r/science • u/mvea Professor | Medicine • 3d ago
New research finds a worse pattern than the Dark Triad. The Social Narcissist (23%) was just as selfish and manipulative as the All-Round Malevolent (16%). They disguise their self-interest when self-reporting, or when stakes are low, yet cheat and act competitively when there is an opportunity. Psychology
https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/fulfillment-at-any-age/202412/could-anything-be-worse-than-the-dark-triad3.3k
u/Secret_Cow_5053 3d ago
D&D alignments just getting scientific descriptions now
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u/Penthesilean 3d ago
In threads like this, just point out that D&D alignments are more useful and accurate than Myers-Briggs typing, and watch people’s heads explode in “uhm akshewally” rage.
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u/Bakoro 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think nearly any partitioning system with enough parameters which are based on observable characteristics or values, is likely to end up with some amount of accuracy or validity, or whatever we want to call it.
You could probably select a half dozen completely random aspects about people and find there are a bunch of correlations which look meaningful.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's a good partitioning, but it might look good superficially.I think about astrology, and the magical thinking that the position of the stars when people are born affects them. I don't believe that, but I do have to imagine that the idea didn't spring up from nothing, that maybe people saw patterns and tried to figure out a system.
What makes sense to me, is that in a low tech agrarian society, there's going to be a lot of local homogeneous conditions, where people are mostly eating and drinking the same things. The seasons are going to dictate a lot of your life. The gestation of a baby is going to be affected by the mother's nutrition, exercise, alcohol consumption, etc. So, a town full of babies gestating in the winter are going to be noticably different from babies gestating in the spring and summer. People come up with a wrong attribution and the system gets increasingly complex, trying to achieve better predictions. (IIRC, historically, astrology came first and applying it to people came later, but the end is the same).
Then technology and society changes enough that the underlying conditions no longer hold: good nutrition is available all year long, women are generally drinking less during pregnancy, etc, so now there is close to zero accuracy where previously it might have been a decent predictor.I don't want to get into a whole thing about astrology specifically, I just think what I outlined is a good example of how you could potentially have a system that looks like it works, but is really just capturing a moment or is slightly overlapping some other real underlying pattern.
D&D alignment has a kind of timeless legitimacy because it's basically just asking if people are more likely to strongly adhere to a a system of rules or not, and if they value personal interests or group interests more. When you look at it that way, it cuts through a lot of BS, it's just that the granularity is fairly poor.
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u/RedTuna777 3d ago
This is actually the basis of Random Forest more or less. You split up a group into a bunch of categories based on different properties. Then as you run through the algorithm, you can find the more or less optimal way to grade things. The interesting thing is it doesn't really matter where you start.
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u/videogamesarewack 3d ago
Tbh astrology, along with the personality types stuff, and I suppose dnd alignments work really well as a tool for self reflection.
All the stuff about a Taurus sun being xyz, a INTNF (I'm making up letters idk it) being xyz trait, is whatever but it provides people a framework to engage in to evaluate their own life. We can even go as far to say the clairvoyance offered in astrological predictions is less about literally reading the future but allowing us opportunities to consider some scenarios in the future for how we may react.
I've also seen some convincing stuff from a YouTube called localscriptman about the enneagram for writing characters in screenplays. Which makes sense since basically every classification of traits from personality types to various mental health diagnoses are massive over simplification that strip nuance the second they're applied, but characters in a story are just simplification and not actual people.
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u/FavoritesBot 3d ago
As a Capricorn, I agree
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u/Steinrikur 2d ago
We Geminis don't believe in astrology, so this whole thing is preposterous to us
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u/Winjin 3d ago
Makes me think of how Slavic peasants used to decide whether earth was warm enough to start planting first spring crops.
In noon, dad would go out into the field, and quite literally take off his pants and sit on the ground. If it freezes your ass, it's still too cold to plant. If it's comfortable, the season has started.
But this will only make sense in the northern regions with freeze cycles, where it can be too cold to plant in the spring, and even if the sun seems warm, the soil is literally frozen inside, the water is still ice underneath the top layer.
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u/APeacefulWarrior 2d ago
In noon, dad would go out into the field, and quite literally take off his pants and sit on the ground. If it freezes your ass, it's still too cold to plant. If it's comfortable, the season has started.
Getting increasingly off topic, but I have to imagine this inspired some amazing local folk sayings about farmers' asses.
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u/rawbleedingbait 3d ago
Seems way more likely people just applied whatever they could to stars, because they didn't understand them, and the part about prediction we already know, you just throw everything out there and one line might ring true, and they'll forget the rest. It's a grift that works because the vast majority of the population is honestly still ignorant about what's up there.
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u/f0xns0x 3d ago
Dude, are you me?! I've been saying this about astrology forever. My only addition would be regarding the rapidity of early childhood development over the different homogeneous conditions you have already mentioned. Is your kid just 'waking up' to socialization in the middle of winter when there are fewer chances to facilitate such discovery? They may wind up a bit more shy.
Who knows exactly, but kids change quickly and the conditions that surround them may or may not be conducive to any particular type of learning.
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u/NovaAsterix 3d ago
I've also thought about systems like Astrology not being nonsense since ancient humans were more advanced and probably tracked a bunch of stuff lost to time. For Astrology, my hunch is that seasonal patterns actually do have an impact on babies especially in places with seasons. I imagine being born in winter vs summer actually does matter when you can't go outside in winter easily or food is more plentiful when nursing, etc. Things like Chinese zodiac might be longer term social cycles but who knows. It's all super fascinating so I appreciate your post!
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u/Djaii 3d ago edited 3d ago
I’m doing some side work for a company where the technical lead internally starts conversations with statements like “I’m an INTJ, you’re going to have to take that into account, as we work together” and I’m really struggling to take that guy seriously now. He has a ton of other red flags too, poor communication, doesn’t (or can’t) document anything.
When he brought it up again that he’s ’the architect’ Myers-Briggs type, I quickly asked him: “tell me what characteristics of that type you most closely identify with? You keep mentioning it, can you explain to me about how you fit into it?”
He quickly changed the topic and then emailed me a link to a web page about how M-B testing works. He had no idea, probably picked that “type” from a list because he liked the label. He’s in his 50’s and is clown shoes big-time.
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u/Reead 3d ago
Man, it's one thing to bring up your Myers-Briggs type as a little conversation starter or bit of flavor, but to actually present it like a hard character trait is just so silly. It's only a few steps above crystal healing and horoscopes for me.
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u/Djaii 3d ago
Definitely agree.
The person self selects by answering the questions how they imagine themselves to be.
It would MAYBE be useful if the questions were answered by everyone who knows you well enough BUT you. That way you get typed as to how you are in the world, not some fantasy about yourself.
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u/homogenousmoss 2d ago
I never researched the subject but I always thought that a serious questionaire on personality or mental health would account for people lying or misrepresenting. I mean.. because its a given that people will lie or embellish.
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u/Arthur-Wintersight 3d ago
The four traits all follow a bell curve distribution.
This can be incredibly useful if you're trying to find sales people who are, say, more extroverted than 50% of the population, but it's not some hard diagnostic tool.
Myers Briggs is moderately useful if you understand its limits, but it can border on astrology if you start reading too much into it.
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u/helendestroy 3d ago
love telling people about the wildly racist novel briggs-myers wrote. turns out people who like to classify people, well...
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u/ahazred8vt 3d ago
"Give Me Death" (1934) by Isabel Briggs Myers. 'A Southern family commits suicide one by one after learning they may have "Negro blood".'
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u/Vio_ 3d ago
I might as well believe in daily horoscopes more than Myers- Briggs
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u/SuperStoneman 3d ago
Myers- Briggs is accurate, it tells you how you answered. How useful that is is up to you.
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u/TheBirminghamBear 3d ago
Social Narcissist is just a Rogue. Always looking for that attack of opportunity
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u/Mr_JohnUsername 3d ago
With a noble or guild artisan background, freakin social-climbers.
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u/Mateorabi 3d ago
Sounds like something an INTJ would say.
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u/Penthesilean 2d ago
When I took it twice in my 20’s, it said I was a 50/50 INFP/INFJ split. I was royally emotionally fucked over by what I thought was my close and most trusted friend, who through mastercraft Machiavellian means kicked me out of our friend group of 16 years. He was a 50/50 INTJ/INTP split.
I’m in my 50’s now and educated, and recognize that it’s just Astrology for people who think they’re smarter than people who believe in Astrology.
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u/cat_prophecy 3d ago
No you just don't understand! I am the super rare special Myers Briggs type that makes me super unique and special and intelligent!
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u/Outrageous_pinecone 3d ago
Myers-Briggs typing,
Is not a scientific tool. It was not created by scientists for scientific purposes, it was created to help women find appropriate jobs, that's it.
No one uses it for research, it's just a product being to companies for a lot of money. Universities do teach this test because of its colloquial wide spread use, but it is NOT a tool to use for research or therapy and it will not illustrate anything relevant about you as a person, since all of its results are cute and flattering, just like teen magazine quizzes are.
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u/Zoesan 3d ago
Myers-Briggs has no scientific backing.
The only good psychometric test for this is big 5
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u/TheBigSmoke420 2d ago
Meyer-briggs is jungian hokum, squeezed through a tube of horoscoping, and packaged as an evidence-based spectrum.
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u/BlindTreeFrog 3d ago
I just wish that they hadn't done it as "Good - Evil" and "Lawful - Chaotic". Labeling it as "Community vs Self" and "By the Rules vs Outside the rules" is more accurate (though wordy) and easier to actually understand (for classification and role play). Pretty Sure AD&D 2nd Ed even described it that way.
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u/glassgost 3d ago
I don't know, it just sounds like sub catagories of asshole.
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u/Mr_JohnUsername 3d ago
But don’t you know! Ragebait is in! Things that make us feel bad get more engagement so we need to come up with different types of asshole so that we can have even more dialogue on how a person is bad and deserves to be pelted with tomatoes!
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u/Photomancer 3d ago
So a 5w6 Elven Wizard, a Social Narcissist Dwarven Warlock, a Taurus Half-Orc Paladin, and an ESFP Halfling Rogue walk into a bar
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u/enolaholmes23 3d ago
I know right? Also every youtube relationship guru has a video on these personality types. It shouldn't take scientists this long to catch up to the average "I hate my ex" post.
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u/MetaCardboard 3d ago
Abuse is an open secret among police officers. Many officers claim that it’s the result of a stressful job. But in my research and in talking to domestic violence researchers, it becomes clear that stress doesn’t really cause abuse. There are lots of stressful jobs. Paramedics and surgeons and fire fighters don’t have this kind of problem.
The more honest officers will tell you that policing is a job about control — controlling people and controlling chaotic environments. It attracts people with that mentality and that desire. Not all police officers are the same, but the more authoritarian police officers are the more likely they are to be violent at home.
https://www.fatherly.com/love-money/police-brutality-and-domestic-violence/
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u/FredFnord 3d ago
The sheriff of the SF county police department was caught beating his spouse. The main result was that all SF police cars were outfitted with “Domestic violence is bad” bumper stickers.
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u/Hot_Government1628 3d ago
Jfc, when your husband is the sheriff, who can you call for help?
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u/wh4tth3huh 3d ago
The state police, or maybe the Secretary of States' police. Not a lot of options and well, they're all probably union "brothers" anyway. I don't think the spouses of abusive police really have anyone to turn to.
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u/ToMorrowsEnd 3d ago
This. A lot of people forget the "police union" is more of a gang affiliation than a labor union.
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u/McDerface 3d ago
I looked this up because curious, the sheriff can be arrested for probable cause just like any other individual.
The issue would then likely be brought up with the District Attorney and could reach the California Department of Justice.
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u/ToMorrowsEnd 3d ago
It's well documented that the police departments seek out that type of sociopath for the departments. It used to be though of it attracted them but in the past 10 years they discovered that it's actually a part of the selection process.
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u/Responsible_Jump_669 3d ago
I’ve worked under many physicians and psychiatrists who were absolute psychopaths. Cruelty was the point.
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u/SaintValkyrie 2d ago
Yes exactly. The book Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft is wrriten by someone who extensively worked with abusers and said the exact same thing.
Here's some of the myths about abuse:
- He was abused as a child.
- His previous partner hurt him.
- He abuses those he loves the most.
- He holds in his feelings too much.
- He has an aggressive personality.
- He loses control.
- He is too angry.
- He is mentally ill.
- He hates women.
- He is afraid of intimacy and abandonment.
- He has low self-esteem.
- His boss mistreats him.
- He has poor skills in communication and conflict resolution.
- There are as many abusive women as abusive men.
- His abusiveness is as bad for him as for his partner.
- He is a victim of racism.
- He abuses alcohol or drugs.
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u/ten_tons_of_light 2d ago edited 2d ago
It would be nice if books like this would stop implying abusers must be male. It makes it hard for the minority of men being abused by women because that DOES happen and implying otherwise makes it that much harder for them to escape the situation and/or ensure their children end up with the more stable parent
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u/SaintValkyrie 2d ago
This book was written for women who were being abused, and women are the majority of abuse victims so it's talking about the increased risk for women too.
He does state in his book about how it can apply to men as well and men can be abuse victims too.
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u/Phemto_B 3d ago
And one has to wonder how many of them go into a profession that gives them control of vulnerable people, like psychology.
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u/Standard_Piglet 3d ago
This part. The morality armor of some positions seems like it would draw certain groups of personality type in.
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u/ChemicalEscapes 3d ago
I'm in one of those fields, and it does. Too many of my peers and leaders are like this. It was a crushing realization, to say the least.
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u/NihilismRacoon 3d ago
Teachers and religious leaders are obvious ones to point to
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u/Standard_Piglet 2d ago
Nurses and police officers are what I witnessed in high school career development class. The very last people you would ever consider for those roles wanted those jobs and it wasn’t hard to see why. The bullies/bullied and the drug dealers all gravitated toward those jobs.
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u/APeacefulWarrior 2d ago
Don't forget surgeons being infamous for god complexes. I've even seen it argued that surgeons need to be somewhere on the sociopathic spectrum so they aren't emotionally overwhelmed by their job.
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u/somepersonsomewhere 3d ago
Medical vs. therapeutic models. I'd preferably seek a therapist who's undertaken some training in person centered or other humanistic approaches (may consider relational psychodynamic or existentialism). However, I'm a therapist, and many therapists - while wanting to help, and often do - fall into medicalised thinking e.g. condition A is treated with interventions B and C = fixed, particularly psychologists who practice therapy (no slight on psychologists meant). Good therapy fundamentally puts the relationship first, protecting client autonomy but fostering trust, then works in A and B to "treat the condition" when the relationship is ready.
Problem is, most state, work place, or insurance funded therapies are modelled on short term, brief therapy. CBT is great for this, it's been adapted to see "conditions" as treatable by therapeutic protocols/prescriptions within limited sessions (real CBT isn't quite to this extreme in this example), it can become rather directive from the therapeutic practitioner rather than a sense of collaboration between client and therapist. Works for some, doesn't work for all. I am CBT trained so I speak from experience.
Personally, I would seek a therapist that is realationally focused. Tricky because that is more often a sense you gain after engaging in sessions, regardless of their therapeutic modality or public profile (if you're privileged enough to pay privately and choose, that it). So don't be scared to change therapist; but also ask yourself what it is that isn't working and how's that informs what you're looking for.
This is an overly simplified view but relevant to your comment, I hope.
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u/AGayBanjo 3d ago
I have borderline personality disorder among other things and my private practice therapist of 3 years, who I see weekly, espouses these beliefs. This is after 7 years of treatment at a community mental health clinic where therapy is performed by psychiatrist residents. The residents were fine, but they went for CBT/hackneyed DBT for my treatment. Their approach kept me alive. My current therapist's approach has helped me thrive.
We're at the point where the end of the necessity for weekly sessions and perhaps psychotherapy in general is on the horizon (a couple years, maybe). I didn't think that would ever be an option.
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u/AFewStupidQuestions 3d ago edited 2d ago
I don't think your comment is necessarily wrong, but I don't think you have direct experience with the post-secondary education system surrounding therapy.
Everything you state is very much taught in schools. Self-empowerment, multiple approaches, active listening, social and cultural awareness, these are the very basic lessons taught regarding building therapeutic relationships.
Schools delve deep into not only the current theories and approaches, but also the history, the rationales and the potential complications and pitfalls. There are a tonne of very educated, experienced and knowledgeable people who have worked their entire lives to build upon the work of generations.
Edit: I was rude.
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u/BigBallsMcGirk 3d ago
This sounds a lot like the "I don't need meds because nothing is wrong with me" type of nonsense.
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u/mercury_pointer 3d ago
Or law enforcement.
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u/Undeity 3d ago
Or medicine. So many narcissists in medicine...
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u/Glasseshalf 3d ago
My father is an abusive narcissist and a well-respected (now retired) physician.
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u/Penthesilean 3d ago
Academics.
My PhD program disillusioned me and left me figuratively shell-shocked.
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u/TheLastHayley 3d ago
Yuuup, academia is an absolute magnet for narcissists IMO. My parents were narcissistic and abusive as all get out, so seeing these dynamics in academia has made me all "hell naw what have I done to myself" haha.
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u/escalat0r 2d ago
Yep, it's an extremely competitive environment that literally gives you the opportunity to exercise vast power with very little chance of being fired.
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u/Jbirdlex924 3d ago
Or activism
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u/gwendolynrutherford 3d ago
Yes to this- altruistic narcissism is the mode du jour at my workplace and it’s a real befuddler
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u/Sawses 3d ago
The best and worst people I've ever known have been deeply involved in activism. It's both a way to do incredible good and to have the ultimate moral high ground.
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u/carnivorousdrew 3d ago
Honestly the only "activists" I have met who were not virtue signaling narcisist manipulators were the ones in cancer research fundraising in the streets and the ones working in animal shelters on the weekends, you know, the ones doing actually something.
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u/TheOnlyLiam 3d ago
You're absolutely right, worked in a care facility for people with mental disorders, the staff were far worse.
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u/annewmoon 3d ago
I work in a dementia ward and I’ve seen a lot of staff that should NOT be allowed near vulnerable people who cannot protect themselves or even tell anyone what happens to them. But these people are often prized employees, they are in general rarely sick and somehow seem immune to the stresses and the emotional toll of the job..
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u/carnivorousdrew 3d ago
The reality show 90 day fiancee had a couple of mental health nurses on the show and they were both not only abusive but completely insane and impulsive.
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u/Saw-Sage_GoBlin 2d ago
I wonder if the job is less stressful for them because they get off so much on the power.
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u/annewmoon 2d ago
Yeah probably but also, I’ve noticed that they just tune out all the things that really strain me. For example soothing someone who has constant anxiety or asks questions like “why am I here? Where is my mom? Is my husband not here? Do you know where I live?”. When someone is like that you can’t just say “They are dead.” It would upset them greatly. You need to listen and give empathy and then either divert their attention or see if you can remind them gently, depends on the person and situation how you handle it so they can calm down/not be thrown into grief about losing someone dear to them as if it happened today. Well I have several colleagues who will take their time to listen and explain, but it can be quite draining if this happens multiple times a day. I also have colleagues who just ignore all this and act as if they don’t hear the person speaking at all.
Another example.. a patient who was palliative fell out of his bed. He was in a very weakened state and sprawled on the floor, there were body fluids on the floor etc. My colleague and I went to get the emergency lift. We needed to get the lift closer to get him up and so my colleague very matter of factly and not very gently used her foot to shift his arm away to be able to reach. I was like.. that’s a person. Not a length of cable on the floor that’s in your way. A human being. It made me feel horrible but my colleague didn’t see anything wrong with it at all. It was like she was just treating him as an object and it was one of the last days of his life. It reveals a certain callousness and an attitude.. things don’t get to them.
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u/PigeonsArePopular 3d ago
An old joke about mental health facilities, the employees are the ones with name tags
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u/graffiti81 3d ago
If you can find a copy, Power in the Helping Professions by Adolf Guggenbuhl-Craig talks about how the power dynamic between therapists and patients can develop abusive patterns even when the therapist isn't seeking them.
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u/PurityOfEssenceBrah 3d ago
Yep, my ex was this and she's a social worker / therapist. Loves being around vulnerable people, only dates vulnerable people.
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u/cranberries87 3d ago
I became friends with a social worker/therapist. We were casual friends/acquaintances for about 3-4 years, but began interacting and talking more around year 5. She had truly been wearing a mask the entire time we were casual friends. I was absolutely horrified when her mask slipped and she began showing her true values, beliefs, morals and behavior. She was reckless and completely lacked any empathy. She also started trying to gaslight me and make statements to annoy me/get a reaction. Then seemed to attempt to become love bomby when I started distancing myself. I was absolutely shocked and didn’t see that coming at all. I feel really bad for her patients.
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u/PurityOfEssenceBrah 3d ago
Yep that sounds accurate. Her friends had no idea who she was. Her ex's all do. They all saw her mask slip like I did. She would disappear at parties and do cocaine and start fights with me. Her Instagram tagline was something like "chaos deserves an edge". A 43 year old woman stuck in a teenagers mind. The gaslighting was absurd and it was really hard to pick up on at first. My ex would randomly pick fights to exert control. Like I'm come in the door and she would immediately say "what's wrong, I know something is wrong with you". It was crazy. Personality disorders are no joke.
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u/cranberries87 3d ago
It’s super hard to shake disordered people too. I’m really trying to figure out how to spot people like this sooner, cut ties quicker, and the best method to cut them off if this happens again in the future.
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u/PurityOfEssenceBrah 3d ago
If you set up boundaries and they cross them that's a good sign to cut ties. whenever I got sick she wouldn't be there for me, told me she didn't like being around me when I was sick, she had zero empathy. I was incredibly confused the entire relationship, that's also a good sign it's not healthy.
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u/JustAnotherYouth 3d ago
Setting boundaries / cutting ties may help but my wife has literally been stalked by her mother.
Even when you set hard boundaries it can be hard to get certain people out of your life…
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u/TalonKAringham 3d ago
And now you’ve just outed yourself as a vulnerable person to the WHOLE internet. These people are probably frothing at the mouth preparing to descending upon you like a pack of wolves.
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u/PurityOfEssenceBrah 3d ago
That's actually a pretty insightful perspective, but I've been doing a ton of work on WHY I allowed it to happen, like years of working with my psychologist on this and I am not really worried about it these days. I'm in a very different place now than when I met her and am pretty good at putting up boundaries. When I met her I was suicidal and depressed and didn't know I had PTSD from my service, it's a different story now. But you're absolutely right, they have a nose for finding people that struggle with self worth and boundaries.
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u/Smart-Idea867 3d ago
Thats pretty manipulative of you, outing a vulnerable person like that.
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u/Geminii27 3d ago
Or at least someone who was vulnerable to that kind of thing once upon a time. Not that this would stop the attempts.
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u/mycofirsttime 3d ago
A lot. You can find them at the heads of clinics especially. Charming, can be great to whoever is paying them- horrible to the people they pay. Bullying. Manipulation. It sucks because there’s a lot of really nice people in psych, some of the most empathetic or at least accepting of the human condition.
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u/gingerbeardlubber 3d ago edited 3d ago
I know people like this who are/were a Paramedic, Palliative Nurse, Paediatric Nurse, School Principal, Swimming Teacher, and working in child protection. These people are volunteers in First Aid, youth recreation, and youth justice.
They put themselves in positions where vulnerable people in need don’t have a choice but to interact with them.
It’s sick, and sickening.
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u/Federal_Remote_435 3d ago
You reminded me when I was in nursing school, there was a guy there who seemed.....off. He got visibly pissed if he got corrected (even by the teachers) and I remember him saying a couple of things regarding patients that seemed extremely unempathetic to say the least. I can't remember exactly what he said, but it was obvious he liked having control in every situation, even in hypothetical ones.
On our second or third day we did the usual group introductions. My alarm bells rang when he said he had tried (but not succeeded) to enter the police force AND the defence force, so he was going to try nursing (my thoughts were he failed the psych evaluations cos he was of average weight and height). Near the end of that semester we were asked what field of nursing we wanted to enter. He immediately answered "Mental health/Psychiatric nursing"......jfc. I was genuinely afraid of what he could do if he managed to get that position.
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u/Responsible_Jump_669 2d ago
I have worked under the most evil human being I’ve ever met. He was a psychiatrist and the clinical director of a hospital for the severely ill.
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u/MistakesAreHuman 3d ago
This seems to muddy the waters when identifying someone who may have narcissistic personality traits but doesn't fully fit the diagnostic criteria for NPD. Would anyone with NPD naturally become a Social Narcissist given they are well-socialized?
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u/Repossessedbatmobile 3d ago
It actually seems to fit the profile of a covert narcissist. There are 5 types of narcissists. Overt, covert, communal, antagonistic, and malignant. More people are familiar with overt and malignant narcissists because their behavior is more obvious and less hidden, so it's often easier to recognize. But covert narcissists are just as dark. Covert narcissists do everything to hide their narcissistic traits while in public, and only do their worst behaviors behind closed doors. Their victims are usually their own family, or other vulnerable individuals. But because they make sure to act like saints in public and hide their abuse behind closed doors, people often don't believe the victims.
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u/Ka-Shunky 3d ago
Is there a test to find out if you're a narcissist?
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u/fraggedaboutit 3d ago
Narcissists don't need to take a test to tell them what they already know: that they're not narcissists. If someone ever complained about your behavior and you thought "That's fair" you're almost certainly not one.
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u/ExcellentQuality69 2d ago
Narcissists are willing to take blame in order to make them seem more personable or to throw people off on their true intentions. They will just make sure to remember the slight to themselves and “get revenge” later on
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u/lesath_lestrange 2d ago edited 2d ago
https://www.livescience.com/47197-narcissists-admit-to-it.html
My understanding is that narcissists will regularly admit to being narcissistic.
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u/meermaalsgeprobeerd 3d ago
Sure, you wondering if you are makes it unlikely that you actually are cause narcissists are not suppos d to be able te see the faults in their own personality.
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u/RussellBufalino 3d ago
I thought that was psychopaths specifically? I could be wrong or it could be both
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u/enolaholmes23 3d ago
Yet another nail in the coffin of the whole dsm system. People are wildly diverse and not easily categorized. Everything exists on a spectrum and in several dimensions. Trying to put us all into boxes has done a lot more harm than good.
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u/pacocase 3d ago
Yes. See my post history. I was with one for 3 years. Super social and accomplished like me, but totally heartless and egocentric. I've since learned that you can't fix people. I tried so hard with her.
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u/Protean_Protein 3d ago
This is tangential, but I’m genuinely curious, especially given the way you described yourself: why did you think that you should be trying to fix another adult human being? That’s a trait that seems pretty common too, but one I genuinely I don’t understand.
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u/MDPROBIFE 3d ago
Taught by caregivers that it was their job, they were rewarded by "helping" the care giver
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u/Rufus_TBarleysheath 3d ago
"If I just help this person get better, then the whole relationship will be perfect!"
I mean, that's why I stayed with my abuser.
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u/vardarac 3d ago edited 3d ago
I can be a way overly forgiving and generous person.
I like to think the good I see in people is worth fighting for. It's very hard to give up on such others that I've become very close to and invested in, even when if I really stand back I can see that the problems are intractable.
Perhaps some of us have had deep flaws that we too struggled with and overcame them, and want to believe the same for the people we care about.
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u/Protean_Protein 3d ago
I can understand this impulse to want to help people. I guess what I have trouble with is that at a certain level there’s something both infantilizing and a bit infantile about how its done—a sort of paternalism run amok, but with a naive sense of self-importance attached to it. Like: “If only they do what I say, they’d be so much better off!” But lacking the understanding that simply being told the right thing to do or even being offered help, or trying to force it, or whatever, isn’t enough when people are behaving the way they are due to longstanding patterns of behaviour or deep personality traits or things learned from their upbringing, or trauma, etc.
The exception is, of course, something like cognitive behavioural therapy, which can be successful in changing/fixing certain aspects of people’s behaviour. But that takes a professional and a lot of concerted time and effort.
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u/mvea Professor | Medicine 3d ago
I’ve linked to the news release in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the peer reviewed journal article:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10551-024-05835-4
Abstract
This paper adopts a person-centered approach to explore how personality traits from the HEXACO and Dark Triad cluster into profiles. We examine how these emergent profiles correlate with behavioral deviance and prosociality. Three studies (total N = 792) reveal five qualitatively different latent profiles which we label: ‘emotional dysregulated’, ‘dark social recluse’, ‘all-round malevolent’, ‘socially considerate’, and ‘social narcissist’. These profiles were differentially related to self-reported deviance and prosociality, as well as behavioral expressions of deviance. In particular, the ‘all-round malevolent’ openly expressed their deviance in both word and deed. However, although the ‘social narcissist’ disguised their deviance when self-reporting, they cheated as much as the ‘all-round malevolent’ in behavioral tasks when they believed themselves unaccountable. These findings suggest that certain combinations of HEXACO and Dark Triad traits may be more pernicious than Dark Triad alone.
From the linked article:
KEY POINTS
- The traits that make up the dark triad may not truly reflect the most malevolent patterns in personality.
- New research shows that by looking at personality profiles, an even worse malevolent pattern emerges.
- As dark as the dark triad can be, it’s probably most important to avoid the social chameleons.
Social narcissist: self-centered, entitled, and attention-seeking as well as being highly sociable; low in workplace deviance and moderate in levels of prosocial behaviors (23 percent)
All-round malevolent: very sociable, manipulative, and self-serving; highest levels of workplace deviance and lowest levels of prosocial behaviors (16 percent)
Although, as predicted, the all-round malevolent participants behaved in ways consistent with their profile, surprising findings emerged related to the behavior of the social narcissists. Despite sharing characteristics with the socially considerate, this narcissistic profile was associated with behaviors that were just as selfish and manipulative as those of the malevolent. They are, as the authors note, “inclined to disguise their self-interested orientation when self-reporting, or when the stakes are low, yet [do] cheat and act competitively when there is an opportunity.” In short, such an individual is “something of a self-interested social chameleon.”
As you can see from the findings, it’s not the blatantly malevolent you need to steer clear of. That person at work who undercuts you at every opportunity is someone you can easily identify once you’ve been burned. Strangely, it may be the people who seem nice that can present the real danger. Because the social narcissist shares traits with the socially cooperative, though, what can tip you off?
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u/TheTresStateArea 3d ago
I think this coincides with what we have all heard at one point or another. That there are people who play nice until they have something to gain by sabotaging you. So long as you never have something substantial that they want they are good people, to you.
It's so commonly known it's featured in media constantly. Does this not fit Regina George?
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u/enolaholmes23 3d ago
I think I heard this on r/ psychopaths - they will work with you so long as your goals are alligned. But as soon as they are not aligned, they will turn on you. Just like every single character in Gossip Girl. You're friends until it benefits you to betray that friend.
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u/Level3Kobold 3d ago
inclined to disguise their self-interested orientation when self-reporting, or when the stakes are low, yet [do] cheat and act competitively when there is an opportunity
Maybe I'm overly cynical, but "this type of person is altruistic and generous until the stakes are high enough" seems like it describes almost everyone.
Most people would return a lost wallet. I don't think most people would return a lost winning lotto ticket.
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u/Sweet_Concept2211 3d ago
What distinguishes the social narcissist from the everyday individual acting out of self-interest is the extremes they are willing to go to and lows they are prepared to sink to in order to satisfy their sense of entitlement - as long as they feel confident they can get away with it.
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u/agitatedprisoner 3d ago
My problem with this framing is how easily it gets flipped when the inmates are running the asylum. Power might always lie but it's easier to get away with lies predicated on the subjective or normative particularly in a sound-bite culture that celebrates greed.
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u/moconahaftmere 3d ago edited 3d ago
That's really not what this study is saying, though. Keep in mind these people are already narcissists, whereas most people are not.
The study is suggesting that "social narcissists" put on a facade of being kind, generous, and altruistic, but will lie and cheat for their own benefit so long as they believe they won't get caught.
Most people don't cheat in monopoly. A "social narcissist" might swipe some money from the bank when the other players have their backs turned.
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u/enolaholmes23 3d ago
My ex used to play mmorpgs a lot. At first he used bots to cheat and get leveled up etc. Then eventually he had enough bots going that he wasn't even playing the game, the bots played for him.
I asked him what's the point, if you don't even get to play? How is that fun? It turns out he didn't care about the game at all, just the idea of getting ahead. Sometimes ambition gets so intense, people forget what they're even fighting for.
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u/Level3Kobold 3d ago
Except the study says that they WON'T cheat when "the stakes are low". Implying that they wouldn't cheat in monopoly.
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u/moconahaftmere 3d ago
The study assessed their tendency to cheat by asking them to roll a die privately and then report the result, with 1-5 gaining points and 6 awarding no points. They did this several times.
Social narcissists and all-round malevolents were the only two profiles found to have cheated (as those two groups reported "5" twice as often as would be expected given random dice rolls).
Is rolling a die higher stakes than monopoly?
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u/ilikepizza30 3d ago
I would note that they probably used MTurk studies, and those studies often offer higher rewards for more points, so there's a monetary (albeit small) incentive to report a higher die roll.
Most people don't play Monopoly for real money.
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u/Level3Kobold 3d ago
Then I don't understand why the study says that they refrain from cheating when the stakes are low.
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u/Zhadow13 3d ago
It says "disguise their self interest when the stakes are low" . Not sure what to make of it tho.
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u/enolaholmes23 3d ago
I think that means it's not worth it to risk exposing their con for a minor reward. But for a big reward, they will risk doing something that could expose them as a jerk.
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u/enolaholmes23 3d ago
I think it's a numbers game if the reward is small, like 2/10, and the punishment for being caught is 5/10, then they won't cheat because it's not worth it. But if the punishment is 2/10 and the reward is 5/10 they will. In this study there is no punishment, so no reason not to cheat. In social situations, there can be punishments, so it makes less sense to cheat for small stuff.
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u/Doct0rStabby 3d ago edited 3d ago
One of the things so many of us enjoy about competitive games is their ability to make us feel as though the stakes are high even though they are not. Presumably narcissists get caught up in these feelings too.
Edit - When I play 1v1 Starcraft 2 against other humans, I sometimes get the shakes and even experience physical pain from body tension, headaches and exhaustion from the stress of longer or more intense sessions. This is not uncommon from what I've gathered being somewhat active in the community. I'm decent but far from pro level.. there's never anything on the line besides ego and the joy of winning. The more competitive the game, the person, and/or the group who is playing, the higher these artificial stakes can end up seeming in the moment.
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u/magvadis 3d ago
The monopoly example is a bad example given the game is rigged, not meant to be won, and is pure chance. Cheating is superfluous given it's just a game thats entire point is showing that money makes money and once you get ahead it is nearly impossible not to snowball.
May as well say looking at someone's feet during thumbs up seven up makes you a narcissist. The stakes are so low they are through the floor.
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u/New-Distribution6033 3d ago
That's what makes Monopoly a great example! It IS "rigged, not meant to be won, and is pure chance." And everyone knows it's not worth cheating in. But the narcissist still feels entitled to win, to be superior, and is still willing to cheat - if they think they can get away with it - even at silly games like Monopoly.
But, you know, I do agree with you that there might be a better game to use: solitaire. Which is basically what the die roll game in the study simulated.
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u/Doct0rStabby 3d ago
There is a distinction between not returning a lost ticket vs getting you drunk and stealing your ticket while using manipulation to get you to blame someone else close to you. Something along those lines.
The vast majority of people wouldn't return a lost ticket to a stranger
Most people would seriously consider not returning a ticket to an acquaintance
Some people would seriously consider not returning a lost ticket to a close friend or loved one
Very few people would actively steal a ticket from a stranger
Fewer still would actively steal a ticket from a close friend or loved one
Only the worst type of people would make plans to hurt or perhaps even kill a close friend or loved one for their ticket
It's a spectrum, and the social narcisists and a few other personality types might be willing to do all of the above, depending on circumstances.
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u/Shutaru_Kanshinji 3d ago
I seem to recall reading that the so-called "Dark Triad" was not well-based in science.
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u/phlurker 3d ago
Do these terms exist because they aren't in DSM-V? Why the big leap to using these terms specifically?
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u/AlfredAskew 3d ago
It’s a whole thing. A whole, completely unscientific thing.
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u/secretaliasname 2d ago
Is the DSM really scientific? Not saying it’s not clinically useful but it doesn’t seem very scientific.
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u/AlfredAskew 2d ago
Also very fair! On the scale of scientific to not, I’d put the “narcissism” thing that’s going on pretty low, and the DSM… somewhat less low, but still quite suspect.
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u/MoobyTheGoldenSock 3d ago
This article was wholly focused with how people act at work. Businesses love using pseudoscientific pop psychology to predict how workers will behave.
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u/quasar_1618 3d ago
I kind of hate all this Dark Triad nonsense. It just feels like pseudoscience, and I think its primary use is so that people can feel justified sticking labels on people they don’t like.
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u/enolaholmes23 3d ago
It definitely sounds like they're sensationalizing psychology to get views. For most people these things don't actually apply. And for the few people that they do apply, the negative labels are not helping them get the therapy they need. It just adds to stigma, which is often worst among psychologists, who should be the ones offering support and treatment.
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u/Albus_Unbounded 3d ago
Did you that psychology has such a bad replication crisis that only 3 out of 10 studies have any degree of replicability? I used to study psychology and almost minored in it I dropped it when I found out just how much of it is bunk.
P-Hacking is so prevalent professors casually admit to it and train their students to do the same. What that means is that a lot of psych research is just collecting random data without a hypothesis or aim, throwing it in a PCA and reporting anything statistically significant results with a made up analysis and aim. This leads to a lot of nonsensical studies citing and feeding off each other. The methodologies I've read not just from random published studies but respected works are obviously bunk especially around narcissism and dark triad stuff. One study defined narcissism as being abusive and being abusive as narcissim, another defined narcissism as "wanting to own luxury goods" and considered all abuse victims to be narcissists undeserving of love. A published and widely referenced piece of literature literally cited one of the author's lady-friend's personal anecdotes as a source.
A lot psychology is just psuedoscience using Jamovi as a shield. I'm sure there's some good and useful research being done and it's a better model than demonic possession but so much of it is sensationalist nonsense.→ More replies2
u/jolhar 3d ago
Sometimes people are just total assholes, but a clinician can’t label someone as an asshole, so they need formal diagnoses for the most common asshole traits in order to be able to diagnose and treat the behaviours. Narcissistic, sociopathic, anti-social, oppositional defiance, conduct disorder, etc etc. At the end of the day they’re all just asshole behaviour that’s been medicalised.
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u/magvadis 3d ago edited 3d ago
I feel like the more information I obtain about narcissism studies and taxonomy, the more I feel like the whole thing is becoming a witch-hunt and a bit too vague to be anything but a means to categorize people in your life into boxes that allow you to write them off or demonize them.
It's very much, imo, getting closer and closer to your classic horoscope or Meyers Briggs in its levels of categorization carrying too many vague ways to classify someone that overlap far too much with people outside of the label. Like sorry but you could read yourself or anyone you know into most Narcissism labels at this point through taking one element and spinning their actions into all being self-serving actions from a point of view that doesn't consider the other...which is an incredibly difficult judgement to actually make given so many ulterior pressures that drive individual action.
Overall, I wish narcissism wasn't the word they used, as the general social ethos around the term is synonymous with demon at this point. As much as I agree that we need to figure it out. I feel like it's hitting the popular market in ways that is going to cause a lot of harm. Even if most of the people who will suffer from it are actually fitting and undiagnosed (especially those in power)
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u/JUYED-AWK-YACC 3d ago
It's a tool to judge people. Real science isn't concerned with "Dark Triad" BS.
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u/Mr_JohnUsername 3d ago
Yea, I’m kinda surprised this was posted here as it feels like an extension of a concept in psych/sociology that was already barely accepted as “science”. Usually r/science is SUPER strict about this sort of thing
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u/morguerunner 2d ago
I’ve noticed that the sub will leave up these kinds of BS studies if it’s getting enough engagement.
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u/CautiousOccasion7948 3d ago
I agree with this, what would the word be other than narcissist?
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u/Mr_JohnUsername 3d ago
Maybe selfish or self-absorbed or overly-self-prioritizing person. Or “neglector” maybe?
Considering narcissicism is a very serious and almost dangerous disorder, I also feel that by throwing it around we are devaluing its actual meaning - almost like saying you love each person you know or see - the word “love” starts to lose the intensity of its meaning to those who you say it to.
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u/codeByNumber 3d ago
Read the article and I’m not sure what is the difference between a social narcissist and what has been commonly referred to as a “covert narcissist”. Is it the same thing?
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u/enolaholmes23 3d ago
Yes. It's exactly the same thing but described more poorly than the average yputube video.
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u/DriftMantis 3d ago
Social media influencers and youtube grifters being socially narcissistic anyone? Unfortunately we all live in societies that reward that kind of mediocre BS.
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u/Orvan-Rabbit 3d ago
Maybe even reddit mods.
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u/Mr_JohnUsername 3d ago
That’s a certainty, though they usually lurk in the shadows and make no money from their tyranny.
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u/alien_from_Europa 3d ago
Power mods do in fact make money; just not directly from reddit corporate. There was a whole scandal about it. If you don't pay people for what is tedious labor then they're going to find other sketchy ways to get compensated. Reddit set up their communities so they would save tens of millions of dollars not paying content reviewers. It also means the people attracted to those positions end up seeing everyone through the eyes of a hammer.
Sites like YouTube actually have to pay people and their abuse is far less regulated with stronger impacts. Most people have their YouTube account connected to every facet of their online existence and then YouTubers have their accounts as their actual job. A ban from YouTube includes your Google account. I reported a very antisemitic comment on YouTube and then the YouTube mod instead put the warning on me with no link to the comment they marked as "bullying". There was also no way to challenge the warning. Mods on reddit have their power limited to their individual subreddits and a ban from reddit by admins won't have any significant impact on the rest of your Internet use unlike with Google.
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u/nuleaph 3d ago
I was a reviewer on this paper. It's so methodologically flawed it blows my mind that it was published.
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u/Rufus_TBarleysheath 3d ago
I don't believe that you were. Can you provide any evidence?
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u/Mr_JohnUsername 3d ago
Seconding this request. But will ask that in the event the claim of being a reviewer is true, how the hell did this get published despite having a reviewer who condemns its methodology?
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u/SynbiosVyse 3d ago
Rejected paper and then authors submitted to a different journal and got different reviewers.
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u/fishtankm29 3d ago
Can we get a trading card set of these? Could be helpful for remembering the order and severity.
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u/AngryBeaver- 3d ago
Ok we get it. Psychologists want to find a way in which everyone is a narcissist and dark
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u/fraggedaboutit 3d ago
Kind of like dentists, if they check your teeth and everything is ok, they don't get a Mercedes this year. There is strong pressure to come up with problems to be fixed.
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u/chibinoi 3d ago
I’m fairly certain a high ranking employee at my last place would present strongly in the social narcissist category. Do not miss working with that person, nope.
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u/zorionora 3d ago
Would you mind elaborating? I feel like someone in my husband's family has certain tendencies, but I just don't have enough experience in this area.
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u/gingerbeardlubber 3d ago
There’s a website called “Out of the Fog” that I found very helpful when trying to understand difficult people in my life with these traits.
(I’ve read the subreddit rules and linking to this appears to be okay… I’m happy to remove this link if I’m incorrect on this.)
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u/_RrezZ_ 3d ago
As someone who is most likely a "social chameleon" I find it kind of weird that they portray it in a negative light.
I automatically tend to pick up mannerisms, speech patterns and the tendencies/behaviours of those I'm around and essentially try to blend in with them. It's more of a self-defence mechanism than anything else imo.
However that is completely different from how they use the term in this article as if a social chameleon is a narcissist who tries to blend in with other groups of people and will try to benefit under certain conditions.
I feel like it would've been better to clarify that there are multiple types of social chameleons, like me who do it automatically as a sort of self-defence mechanism to fit in with the crowd. Then the other group who do it intentionally for ulterior motives or for some type of personal benefit.
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u/yogalalala 3d ago
The social chameleon affect can also come from having been abused or bullied for exhibiting your "natural" behaviour which is considered odd for some reason. You learn how you are supposed to behave in different social situations to avoid further abuse.
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