r/iaido • u/More-Competition-603 • 17d ago
Any recommendations for a real katana (traditionally made)
Looking for a traditionally made katana, i don't care so much about the type of steel as long as it's a quality katana but i would like a budget friendly katana, not a fake one that can be sold for like 30 quid. A proper katana, i wouldn't mind even a name of a company that sells good traditionally made katana's.
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u/KeyAgileC 17d ago edited 17d ago
What do you mean by "traditionally made"?
The traditional manufacturing method is how swordsmiths in Japan do it. The processĀ involves tamahagane, lots of manual labour, and years of training to produce a sword to their quality standards. That is traditionally made, they come with a certificate of authenticity, and they cost thousands, at least.
But you mention you're looking into 1060 carbon steel "traditionally made, budget friendly" katanas, so clearly the authentic method is not what you care about. So when you say "traditionally made", what do you mean? What part of the process do you want to go in what way?
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u/More-Competition-603 17d ago
By traditionally made, i mean with a certification as cheap as possible originally the best quality i can afford with a few hundred quid maybe 500 ive established it'll take time to save up but for the meanwhile while im waiting for enough to buy a tamahagane katana. Just for practise at the moment, i know it seems like im contradicting myself, but to sum it up, cheap, good-decent quality steel, certification, hamon, part of what i meant by traditionally made is folded steel.
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u/itomagoi 17d ago
You said quid, which implies that you are in the UK. There's a "samurai sword" ban in the UK (I was there when it came into effect and I had already started iaido). Exception is made for genuine nihonto (in this case certificated by a body like the NBSK), or for practitioners of a martial art. So you'd have to be practicing iaido or a similar art to own a replica sword or a live blade that isn't classed as nihonto. Judging from your question and follow up comments though, you do not belong to a Japanese sword art, and you're nowhere near the budget for a nihonto.
Btw, owning a nihonto isn't just funsies. They are both weapons and works of art and there's some responsibility involved as an owner. There's health and safety because those things are bloody dangerous. But even if you only own one to admire it and no one else sees it, or are pretty good at safe handling, they can rust quite easily so you would need to be familiar with how to care for one.
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u/More-Competition-603 17d ago
Very good observation, which is precisely why i wanted a traditionally made one because the law states that as long as it's traditionally made and not kept in public, it's allowed, and i would be practising iaido with a teacher of the art, their aren't many people willing to teach iaido in london but their are a few im aware of the danger (training grip strength by the way) so ill limit the speed to what i think could help me practise at a good speed with minimal risks and the most control
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u/itomagoi 17d ago
There's a good number of BKA (British Kendo Association) iaido clubs in and around London, plus some others like battodo (more emphasis on test cutting so you'd actually need a live blade). Being a member of these permit you to possess an alloy iaito (cannot be sharpened) or a non-Japanese shinken (live blade).
If you are serious about learning iai, contact a club near you, ask to watch a practice, join, and talk to the sensei about what the requirements in terms of sword specifications are for that dojo.
Here the BKA's dojo listing. You can filter for iaido and region: https://www.britishkendoassociation.com/dojo-listings/
If you are serious about being a nihonto collector then I would suggest at minimum read up on how they are made and possibly join a nihonto appreciation group to learn more. You can start here:
Worst thing you can do is be a larper who has a fetish for Japanese swords, buy one and ruin it as a work of art or maiming someone or yourself due to a lack of knowledge.
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u/kevmofn 17d ago
A certified nihonto is at least 6k USD on the bottom end so you should just go train at the dojo with a bokken first if anything
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u/kloborgg 13d ago
I'm not sure where people are getting these numbers. You can pretty reliably find lower end antique Nihonto in koshirae for $2000-3000. If you're willing to get something in very rough condition with flaws you can find even cheaper options. With the exchange rate today, you can find legitimately very nice signed, papered, well polished swords for 5-6k, hardly "bottom end".
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u/kevmofn 13d ago
If you can find a NBTHK certified nihonto for 2-3k thats cool but I dont think I've seen anything like that
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u/kloborgg 13d ago
No offense, but where have you been looking? This sold for $2400 from Aoi Art this month: https://sword-auction.com/en/product/24666/as24412
But that's assuming we're sticking to NBTHK, which is a mark of quality and signature authenticity, but not a requirement for genuine Nihonto. There are full sized Nihonto katana in koshirae for sale from RVA right now for under $3k, and Tokyo Sword sold an antique katana for $600 last week.
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u/kevmofn 13d ago
Ohhh nice I didnāt know! OP needs a certified sword thatās why we are sticking with at least NBTHK. He canāt own a random sword in the UK.
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u/kloborgg 13d ago
I've never heard that you need NBTHK papers for it to be legal in the UK. Just that it's "traditionally made" before 1954, which applies to every Nihonto antique.
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u/grimdorktabletop 16d ago
Any good instructor worth his salt wouldn't let you loose with a live nihonto until you're at least a 3rd Dan, it's far too dangerous. Nothing wrong with you owning one if that's what you really want but you're looking at a starting price of around Ā£3000. You would also probably need to go to Japan to pick it up as the UK sword laws are an absolute joke. Nosyudo offer genuine nihonto for sale, or you can commission one yourself through Tozando.
I would recommend joining an iaido club, getting familiar with a good quality iaito (non-live zinc alloy practice blade) before investing in a genuine shinken. We get it, samurai swords are cool. But do it right or you're just another liability with a samurai fetish.
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u/More-Competition-603 16d ago
Your words sliced through the other comments, jk š thanks, though. Maybe it'd be better for me to wait a while since I'm not properly trained yet and can't afford one of such a price since it's also quite dangerous it wouldn't be worth it for me with my current level of knowledge on how it works (skill) to be equip with such a weapon.
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u/grimdorktabletop 16d ago
You'll thank yourself in the long run when you realise just how personal a nihonto is to each person. Learn your preferences and the reasons for them before committing to the real deal.
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u/KeyAgileC 17d ago edited 17d ago
Several manufacturers offer folded steel, but generally at a premium. Note that folding modern steels like 1060 carbon does nothing except for being slightly different aesthetically, as the folding process is for removing impurities that 1060 does not have.
I do not know what you mean by "certification". What would you want your sword to be certified as? The certification of authenticity is only for the real traditionally made katana, you will not get it unless you purchase one of those (again, this will cost you thousands).
If you want something genuinely japanese, and you want to practice, have you considered getting an iaito? That is within your budget, manufactured in Japan, and it's not the greatest idea to just start swinging a sharp sword around anyway. Nosyudo makes great iaito.
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u/DRSENYOS ę³åæē §ęŗęµ - RSR 17d ago
'Certification' implies criteria that most laypeople may not grasp. What would be your definition of 'certification'?
No offence meant, sincerely.
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u/lightskinloki 16d ago
You don't want an actual traditionally made katana. Get a honshu and call it a day. All your comments tall about price and usability and everything. Just get a honshu katana for $200 you want to use it for practice anyway you don't need a traditional hand made katana for that.
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u/StarLi2000 ę£ēµ±ćē”åē“ä¼č±äæ”ęµ/ZNIR 17d ago
You might find a tanto for less than $1000ā¦ most items longer than that for cheap wonāt be in good condition.
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u/mattyt808 17d ago
RVAKatana.com
We are a sword dealer who sells antiques and modern made production katana. Check out our inventory! We ship worldwide.
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u/amatuerscienceman 17d ago edited 17d ago
If you mean a functional sword, not a traditional made in Japan one, Sword Buyers Guide and Ronin katana both make good functional (but in no way traditional) swords.
You want to avoid a sword that is stainless steel, or has rat tail or welded tang. Those traits will result in a sword that can explode in your face when you swing at something( I've seen people lose an eye that way). These decorative swords are pretty much worthless
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u/More-Competition-603 17d ago
The traaditional part is needed because i live in england and the law states i need it traditionally made
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u/amatuerscienceman 17d ago
You'd need at least 5,000 quids (idk how UK money works), in addition to any customs fees.
What do you actually want it for? A British style longsword may be easier to acquire, that or an IAITO, which is made of unsharpenable alloy
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u/itomagoi 16d ago
FYI , the plural form of quid is quid. It's like "grand" to mean thousand(s) in American English.
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u/More-Competition-603 16d ago
I personally think the longsword would be heaver and longer, so I'd lose control very easily compared to a katana, which is more balanced, in weight and length.
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u/Orion_7578 17d ago
You need to give more specifics like how much you want to spend and if it's for show or use
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u/More-Competition-603 16d ago
It would be more for use, but for show when not in use, I'd practise it at home after learning a bit from a teacher.
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u/amatuerscienceman 16d ago
No legitimate sensei would let a beginner use a sharpened sword for iaido. You'd start with a wood sword, then use an iaito (unsharpenable alloy sword). Where I am, only yondan (4th degree black belt equivalent) are allowed to practice in dojo with a sharpened sword.
You are very likely to slice your hand open if you don't have much experience
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u/Orion_7578 16d ago
As most dojo won't let you use a sharp blade outside of cut training so if it for that I'd recommend a blade made out of spring steel/S7/S5 shock steel. If you want it for kata training then I recommend a dull blade with a bo-hi. I suggest going to a semi customized maker like Ryan sword, honbon, or even shadow dancer. You can pick out how long you want and the different pieces used to make it look cool/good for you ( just don't have them sharpen it and get the hishigami pro wrap upgrade so the ito it tight. I recommend using Ryan sword. I've have good luck with them and they have reasonable pricing on folded steel and customized swords. DM me if you have an questions. Also check out YouTube, some pretty good videos on using these builders
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u/Currawong 14d ago
Downvote me if you must, but honestly, if you can't write a properly grammatical sentence, you shouldn't be trying to handle what is effectively a 4ft razor blade. That's how people have severed tendons and gotten other terrible injuries.
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u/More-Competition-603 14d ago
There is no need to add the downvote part. You're just spotting out a mistake. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but i have been trying to improve my grammar, which i do know I'm not very good in, and that's fair what your saying but you're also saying i should really start by using a bokken or not start at all? as well as to be careful in how and what i do?
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u/Currawong 12d ago
You shouldn't be handling a live blade until you are already highly competent with both a bokken, and then, an iaito. That means, years and many hundreds of hours of expert training.
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u/Shigashinken 17d ago
This will give you an idea of what you're really looking for. The writer can put you in touch with people.
https://budobum.blogspot.com/2013/10/visiting-traditional-japanese-sword.html
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u/HungRottenMeat 16d ago
This is vague and I have to make a lot of assumptions to answer this. Since you say traditional and since the details are sparse, I presume youāre somewhat of a beginner.
Thus Iād recommend browsing Tozandoās site. They sell both antiques as well as newly made swords. Itās not the cheapest nor the most extensive collection and you can definitely get better finds somewhere else, but they are reliable and easy. The prices are also not totally out of line either.
The very least you should start your search with them or similar sites to get used to the prices.
If ātraditionalā means something different, you have a lot more options and price categories available. This might also be a lot easier if you could get help from your sensei.
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u/More-Competition-603 16d ago
I am a beginner. i've been interested in these kinds of weapons for a while now ( a few years). Thank you for the website.
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u/itomagoi 15d ago
You really need to know what you are getting yourself into before buying anything. A nihonto is an investment, not a toy, and the cost of one is in line with such. The UK ban on "samurai swords" is designed exactly to be gatekeeping. They don't want every other chav running around with one, so you either have to have the money to buy the real deal, or you practice a legitimate martial art in order to use a replica or a non-Japanese live blade.
There was another commenter who suggested that if you are buying a genuine nihonto that you go to Japan and bring it back with you. This makes absolute sense because if you mail order it, when it arrives at the UK it's going to get inspected by John/Jane-average-want-to-fark-off-to-the-pub HMRC inspector who can't tell a genuine nihonto worth several thousand pounds from a Ā£50 wall-hanger and doesn't understand the exemptions in the law, and may very well send it off to be destroyed before sending you a letter telling you "compu'a says no (cough)".
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u/More-Competition-603 15d ago
So you're saying i better either wait some time till i can afford the real deal, gain some knowledge, and go to japan. Honestly, that seems like my best option will do.
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u/itomagoi 15d ago
Well aside from everything that was said in this thread, I guess you can luck out and find something in at a boot sale that the owner is ignorant of the value of. My first kendo sensei has a story that his brother was given a wakizashi that was being used to prop up the door to a coal bin. It was returned to Japan and turned out to be a national treasure and now sits in a museum. Maybe go cozy up to some WWII vets who served in the Pacific Theatre.
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u/More-Competition-603 15d ago
Your joking right
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u/itomagoi 15d ago
You still seem to want to hear someone tell you that yeah there's a Ā£500 nihonto katana that isn't close to a hunk of scrap out there just waiting for you. Sorry mate, we've explained the reality and that's not how it works. I threw out one last idea for you to get something on the cheap locally. It's a long shot for sure with chances close to zero but still not zero. Anyway, do what you will with this information.
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u/More-Competition-603 15d ago
I don't want someone to tell me something that's not true, that's where you get me wrong. Thanks for the information.
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u/pepimanoli 15d ago
An actual katana made in Japan in the traditional way is going to cost thousands of pounds. Think at least 2500 pounds.
Check out this website to see what kinds of things are being made and sold. It's a well know manufacturer, Nosyudo.
https://nosyudo.jp/item/itemgenre/shinken/
There are more options, but you may need to think about what do you need the sword for. If it's only for decoration, you may consider a iaito instead. They are swords with no edge made from a particular zinc alloy, so they cannot be sharpened either and are used for matial arts, like iaido. They look very pretty and are made to a much higher standard than the usual shopping mall katanas. Of course, you will not be able to cut anything with a iaito. You can find iaitos in the Nosyudo website too, or look somewhere else, like Minosaka, or Tozando (Tozando is more of a retailer, while Nosyudo and Minosaka are manufacturers).
If you want a sword to cut things in your backyard, I would also discourage the use of a real katana, if only because using a beautiful work of art to cut watermelons is something I consider wasteful, (but if you have the money, do whatever you want). You may want to look instead for a foreign made katana like, Hanwei or Huawei. They are not made from the traditional tamahagane steel, but they are much cheaper and they would be fine to cut stuff without cutting yor wallet in the process. Check out the Hanwei site if you want to see the prices.
https://hanwei-sword-shop.com/japanese/buying-katana/practical-katana/
In any case, you may get more useful information at the katana subreddit.
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u/More-Competition-603 15d ago
Thanks for the group and website. It would not be in my best interest to spend money on slicing objects with a katana. I would like it partially for display as well as practising with a katana if that answers you.
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u/pepimanoli 15d ago
In that case, I would recommend you to buy a iaito, they are made for practicing with swords and looking pretty. Since they are sports equipment and not weapons, you will have less problems at customs, but you should look into your countries laws in any case.
You have basically 2 options, buying from a retailer, or buying from a manufacturer.
Buying from a manufacturer is going to be cheaper and more likely to get you something of better quality, but you will have to wait, probably for a long time if you want a bespoke item. I bought a iaito from Nosyudo in September and it finally arrived to my country a few days ago. Now I have to wait for the boys in customs to review the documents I sent them, but it should arrive soon.
Regardless of where you buy, you can buy a ready made sword, or a custom one, whre you will get to choose colour and type of wrapping around the handle, the decorations on the handle, the pattern on the blade, etc. Of course, doind that is going to be more expensive. My sword cost me about 540ā¬, including the shipping. Bear in mind that you will probably also have to pay taxes in you country too once the sword arrives.
Buying from a retailer like Tozando or Nine Circles is going to be more expensive, but items will arrive much quickly. It has also been said on this sub that Tozando brand iaitos are not as high quality as the ones you can buy from Minosaka or Nosyudo directly, but they are good enough regardless. They also sell swords from Minosaka and other manufacturers, and even their own brand is just a product made by assembling parts from others.
Both MInosaka and Nosyudo have people that speak english, so communicating with them by email is no issue.
All shops have a cahrt with heights of users and recommended lenghts. People on this sub usually like to have longer swords than recommended, but that's a mater of preference and it would be hard to know what you want without using swords for a while, so I'd go with the recommended lenghts.
There are usually 3 "weights" for iaito, lightweight, standard and heavy. Light is recommended for new people, but you can go with standard if you want. You can look for threads on this sub about choosing iaito, you may find useful information, but beware that people on this sub also love to give the ever so useful advice of "ask your sensei".
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u/keizaigakusha 16d ago
Skyjiro via Mountain Teachings, he has a few in stock right now. RVA-Katana has a good selection of options as well.
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u/Oogasan ZNKR | Muso Shinden Ryu | Battodo 16d ago
Are you a member of a martial arts organisation?
Because you are allowed to own a sharp sword as long as you have the proper paperwork.
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u/More-Competition-603 16d ago edited 16d ago
No, although that is part of the reason i have been looking for one to join, not part or working for.
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u/Oogasan ZNKR | Muso Shinden Ryu | Battodo 13d ago
You should join a dojo! Practising with sharp swords is very dangerous if you are not training under the proper supervision of an experienced teacher. If you tell us where in the UK you live, we could recommend a legitimate dojo for you to join. Just be aware that you will most likely not be allowed to use a sharp sword in the beginning.
Also, what's with the downvoting of my answer? You are most certainly allowed to own a sharp Japanese style sword in the UK if you have the proper insurance. I am a member of a dojo in London where almost everyone has their own sharp sword for practise, and most of them are not traditionally made or antiques.
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u/More-Competition-603 13d ago
I didn't downvote your answer as for where i live, it is northwest of london?
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u/Oogasan ZNKR | Muso Shinden Ryu | Battodo 12d ago
Someone did downvote haha, anyway.
There are a lot of good teachers in London! If you can go into London for training then the possibilities are great.
There are three dojos I would recommend:
Ryoshinkan - headed by Andy Watson and Harry Jones
Seishinkan - headed and founded by Chris Mansfield
Fudokan - headed and founded by John Evans
I have personally met and trained with all the above mentioned teachers.
Watson-sensei and Mansfield-sensei are highly respected teachers within the European Kendo Federation and have contributed immensely to the spread of iaido and jodo in Europe. In addition to the standardised iaido of the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei (Japanese kendo federation) they also teach the Muso Shinden Ryu koryu (old sword school).
Evans-sensei of the Fudokan does not teach the iaido of the ZNKR and EKF, but instead teaches Nakamura Ryu battodo which also is a Japanese sword art but with a heavy focus on tameshigiri (test cutting). Unless you are set on doing iaido, I can most highly recommend Fudokan and Evans-sensei.
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u/doveranddoubt 17d ago
Traditionally made and budget friendly don't really go together, with Japanese swords. You can buy good live blades for a reasonable price, but they are unlikely to be made in a traditional fashion... still good enough for practise, demonstration and/or tameshigiri. Tozando and ninecircles are two that ship shinken to most places...