r/pics Jun 01 '15

Thomas Massie, Justin Amash, and Rand Paul leave the Senate after successfully blocking the Patriot Act renewal

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u/Your_Post_Is_Metal Jun 01 '15

Not if all you cynical motherfuckers get out and VOTE! Vote in your primaries, vote for congress, vote for everything you're allowed to vote for! Your voice is loudest at the polls.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

[deleted]

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u/Chel_of_the_sea Jun 01 '15

We voted in the guys who passed it. And some of the guys who just smacked it down. Vote in the next Wyden in your state.

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u/shoxballin11 Jun 01 '15

Yep. This is not a democracy, this is a republic. People forget this too often.

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u/ThaBomb Jun 01 '15

Not like it has to be one or the other, the terms have some overlap. The United States is both a representative democracy, because nearly all citizens have equal votes for representatives, and a republic.

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u/lennon1230 Jun 01 '15

Republic and democracy are not mutually exclusive terms.

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u/XKDVD_on_Twitch Jun 01 '15

It's a democratic republic, meaning that we choose the people who decide on laws. When they say democracy I'm sure they're referencing a true democracy, where we would all be voting on each individual law rather than leaving it up to the representatives.

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u/EternalPhi Jun 01 '15

I guarantee you that if it were in fact a direct democracy, things would probably be fucked up even worse. Do you actually want to place trust in the bible-belt to vote on laws? At least in a representative democracy, the votes are cast by people with an education. I'll take corruption over stupidity, thanks.

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u/XKDVD_on_Twitch Jun 01 '15

Definitely wasn't advocating for a true democracy, not sure where you got that idea from. There is no way it would work on this large scale, and politics are a lot more complicated now than in ancient Greece. I was simply explaining the different terms.

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u/EternalPhi Jun 01 '15

Definitely wasn't suggesting you were advocating for a true democracy, not sure where you got that idea from. :P

In all seriousness though, I was just elaborating on how ridiculous such a system would be. My question was rhetorical.

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u/XKDVD_on_Twitch Jun 01 '15

Sorry, it just came off as a little aggressive to me. But yeah I agree, true democracy would be terrible. People have issues getting to presidential elections every four years, imagine trying to get them to vote every month. Plus nobody would understand the bills, lobbying would hit a whole new scale, just terrible all throughout.

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u/lennon1230 Jun 01 '15

They're confusing the terms though when they correct somebody by saying the US doesn't have a democracy, that's all I was pointing out.

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u/Fronesis Jun 01 '15

This isn't as astute as you might think it is. Of course we're both; the US is a democratic republic.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '15

Constitutional republic.

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u/katzmandoo Jun 01 '15

My allegiance is to the Republic!

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

Technically it's an oligarchy, but on paper yes it's a republic.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

Dont confuse the poor reditors... They are a fragile bunch ...reditors believe in almost everything Rand Paul believes in but since he is a R they won't vote for him. They will vote for Hillary. Got to love the reddit generation.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

The scary part is more people care about a R or D more than they care about what the candidate actually stands for

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '15

I think it's funny that Iraq refused to follow our political model. I'd much rather have many political parties like England or Israel and at the end they need to form a coalition.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '15

Look at history and the political parties used to change as the times changed. In the last hundred years people have gotten complacent with what they're used to they don't demand anything from their representatives anymore. Our Andrew Jackson who said fuck the federal bank and that was the last time America owned is own money, the day America died was when he left office.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '15

So true !

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u/Hyronious Jun 02 '15

As someone not from the US I had to google him, but if the wikipedia page on him is accurate...what are you on about?

100% pro life, same sex marriage offends him (though he wants states to decide individually, not a federal ban), no legalization of recreational drugs, opposes all forms of gun control, wants to raise the defense budget and thinks that states should not require parents to vaccinate their children.

The only things I can see that align with the average redditors views are that medical marijuana should be legal and removing mandatory minimums...

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

you know, until they don't do what they said they would do, and then we can always not vote for them the next time but by then it's too late because whatever they voted for that we didn't agree with is already written into law

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u/AquitaineHungerForce Jun 01 '15

From what I saw on C-SPAN it looks like New Mexico has done exactly that with Martin Heinrich.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

Or, you know, Rand Paul, who's running for president.

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u/Chel_of_the_sea Jun 01 '15

Rand's good on this issue. Not exactly waving my pom-poms about him on essentially any other. He's still a socially conservative Christian who'll do stuff like support anti-vaxxers.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

He doesn't want the government to mandate vaccinations. He's "supporting" anti-vaxxers by not forcing potentially harmful medical procedures on their children.

Not all vaccinations are safe, nor are they all unsafe. I'd rather leave it up to the parents, too.

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u/Chel_of_the_sea Jun 01 '15

Did you actually read the link? He's spreading crap about them causing autism and such.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15 edited Jun 01 '15

No, he's not. He doesn't claim that vaccines cause anything, only that they may. Here's what is true:

  • Not all vaccines are the same. While some are no doubt safe, they are not all inherently safe.

  • If the government is allowed to force vaccination, there is a chance that they could be harming people against their will.

  • Rand Paul believes that it's immoral to force vaccination upon people. What if the government wanted to mandate circumcision?

  • Legally mandating vaccination would make it much easier for lawmakers to force many other procedures and medications.

  • Rand vaccinates.

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u/Chel_of_the_sea Jun 01 '15

He doesn't claim that vaccines cause anything

"I've heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines," sounds pretty goddamn causative to me.

Rand Paul believes that it's immoral to force vaccination upon people. What if the government wanted to mandate circumcision?

Not the same thing. The government has a legitimate and compelling interest in public health as an extension of its basic function to safeguard the safety of its public. I don't think anyone would seriously take issue with quarantining someone who has smallpox against their will, for example. Vaccinations are essentially the same thing. Unvaccinated individuals are a threat to the public, not just to themselves.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

If that sounds causative to you, you're part of the problem. He's clearly stating a correlation, which, while it does not indicate cause, is enough to leave it up to individuals. If he thought vaccines caused mental disorders, he wouldn't vaccinate himself.

In the case of a serious emergency, mandatory vaccination might be called for, like martial law. I wouldn't want either to be common practice.

America would have lower disease rates if everyone vaccinated. In fact, I've argued that point before on Reddit. We could also ban alcohol, cigarettes, and soda. You have to weigh individual rights against possible benefits.

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u/throwaweight7 Jun 01 '15

The problem with that is, if the security apparatus wants a law passed they can just blackmail the legislature. Generally speaking people who can't be blackmailed don't go into politics.

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u/Chel_of_the_sea Jun 01 '15

This pessimism boggles me. You're in a thread about a victory, however small, for civil liberties going "Nope, we can never win".

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

[deleted]

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u/Chel_of_the_sea Jun 01 '15

The media influences the vote. But we can, and do, beat that influence sometimes.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

The media control the vote.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

I know, I enriched your life with that comment. I expected no less.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '15

It was not smacked down. We were given the appearance that it was.

It is Mr. or Ms. Supernaive?

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

Well I was too young to vote at the time, and the logic of "they won't come after me, because I don't do anything THAT bad" made sense to me then, at age 11.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

It also made sense to the majority of America. Politicians were doing what we asked for. We also asked for the TSA. Now, some of that is because we were emotionally manipulated to want those things, but the blame still falls on us. If you were older at that time, chances are you would have fallen for the same reasoning.

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u/SomebodyReasonable Jun 01 '15

While it's doubtful that Bush 43 actually won in 2000, many, many Americans certainly consciously voted for a moron. Many also didn't vote at all, and if they had joined in, it would have been much more difficult to perpetrate a fraud using Florida alone. Then Bush was convincingly re-elected in 2004, even taking instances of voter disenfranchisement into consideration.

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u/GuruMeditationError Jun 01 '15

Even Al Gore probably would have signed the Patriot Act initially.

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u/SomebodyReasonable Jun 01 '15 edited Jun 01 '15

I'm not sure about that.

LA Times - Gore Urges Repeal of Patriot Act - Nov 10 2003

Edit: also, I'm not sure 9/11 would have happened at all, because counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke wouldn't have been sidelined the way he was by the Bush Administration, until they clamored for him to come back and lead from the PEOC on 9/11. Richard Clarke would have quite possibly got the warning and acted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzP9YJpBubk

^^ He'll tell you himself.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

That's part of the problem. We don't vote on acts. We vote on people. And those people vote FOR US for at least the next 4 years.

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u/[deleted] Jun 02 '15

Remember when we just voted for the people that filibustered that shit? Stop being such a cynical fuck and do your part. Your vote counts.

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u/MCMXChris Jun 02 '15

And who are you?

Comrade question?

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u/thatgamerguy Jun 02 '15

Remember when you didn't vote when we asked you to come in on a tuesday to a midterm election because it wasn't a big enough deal?

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u/herecomesthemaybes Jun 01 '15

A lot of people have been gerrymandered out of having enough say to make a difference. Voting may not be enough, it may take a redistribution of the population and voting before real change could ever take place.

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u/runningbro Jun 01 '15

Yeah which is why voting in the state elections is important, as they have the ability to change the districts after every census. Also if you're in a gerrymandered district, there's always the ability to try to find a candidate that better represents the whole district, and challenge the incumbent. Much more difficult, but not completely impossible, as we saw with Eric Cantor. This also works better in places with open primaries.

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u/Nahtanos Jun 02 '15

YES thank you

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u/old_po_blu_collar Jun 01 '15

but which multimillionaire do I choose?

is it to be a turd sandwich? or a giant douche?

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u/oldmanstan Jun 01 '15

Remember when we all voted for hope and change and then hope and change turned out to mean drone strikes and wiretapping? I remember. Fuck voting.

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u/thebizarrojerry Jun 01 '15

No, because you didn't vote for Democrats in the '10 primaries, the Democrats had no votes to accomplish anything after that. Obama cut the power of the patriot act by requiring fisa courts, a good first step in the right direction before the Democrats lost. And if you think the administration today is worse or just as bad as the Bush years then you are part of the problem.

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u/oldmanstan Jun 02 '15

Wait, how many Democrats are anti-PATRIOT act? How many are in favor of a sane Israel policy? How many have called Snowden anything but a traitor? Not many. The Democrats lost in 2010 because they were pathetic, they couldn't even manage to pass a decent healthcare bill (Obamacare is better than nothing, but sorry if I have trouble getting excited about "better than nothing" policies). Until the Democrats stop trying to win by acting like Republicans they can fuck themselves.

And sure, Obama is better than Bush, but Bush was better than a lot of other arbitrary people who might have become president, did you get super stoked about him because of that? Obama is just another center-right Democrat who spends half his time doing the GOP's work for them and the other half making excuses about why he can't do any better.

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u/thebizarrojerry Jun 02 '15

The Israeli lobby? Oh great, goodbye Stormfront

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u/oldmanstan Jun 02 '15

Your attitude that Israel is beyond legitimate criticism clearly identifies you as a mindless mainstream partisan. I mentioned a "sane Israel policy", no conspiracies, no bigotry, and you jumped right into crazy-land. You didn't even respond to anything else I said, you saw a very mild criticism of Israel and immediately rejected the entire thing. This is another reason I won't associate with your shitty party.

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u/thebizarrojerry Jun 02 '15

My attitude is that Israel has nothing to do with the NSA and spying, the fact that you bring them up shows you want to push your obviously bigoted viewpoints on here. And it is a waste of my time because you have no actual argument based on reality. Goodbye.

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u/oldmanstan Jun 02 '15

We aren't talking about the NSA. I also brought up healthcare. We're talking about the efficacy of voting. My argument is that it is essentially pointless (at least voting for president and, in many states, congress). Not sure how an offhand comment about our Israel policy makes me "obviously bigoted". Are you saying that anyone who doesn't love our current policy is a bigot? Then it would seem Obama himself is a bigot since he doesn't appear to love everything about US-Israel relations either...

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u/thebizarrojerry Jun 02 '15

"we" are talking about the patriot act and the Democrats. Nothing to do with lobby groups. You just want to go do a Stormfront rant because all you know are sentences full of talking points. Stop filling up my inbox.

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u/oldmanstan Jun 02 '15

You said, essentially, that the Democrats losing in 2010 is the problem and that if people like me had voted for them they might have won and we would be in a much better place.

Then I asked why I should believe that when so many individual Democrats have the same views on so many issues as their fucked up Republican colleagues. One of the issues I mentioned was our Israel policy that, in my view, leads to a lot of violence in the world. It was literally an example in a list of three issues on which I see very little difference between the Dems and the GOP.

The Democrats win based on excitement (remember that Democrats generally outnumber Republicans, so it is all about voter turnout, at least in cases where gerrymandering hasn't fucked the districts completely). If people on the left, like me, aren't excited, they will tend to lose. They had a solid two years to impress people and convince us that they could actually live up to their (well, Obama's, maybe that's the problem, he made promises only Congress could keep) promise, and they didn't. Why didn't they just repeal the PATRIOT act while they had a majority? Did they even seriously try? Most of them actually SUPPORT the fucking thing! Who the hell am I supposed to vote for when every candidate on the ballot supports half the stuff I oppose and opposes half the stuff I support?! Just pick one randomly? I can just not vote and get the same outcome from that.

Also, I seriously don't get the whole "stormfront" thing. Really, I honestly don't understand where that came from. Do you even know my views on Israel? Apparently "stormfront" is a white supremacist thing, how do you get from, literally, "I think our Israel policy sucks" to white supremacy? That's a pretty amazing jump, really.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

man has a point

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u/whitediablo3137 Jun 01 '15

Voting needs better infrastructure to ensure this. Make it easily done as well as make it widely known when the polls are open.

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u/dasheekeejones Jun 01 '15

I voted. Bush got into office. My vote was not heard.

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u/UmarAlKhattab Jun 01 '15

Voting should be restrictive. That way you can have a more balanced political environment.

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u/metallurgespert Jun 01 '15

Agreed. At the local level your vote isn't amongst 300+ million. When I see the 90% reelection rates in Congress I die a little inside.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

2 minute explanation of why democracy doesn't work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgJ644LPL6g

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u/ubsr1024 Jun 01 '15

My voice is loudest at da club.

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u/squirtlepk Jun 02 '15

Okay but will it lift the suspension for Tom Brady?

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u/Suckydog Jun 02 '15

But the Patriot Act is only one thing to be concerned about in the next election, and to me and probably a lot of people, it's low on the importance scale.

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u/tf8252 Jun 02 '15

Most of them will vote for Neocons like Hillary

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u/bmarley1 Jun 02 '15

Who do live with the Keebler elves? This is real life we are discussing.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

Yeah those voting machines are Totally trustworthy.

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u/barrinmw Jun 01 '15

6 in 10 Americans want the government to spy on our phones.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '15

Are you allowed to vote in the Democratic AND Republican Primaries?

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u/noloudnoisesplease Jun 02 '15

But we need libertarians to vote, not the typical redditor, a young and lazy liberal.