r/neoliberal • u/UnscheduledCalendar • 2d ago
The Democrats’ Culture Denialism Opinion article (US)
https://www.liberalpatriot.com/p/the-democrats-culture-denialism[removed] — view removed post
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u/Particular-Court-619 2d ago
I mean this does ring true in part - the left likes to think that people vote on self-interest and class... But really they vote on values and identity.
Pretending that the categories are just rich vs. poor, when plenty of poor people feel more aligned with rich people who share their cultural values, is going to doom you - in the area of culture / vibes, culture wins out over 'class' because the latter is a less visceral, immediate group to belong to.
Now, I think you can win the culture war without throwing trans folks (etc.) under the bus - but you can't win it by pretending it's an economic war, or that that's how people naturally identify.
It's kinda downstream of all of the 'Dems think in abstracts and stats, people live in narrative and image' that hurts us far and wee.
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u/Warcrimes_Desu John Rawls 2d ago
Has this sub swung away from the post-election "economy vibes" theory?
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u/Particular-Court-619 2d ago
They're not in conflict. I'd say a lot of middle of the road, normie, voters have something like this narrative :
"The economy sucks, and it's because of a wave of illegal immigrants and the detached elites caring more about appeasing the delusions of the delusional and coddling criminals than fixing the damn country."
It's a damn appealing and good story if you're not into economics and don't have an intellectual inoculation against bigotry working for you.
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u/Just-Act-1859 2d ago
The pandemic response also contributed to inflation, and Dems generally wear it when spending is too high.
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u/MS_09_Dom 2d ago
Now, I think you can win the culture war without throwing trans folks (etc.) under the bus - but you can't win it by pretending it's an economic war, or that that's how people naturally identify.
The problem is that the only solution we see from all these "The trans issue is a losing one for the Dems, we have to address it somehow" takes amounts to "Support the sports bans and tell the trans community to suck it up, grow a thicker skin, and stop whining."
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u/Cassiebanipal 2d ago edited 2d ago
To preface this, I am trans, support puberty blockers, right to use restrooms, etc. so what I'm saying is by no means an attempt to condemn trans people to social backslide.
I think that the trans community has asked for way too much, way too quickly. Not just in terms of scientific study of transgenderism, but in general asks from wider society. We are kidding ourselves if we're unwilling to acknowledge that A. There's not really any evidence that Trans women perform comparably to cis women, and B. The basic reality is that trans women generally are taller, have larger hands, longer leg and arm spans, a wider and more sturdy skeletal structure, and that this advantage just cannot be wiped away. Ofc lots of cis women are outliers too, so I really just don't know, given the lack of widespread research - but so many people who support trans issues just very confidently declare there's no issue. I think it's fairly obvious when the science/statistic based democratic wing of politics suddenly ignores scientific truisms applied literally everywhere else, with sample sizing, lack of evidence, etc. it's just very obviously hypocritical. There's like a dozen trans athletes so I'm aware that ultimately it's a non-issue used by conservatives, but we are just blatantly acting in bad faith when we argue so strongly in favor of trans inclusion in sports. Pointing out it doesn't matter, rightfully, doesn't change this.
Second, the trans community's narrative at this point is almost entirely centered on "validity". The community is constantly fending off attacks pointed at people that politically disengaged people notice deviating significantly from the common understanding of a trans person. On some level, frankly, I can't disagree with them. The sheer quantity of nonbinary trans people who are entirely gender conforming is disheartening. I've been to several pride clubs at 3 different universities, all 3 of them were overwhelmingly cis conforming AFAB people saying they're nonbinary. The group leader was a gender conforming AMAB who went by Ze/Zir, the only noticeable difference was a pink highlight in his hair.
It's just, gender non conforming as a category has existed for so long lol. I really don't know if the term "transgender" should refer to people who clearly more belong in that category. Their experiences are just not terribly relevant. HRT, Gender confirming surgery, societal oppression, shared trauma from growing up trans and being hated by your family, hate crimes perpetrated against us, none of that came up in any of my pride clubs. It felt more like a nebulous gathering of generally left wing people with essentially no relevance to any of the traumas and trials I've faced and wanted support on.
I dunno, it just feels like the trans community doesn't have a shared suffering that's being projected to build empathy with broader society. It's more about feverish discussion of validity and micro identities, essentially like a leftist theory forum. I can't even feel at home in it despite being trans because it doesn't feel like anyone actually cares about it. I don't know what to do, it feels like trans people like me just don't have a home.
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u/Particular-Court-619 2d ago
Yeah, people like to home in on one specific issue and say 'it's because of this!' whereas it's about something deeper wrt values and identity. This is, again, Dems focusing on a culture war through a specific policy - it's like addressing economic woes by talking about tax credits.
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u/Just-Act-1859 2d ago
People do vote on self-interest - the number one issue of the election was cost of living.
It's just that liberals/progs are not seen as the solution on this issue, since they generally just want to spend more money. I think this is misguided in the US case where the right tends to run higher deficits, but in other countries it's pretty accurate! In Canada we've had years of Trudeau unwilling to exercise fiscal discipline the way that households have, and people are fed up with it.
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u/WeatherbyIsNot 2d ago
I don't see why people have to assume that "culture war" means there's only one side. Dems act like their minority coalitions are an embarrassment to them. It doesn't feel like dems even know what side they're on, they just pass the buck onto activists without ever taking firm stances. Have any Dems even tried to do anything about the hundreds of anti-LGBT laws that were passed in the past 4 years? Have any Dems tried to articulate why progressive cultural values are worth standing up for? It makes me feel like the party I've voted for my entire life doesn't believe in anything at all, because all I've heard is how they need to give in, capitulate, cut off the worst-polling demographics in their coalition, just cede the culture entirely to Republicans.
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u/Particular-Court-619 2d ago
"Have any Dems even tried to do anything about the hundreds of anti-LGBT laws that were passed in the past 4 years?"
Yes. Not their fault your info literacy is poodung
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u/WeatherbyIsNot 2d ago
Sorry, I missed when the dems did something about ID markers being reverted in Texas and Florida, trans healthcare bans passing unanimously in countless states (and the other week, federally!), bathroom bills now reaching the federal level, drag bans, sports bans... Hell, we saw a bathroom bill specifically targeted to fuck over the singular trans member of congress pass with barely a shrug. Maybe if any dems, who have held the presidency for the entire time this has been happening, stood up for their supposed values at a national level I wouldn't have to live in fear as my ability to live is slowly stripped away day by day.
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u/YeetThermometer John Rawls 2d ago
What exactly does “do something” mean to you? Yes, people are suing. Yes, Dems voted against these bills and were outvoted. Then there were elections when Democrats tried to turn out voters to replace the legislators who voted for the bills - and lost. What exactly should they be doing besides not losing? Shouting louder into the void?
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u/WeatherbyIsNot 2d ago
Passed legislation when they held federal power to protect these rights, passed more, robust sanctuary laws in blue states, packed the courts, Biden could have passed any number of executive orders at any time (like Trump promises to on day one, to restrict trans healthcare!)...
Edit: And maybe they could also actually vote against these things? Lol, look up how many dems voted for the recent healthcare ban in the military spending bill, how many dems allowed the McBride bathroom ban to go through...
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u/DrunkenBriefcases Jerome Powell 2d ago edited 2d ago
Passed legislation when they held federal power to protect these rights
When was that, exactly? Because by my count Democrats haven't had the ability to unilaterally pass a single federal bill outside the limited scope of reconciliation (which does not apply here) in 15 years. And that was only for a handful of weeks.
passed more, robust sanctuary laws in blue states,
I don't even know what this complaint seeks. Specifically, What do you think Dems have failed to do? List specific protections you think every blue leaning State has to pass to pass your bar. Because this sounds like empty padding.
packed the courts,
Why do you hate democracy? Because there is overwhelming opposition in the public to this. When did your wants become more important than the will of the majority? And how does an endless cycle of rigging the Courts every time the administration flips do anything but destabilize the nation?
Biden could have passed any number of executive orders at any time
...And? EOs aren't magic. trump promises - and passed! - loads of EOs that did absolutely nothing but pander to a fringe that cared less about reality than feeling like they had the ear of the powerful. Is that the sort of performative dance you're seeking? Because little else could be accomplished by EO that Biden didn't already do. And all of it will or would be washed away come late January.
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u/DrunkenBriefcases Jerome Powell 2d ago
I missed when the dems did something
Yes. You did. And the fact that you blame Dems for being unable to stop Republicans from doing things the voters have given them sufficient control to achieve is a you problem. Not a Democrat problem.
There is no magic wand here. If you understood how government works, you wouldn't be making this rant to begin with.
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u/Okbuddyliberals 2d ago
Why? Because fundamentally today’s Democrats are culture denialists. That is, they do not consider cultural issues real issues. They are typically viewed as politically motivated distractions or as expressions of something else entirely (i.e., racism, sexism, xenophobia, transphobia, etc.) They are not treated as issues that need to be dealt with on their own terms.
The Thomas Frank "What's the Matter with Kansas" book and its consequences of popularizing the "actually economic self interest is the only REAL way to vote and any other political arithmetic for what to care about is stupid and ignorant" narrative have been a disaster for the Democratic party
Once again bringing back the Brad Carson commentary from 2004 which seems just as relevant now as it was then
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u/Just-Act-1859 2d ago
#ThomasFrankreferenceklaxon
Seriously though, liberals can simultaneously 1. overweight how much voters want economic benefits and 2. underweight how much voters care about the economy. It is hilarious to see.
In light of the highest inflation since the 80s, voters don't want new spending, they just want prices to fall. They don't want to talk about a niche cultural issue, they want prices to fall. They don't care about climate change, they want prices to fall. They just want shit to work better.
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u/ThisElder_Millennial NATO 2d ago
Gotta meet people where they are, not where you want em to be. Whether we like it or not, the country might be a bit more culturally conservative than what the prevailing wisdom thought it was gonna be. And not to put too fine of a point on it, but speaking generally, the increasing diversity probably explains it to an extent. Most surveys I've seen have college educated white people as the most culturally progressive cohort out there. If that group is shrinking as a matter of vote share, then yeah, there's going to be a natural tacking to the right.
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u/hibikir_40k Scott Sumner 2d ago
That's not how the right does it: If you are chasing culture, you are losing. You have to set the culture.
We have Ruy here telling us all that the problem is most people are alienated from the culture, while the right is telling most people that the culture of the left is an oppressive majority trying to silence them. Just like the American Christian feels oppressed. What is really going on is that those people are being fed the idea that they are oppressed, and by who, into their culture. Culture changes: Animosity towards Russia used to be part of American culture, just like Thanksgiving. But it flipped immediately.
I am no Bernie Sanders supporter in the slightest, but it's easy to see Ruy is being unfair to him: He is trying to grab said culture of oppression, and trying to put the blame on other people. Just like the "blame everything on late state capitalism" cultural meme. It's like everything else in politics: Define your opponent in ways that are against the culture and values of the person. Define yourself in ways that line up. At the same time, change the things you have in your culture to be more useful to you later.
But Ruy doesn't really care about culture here. He is another Sonic The Hedgehog enthusiast, telling the party that they should be doing the same thing he has been prescribing for 20 years. He isn't discussing in good faith, or admitting that his perspective might have any holes. He wants the Democratic party to match his personal culture. His prescription might be right today, or it might not be. But if he's right, it's by accident
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u/ThisElder_Millennial NATO 2d ago
Idk man. Ruy has been harping on Dems for awhile now about their broader "attachments" to various identity politics groups and how it was really starting to alienate a lot of Hispanic voters, who were economically liberal but socially moderate or conservative. And the response to him by pretty much everyone on the online left has been dismissive and/or hostile. And then, lo and behold, Trump beats Dubya's share of the aforementioned vote (at least last I'd checked). Ruy kind of had his finger on the pulse within his own community.
I'm not advocating we all need to LIKE this. But if Dems want to actually win again, there needs to be an acknowledgement of where the voting public is at this moment and triangulate accordingly.
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u/MidnightLimp1 Paul Krugman 2d ago edited 2d ago
Is America really a “white supremacist” society? What does “structural racism” even mean and does it explain all the socioeconomic problems of nonwhites? Is anyone who raises questions about immigration levels a racist? Are personal pronouns necessary and something that should be popularized if not demanded? Are transwomen exactly the same as biological women and are those who question such a claim simply “haters” who should be expunged from polite society?
For each of these questions, the answer for the overwhelming majority of Americans is an obvious no. But in elite Democratic circles, it’s a different story.
Honestly, we should test this out. Send an anonymous questionnaire to every Democratic member of Congress and their chief of staff (presumably approximating what Teixeira means by “elite Democratic circles”), and then see how they respond. My priors are different than his.
Urban conservative elites like Bari Weiss (whose paper this essay was initially published in) increasingly aren’t of the “socially liberal, fiscally conservative” type. When was the last time you saw the Free Press publish about economics, instead of culture?
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u/SicutPhoenixSurgit Trans Pride 1d ago
all this discourse is very similar to the republicans after 2012 with immigration (which was completely wrong)
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2d ago
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u/Okbuddyliberals 2d ago
It's undeniable that trans rights has seen a major backslide in popularity according to polls, and that it's bigger than just "trans sports" (by far the least popular trans issue) too. Yet even with that, there's various pro trans policies that remain popular
And, well, democrats are also out of touch with the general public on all sorts of other issues (or perceived as such, and unwilling to do the Sister Souljah moments needed to disprove it). Maybe if Dems more broadly pivoted to the center and hit hard against unpopular far left ideas that are garbage, it would be easier for Dems to support trans rights with it being seen more of an exception, with the Dems still broadly seen as having popular ideas, as opposed to just one more sign of the general rule that Dems stand for unpopular lefty nonsense
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u/UnscheduledCalendar 2d ago
Yeah, but the question is whether or not you support it, not how common the issue is. This conditions your response on to whether or not your opinion changes IF these numbers change
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u/Particular-Court-619 2d ago
Okay, so the writer says the problem is the things Dem support... whereas my superior thesis is the Dems not controlling the narrative and thinking people's values and identity is based on economic status... then we get to this:
"These same voters believed Harris supported the following policies: using taxpayer dollars to pay for transgender surgeries for undocumented immigrants (83 percent); allowing children under 18 to transition genders without informing their parents (77 percent); decriminalizing border crossings (77 percent); allowing abortion up until the day of birth (76 percent); allowing illegal immigrants convicted of crimes to stay in America (75 percent); defunding the police (72 percent); and giving black Americans reparations for slavery (67 percent)."
So a huge chunk of the problem is people thinking the Dems support things they don't. Why change stances when the reason people don't like you is for stances you don't have?
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u/fkatenn Norman Borlaug 2d ago
You're not allowed to argue that someone doesn't support something when they are on literal record supporting said thing.
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u/MidnightLimp1 Paul Krugman 2d ago
Harris has never expressed support for all but two of those in any context. In 2019, she did raise her hand during an early debate when asked about making border crossings a civil offense, and responded to an ACLU survey where she expressed support for funding trans-specific healthcare for people regardless of immigration status, which was also the policy under the Trump administration.
I think this sub has been getting too credulous with conservative cultural narratives recently, despite all the complaints of succery that once referred to aggressive social democratic economic policy but increasingly seems to just refer to liberal cultural stances. Even for those two stances, brief statements (or hand-raises) from over five years ago are conflated with current support. And this upvoted comment, claiming that she supports most of these policies, is just flatly false.
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u/Okbuddyliberals 2d ago
So a huge chunk of the problem is people thinking the Dems support things they don't. Why change stances when the reason people don't like you is for stances you don't have?
Didn't Harris openly respond to some ACLU survey saying she supported trans surgeries for undocumented immigrants?
Harris and many other Dems ran in 2020 on decriminalizing illegal border crossings, and they pivoted since then but never actually addressed their past stances or gave much explanation for what changed, so of course normies are going to see that and think their political shift may not have been sincere and that they may still hold the old views
For abortion until the day of birth, mainstream Dems often do the rhetoric of saying "well barely anyone even gets late term abortions except for reasons of health... so we just shouldn't bother to ban late term abortions at all, it should be legal broadly as opposed to illegal except in cases of health". If they arent ok with banning it, they support it even if they try to cover it up by saying it doesn't happen much
Dems rarely talk about deporting criminal immigrants, and Dems rarely talk about how defending the police is bad. These are areas where Dems could benefit from doing more Sister Souljah moments and making it clearer they oppose these things
And Dems in California have been pushing for reparations for black people for the past few years, it's not unanimously supported but it's clearly a position (along with other reverse racist policy like affirmative action) that people within the democratic party are allowed to have while still being accepted by the party
So a huge chunk of the problem is people thinking the Dems support things they don't. Why change stances when the reason people don't like you is for stances you don't have?
So, like, with a decent chunk of these things, it's stuff Dems DO support or at least have in the past supported or that some Dems support while still being tolerated within the party
If Dems don't support these things, they should be louder about not supporting them, and in cases where they used to support them, don't just deflect and ignore the issue but actually explain why they used to support it and now don't, in a convincing way. And also Dems can stop being so afraid of pissing off the far left, and can more loudly punch left and do Sister Souljah moments against the far left
If they keep being so unwilling to basically do anything more than "very quietly disagree with the far left" at most, then they will continue to be seen as basically in sympathy with the far left
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u/Particular-Court-619 2d ago
Yeah, I mean some of them are supported some aren't - 2020 boofed us. Primaries... not even once
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u/Augustus-- 2d ago
I'll also say one more thing: with the exception of defund the police and reparations, I'm certain that all these policies are broadly supported by this very sub, and by most of the hardcore democratic congregations online. I'd go so far as to say they're probably quite popular with Democratic primary voters as well, and you'd be hard pressed to find a Democratic politician or activist group push back against any of these without getting blowback.
So how is this the problem of voter misinformation? This is just a list of democratic party policies, even if they aren't pushed at the level of legislation.
Everyone knows how much of the GOP supports a national abortion ban even if it's toxic to put forward a bill on it.
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u/Particular-Court-619 2d ago
I mean this sub also supports open borders - broadly speaking, most of those positions are not the center of the Dem party position, and if they are it's in a way that it's bigly affected by context.
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u/Augustus-- 2d ago
As I said it's not just this sub, it's democratic congregations online, it's democratic activist groups, and democratic politicians never speak against these things.
This isn't voter misinformation, this is the democratic party's policies.
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u/Augustus-- 2d ago edited 2d ago
using taxpayer dollars to pay for transgender surgeries for undocumented immigrants (83 percent);
So a huge chunk of the problem is people thinking the Dems support things they don't
But Harris actually supports this though. She very openly supported it in 2020 and never disavowed it. Just because she didn't campaign on it doesn't mean she no longer supports it.
Edit: she also very clearly supported decriminalization of border crossings https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/immigration/criminal-penalties-section-1325/
Would you seek the repeal of criminal penalties for people apprehended while crossing the border?
Harris said yes to this.
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u/EveryPassage 2d ago
2020 was a wild year where many Democrats said things they will have to live with for decades.
You can't put that genie back in the bottle easily.
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u/Okbuddyliberals 2d ago
They could at least try to be genuinely apologetic about it and try to move away from that stuff in an authentic manner, as opposed to just pretending it didn't happen even though everyone can see that it did happen
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u/ThisElder_Millennial NATO 2d ago
We're gonna need new Dems who never went on the record in 2019/2020, when Tumblr controlled the discussions within Democratic circles.
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u/Multi_21_Seb_RBR 2d ago
allowing abortion up until the day of birth (76 percent);
This is the fault of the media never ever pushing back on Trump when he mentioned this in the debate and also whenever any Republican mentions this in some sort of interview.
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u/Augustus-- 2d ago
Did the candidate ever push back? Did Harris ever say she doesn't support abortion up to the day of birth, or ever give a cutoff beyond which abortion should not be allowed (except in extreme cases)?
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u/EveryPassage 2d ago
Genuine question, what is Harris's position on when abortion should be illegal?
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u/jtalin NATO 2d ago edited 2d ago
You don't need to change stances. You need to change the language, image and political culture which leads people to associate your party with stances you don't have. Democratic party and more broadly American liberalism have been completely subsumed into the progressive cultural zeitgeist, and this needs to change.
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u/UnscheduledCalendar 2d ago
Yeah, but the question is whether or not you support it, not how common the issue is. This conditions your response on to whether or not your opinion changes IF these numbers change.
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u/modularpeak2552 NATO 2d ago
Editor’s note: This is a slightly longer version of an essay that originally appeared in The Free Press, where Ruy is now a contributing writer.
lol nah im good
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2d ago
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u/D2Foley Moderate Extremist 2d ago
Wokeness is going to destroy American liberal, and probably liberalism everywhere in the world.
Lol
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2d ago
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u/D2Foley Moderate Extremist 2d ago
Reality where people have to define woke instead of blaming it for being the cause of everything they don't like
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u/ROYBUSCLEMSON Unflaired Flair to Dislike 2d ago
"teehee what is wokeness anyway?" isn't fooling anyone
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2d ago
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u/bd_one The EU Will Federalize In My Lifetime 2d ago
Clearly the problem is alt-right media personalities trying to gaslight us into thinking Zendaya isn't hot
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u/ThisElder_Millennial NATO 2d ago
Personally, not my type. I get the appeal, but I prefer a few more curves.
Like, I get why Cap went back and stayed with Hayley Atwell.
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u/WeatherbyIsNot 2d ago
These issues reflect deeply held beliefs and values and are vitally important to ordinary voters, especially working-class voters, not diversions from real issues foisted upon them by crafty Republicans. So far, even the screamingly obvious implications of this last election have not been enough to shock many, if not most, Democrats out of their culture denialist torpor. We shall see if this denialism survives the next few years of the Trump administration and the necessity Democrats clearly face to broaden their coalition among the very voters for whom cultural issues are intensely real and the Democratic brand intensely alienating.
Yes, I agree - as a working class LGBT person, these are deeply held beliefs and values that are important to me. But that's obviously not what's meant here, is it? Why bother saying "ordinary voters" when clearly you don't hold all votes to be equally important & what you mean is "white, cisgender, heterosexual voters".
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