r/sysadmin • u/Political-Pineapple • 3d ago
What is reasonable compensation? Location Midwest Question
Asking for a friend. Midwest USA
Position start 2021 Help Desk starting salary $40K. A.S. Information Technology and Networking. 2022 B.S. Computer Information Systems emphasis in cybersecurity. Current salary $53K (plus on call bonuses $200 for the week and $30 for the first 15 minutes of a call and $10 thereafter). Acting Service Manager until they find replacement, no compensation.
Certifications: CNSP, CNVP, PenTest+, CSAP, CySA+, Security+, Network+
M.S. Cybersecurity and Information Assurance expected graduation date July 2026
Was offered a position as security admin for $60K. Should they take it?
Edit: I don’t know if this makes a difference, they work with an MSP.
Edit 2: I was wrong. They will be working directly with the head of technology and the two of them would be doing basically CISO duties as the company does not have a CISO.
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u/dwausa 3d ago
I’m a sys admin for a manufacturing company in Cleveland - I’m at $85k. I wouldn’t take $60k
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u/___FILE___ 2d ago
Also Cleveland, Mid size manufacturing company. Maybe 300 employees, became sysadmin in 2021 at 65k, currently at 77k.
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u/AV1978 Multi-Platform Consultant 3d ago
I started out in the Midwest. 38k for a sys admin role. The owner of the company told me I wasn’t worth paying more and would never make more at his company. I quit the next day and headed to Arizona. I got instantly hired at an msp for 100k. This was 2005.
Now I do consulting. This year was my biggest year yet at 384k.
Don’t let someone hold you back from what you feel you are worth. Certs mean nothing if you lack the experience
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u/223454 3d ago
I've worked for a couple of upper level managers that actually tried to gaslight all staff, not just IT, into thinking they were lucky to have jobs. The pay at those places was terrible, so they had trouble hiring. A few years later I was making more than at least one of those managers (I knew how much they made).
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u/AV1978 Multi-Platform Consultant 2d ago
This was def the vibe at this employer. He was also the town mayor. Very small town in Iowa. I spent 6 months dragging them out of the dark ages. He was appalled I’d asked for a raise to 55k which would have kept me there. In hindsight I’m glad he refused. It pushed me to finally move back to Arizona where I was born.
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u/MorallyDeplorable Electron Shephard 3d ago
Those wages are really low. That's fast food manager money, not skilled IT worker money.
I would set sights higher, personally.
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u/Ballaholic09 3d ago
Huh? Do you work in the Midwest? The entire time I was reading the post, I was furious that I support a CRITICAL 24/7 system with mandatory 100% uptime in a healthcare environment, for roughly the same pay as a help desk role… and I live in Midwest as well.
Zero OT pay, zero on-call pay. I’d leave my current position to take OP’s Help Desk role!
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u/goobernawt 3d ago
I'm in the Minneapolis/St Paul metro area, and that seems light to me. So, Midwest might not be a great descriptor for a location. I'd expect that wages in Mankato or Eau Claire would differ a fair amount from Minneapolis or Madison.
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u/whatchulookinatman 1d ago
Twin cities here. $115k senior sys admin in healthcare. 25 years experience.
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u/narcissisadmin 15h ago
You definitely need to shop around, that's trash. Our helpdesk within 30 minutes of KC starts out at $50k.
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u/MorallyDeplorable Electron Shephard 3d ago
I'm in the Denver area so not really mid-west but right on the edge of it.
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u/Ok-Pickleing 3d ago
ALWAYS look for and ask for more. Don’t be the sucker that tales the low pay job for any reason.
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u/iloveemmi Computer Janitor 2d ago
The selling point for me is a jump from service to security. The experience may be worth more than the money. I'm also curious if this person only has the three years' experience listed in this post. If so, that seems like quick work to me. Low pay for a security admin, but maybe it's a huge career and resume jump for a younger person. If so, 60k in the midwest? That's plenty to live on and the job will likely turn into six figure experience in a couple or a few years. Nothing wrong with that in my book as long as they keep moving.
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u/Political-Pineapple 3d ago
They are considering it because of the generous PTO and health insurance policies.
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u/SmiteHorn 3d ago
This does matter a good bit, but i have been able to negotiate extra PTO at every position I've been in.
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u/Political-Pineapple 3d ago
PTO is “unlimited”
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u/gnocchicotti 3d ago
"Unlimited" just means "we don't pay out PTO when we fire you."
Last company instituted that policy immediately after they fired the CFO and presumably learned about that expense.
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u/RiknYerBkn 2d ago
My company just updated their policy - unless the state requires it, no more PTO payouts even after termination.
So if you have PTO, use your PTO because saving it is never guaranteed.
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u/narcissisadmin 15h ago
Yep, I was getting about 6 weeks of PTO per year (which I took all of every year) and when they switched to "unlimited" I definitely felt like I was being eyeballed for using that much PTO. Did it anyway.
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u/bassgirl90 3d ago
Unlimited PTO is a ploy companies like to use. Then you get pentalized for using it because "your work isn't getting done fast enough." I'm not system admin, but this is general advice. I wouldn't trust that.
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u/Political-Pineapple 3d ago
Yes, they did get written up when their spouse had medical issues back in 2022 due to pregnancy related complications and was not able to drive to her appointments. They took “too much time off” but also that time was approved by their service manager.
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u/goobernawt 3d ago
Well, that's just horseshit and I'd seriously not want to work for that company. I've got "unlimited" PTO and haven't been hassled about time off. I've got a good working relationship with my manager. They know I get shit done, and I put in extra time when I need to. YMMV with that whole deal, but if you get dinged for taking off time THAT YOUR MANAGER APPROVED, that's some bad omen.
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u/KJatWork IT Manager 2d ago
Just FYI, let them know to read up on FMLA. It's likely that they would have qualified and protected under the Family and Medical Leave Act | U.S. Department of Labor.
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u/RefrigeratorNo3088 3d ago
I'll jump in and say that unlimited PTO is not an automatic red flag. My company has it and I've taken over a month plus holidays, sick days and no questions on if I need to just take a couple hours here or there. It's much easier to manage then trying to bank hours for a vacation and never carried enough of a balance to "cash out". But it's very company dependent.
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u/Political-Pineapple 3d ago
So far as long as it’s approved their company seems okay with it and they will let them know if it becomes too much. Though I do believe they are afraid of friend taking too much time for parental leave.
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u/dookieshorts 2d ago
It's not unlimited if at some point it becomes too much. At that point it's just an arbitrary limit.
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u/KJatWork IT Manager 2d ago
The move from tracked to unlimited PTO was for the company's benefit. While you may have burned through your PTO and never carried over much, MANY people don't use all their time, to the point that when companies started capping how much could be banked, it caused a lot of grief.
Companies that provide standard PTO must track that time and keep that pay "saved". They introduced caps first so that they didn't need to keep as much locked in the banks, but that led to many people taking a bunch of time off in December to blow through their PTO instead of losing. They then changed to unlimited PTO, which allowed them to put all that money back into their bank accounts as profits as they no longer need it available to payout and told the average worker they now would get "unlimited" PTO....as if.
This move was only to eliminate what they saw as wasted cash and make stockholders happy while calling it "Unlimited" so that the average Joe felt like they were getting a good deal out of it. That you see it as a perk, just proves the point.
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u/djgizmo Netadmin 3d ago
Depends on which part of Midwest. I wouldn’t even get out of bed for help desk for $60k in the Midwest in 2024.
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u/Political-Pineapple 3d ago
Michigan specifically.
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u/SmiteHorn 3d ago
For context I was making $55k in my second year at helpdesk. This was for an MSP in Ohio.
I am now a Systems Administrator making 85k in my 4th year.
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u/EViLTeW 3d ago
That's still not specific.
Chances are, $40k is too low, but the CoL (thus, salary expectations) are higher in Detroit, GR, Kalamazoo than they are in Gaylord or Munising.
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u/Political-Pineapple 3d ago
Living and working near downtown GR.
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u/djgizmo Netadmin 3d ago
In GR, I’d say $80k is a good starting point.
Always negotiate. The first question you should ask is “what is the approved pay range for this role?”
There answer should tell you if you’re within their ballpark. If they say they don’t have a specific pay range, your number should be whatever you want plus 20%+1k. This way you give them room to counter. So if you want 80k, you’d say 97k
You seem motivated as you have a lot of certs and working through your degrees quickly. Be careful about chasing the dragon and not learning how to ride the horse.
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u/RichardJimmy48 2d ago
The GR market has always seemed kinda odd to me. Salaries are lower there than other parts of the state while costs of living are higher, and there's always seemed to be an implied 'lmao go work in Lansing or Detroit then' attitude when you try to negotiate. Traverse City is the same way. They know the idea of moving or commuting is not something they really have to compete with. Making $53k on help desk in GR is not an unreasonable number.
That said, the line should have been drawn at 'acting Service Manager with no extra compensation'. That's the former Service Manager's boss's job to pick up the slack. If they want to add responsibilities to a subordinate's plate, it should come with compensation. Making $53k as an interim manager is absolutely a bad deal.
I know you said they have a bunch of certs and degrees and stuff, and a lot of people will probably disagree with this, but it's going to be very hard to ask for much more than $60k for a security role if they have no experience beyond help desk. They should definitely see what more they can get the offering company to put on the table, but throwing around numbers like $90k and hoping they 'settle on $80k' in the GR market for a security job with no direct security experience sounds like a recipe for getting ghosted. If they're making more money and getting experience on their resume in a security role, and not having to deal with unpaid managerial duties, anything else they negotiate is just icing on the cake and they can let the flowers arrange themselves. If in 2-3 years they want to make more money and their salary hasn't grown with their experience, they can find someone else and now they'll have direct security experience when they go to the negotiating table.
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u/IdidntrunIdidntrun 3d ago
Lol I'm getting fucked aren't I? $62k sysadmin, California
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u/TEverettReynolds 2d ago
Depends upon your:
- Skills
- Experience
- Confidence
- Ambition
- Location
- Soft Skills
- Likeability
- Ability to learn and adapt
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u/ihaxr 2d ago
How can you even afford to live off that? I have friends that are admins making 75k in the public sector...
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u/IdidntrunIdidntrun 2d ago
My gf makes the same amount and we rent a cheap 2-bed apartment. We split $1700/month down the middle. I am able to save about 30% of my gross income towards saving/retirement.
But we do want more space. We're looking at housing to rent but yeah it ain't cheap. And buying is probably not another option for another few years...unless one of our incomes goes up.
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u/Rakiel 3d ago
I would say this seems par for the course for GR having been in IT here for over a decade. Michigan is on average 25% lower than national average for income. West Michigan is around 10% less than the Michigan average. I thankfully found a good gig that pays well and is hybrid. I will have to get a fully remote job to get a pay raise when I am ready to leave because senior positions are paying 15-20% less than what I am earning now.
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u/xored-specialist 3d ago
This depends on where you live. $60k is fair in some markets. Take the job if it will help you. You should be changing IT jobs 2-3 years max. In this case, after a year, get to looking agaon.
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u/survivalmachine Sysadmin 3d ago
$60k is like, $8/hr above the average living wage in the Midwest.. As a highly skilled trade, we all really need to value ourselves higher than that.
Any competent admin with education and/or experience should easily command over $100k in the Midwest, but we’ve all somehow agreed that companies thinking that’s too much is ok, and devaluing skills is totally cool and normal.
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u/robvas Jack of All Trades 3d ago
Helpdesk $60k seems fine
Also in Michigan
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u/Political-Pineapple 3d ago
They were offered $60K for security admin. Started help desk at $40K and made it up to currently $53K. Is currently a Service Manager with no extra pay for the extra role.
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u/Kazeazen 3d ago
Looking to potentially move out to michigan, whats the IT job market like there?
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u/robvas Jack of All Trades 3d ago
Not that great. GM and Stellantis have laid a ton of people off recently.
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u/Kazeazen 2d ago
Thats not good! I was looking into state jobs and those seems to be centralized in Lansing, havent looked around too much in the non-gov sector yet
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u/pino_entre_palmeras Writes Bad Python and HCL 3d ago
My first job doing PC support in northern part of the Great Lakes region was at $41k in 2002, I think you’re friend is potentially highly underpaid.
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u/Political-Pineapple 3d ago
After many comments I can’t disagree, but comparing to Google for the area is pretty close, I’m seeing the average at $78K
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u/pino_entre_palmeras Writes Bad Python and HCL 3d ago
If I understood correctly their offer is $18k below the mean salary for the local region.
In my opinion that is a considerable amount of money. The devil is in the details as benefits can add a lot to total compensation, but my unscientific hunch is that it’s not that much generally speaking.
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u/JMWTech 3d ago
I'm in Michigan and while my position doesn't match up with yours well our level 1 sysadmin position starts in the $60k ish. Lots of benefits, and paid on call. Given that you are in GR you should be making more as well.
So that out of the way I'll say that in my opinion soft benefits are often over looked. Do you like where you work? Do you get other benefits that aren't monetary based? Can you find other jobs that will hire you?
Take a hard look at where you are and where you want to be and do the old pros and cons matrix. The older I get the less weight flat pay gets in my books and the soft benefits that allow me to enjoy life outside work end up weight the scales more.
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u/Political-Pineapple 3d ago
They are afraid to put their resume out as whenever they have, upper level management is on them the next day about it basically asking what’s wrong. They do get very good health, dental, and vision benefits. Paying about $630/month for their family before taxes. They said their spouses maternity care is covered in full with no copay and regular copay is $20 and deductible $6K. Retirement 50% match up to 3% of their paycheck.
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u/JMWTech 3d ago
That sounds like standard insurance to me, aside from the premium being higher than what our org and others like it cost. The retirement match sounds pretty standard as well.
I'm an old timer so my benefits don't match most, but I do know that you CAN* do better for base pay even matching those benefits. It just comes down to, is there a job near you that is available (likely), can you land it, is it worth giving up any soft benefits you have.
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u/Political-Pineapple 3d ago
I see so many people paying $1200+ for insurance in the area and having much higher copays as well, so assumed the insurance was great in comparison. I am not sure the “soft” benefits they have, not exactly sure what that means.
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u/TEverettReynolds 2d ago
Acting Service Manager until they find replacement, no compensation.
If they are getting Service Manager experience, then that's how they market themselves in the future.
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u/Political-Pineapple 2d ago
If somebody calls prior company for a recommendation and asks about the job title how would that work?
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u/TEverettReynolds 2d ago
Titles don't mean anything. Its your skills, experience, confidence, and your ability to support what you say you can do.
If OP's friend can support the claim as a temporary Service Manager by describing what they do that makes them the Service Manager, then that's all that matters.
I am not saying to lie; I am saying to highlight the role and skills being obtained as a Service Manager.
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u/No-Foundation-7239 Sysadmin 2d ago
I live in Kansas and work at an MSP.
6 years military IT experience, security+, azure fundamentals. Starting school here soon.
Started at 48k at the beginning of the year. JUST promoted to tier 2 receiving 59.5k.
I’d say 60 is a little low given your education/certifications.
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u/SwiftSloth1892 2d ago
I Manage a small it systems team. Our help desk starts at around 48 and sysadmin around 60 plus some for experience and skill level. Midwest is notorious for poor pay scales from what I've heard. I'm in wi but not any of the larger cities.
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u/funigui 2d ago
I'm in Kentucky at a medium sized business, I make 90k and I feel like I should be at 100k at least. I would not do this job for 60k, I have too much responsibility (after hours and highly specialized knowledge) to be struggling when I'm not at work burning my brain.
Looks elsewhere, I wouldn't start under 75k.
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u/bergkshire 3d ago
That's low even for a MSP in the Midwest. For comparison, I'm in MN working for an MSP. And I make more than that security admin offer as a help desk technician with 0 certs
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u/Hollow3ddd 3d ago
Location needs to me more specific. Still feel if they are by any larger city, they can prob get more, or a foot in the door and experience can be a strategy if they can be okay with that. Do they do internships? That will help a ton
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u/Political-Pineapple 3d ago
I responded specifically to location in another comment thread. GR, Michigan.
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u/AMDIntel 3d ago
I live in Wisconsin in a small city and I make way more than that. Even when I was just starting out as help desk I made about 55k and quickly jumped up.
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u/Lukage Sysadmin 3d ago
Its low, but that's an MSP, which notoriously underpay. That said, it seems "fine" (I am in St. Louis and worked at an MSP for some context), but looking at other places, they should expect to see higher salaries.
MSP jobs are also life-draining and generally kinda abusive.
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u/Political-Pineapple 3d ago
They are afraid to look elsewhere as they have lost positions in the past due to family health issues and needing to take “too much time” off for appointments every few weeks in addition to parental leave and illnesses. This company has been very accommodating for these situations and they are afraid they won’t find that elsewhere.
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u/porksandwich9113 Netadmin 2d ago edited 2d ago
Sounds super lowball. Sys/Net Admin at an ISP in northern MN, my base is around 68k. I pull in an additional 6k base for on call time, plus the actual time I need to clock in for while on call which is at OT rate ($50/hr). And then I also get a phone stipend as well as internet / tv stipend.
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u/Political-Pineapple 2d ago
Due to position requirements they’re taking away the requirement for on call for this position due to the demand of the position, so it would basically just be 60. They have the option for on call if someone requests to drop their week. On call is $200 base plus $30 for first 15 minutes and $10 per thereafter. ~$60/hr if it takes an hour. They will likely still be taking some on call shifts.
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u/PurpleFlerpy 2d ago
Admin, or just another analyst lackey? 60k is par for the course for analysts in the Midwest, especially at that level of experience. If there's a team, go for it. If solo, nope.
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u/Political-Pineapple 2d ago
Security admin working directly under CISO on a centralized services team for a small-ish MSP. Less than 50 employees total. I think there are 42-48 employees.
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u/Newbosterone Here's a Nickel, go get yourself a real OS. 2d ago
Midwest covers a lot of ground. What city? What’s the local cost of living? Pay in Chicago or Cleveland is going to differ from Des Moines or Tulsa.
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u/Political-Pineapple 2d ago
I’ve answered this multiple times. Grand Rapids MI
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u/Newbosterone Here's a Nickel, go get yourself a real OS. 2d ago
Sorry, hadn’t read that far. So the COL is about average. That’s good because places with low COL factor that into salaries, and can be terrible if you don’t like the lifestyle (small town, rural, shitty inner city).
$60K-ish is reasonable. For me the deciding factors would be advancement opportunities, training and experience opportunities, and quality of life outside of work. For example if they have or want kids, how good are the schools? Do they mind lots of snow? In Michigan they measure it in feet (record 2013-2014 116 feet! Normal is 40-80 feet).
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u/Political-Pineapple 2d ago
They have 3 kids expecting their last soon. They’ve grown up in this area and plan to stay close by for family. The schools are pretty good! They’re near Rockford and Northview
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u/Lazy-Function-4709 2d ago
IT Technician, where I'm primarily end user stuff, some sysadmin stuff. $60k, local gov, rural Minnesota. Metro area always pays more to the tune of $20k more annually for similar roles, but then you are either commuting or living in the hellscape of suburbia.
Your friend is getting lowballed.
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u/TheCerulean 2d ago
I work for an MSP in metro Detroit (I'm hell desk). I'm the youngest least experienced technician with an BS in Computer Engineering. I make 42k. The highest paid tech makes 56k.
My service manager makes 75k. So 60 seems low to me.
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u/Political-Pineapple 2d ago
As help desk currently they’re making 53, so that’s on par with yours. $60K is going up to security admin on central services. In GR.
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u/Healthy-Poetry6415 2d ago
Midwest and been over 6 figures for the past 10 plus years. But I been in the field a long time.
For 60k you can talk to my voicemail
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u/Political-Pineapple 2d ago
What about a guy just starting out?
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u/Healthy-Poetry6415 2d ago
In this area. 60-65k is a decent pay. Not the best. Certainly not the worst.
If he lacks experience and wants to take a shot at it I wouldnt say no. Just set the expectations that is the most you might make at that role and utilize it for what it might be. A lot of learning and the step to the next option if this one doesnt work out
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u/flummox1234 2d ago
Midwest doesn't really say much tbh, i.e. Chicago, Madison, Minneapolis, etc are going to be higher pay and higher COL compared to rural Midwest. Iowa could be BFE or IIRC google's data center (can't remember exactly where it is or if I'm thinking of MO). Best bet is look at comparable job offers in the same area.
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u/General_Ad_4729 2d ago
Look up the average salary for your position and area. Glass door and a few other sites will be a good. I will tell you from my experience that MSPs will always sit on the lower to average pay for your area but they are good experience. It's also one of the hardest IT jobs unless they have an amazing KnowledgeBase for each customer.
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u/Optimal_Leg638 2d ago
If you are willing to work in the Kansas area:
Search for keywords like security, analyst etc.
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u/iloveemmi Computer Janitor 2d ago
MSP gigs are tough and usually don't pay well. But they get you experience like nothing else. It's a 7k raise and a new spectrum of experience. You didn't mention if it's the same employer and you don't mention if this person has experience prior to this job or if they like their current job.
Strictly compensation: I think 60k is fine especially adjusting for location if they've only been in the game for three years after school. $60k is very low for a security admin BUT if this person has only three years, what a fast track to a lucrative and interesting field. And hell, if they want to see if security is their jam, what a way to find out without even having to go back to school or land certs. Taking a job isn't a big commitment if you stash some 'fuck you' money and progress in your field. The value add may be the experience and the type of work more than the money. They may find in a year or two that this experience lands them six figures.
I've taken jobs where I was underpaid because it was different or more responsibilities and systems I was interested in. These steps always turned out to be winners in my career even if the job was a dud. "Well that sucked but now I get VDI" is a totally acceptable outcome to a job. Just don't stagnate. Take what you can from any job, give it your all, and move on when you aren't learning, aren't happy, or see something obviously better.
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u/Political-Pineapple 2d ago
I misunderstood what was explained to me. They will be working directly with the head of technology and completing CISO duties as the company has no CISO. Yes it’s with the same company. Prior experience is in sales and retention and insurance. They have many certs (I think more than I listed? Like A+ and a few others) and are part way through a masters program.
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u/Political-Pineapple 2d ago
They can’t set aside FU Money as they are paychecks to paycheck. Once he gets the raise the job will finally cover all bills minus gas and groceries. So they will still have to rely a lot on driving for DoorDash for those things. They have a family of 5 almost 6.
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u/iloveemmi Computer Janitor 2d ago
Wow, OK. That changes things. Do they have experience? Can't squeeze blood out of a turnup if you don't have the years under your belt, but with that many kids hopefully they've been around longer than I realized. If they have, yeah, IT can pay good money and that is very low for a security admin. If they're actually qualified to be a security admin they should hold out for more. If they're not, this may be the fastest way there even if it's a tough couple years.
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u/progenyofeniac Windows Admin, Netadmin 2d ago
I feel like experience is the missing item here. That’s low pay regardless, and I do think you could do better by hopping jobs, possibly into something remote in a higher cost of living area.
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u/Political-Pineapple 1d ago
They would be replacing a person who was fully remote from upstate New York. They quit suddenly due to pay and family responsibilities.
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u/DGC_David 2d ago
If it's your first gig, maybe. It will at least get you a residence while you market upwards. I would say that's pretty junk though from WI, absolutely junk for Milwaukee, WI.
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u/Political-Pineapple 1d ago
They’re on the other side by GR, Michigan.
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u/DGC_David 1d ago
I'm going to be honest, the first 3 yrs are miserable but it's just for the credentials after that it gets better and easier to get a new position for better pay.
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u/Recalcitrant-wino Sr. Sysadmin 1d ago
Check Glassdoor. Here in Portland, we hired a Tier 1 a couple years ago. She asked for 53. My boss (CIO) said "I don't think I can pay her that little." Pretty sure she came in at about 60.
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u/dookieshorts 2d ago
If you can't buy a basic three-bedroom house in a pretty low crime neighborhood with two and a half years of your salary, then you're not making enough.
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u/Political-Pineapple 1d ago
This family rents a 3 bedroom subsidized townhome with max rent allowed being 60% of take home pay. Not sure the exact amount they pay.
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u/dookieshorts 1d ago
God, I'm old. I remember being taught the general rule of thumb being that your house and bills should be about 30% of your take-home. That was only 25 years ago.
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u/NothingToSeeHere4389 3d ago
Located in MN, when I was a Sysadmin for a local city, my pay grade started around $75k and tapped out at $96k. Private sector will get you more.