r/ireland • u/Eddie-stark • Oct 29 '24
Former British colonies owe ‘debt of gratitude’, says Robert Jenrick The Brits are at it again
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/oct/29/former-british-colonies-owe-debt-of-gratitude-robert-jenrick-reparations152
u/DazzlingGovernment68 Oct 29 '24
I'm super grateful for roads and ports that they used to export food during a famine
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u/Kangoovan Oct 29 '24
Don’t forget to include the railways & canals. & castles & military barracks & naval barracks to protect us vulnerable Irish peasants.
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u/UrbanStray Oct 29 '24
The railways were privately built.
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u/SeanB2003 Oct 29 '24 edited Oct 29 '24
The diverging paths of Ireland and Northern Ireland are the best example of how fucking brain dead British conservatives who go on like this truly are.
Within a century Ireland, an economic backwater, became one of the richest nations in Europe through having control of its own destiny. Meanwhile Northern Ireland, the most economically prosperous part of the island, has become a sclerotic statelet dependent on British largesse.
But look, tell you what, if being colonised is so great then I think we should let the Egyptians or the Norwegians or something take over Britain for a few hundred years, make them second class citizens, maybe do a famine or two to them, make them learn a new language. They'll be all the better for it, they'll be grateful.
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u/Niexh Oct 29 '24
At least they're confined to neglecting their own territory now like the north of England.
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u/brinz1 Oct 29 '24
I have lived in Manchester and then Yorkshire for a while.
Learning about the miners strikes and seeing the degradation made me suggest to people that London treated the north of England like another colonial state.
They were bemused by this
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u/Niexh Oct 29 '24
Yeah everything has a £ value outside of the capital and it's always questioned whether they're worth spending on.
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u/Skiamakhos Oct 29 '24
That's pretty accurate. I mean it's no gorta mór but you can read about the Lancashire cotton famine. When the supply of cotton to the cotton mills dried up because of the American Civil War they wouldn't pay the workers, so the whole region just starved. Likewise, before nationalisation there was a strike at Giant's Hall in Standish near Wigan and the owner said "I'll see them eat their young." That's a mostly Catholic area too.
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u/brinz1 Oct 29 '24
Interestingly, the Cotton Unions supported the American Union in its fight against slavery.
Also, if you were a Catholic anywhere between Birkenhead and Burnage, you were probably of Irish Descent
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u/Skiamakhos Oct 29 '24
Yup, my mum's side of the family are from all round that way. My dad's family are all Mayo, no English or anything else, but my mum's family are a mix of English & Irish from all over that way - there's Culshaws & Ashursts on the English side, but my great granddad John Ashurst, his dad was an O'Neill but he was born out of wedlock. His parents married later but he got all huffy about it & said "If I wasn't good enough for your name when I was born, I'm not good enough for it now!" & he stuck with Ashurst, his mum's family name. There's a bunch of Collinses in there as well from Wicklow, close enough that my gran spent practically every summer with them in Tinahely. It's interesting history - like, y'know the Witches of Pendle were all likely Catholics persecuted for their faith, and there was Margaret Clitheroe who was martyred, pressed to death because she harboured a priest.
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u/NewryIsShite Down Oct 29 '24
My brother in christ, they still control and neglect the north east of Ireland. Look at all the secret documents from the troubles they still keep hidden from the public under public immunity orders to hide the fact they colluded with terrorists who almost solely murdered Irish citizens. Look at how they stoked tensions in the north during post brexit negotiations. Tensions which exist solely due to British colonialism.
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u/shorelined And I'd go at it agin Oct 29 '24
Apart from Wales, the north of England is the only part of these islands that has suffered the whims of the English establishment longer than Ireland has
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u/RoughAccomplished200 Oct 29 '24
Yes the empire discriminated against the lowest classes in the UK and Yes the north of England never fully shared the spoils of being part of the world's most prosperous country over many centuries however I think the Welsh might have a different opinion as to who has suffered longer, the Scottish cleared out of the Highlands could contribute to that debate and that's before the millions who were murdered during the genocide in Ireland could probably mount a strong counter argument to your assertions.
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u/DoughnutHole Clare Oct 29 '24
The Scottish cleared out of the Highlands could contribute to that debate
The people cleared out of the highlands did not consider themselves Scots, and the Scots shouldn’t have any claim to their persecution. They were Gaels like us.
The Scots (ie the people of the Scottish lowlands) were the ones largely responsible for the highland clearances and the near extinction of Gaelic culture in Scotland, not the English. Lowland Scots wanted their land and fought as part of the British army to get them out.
The Scots paint themselves as a victim of England when the Scottish King sat on the English throne, the Kingdom of Scotland willingly unified with England, and the Scots were eager participants in British colonial projects for centuries.
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u/AnShamBeag Oct 29 '24
Well said.
The Gaelic Highlanders were essentially our brethren. No wonder they wanted to eradicate them..
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u/shorelined And I'd go at it agin Oct 29 '24
Oh of course, the north of England didn't suffer anywhere near as long as Wales, that was my point, the "apart from Wales" part. And the north certainly didn't suffer as deeply as anywhere else, but I didn't suggest that.
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u/Louth_Mouth Oct 29 '24
Britain's wealth was concentrated in the north of England at the peak of the Empire, During the 19th century Liverpool's wealth eclipsed that of London. Just look at the 19th and early 20th century Civic Buildings, Banks, shops & even factories in Northern towns, no expense was spared.
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u/shorelined And I'd go at it agin Oct 29 '24
Yep true, there was plenty of wealth in Dublin and Belfast too at that time, Scotland too. But it's a moot point, because I wasn't suggesting anything of severity, merely that that the British establishment carried out elsewhere ultimately had its genesis in their own country. Ireland was undoubtedly colonised in a way that would be ridiculous to suggest for the north of England, but the Norman invasion hammered the north with permanent consequences. The point is that this is where the British monarchy emerged from its own shore with lots of experience of hammering people, Ireland was next on the list and where they really honed the craft.
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u/SeanG909 Oct 29 '24
I think we should let the Egyptians or the Norwegians or something take over Britain for a few hundred years,
King Cnut has entered the chat
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u/AntDogFan Oct 29 '24
Listen most people in the uk hate this guy too. In a functioning democracy he would have been barred from being an MP and maybe got prison time for his admitted corruption.
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u/wh0else Oct 30 '24
While you can't keep the Tories down (unfortunately), right now I guess he's a losing leadership contender for a losing party, so his extreme views are hardly reflective of the wider British population. I will say though that I've had British people genuinely tell me that Ireland had been civilised by Britain, and they were utterly ignorant of how the empire was a wealth extraction engine built on the blood of those colonised. I think wealthy families must send their kids to private schools that teach a heavily jingoistic version of history! 😂
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u/Unlikely_Ad6219 Oct 29 '24
If the Norwegians took over the UK it would likely make the place noticeably better.
Actually can we get Norway to take over Ireland instead? We get our share of their sovereign wealth fund right.
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u/SeanB2003 Oct 29 '24
I don't mean "take over", I mean colonised. There's a difference, which is the point. You get a share of nothing, colonialism is an extractive process.
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u/No_Shine_4707 Oct 29 '24
To be fair, most of the things that you enjoy in the modern world and modern society have been influenced by the British. Science, Industry, medicine. Most people had a pretty shitty existence pre the modern world, incuding most of the British. The world was a brutal place. Everybody wants to be a victim today though, whilst enjoying the privilages of the modern western world that was so heavily influenced by the British.
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u/SeanB2003 Oct 29 '24
Specifically, what cultural and scientific advancement was enabled by the penal laws?
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u/No_Shine_4707 Oct 29 '24
Despite not because of. There seems to be some sort of ideal that the world was a progressive utopia before the British. It was not. All of human history and all of the peoples of these islands have been shaped by conquest, brutality and exploitation. The world wasnt fair. The British contributed to this history, they also contributed to pulling us out of this and shaping the modern world and modern society that we now know and enjoy.
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u/SeanB2003 Oct 29 '24
Are you under the impression that I'm criticising the existence of British people? I am criticising their colonial exploits, which are the subject of Jenrick's remarks and this discussion thread.
You're responding by saying they made contributions to the modern world. You agree that those were despite their colonial activities.
So what exactly is your point? Should we not criticise British colonialism because British people "despite not because of" that colonialism made scientific discoveries?
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u/fartingbeagle Oct 29 '24
Actually can we get Norway to take over Ireland instead?Brian Boru: Oh shit, here we go again.....
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u/Rulmeq Oct 29 '24
We have the equivalent of the north sea oil reserves in offshore wind, and we're refusing to exploit it. We will end up auctioning it off, and all the heavy industry will be outsourced, and we'll end up taking a tiny % of the "profits" (after a few decades of them writing off every cent as a loss).
But, we're fine with that, because meh
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u/APisaride Oct 29 '24
We should absolutely be building out the offshore wind, but it is not remotely comparable as a windfall to UK's North Sea Oil.
Offshore wind is very expensive to build the infrastructure to harvest, and is a relatively immature technology so there is risk involved.
I agree it is certainly an opportunity, and it is necessary for us to exploit because of the climate crisis, but it's very much up in the air as to how beneficial it will be to us financially.
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u/micosoft Oct 29 '24
How are we “refusing” to “exploit” it? Is this like the magical oil and gas reserves that the oil companies handed back their licences on? Or the mythical fisheries that are worth billions except we don’t eat fish and won’t work on fishing boats? Where exactly does this power go to? Do we fill buckets with it to export? A lot of wild statements built on conspiracy theories. To “exploit” our wind capacity will be a 30 year programme minimum to build out the Infrastructure needed.
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u/Rulmeq Oct 29 '24
You're the small minded kind of person who is the root cause of the apathy.
We invest in green hydrodgen, we invest in our ports, we export that gas as methane to Germany who are still buying theirs from Russia. But no, lets just post pathetic sarcastic take downs, that will ensure nothing is ever done.
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u/Living_Ad_5260 Oct 29 '24
If hydrogen worked, we would already be using it.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232983331_The_Future_of_the_Hydrogen_Economy_Bright_or_Bleak describes the many unsolvable problems with hydrogen.
These include:
* you have to leak off the gas to avoid pressure problems
* the heating value per unit volume is 1/3 methane => need tanks at least 3x the size
* the standard 40 tonnes fuel truck would only deliver 320kg of hydrogen (compared to 2400kg of methane)
* the energy cost of compressing H2 is approx 10x the cost of compressing methane
* because of the small size of H2 molecules, pipelines are likely to have very serious leakage problems2
u/Hungry-Western9191 Oct 29 '24
Green hydrogen may be part of our future although I can't see it being used much for transport. The issues you point out there are difficult.to fix and EVs have more or less .won that fight. However industry and agriculture likely have a use for it and I think we need to overbuild renewable to reduce fossil fuel usage. It might even end up used for power storage although battery tech is probably the winner there.
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u/Relevant-Low-7923 Oct 30 '24
Green hydrogen is just a less efficient energy storage system compared to a battery
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u/Living_Ad_5260 Oct 29 '24
Renewables are inherently unreliable - what happens on a winter night with little wind? On those days, you still need a reliable power source. But using the renewables when the wind blows fucks the economics of building reliable power stations because they can only operate in a crisis.
Ireland has been relying on the connection to the English grid up to now, but the English also have a potential lack of capacity. When the English have a power shortage, will they still power Ireland?
We should bite the bullet and install some of these small modular nuclear reactors.
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u/Relevant-Low-7923 Oct 30 '24
Green hydrogen makes no sense. It’s a waste of money by people who don’t understand the second law of thermodynamics
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u/TitsMaggie69 Oct 29 '24
Yes. Thank you. You’re fully correct. It’s very frustrating seen them other comments.
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u/struggling_farmer Oct 29 '24
But look, tell you what, if being colonised is so great then I think we should let the Egyptians or the Norwegians or something take over Britain for a few hundred years, make them second class citizens, maybe do a famine or two to them, make them learn a new language. They'll be all the better for it, they'll be grateful.
Isnt that the fear of the far right, Foreigners will take over the country!
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u/B0bLoblawLawBl0g Oct 29 '24
I mean the Normans (aka Norse) took over Anglo-Saxon England and set the foundation for its empire building. Also, they made French the official court language for almost 300 years.
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u/SeanB2003 Oct 29 '24
Yep, and the Normans came to Ireland and became "more Irish than the Irish themselves" or whatever. There is a distinction to be drawn between how colonialism worked before the advent of the modern nation state and the technological and ideological tools which enabled it to emerge.
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u/bimbo_bear Oct 29 '24
I'm not sure letting the Vikings take over the UK again would help things lol.
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u/NooktaSt Oct 29 '24
I think you are forgetting the FFG have drive Ireland turned Ireland into a kip since the foundation of the state…
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u/Spitfire5793 Oct 29 '24
Tax haven Ireland vs Troubles ravaged Northern Ireland, what a great economic comparison. It's not that long ago Ireland was taking emergency loans from the UK (and others) to stay afloat
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u/SeanB2003 Oct 29 '24
Loans which were paid back with interest. They'd have been paid back earlier but, unlike other lenders to Ireland during the financial crisis, the UK would have imposed a penalty.
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u/Spitfire5793 Oct 29 '24
Sure the streets are paved with gold, what's an early repayment penalty to Ireland
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u/outhouse_steakhouse 🦊🦊🦊🦊ache Oct 29 '24
Britain is far more of a tax haven than Ireland, when you consider the City of London plus the various remaining British colonies that are basically rocks in the ocean where nobody lives, but tens of thousands of banks and insurance companies supposedly have their international HQ's there. All those colonies have a puppet government controlled by financial companies whose real HQ is in the City of London, but the British government sanctimoniously claims that these colonies are sovereign territories and therefore there is nothing it can do about rampant tax evasion and money laundering. Over 50% of the world supply of money held offshore to evade tax is in British territories.
A tax haven, by the way, is a territory where the government has been captured by vested interests such as financial companies, who write laws for their own private benefit, and there is little or no economic activity apart from those companies moving money around. This could not be further from the truth in Ireland which leads the world in pharmaceuticals, food exports and many other areas.
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u/BackRowRumour Oct 29 '24
Nothing to do with the brutality of the Troubles.
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u/SeanB2003 Oct 29 '24
No more nor less than the brutality of rebellion and repression that characterised the colonial relationship up to independence. The RIC didn't emerge from the ground unbidden.
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u/4n0m4nd Oct 29 '24
Why did the Troubles happen?
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u/BackRowRumour Oct 29 '24
It's not as if any genius economic plan could have been done with the violence wrecking investment and confidence. It's intellectual laziness.
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u/4n0m4nd Oct 29 '24
It's always fairly likely you're going to have violence in a colonialist apartheid state.
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u/BackRowRumour Oct 29 '24
PIRA strategy was explicitly to wreck the economy and make holding on unattractive. But Let's not actually think about what that entailed, and the consequences. Not when we can have a rousing chorus of idolising violence. Or consider that Scotland and Wales achieved devolution without brutalising themselves.
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u/4n0m4nd Oct 29 '24
"Let's not think about what that entailed and the consequences" is a hilarious thing to say while unironically refusing to answer questions about the causes.
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u/BackRowRumour Oct 29 '24
Of course there's a history. But to say that the Troubles weren't the major impact is like blaming the Iron Curtain on the Treaty of Versailles, and dropping the mic.
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u/DBrennan13459 Oct 29 '24
Good to see the Tories have learned absolutely nothing since they lost the election.
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u/Barilla3113 Oct 29 '24
"Do we need to have a coherent economic vision? No, lets just double down on the culture wars."
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u/John_Smith_71 Oct 29 '24
Maybe the coherent economic vision is to ask the Commonwealth if they wouldn't mind being colonies again, forced to buy products from the UK, at rates the UK government sets.
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u/bobisthegod Oct 29 '24
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u/trinerr And I'd go at it agin Oct 29 '24
When are they not at it?
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u/pathfinderoursaviour Monaghan Oct 29 '24
I think there was an aprils fools one year where it changed for the day to “the brits aren’t at it again”
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u/4_feck_sake Oct 29 '24
Let's be honest we're not his target audience.
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u/Markies_Myth Oct 29 '24
He is in a leadership battle with a more popular candidate and trying his best to be relevant. Oh and the more "popular" (to Tories I mean) candidate is a younger black women and child of immigrants. The "bring back Empire day" schtick is kinda hilarious in that way.
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u/KobraKaiJohhny A Durty Brit Oct 29 '24
He is in a leadership battle to be leader of the 'stupid c*nts'.
In the most basic sense, that's what this is. Idiotic mendacious people vote for Tory leaders and they vote consistently for people that propose viciously stupid and mean spirited policy, intended to hurt others.
He's just the latest c*nt leader. And if you move the Asterix in the last sentence one letter over that sentence still fully works.
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u/John_Smith_71 Oct 29 '24
I'm surprised there is anyone left who thinks the Empire was a 'good' thing.
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u/4_feck_sake Oct 29 '24
In the UK? If the Brexit result is any judge, there's still plenty who think that.
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u/LucyVialli Oct 29 '24
"Jenrick made the comments in an article in the Daily Mail" - well, there you go.
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u/shorelined And I'd go at it agin Oct 29 '24
The standard of politicians the Tories are producing is shocking. They were always wankers but you knew they at least formed some coherent ideology, even if it was horrific. Some of these idiots can barely regurgitate a soundbite. And to think these are supposed to be the cream of the crop, imagine the lunatics that are being filtered out by the student council elections, the conservatives clubs, parish and county councillors. To get this far you previously had to demonstrate at least some sort of competency, at least to the ideology if nothing else.
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u/Barilla3113 Oct 29 '24
It's the Americanization of their politics. Both parties agree on economically being a cunt to the poor and vulnerable. So the "political debate" is between open and quiet bigotry.
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u/Busy_Category7977 Oct 29 '24
Always nice to be reminded where we really stand from time to time. Now, hold that truth in mind and consider all the grovelling quislings we have in this country who'd happily wipe the master's holes again. Thank goodness we broke away when we did, that's all I can say. Poor bastards in the North are accursed with them, in case you doubt it.
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u/Donegal-Death-Worm Oct 30 '24
100% but the damage was done long before we broke away. They shaped the national psyche. "Cute hoors" and "chancers" come in handy when you're trying to take on the Evil Empire, but we continued to glorify them to our detriment.
Having family and many a colleague from the North, it's easy to see what growing up and being (rightly) suspicious of or outright despising your neighbours and institutions did to them - they even have a word for it!
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u/Busy_Category7977 Oct 30 '24
That tendency predates the English conquest, you can find it all over our folklore and history. Full of tricksters and sly carryon.
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u/cyberlexington Oct 29 '24
What in the absolute ever loving fuckity fuckweasling is this blue blooded Tory asshat babbling on about?
"“The territories colonised by our empire were not advanced democracies. Many had been cruel, slave-trading powers. Some had never been independent. The British empire broke the long chain of violent tyranny as we came to introduce – gradually and imperfectly – Christian values.”"
When Britain was hard r-ing its way across the world, it was not an advanced democracy, it was cruel and a slave trading power. And it just replaced one tyrant with itself. And as for Christian values, fuck off you absolute slimebucket.
I dont know, but this has made me irrationally angry.
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u/Eddie-stark Oct 29 '24
So, does anyone want to pick up a thank you card? Guess we forgot to thank them.
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u/susanboylesvajazzle Oct 29 '24
I can't wait for either of these to headbangers to be Tory leader. Piss poor as Labour are turning out to be, there's no chance that the Tories (Old racists with money) under them and/or Reform (Old racist without money) will have any hope of sitting in the Government benches. Meanwhile the countries around them, including former colonies, get on with being proper countries while the UK continues to battle with it's addition to self harm.
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u/PetersMapProject Oct 29 '24
Am British, can confirm I'm doing a massive facepalm at the moment
But he's currently just playing to an audience of Conservative party members, who will elect him or Badenoch as party leader. They are disproportionately old, white and right wing, so this sort of messaging will go down relatively well with them.
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u/IntentionFalse8822 Oct 29 '24
If he gets the gig we'd better get used to this sort of BS. He's pandering to a racist voter base.
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u/Valken Oct 29 '24
Common enough "take", even from people of his generation. I had to hear it from an "expat" in his 40s who spent a long time in Singapore at a work thing.
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u/Ok-Call-4805 Derry Oct 29 '24
I think we should stop referring to them as 'expats'. Just call them immigrants. It'll drive them mad.
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u/John_Smith_71 Oct 29 '24
He is all of 41.
Which is surprising, as his views reflect those of someone at least a century older.
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u/TheStoicNihilist Never wanted a flair anyways Oct 29 '24
Face like a sucking wound.
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u/MasterSafety374 Oct 29 '24
Face like the taste of a lemon
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u/vague_intentionally_ Oct 29 '24
Has Jenrick been smoking crack cocaine? How delusional are these morons? We want nothing to do with them alongside every other country they invaded and plundered.
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u/ShowmasterQMTHH Oct 29 '24
Jenrick is the least prone to this thinking of the two tory leadership candidates.
And considering the other is a woman of colour, thats saying something.
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u/Willing-Departure115 Oct 29 '24
This guy is trying to win a Tory party leadership election. So he needs to appeal to the very narrow slice of people in the country who are Tory party members. They are, broadly speaking, old, wealthy and very misty eyed about their former empire.
As Richard Nixon used to say about winning primaries in the US, you campaigned on the far right or left to appeal to your party base, and then you ran as fast as you could to the centre ground to win an election. Well, at least that’s how they did it in his day.
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u/UrbanStray Oct 29 '24
It's disappointing to see the lack of self-awareness continue in Britain in this day and age. You'd think the ultimate downfall of the empire and mess that Brexit brought about would be a humbling experience.
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u/Cear-Crakka Oct 29 '24
I'm so grateful I don't speak my mother tongue, I'm delighted I'll never know the customs of old and I'm just so ecstatic constantly mistaken for a cononliser. So grateful.
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u/Apprehensive_Ratio80 Oct 29 '24
The world: Ok thanks, now, can we have all the gold and jewels and resources you took from our lands? Also all the finances your country hoarded for centuries while the rest of us struggled. We're not unreasonable so we'll round the number up to the nearest trillionth !
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u/Unfair-Surround533 Oct 29 '24 edited Oct 29 '24
Sure...He can have my gratitude as he gets on his knees, opens his mouth and I unzip...
Sincerely,
An Indian
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u/Hour_Mastodon_9404 Oct 29 '24
Britain owes a debt to it's colonies - it's colonies are simply owed, they owe Britain nothing.
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u/redelastic Oct 29 '24
Maybe the Tories having a far-right pro-Israel leader is a good thing in that it will keep them out of power for longer.
In December 2023, Jenrick called for Israel to "finish the job" in its war with Hamas in Gaza.
Kemi Badenoch is favourite and she's another piece of work.
Keir Starmer is basically a Tory anyway.
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u/redsredemption23 Oct 29 '24
Maybe the Tories having a far-right pro-Israel leader is a good thing in that it will keep them out of power for longer.
I read this and was about to respond that Starmer is also a right-wing Zionist, but you beat me to it.
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u/redelastic Oct 29 '24 edited Oct 29 '24
He's honestly like a Tory leader. And we know who owns him. They've gutted the Labour party, with help from his Cork chief of staff.
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u/redsredemption23 Oct 29 '24
I'd love to see a Labour party that actually stood for something and had principles. Can't stand Starmer.
Politically, though, it works. The UK electorate is fairly right-wing with a preference for a facade of Eton and Oxbridge stiff upper lip respectability.
The Tories will win 3 out of every 4 elections, with the exception being when they go batshit right-wing and Labour steps in to fill the 'respectable right-wing' void. Even if you pit batshit Tory vs a Labour that stands for anything remotely left wing (Bojo vs Corbyn) they vote for the batshit buffoon.
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u/redelastic Oct 29 '24
And now the Tories are moving further right to counter the influence of Reform UK. The fact that Starmer is the furthest left political figure is a grim reflection of British politics.
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u/Ok-Call-4805 Derry Oct 29 '24
Keir Starmer is basically a Tory anyway.
There's no 'basically' about it. The man is a Tory. He supports Israel and one of his first policies was to freeze old people.
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u/EnvironmentalShift25 Oct 29 '24
"Dozens of countries around the world get to celebrate independence days because of the British"
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u/cyberlexington Oct 29 '24
Once every six days or something like that, a country celebrates independence from Britain
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u/Gean-canach Oct 29 '24
A good few years back I was travelling Peru and sitting in a bar and overheard a group of English saying how sad it was to see the way Spain had left their former colonies and how proud they were on how Britain left theirs.
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u/eternallyfree1 Ulster Oct 29 '24 edited Oct 29 '24
The average English person (especially if they happen to be an upper class southerner) barely has any knowledge of what happened in Ireland 170-180 years ago. The history of the Famine generally isn’t taught in England, and most English people will just stand there looking befuddled if you mention it. How can you expect them to have any grasp of the inner workings of far-flung colonies thousands of miles away if they aren’t even aware of what occurred right on their own doorstep?
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u/Relevant-Low-7923 Oct 30 '24
Even in the context of the US/Canada/Australia/New Zealand, that’s just taking the credit for their own development away from them.
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u/Hip2trip2_hippyhip Oct 29 '24
If anything Britain owes a monetary debt to all their former colonies for the money and items they stole. As well as all the lives they destroyed.
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u/Time-Comment-141 Oct 29 '24
As a Brit, please accept your deepest apologies for this walking piece of human sewage.
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u/Ok-Kaleidoscope1866 Oct 29 '24
I agree. They civilised half the world, purely out of the goodness of their hearts, and 150 years on we're still reaping the benefits
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u/Key-Lie-364 Oct 29 '24
Competing with Kemi for the pink trouser vote but, he has already lost.
Personally I was hoping the Tories would elect Cruella Bravermann..
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u/ApprehensiveShame363 Oct 29 '24
He is running for Tory leader, I think. So he is trying to appeal to the loonatic fringe of British society that make up it's membership. They are basically The Daily Mail in human form, but with even less self awareness.
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u/John_Smith_71 Oct 29 '24
Just an idle thought, but it is entirely possible that the former colonies could very possibly have developed economically and politically, without the imposition of rule of foreign powers whose aim was to extract as much wealth from them as possible, whether the wealth was minerals, food, or labour (including slaves).
But I guess that is the Tory (and Neocon) mindset, people are there to be exploited and the wealth they create funneled towards a supposedly deserving few, telling those doing the work that it is in their own best interests this arrangement continues.
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u/Skiamakhos Oct 29 '24
Oh we don't claim him. He's a POS as far as everyone's concerned. Him and 30p Lee, and the rest of those f*ckers. 😡
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u/kpaneno Oct 29 '24
Ah yes Monthy Python's "what have the Romans ever done for us" those English Toffs knew what they were saying
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u/virgilmustdie3X Oct 30 '24
Never, in the earths long storied history, has the entire rest of the world been so on the same page. 🙄
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u/Purpington67 Oct 30 '24
For all the shit they did and still do to Ireland, it is well down the queue of countries with a bone to pick about the horrors of English rule.
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u/Current_Focus2668 Oct 30 '24
Tories gonna Tory. Jingoistic and culture wars nonsense is all they yap about these days
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u/rsynnott2 Oct 30 '24
The way the Tory party works is, the parliamentary party chooses two candidates, and then those two candidates have to compete to be chosen by the Tory membership. The Tory membership is largely made up of the most insane available 80 year olds, so expect the two remaining candidates to say increasingly ridiculous things for the next while.
(This system is how they got Johnson and Truss, remember.)
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u/Saor_Ucrain The Fenian Oct 29 '24
The most russian shit I've ever heard.
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Oct 29 '24
[deleted]
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u/Saor_Ucrain The Fenian Oct 29 '24
I think you are misunderstanding.
I just find the parallels between russia and britain amusing.
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u/Unitaig Oct 29 '24
Unsurprised. This is what happens when ex-colonies partake in making history more playable - if it's generally ok with us, why would they care?
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u/Leavser1 Oct 29 '24
While the take is fucked up us as a country were left in a pretty decent state by the Brits.
The north was absolutely booming (building ships and textiles)
Dublin was the second city of the commonwealth with an amazing tram system. And we had a fantastic train system
Early governments absolutely fucked it. Isolationism really killed us
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u/Rulmeq Oct 29 '24
The first governement started off well, with the Ardnacrusha scheme. It was when Dev got his grip on power that we starte off with the isolationist bullshit (basically he turned us into a backwater theocracy, that took us nearly 70 years to overcome, and we still have it in our schools and hospitals, which is fucking bizarre)
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u/Substance79 Oct 29 '24
To be fair, all the castles they built really brings in the tourists. Thanks Britain.👍
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u/No_Shine_4707 Oct 29 '24
Northern Ireland is a regional dispute and an ongoing localised issue with self determination (whatever that might be). It is not under occupation. Ultimately, the people of Northern Ireland will determine their own destiny.
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u/Dezmo999 Oct 29 '24
I'd endorse a "national day if gratitude to Britain" if it gets us another bank holiday!!
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u/No_Shine_4707 Oct 29 '24
Fair point. The thread stated that there had been no benefit from the British Empire.I was just responding by saying that is not strictly true. The scientific, technological, industrial and cultural influence, alongside the advancements in medicine have had a huge impact on the western world. And yes, people do still harbour historic grudges against the 'English' for some reason. Im half Polish. My Grandad hated the Germans until the day he died for the atrocities he personally experienced during the 2nd world war and the mulriple members of family he lost. Because he was a victim and had direct experience. My family today though.... they recognise it as history and can make a clear distinction between history and current day. There is no victim mentality, harbouring of grudge or association with the current German nation..... and we have a connection through living memory. I have often had disparaging remarks from Irish people about being English. I have Welsh, Polish and working class English heritage. Colonial aristocrats were nothing to do with me.....
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Oct 29 '24
I for one am thankful for some of the railways the Brits built however I feel like we have missed a trick by doing almost zero with them in our hundred years of independence.
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u/UrbanStray Oct 29 '24
None of the extant railways here were built by the British government. Not only that, but there was refusal in Westminster to nationalise the system when proposed by Irish MPs https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1873-04-29/debates/d4948f59-0760-4d33-a20c-19640b2b56cf/IrishRailways%E2%80%94PurchaseByTheState%E2%80%94ResOlution
It wasn't until 1916 that they did nationalise the railways either as an emergency measure for WWI (like they were in Britain) or in response to the Rising, I'm not sure which.
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Oct 29 '24
Private British companies with British government money/subsidies during British rule then. I mean it’s still the Brits at the end of the day.
Doesn’t change that we haven’t done much to improve it since independence.
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u/UrbanStray Oct 29 '24
They were not British companies. Most of the shareholders would likely have been Irish Protestants (who possessed a disproportionate amount of the wealth), but there were wealthy Catholics who were heavily involved too. William Dargan, William Martin Murphy etc. Except for the light railways of later years, I don't believe there were any subsidies that weren't in the form of loans. Considering, how much of a central role the nationalistically-minded Dargan played from the very beginning it makes no sense to give unanimous credit to "The Brits".
It didn't change much since independance because much like the rest of the world railways started to lose relevance after WW1, when newfangled inventions like motorcars and motorbuses outcompeted them. Britain axed most of network under the Beeching Cuts, Northern Ireland did its own major cuts.
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Oct 29 '24
You know what, I just looked this up, and honestly, colour me shocked—thanks for that! That’s so interesting.
My knowledge of Irish railway history was pretty much limited to ‘the Brits built the railway to Kingstown so they could have nice holiday homes away from the Dublin riffraff’ which as it turns out, is also wrong.
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u/UrbanStray Oct 30 '24
I can't blame you, there is much common misunderstanding surrounding railway history.
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u/glockenschpellingbee Oct 29 '24