself, the killing bullet is "retrieved" through Neil's head right to his gun, Neil is "alived" and unlocks the gate.

So, in a few words, the bullet is inverted, the gun is not. And Vulkov didn't know it, hence his surprise face retrieving a bullet instead of really firing it (well, that and watching someone come back to life and unlocking the gate that you originally locked is pretty shocking, too).

It's like that scientist scene at the beginning of the film, where TP is using a normal gun in front of a rock but instead of firing, he's getting back the bullet stored in that rock.

In other words, like in Neil's death, the gun is NORMAL but the bullet is INVERTED. It's the same thing.

[u/doloros_mccracken]

To summarize the concensus from previous discussions:

Neil was shot with a forward bullet that lodged itself into the back of his helmet, and rode out with him. The bullet fell out of the helmet before(after) Neil returned to the turnstile.

I subscribe to your alternate theory, the Inverted Bullet.

The missing element in your description is Neil would have to load the bullet.

After opening the gate to let himself in the cage he un-drops Volkov’s gun, flying up into his hand.  Neil loads the inverted bullet and drops the gun where it fell when shot out of Volkov’s hand by The  Protagonist.

The only gap in this theory is that Nolan didn’t show Neil loading the gun.  But he didn’t show a forward Bullet falling out of the helmet either.

The inverted bullet provides another strong argument in favour based on the rules of the Tenet universe.

Once the inverted bullet is loaded, it has to be shot so that the gun can shoot Ives in the head.

Everyone else is alive when Neil arrives, so he has to be the one shot by the bullet.  This also avoids another widely discussed issue, how can an inverted person be shot by a non-inverted person?

Welcome to Team Inverted Bullet!  I need company.

[u/Alive_Ice7937 → u/doloros_mccracken]

Why would Neil do this though? Plus when would he get the opportunity to do so? From Neils perspective, he opens the gate, holds it open until TP reverse exits it, then closes it and gets immediately shot by Vulkov.

[u/doloros_mccracken → u/Alive_Ice7937]

Neil would do this to maximize the success of his plan.

He knows from Ives there’s a locked gate, and he knows Volkov is waiting for them.

Neil goes in inverted so that he doesn’t have to pick any locks, he’s going to inverted-close the gates to unlock and open them instantaneously for Red Team.  (Advanced Tenet operative move.)

As we see, this can be done from both outside or inside the gate.

Either way, Neil will be in the line of fire as he opens the gate.  He’s going to have to sacrifice himself to give TP a few moments to take out Volkov with this distraction.

He also realizes that as a dead body he’ll be overlooked until the big surprise.  So getting shot and killed is a requirement of the plan.

Unfortunately, how do you get shot and killed while inverted?  You would have to time it perfectly with the shooter intending to shoot something else.  It’s why this point is still discussed here so frequently.  Puzzled watchers always come away with - where is the bullet?

Regular Bullet Theory is weak here.  It relies on Neil having heard on the radio, or been told by TP that Sator said: ‘Volkov, shoot him in the head’, and Neil figured out how to use this.  Even then, Sator says this after Neil’s dead, so it’s really of no use to inverted Neil.

Neither would Neil see Volkov preparing to shoot.  He would only see the shocked Volkov stumbling.  Neil is dead before Volkov aims the gun.  How did Neil time taking the regular bullet?

Finally getting back to your question:

Neil knows when he arrives Vulkov will have been defeated somehow.  This will provide the opportunity to load the inverted bullet into the gun.

Once Neil loads that bullet it will have to get shot, ideally as he opens (inverted-closes) the gate, giving TP a moment to act to disarm Vulkov, rush in and overtake him.

---

A further deduction from Inverted Bullet Theory is that loading the inverted bullet caused Sator to say:  ‘Vulkov shoot him in the head.’

This reconciles Volkov’s gun with no inverted bullet in it at that moment, and Volkov’s gun with the inverted bullet it just caught 5 seconds in the future.

---

Form an opportunity perspective, this theory relies on choppy time skipping editing, and Nolan intentionally not showing it to allow for all this theorizing we’re doing.

But after recently returning to a detailed analysis of what is and isn’t shown in the Tallin heist, there’s very strong precedent for this position.

[u/Alive_Ice7937 → u/doloros_mccracken]

Neil goes in inverted so that he doesn’t have to pick any locks,

Its hard to say for sure because at both ends he doesn't look to do much to open or close the gate. But the main reason he needed to be inverted was so that, (in forwards time), he could ensure that he was able to lock Ives and TP into the hypercentre without being shot by Vulkov first. Them being trapped in there was key to the success of the mission

Either way, Neil will be in the line of fire as he opens the gate.  He’s going to have to sacrifice himself to give TP a few moments to take out Volkov with this distraction.

He isn't doing it to distract Vulkov. He's doing it because he literally has no time because Vulkov shoots him the moment he closes the gate. There's just no time window for anything else.

Neil is dead before Volkov aims the gun.  How did Neil time taking the regular bullet?

You're looking at the outcome and assuming intent here. Neil knows he has to hold the gate to allow TP and Ives into the hypercentre. He knows that doing this will leave him in a position where nobody can save him.

Neil knows when he arrives Vulkov will have been defeated somehow.  This will provide the opportunity to load the inverted bullet into the gun.

The timescale doesn't allow for it. In forwards time, as soon as Neil unlocks the gate he stands there waiting for Ives to enter then locks it immediately. Ives picks up a gun from the floor before Neil even steps out from behind the gate to lock it. It's unclear if this is Vulkov's gun or the gun that TP uses when the gate opens. It's a moot pont because either he wouldn't have time to load a bullet into a gun anyway.

Form an opportunity perspective, this theory relies on choppy time skipping editing, and Nolan intentionally not showing it to allow for all this theorizing we’re doing.

It's choppy sure. But how long do you think Ives was picking up that gun for?

But if that is Vulkov's gun. Then you have Ives, with motive and opportunity after the fact, as the possible loader of the inverted bullet.

[u/doloros_mccracken → u/Alive_Ice7937]

I agree that Ives taking Volkov’s gun with him and the inverted bullet loaded into it later also works.  This was my initial idea on how they did it.

It’s clunky because the bullet needs to be in there for longer as you go back to a turnstile without looking, then have an inverted person load it, or more complicated configurations.  I did an intense watch to track all the guns and empty holsters while they split up the algorithm.  There was no extra gun.

When I realized Neil could Jedi-force catch the gun from anywhere by un-throwing it, it trimmed off a lot of complications.  That’s why I like Neil over Ives.

I’m 99% sure that’s Ives’ gun.

Interestingly, Nolan does not show TP taking the gun from unconscious Ives holster.

TP runs in with Ives gun and I assume it jams, he then places it down on the ground.  When Ives comes through the gate he picks up the gun and checks the chamber.

To speculate, the gun must jam so there can be a fistfight (Tenet force) when Neil arrives and not a shootout where they all shoot each other and die.

Further (wild) speculation - Nolan may be showing picking up a gun and loading it as a clue.

[u/Alive_Ice7937 → u/doloros_mccracken]

TP runs in with Ives gun and I assume it jams, he then places it down on the ground.  When Ives comes through the gate he picks up the gun and checks the chamber.

The gun Ives picks up is pretty close to where Vulkov was when TP shot his gun arm. If you listen, (because we can't see), it sounds like TP throws his/Ives gun after it dry fires rather than placing it down.

The gun Ives picks up being Vulkov's makes sense in terms of how those two separate events are portrayed. (Vulkov dropping it versus TP potentially throwing it). If it's Vulkov's gun, then the inverted bullet theory is a lot more plausible imo. Neil simply doesn't have time or reason to do that. Ives, however, would have the time and ingenuity to figure it out and make it happen after the fact.

Heres how it might have happened. After the mission Ives checks the gun and notices the top bullet has a special marking on it. He realises it's inverted and that it was him who inverted it because this is a symbol he has developed for himself to do things like this. Ives takes the bullet and puts it in the collection basket of a specialised mini turnstile. He then gets a non inverted bullet of the same calibre, puts the special marking on the casing, then loads it into the turnstile. The inverted bullet flies from the basket up into the turnstile. The turnstile activates and both bullets disappear into the past from Ives perspective.

So the bullet's timeline is this

• picked up by Ives and marked.

-placed into the turnstile, inverted and dropped into the collection basket.

• picked up by Ives and put into Vulkov's gun clip. (Taken out of it from Ives's perspective.

• brought back to Stalsk 12 and down into the hole with Ives in Vulkov's gun.

• (crucially the gun is not fired when Ives aims it at TP and Vulkov)

-Finally it's shot into Neil's head by Vulkov using a bullet that was loaded after the fact with an inverted bullet. (Just like how Barabara removing the bullet from the clip in the lab is actually loading it from the bullet's perspective)

[u/doloros_mccracken → u/Alive_Ice7937]

This is very solid work, and it’s a proof for the ‘Ives took the gun with him to load the inverted bullet’ scenario.

I’ll recap my thought process because I got here in a very similar way you and the OP have:

1. I realized that Neil must have been shot with an inverted bullet because it solves 3 major problems:

A. Where is the bullet?  A forward bullet can’t be inside dead or alive inverted Neil’s head.

B.  How can a forward person shoot an inverted person, unless like Sator you grab them an hold them in place before and after, and have a reason to?

C. What reason is there for Sator and Vulkov to stop monologuing / executing the final step of their evil master plan to finish off TP in the seconds before success, other than sticking to Bond movie villain tropes?

1.  I then spun my wheels for a long time working through a mission to switch out Volkov’s gun on the chopper before Stalsk-12 with an inverted gun.

Hey - it’s plausible because Neil saw Volkov arrive on the chopper.  We could use this knowledge to go back and do a gun switch mission.

1. I catch up to where you and the OP are on Barb.

I was on a tangent thinking about first principles, and how difficult it would actually be for Barb and Tenet to set up the inverted bullet demonstration for TP.  That’s a whole pincer in itself!  It’s not just Bill and Ted’ing a box on inverted bullets to yourself in a desk drawer.

As I’m watching I see Barb take the clip from TP and take out the bullet and say ‘can you tell which one is inverted?’

Eureka!  A forward person would load an inverted bullet into a forward gun by removing it after they caught/shot it.  I just saw Barb load an inverted bullet!

That’s how Neil and Ives did it.  Ives  just has to get Volkov’s gun after TP disarmed him and then they could load the inverted bullet after the mission.

1.  I game out an almost identical scenario to the one you came up with, but much clunkier, with Ives removing the inverted bullet and putting it in a box of bullets and giving it to inverted Neil, and Neil inverting with the box of bullets and delivering it to Ives.

2.  Then I went frame by frame studying Ives and Neil, from Neil getting shot to when he gets in the chopper with Ives.  There is no extra gun. Volkov’s gun disappears and we do not see it again.  We only see Ives’s gun from TP putting it down, to pointed at TP then holstered.

3.  I concluded that Nolan intentionally DID NOT SHOW how Ives and Neil pulled the bullet switch to leave it to the viewers to figure out.

So i’d say you’re past step 4.  If this becomes a gnawing obsessive mystery to you, welcome to step 5.

The more you try to work through the Ives and Neil loading Volkov’s gun with and inverted bullet scenario, the more and more confident you’ll become that it was an Inverted bullet, it’s just a question of who, when, where and how.  What and why are settled.

[u/Alive_Ice7937 → u/doloros_mccracken]

There is no extra gun. Volkov’s gun disappears and we do not see it again.  We only see Ives’s gun from TP putting it down, to pointed at TP then holstered.

Vulkov drops his gun when TP shoots him. He's standing where Ives picks a gun up from the floor. Where are you seeing TP place his gun down? It sounds to me like he throws it rather than dropping. Either way we don't see where either gun went. So that could well be Vulkov's gun. That solves step 5. Ives brings the gun out with him and loads/unloads it with a bullet that he inverts later. He doesn't need to do anything else after that.

[u/doloros_mccracken → u/Alive_Ice7937]

I watched the guns very closely in this scene, and I tried to find evidence to disprove my inverted bullet theory after I couldn’t find any visual evidence in favour of it.

Here’s a summary of my tracking of the guns.  It’s clunky because I will also note Nolan does not show the guns and where they are switching clearly.  The guns are sometimes off screen.

2:09:56 - Volkov emerges from his hiding spot, surprising TP and Ives by shooting Ives in the helmet.  (Gun and shooting not shown, until Volkov walks out, pointing his pistol at TP.)

2:10:04 - TP hands his pistol to Volkov through the gate.

2:10:18 - TP hands his rifle through the gate, rifle not shown.

2:10:27 - As will be seen slightly clearer later - Volkov has a gun in a belt holster on his back left side.  You can just see it as he’s cranking open the shaft.

2:10:30 - Volkov tosses TP’s rifle down the shaft.  We see the rifle, but not the pistol.

2:11:23 - Volkov’s pistol is seen in his leg holster as he preps the capsule.

2:13:43 - “Shoot him in the head.”

2:13:46 - Ives rolls on ground, TP sees Ives’ pistol in his leg holster.

2:13:47 - Volkov walking towards TP, pistol aimed at TP’s head.

2:13:48 - Neil’s dead body starts writhing on ground.  We see Neil’s inverted pistol in his leg holster.

2:13:53 - Neil shot/un-shot in face.  Reanimated.

2:13:54 - Surprised Volkov looking at Neil and opening gate. He lowers his pistol.

2:13:58 - Volkov looking at gate opening (again).  Gun shot and flash.  His pistol is shot out of his hand.  He stumbles back and  his hand is empty.

There’s a sound effect here that could be the dropped gun hitting the grate, but it’s a metallic clang that could be the gate door opening.  Ambiguous.

2:14:00 - TP raises up a pistol as he comes through the gate, and there’s some smoke from the previous shot.

This could only be Ives gun.  TP grabbed it from Ives on the ground.  We saw TP give Volkov his pistol earlier.  It’s the only available gun.

2:14:00 Volkov takes a bullet to the back as TP shoots him again. (Right in the same spot where Volkov’s second gun is, lower left back, but you can’t see it here.)

2:14:01 - TP steps through the gate and holds up the gun to his face and looks at it.  There are some clicking sound effects like the gun isn’t shooting.

2:14:02 - TP steps forward after Volkov, turns and tosses the gun backwards.  You can even see it bounce a bit.

Volkov’s gun is not on the ground by the door, where it should be.

2:14:42 - Ives wakes up and stands. You can’t see his holster.

2:14:50 - Ives comes through the door, bends down and picks up a pistol.  There is no other gun on the ground in this shot, the only one where you would be able to see it.

Side note - Volkov’s rifle can be seen at the left of the frame when Neil goes around the door.  It’s in Volkov’s hiding spot.

2:14:52 - there’s a wierd cut as Neil exits.  Ives looks back and cocks the gun at the same time.

2:15:20 - Ives points the pistol at Volkov and TP fighting.  He stands up.

2:15:27 - Volkov nosedives into the shaft…and he seems to have a pistol in a belt holster on his back left side!?  It’s very hard to see this earlier.  You also catch a glimpse of his leg holster but it’s not clear enough for me to say it’s empty.

It seems like Volkov had two pistols, one of them TP’s after he handed it over to Volkov.

2:15:58 - Ives gun is back in his leg holster as he runs up to help TP pull back the capsule.

2:19:40 - Ives grabs the algorithm and pulls his gun on TP and Neil.

——-

Well after that exercise I’m less certain.

Neil could drop Volkov’s gun as the start of the gate closing move.  He drops it and it bounces right up into Volkov’s hand as TP shoots it.

But now I’m very doubtful as to where Neil picked up the gun in the first place.  Why not just carry it in with you?  But then how did you give it to yourself?

So maybe Neil pulled the switch on Ives gun?  TP puts down Ives gun - and here Neil switches them.  Now Ives carries out Volkov’s gun as if it’s his…but you’re still stuck with: where did Neil get the gun in the first place?

——

And now there’s another possibility - what if Volkov accidentally switched guns and was going to shoot TP with TPs gun?  Maybe the inverted bullet was in TPs gun?

[u/Alive_Ice7937 → u/doloros_mccracken]

That's a lot of potential guns in play. Scenarios involving Neil switching guns or bullets don't make sense to me because he simply doesn't have the time to do this.

Someone taking the gun Vulkov shot and loading in an inverted bullet after the fact is the most elegant solution imo. Whether that's the gun we see Ives pick up or a gun Ives or TP gather off screen when they are trapped and figuring out what to do is hard to say. But it certainly seems possible that one of them could have brought it with them

[u/BaconJets]

Only Neil was inverted, he ran in, opened the door and got in front of the bullet to protect TP.

[u/Medzomorak → u/BaconJets]

I don't think it works, because this way the bullet either passed through his head (so he was hit by an inverting bullet going back to the pistol from his perspective) or the bullet slowly appeared in his head like the stab wound on the protagonist.

The first version means the bullet would have hit TP as well. But it didn't.

The second version obviously does not work. There was another thread about inverted lethal wounds and the whole thing does not work really well.

This is the paradox of the wounds and damages appearing out of thin air, just think of the stab wound, the bullet holes and the never standing building block.

[u/Walters_Steenbeck → u/BaconJets]

I agree. If the bullet was inverted that killed Neil, wouldn’t it make the same sound it’s making when TP fires the gun at the range? It’s a normal gunshot. Volkov is just surprised that a corpse is suddenly alive and moving around. Bullet likely found an exit wound and landed somewhere, either the floor or into a wall, not hitting TP.

[u/BaconJets → u/Walters_Steenbeck]

All that matters is that in the block universe Tenet takes place in, Neil blocks a non inverted round by standing there the moment it gets fired.

[u/Alive_Ice7937]

What happened to Vulkov's gun? If TP and Ives somehow took it out with them, then the inverted bullet could have been loaded into it after the fact. If it went down with him in the hole then this isn't really possible.

[u/FrankFrankly711]

Fascinating theory! I always figured if the bullet was inverted, the gun had to be

[u/BjiZZle-MaNiZZle]

I still think the most elegant solution is that the uninverted bullet passed through inverted Neil (like Kat's wound), and lodged in his helmet (ie., bullets pov). It's a ballistic helmet. It's designed to stop rounds.

From Neil's inverted perspective, it would be lodged in his helmet until Volkov pulls the trigger, at which point it returns to Volkov's (uninverted) gun.

That makes the injury consistent with the rest of the wound mechanics and inverted physics presented in the test of the film.

[u/Alive_Ice7937 → u/BjiZZle-MaNiZZle]

From Neil's inverted perspective, it would be lodged in his helmet until Volkov pulls the trigger, at which point it returns to Volkov's (uninverted) gun.

If Neil found a bullet lodged in the helmet, he'd pick it out. It likely fell out as he reverse ran back up the tunnel.

[u/BjiZZle-MaNiZZle → u/Alive_Ice7937]

If Neil found a bullet lodged in the helmet, he'd pick it out. It likely fell out as he reverse ran back up the tunnel.

As long as the object itself maintains the world line that positions it in the helmet before the shot, then there are any number of possibilities to what happened to the bullet after striking the inside of the helmet.

Sure, falling out of the helmet is one possibility.

I would however argue that of all the characters in the film, the one that is least likely to remove the bullet upon finding it is Neil. He could appreciate that the bullet being in the helmet has already happened and more likely choose not to intervene with what happened to bring it there.

...Faith in the mechanics of the universe and all that.

Nonetheless, my argument is only that, for consistency in the mechanics of the film, the bullet should pass through Neil's head. Most likely ending up in the helmet. What happens after/before that is anyone's guess.

[u/Alive_Ice7937 → u/BjiZZle-MaNiZZle]

I would however argue that of all the characters in the film, the one that is least likely to remove the bullet upon finding it is Neil.

Absolutely.

Nonetheless, my argument is only that, for consistency in the mechanics of the film, the bullet should pass through Neil's head. Most likely ending up in the helmet. What happens after/before that is anyone's guess.

I'm starting to like the theory that it's an inverted bullet in a non inverted gun like the bullets in the lab. Ives picks up the gun when he goes through the gate, which means he has it after the mission. So he could load the inverted bullet into it because he's like Neil in terms of understanding of non linear cause and effect.

[u/BjiZZle-MaNiZZle → u/Alive_Ice7937]

the theory that it's an inverted bullet in a non inverted gun

Agreed. It's a fascinating theory. I must admit that I haven't given it enough thought though.

[u/Alive_Ice7937]

Ives picks up a gun from the floor when he enters the gate. If this is Vulkov's gun then you absolutely have someone with the means and the motive to load an inverted bullet into it. So you might be on to something here OP. Crucially, Ives doesn't shoot the gun.

[u/RobbyInEver]

This video by Welby (see his other Tenet ones too) explains it better with no narration, with 3D animation and in minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVdBLjNR5TU

[u/ruralmagnificence]

I love how four years on we’re still debating this