r/gunpolitics • u/deplorableclinger • Aug 20 '24
America’s Gun Violence Crisis: Gun Control Or Second Amendment Repeal? NOWTTYG
The author of this article (a “Coordinator of Conflict Resolution” BA/BS degree programs and certificates at Portland State University) has apparently 1) never heard of the concept of “false choice,” 2) missed the day in class (which likely never happened in his school) where they covered that the Second Amendment is what is commonly called a “civil right,” a natural right written to limit government, not to limit “the people,” 3) never realized that guns can’t themselves be “violent” and 4) never thought through what might happen as a result of his little “BATNA” (In other words, he hasn’t figured out that he doesn’t want to see the other side’s BATNA).
“I would personally suggest the gun control groups develop a BATNA to help induce more good-faith negotiating. BATNA? Yes. It’s the best alternative to a negotiated agreement. It’s a term coined by William Ury and others at the Harvard Negotiation Project back in the late 1970s and first published in their little 1981 popular book, Getting to Yes. It simply means that, if you are trying to negotiate with anyone, it’s important to not only think about ‘what if these negotiations fail,’ but to let the others know what you will be forced to do in that case.”
“My choice of BATNA would be, ‘Look gun rights people, we want to negotiate common sense regulations with you. However, literally every time we pass such measures at the local or state level, you work to overcome the will of the people by challenging those commonsense measures in court, with your lawsuits, and it’s all based on the Second Amendment. No other country has anything like the Second Amendment and other countries that have dealt with this issue have passed commonsense restrictions, such as the assault weapon ban in Australia virtually immediately after a mass shooting there.’”
“Our BATNA is that we are going to stop all other gun control work and focus all our resources on a campaign to repeal the Second Amendment. We have a template for that; the amendment outlawing alcoholic beverages was passed and a decade later that Amendment was repealed. We are either going to get your commitment to allow our democratically produced local and state laws honored or we will end our negotiations and begin a massive campaign to overturn the Second Amendment.”
“Think this over and get back to us within the month or we begin our massive shift of people energy and resources toward our new goal. That’s how a BATNA can change the trajectory of a conflict. That’s how ‘unwinnable’ can flip to winnable.”
https://blackstarnews.com/americas-gun-violence-crisis-gun-control-or-second-amendment-repeal/
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Aug 20 '24
"Go ahead, repeal the 2A. I'll wait."
I love how they're finally beginning to realize that's the only truly legal way to implement their gun control utopia, and now they're threatening us with repealing the 2A to try and force our acceptance of a little bit of gun control out of fear.
The trick, is that they can't repeal the 2A, and they know it. Those threats are as empty as their heads.
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u/TellThemISaidHi Aug 20 '24
And, after failing to repeal the 2A, they'll write about repealing the Constitution.
They're finally saying the quiet part out loud.
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u/ShinningPeadIsAnti Aug 20 '24
They have been using that rationalization for the past decade. It always comes off as an empty threat from someone who is losing.
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u/GlawkInMahRari Aug 20 '24
2A is indeed absolute, anyone who wants to restrict any access to keep and bear arms is committing treason.
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u/Field_Sweeper Aug 20 '24 edited Aug 20 '24
There is no crisis for guns, only 44k a year die. Half are suicides and some are self defense. And the rest are cops killing criminals (sure some unjust but most are justified)
There is a heart disease crisis in the US, over 1 million die a year, maybe they should invest into banning McDonald's? Or some other health forward schooling etc.
But this weird focus on guns is astounding given the tiny fraction that they kill compared to the 10 reasons people die in the US... Guns aren't even on that top ten list.
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Aug 20 '24
You can keep a society fat, happy, and docile with enough McDonald's and TV reruns.
Guns make that society capable of having an option other than fat, happy, and docile.
That's the weird focus.
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u/THEDarkSpartian Aug 20 '24
And almost all of what remains after taking suicides out is gange violence. It's important to note that most of both gange and suicide deaths, a handgun is the tool of choice, so their obsession with rifles makes even less sense unless it's not about preventing death but rather about disarming the citizenry.
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u/Field_Sweeper Aug 20 '24
Yeah, and if not guns, they'd use something else. At least for suicides. Granted some argue that it's more the finality of a gun vs say pills that regret CAN save, or others finding can help but if you blow your brains out, there is no regret. However, you can't rob Peter to pay Paul. You can't say... Take away our cars because people drink and drive. Where's MADD at now? I never hear about them anymore. Pff
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u/THEDarkSpartian Aug 20 '24
I agree. The problems we're having with violence, and drunk driving by the way, aren't going to be solved with more laws. We're having cultural issues. Why are people WANTING to be violent? Why do people want to drive drunk? Why do people think that it's ok to shoot someone or drive shit faced? People don't feel connected to each other. It's ok to risk running over another person or to kill an innocent bystander in your turf war if you don't feel kinship with them. This is a problem throughout the West. It's the same reason why we have folks abusing the welfare system, refusing to have children, and killing themselves.
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u/Jaguar_556 Aug 20 '24
Nailed it. Also don’t forget the gang on gang violence that accounts for the rest. The number of truly innocent people getting murdered by firearms is statistically insignificant.
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u/TheAngelsCharlie Aug 20 '24
More people died from accidental poisoning, drug overdose, and I think even accidental drownings than ALL shootings the last time the CDC put the numbers out. Guns aren’t even in the top ten causes of death. And let’s not forget that Watts and her cronies had to loop in 18-19 year olds in order to make guns the “#1 killer of children in the US”, and the fact that half the people in the country accepted THAT baffles me to this day. So no, we don’t have a gun problem.
And also, good luck getting 38 states to repeal the 2nd. Hell, there are 29 states alone that have passed constitutional carry laws……….
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u/Field_Sweeper Aug 20 '24
Yeah, I actually had a discussion with a small pair (older) that were at a fair and had a sign anti 2a. I always love to open a dialog. Their point was about the kids. And you are right, I forgot that it includes 18 and 19 year olds, which legally aren't even kids any more. Also, it means that there are 16 to 19 year olds who are in gangs etc. And that is prob not the point of that statement. It's about the 5 or 7 year old that is at a friends house and finds a gun or something like that, Is I think the spirit of the debate on the "1 kids killer" So when you do take a lot of the excess bs out like 18 and 18, the number drops tremendously.
And then in the end it's the parents who left the gun unsecured etc.
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u/emperor000 Aug 20 '24
Half are suicides and some are self defense. And the rest are cops killing criminals (sure some unjust but most are justified)
I think you just made a mistake, but most of "the rest" are criminals killing criminals, not cops killing criminals.
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u/Field_Sweeper Aug 20 '24
I did simplify it for brevity's sake.
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u/emperor000 Aug 20 '24
Well, you left out the most important part!
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u/Field_Sweeper Aug 20 '24
Not really, it's all BS. 40k people, unjust or not is not a reason for this much anti gun... even if 40k people were slaughtered it's not enough to put this much into. Esp when there are millions dying to other shit. That is my point, they care NOTHING about actual lives as they say they do... If they did, they would try to do what they can to save more not 40k. But a million from Heart disease, better diet education programs or subsidized healthy foods etc. They care about CONTROL. Which is why the stats never matter to them. lol
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u/emperor000 Aug 21 '24
That's all true. It's just that if we are going to talk about sources of gun violence, or deaths, the largest source is criminals killing criminals.
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u/Vearo Aug 20 '24
Always dismiss their framing of 'common sense'.
In Canada they tried to ban the Ruger No. 1 as an 'Assault-Style Weapon'. Reason was that someone, somewhere made a custom version that would fire a cartridge over 10k joules. For that, ALL models were deemed appropriate for prohibition.
Canadian Anti groups to this day try to gaslight people into thinking that it would apply to just the custom models. They try to ban as much as they can with whatever justification they can find.
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u/thegrumpymechanic Aug 20 '24
Marlin 60, a semi-automatic Tube-fed .22lr. Per Washington state, Banned, "Semi-automatic assault rifle".
They are most definitely coming to take our guns, they just need the votes.
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u/idontagreewitu Aug 20 '24
Like when Obama's ATF banned the import of 7N6 5.45 ammunition because some gunsmith in Arizona created an AK-74 pistol. An, as in a single example, and that was used by the feds to reclassify the ammo as armor piercing pistol ammo.
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u/ColoradoQ2 Aug 20 '24
He looks just how I thought he would!
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u/THEDarkSpartian Aug 20 '24
I wanted to say "I disagree, I expected an oversized soybean with arms", but then I saw his picture and have to agree with you.
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u/DamianRork Aug 20 '24
*Thug violence
We need strict thug control to stop thug violence.
Maybe “Thug free zone” signs as well, for the people that ‘feel’ signs are effective.
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u/TFGator1983 Aug 20 '24 edited Aug 20 '24
We disagree with the underlying premise that your proposed regulations are “common sense” or effective and we have data to back it up. Our position is that the second amendment is a fundamental civil right. The fact that no other countries have the second amendment is because of the manner in which our country was founded and is one of the differentiating factors that makes this country great. Our position is also that the second amendment is a civil right no more repealable than the 1st, 4th, 5th, 14th, etc. Just because you don’t value a right does not make it not valuable or any less a right. Your disingenuous attempt to reframe your attempt to violate civil rights is no better than attempts by whites to keep blacks from enjoying civil rights during our country’s history. And oh by the way, the only reason whites were able to do that is because one of the civil rights they kept from them was the right to keep and bear arms. So no, thank you, we will not be “negotiating” to keep what of our civil right to keep and bear arms that we have left. No more than we expect you to negotiate for your right to express that you don’t like this civil right.
So back the fuck off. That is our alternative. Our BATNA to that should you choose to go the ban route is “pound sand”. We will keep our guns. You won’t know about them, but they will be there while less law abiding folks still do whatever they please. And should you decide to try to take them? Our BATNA will become fuck around and find out.
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u/TheRedCelt Aug 20 '24
Unfortunately, there’s no such thing as “common sense“ when it comes to the gun control debate. There are logical arguments, and there are logical fallacies. The majority of the arguments on the gun control side fall into the latter category. The things they decree as “common sense” often fall apart under logical scrutiny. For example, magazine capacity limits. No one knows how many rounds will actually be required to defend a person in a life-threatening situation. an attack by multiple assailants is becoming more and more common, especially in home invasions. The last I checked, the hit ratio for police officers in a gunfight is six misses to one hit. (Now, this is atrocious, and everyone should be better trained than that, especially police officers. However, trying to present facts the way they are, this is the best ratio to use.) If a person in a life threatening situation is forced to only rely on a 10 round magazine , this statistical ratio only allows them to hit one attacker. As many police officers and combat veterans will tell you, one hit is not always enough to stop or even deter an attacker, particularly one on drugs. If you are in a multiple home invader situation, there is the potential for you to have emptied your magazine, only hit one attacker, and merely pissed him off. Nobody wants to be in that situation. Therefore, despite the claims on the gun control side, magazine capacity restrictions are NOT a common sense argument. They are a logical fallacy, as are many other “common sense” gun control measures. I could give more examples, but this is already a long comment, and I have two more points.
The first is that many gun control measures, particularly the ones recently defeated in the court, we’re not passed by appointed legislature. They were approved by a bureaucratic regulatory agency. This is the main reason the measures have been defeated in the courts. Regulatory agencies do not have the constitutional authority to write new laws.
The last point that I wanted to make is that a repeal of the second amendment is extremely tall order. Most people are not big fans of the idea. Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, recently made a large push for a 28th amendment that would severely limit the second amendment. He has not been able to rally much support outside of fringe groups. Not only that, but if by some miracle you were to get 2/3 of the states to agree to a repeal of the second amendment (a monumental task given that nearly 3/5 of the states have some sort of permit-less carry law in place) You would still have to convince American gun owners to give up their firearms without a fight. Remember, the attempt to forcibly confiscate arms, was the reason for the first battle of the Revolutionary War. Also remember that the constitution does not grant rights. It merely protects human rights from government intrusion. This means that many people would be willing to fight to protect their rights from a government willing to infringe upon them. It is highly unlikely that an attempt to remove American guns will be accomplished without a fight, ideologically, culturally, legally, and VERY literally.
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u/Mr_E_Monkey Aug 20 '24
it’s important to not only think about ‘what if these negotiations fail,’ but to let the others know what you will be forced to do in that case.
You really want to go down that road, Tom?
Our BATNA is that we are going to stop all other gun control work and focus all our resources on a campaign to repeal the Second Amendment.
Stop all other gun control work? That sounds like a win to me.
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u/ureathrafranklin1 Aug 20 '24
They used prohibition as an example of a success story that their 2A abolition will emulate….?
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u/Competitive-Bit5659 Aug 20 '24
That’s possibly the dumbest argument I’ve ever heard. He’s going to threaten us that if we don’t roll over and willingly give up our gun rights he’s going to start a different process to do the same thing but one that has pretty much no chance of happening? Riiiiight. You gonna have a unicorn writing the commercials for you, buddy?
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u/AlphaTangoFoxtrt Totally not ATF Aug 20 '24 edited Aug 20 '24
This is what Democrats want. They are going mask-off and straight up calling for a repeal of the 2a. It's not about "common sense" gun laws. It's not about "Safety". You will not be able to keep your 1911, your deer rifle, your duck gun.
If you vote Democrat, you are voting to repeal the 2A. That is EXPLICITLY their end-goal. You can not vote Democrat and be pro-2A.
BUHT DRUMPF! BUHT REPUBLIKKANS!!!!
Shut the fuck up and stop deflecting. I didn't say you had to vote Republican, You don't, I don't. Third parties exist.
But if you vote for the Democrats, you are voting for sweeping gun bans.
Kamala has openly called for confiscation of the most common rifles in the US. And no calling it a "mandatory buyback" instead doesn't mean it's not a confiscation, hence the whole "Mandatory" part.
When she said:
Now some news outlets are saying she's "Walked that back" but I don't believe it for a second.
If you vote for Kamala, you're voting for confiscation, you're against the 2A, simple as.
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u/Brufar_308 Aug 20 '24
I mean, Portland, so not surprised at their point of view. Not really interested in any of the ridiculous nonsense that comes out of that city. After the CHAZ and CHOP demonstrations, there is nothing that city can tell me about reducing violence that is worth listening to.
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Aug 20 '24
I mean agreed, but you’re thinking of Seattle
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u/Brufar_308 Aug 20 '24
Crap tried to verify by doing a search ‘chop Portland’ and it came right up. guess I should have looked in a little deeper into the returned result.
Win some, lose some.
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u/Shamrock_shakerhood Aug 20 '24
Actually no, Portland had a similar autonomous zone. Here is a link to an article describing the whole thing. Worst part is the majority of the residents you talk to either don’t remember this or don’t even care. The article really shows why we need to be able to defend ourselves against tyranny. The local police did nothing to help the neighbors of this red house.
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Aug 21 '24
Actually yes, “CHAZ” or “CHOP” refers to “Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone” and “Capitol Hill Occupied Place(?),” meaning the comment referring to such refers to Seattle and not Portland. Portland indeed had their own occupied bull shit, but not what was being referred to here (or they seemed confused between the two), but they are indeed different
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u/homelesstwinky Aug 20 '24
My favorite part is when they formed their own patrols and then shot a kid just like the cops they hate
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u/Brufar_308 Aug 20 '24
Then filmed themselves removing all the evidence from the scene. Picked up all the loose casings, etc. team effort on that one.
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u/United-Advertising67 Aug 20 '24
a “Coordinator of Conflict Resolution” BA/BS degree programs and certificates at Portland State University
So a useless person who now expects you to comp their student loan they took out to learn how to be useless.
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u/YouArentReallyThere Aug 20 '24
There will be zero negotiations. There ya’ go, fruitcake. Now, leave.
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u/MagUnit76 Aug 20 '24
Every time they say "commonsense", I immediately ignore the rest of the screed. It's never commonsense.
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u/Abuck59 Aug 20 '24
Said it a MILLION times , “if you’re not ENFORCING existing laws enough how the hell is another new law gonna work ?”
It’s a pretty simple solution that these clowns continue to skirt. ENFORCING EXISTING laws would go a long way.
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u/terrrastar Aug 20 '24
“The will of the people” my entire ass, half the country literally doesn’t give a fuck
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u/unscrew9746 Aug 20 '24
Yes, please abandon all your gun control efforts (wonder why they courts overterm them?) and focus your efforts on getting 38 states to retify repealing the 2nd Amemndment, even if you can get quorem in congress (none of which are possble.)
Let them spin their retarded wheels.
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u/emperor000 Aug 20 '24
other countries that have dealt with this issue
Are we just ignoring the fact that actually no countries have actually dealt with this issue...? That's just a blatantly false statement.
Other than that, LOL, I feel embarrassed for this person:
That’s how ‘unwinnable’ can flip to winnable.”
Yikes.
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u/waywardcowboy Aug 20 '24
I'm guessing this genius has never given my BATNA any consideration. lol
One word comes to mind: Bloodbath
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u/ospfpacket Aug 21 '24
I’m coming to confiscate your car, because of some asshole in Maryland got drunk and ran over 3 people.
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u/NoLeg6104 Aug 21 '24
A few points. The Constitution doesn't grant us rights, it protects rights we already have. Remove the protections and that just means the people will have to go to war with their government to protect the rights.
Second, the only "common sense" gun laws would be removal of all restrictions of what the people can obtain, federal constitutional carry and federal stand your ground and castle protections for self defense situations.
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u/Cwc2413 Aug 20 '24
Neither. How about we focus on self responsibility and mental health. Why are we seeing these issues? It’s not a gun, it a person doing this. So how about we cut the crap and deal with the real problem.
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u/ShinningPeadIsAnti Aug 20 '24
What does that acronym actually mean?
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u/docduracoat Aug 20 '24
Best alternative to a negotiated agreement. It usually refers to what would happen if you refused to negotiate and they just go ahead and do the worst possible thing they can possibly do. as if you and your position have no meaning .
Of course it can backfire, because now you go ahead and do the worst thing you can possibly do .
So they try to repeal the second amendment, which is, of course, impossible . You go ahead and get national concealed carry reciprocity and silencers removed from the NFA . Both of which are possible if Trump wins, and the Republicans get majority in the house and Senate .
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u/ediotsavant Aug 21 '24
Defensive gun use stops between 2.5 Million and 100,000 robberies, rapes, murders, and other violent crimes a year.
Guns are used to kill about 20K people a year. Mind you, these numbers include killings done by police officers and regular citizens defending themselves from criminals.
Guns are a net positive in American society.
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u/pdcGhost Aug 21 '24
my biggest issue with "Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement", is That when you research it, all of the big gun legislation have been compromises with a understanding that the issue is "done" but yet gun controller log it under "This is the first step" and push for another gun control notch. this door in the face persuasion is not going to work. I'll start to be more willing to work with you on gun control if you are willing to make concessions. Hot take, but if they conceded assault weapons, suppressors, and CCW, I would concede Red Flags (needs more more due process, but in theory), Magazine restrictions, and training requirement. Only issue is gun controller do not have a record of negotiating in good faith.
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u/insanityisinherit Aug 20 '24
2A isn't specific to guns. It's specific to self defense. Don't ever allow that to be taken.
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Aug 20 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/gunpolitics-ModTeam Aug 20 '24
Your post was removed for violating the subreddit rules. Read the rules.
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u/Bschmabo Aug 22 '24
If they could repeal the 2nd Amendment, they would just do it. But they don’t have anywhere near the 38 states needed to amend the Constitution, so their purported “BATNA” threat is completely imaginary. The true BATNA is that the 2nd Amendment remains and is used to invalidate unconstitutional infringements. So what incentive do gun rights advocates have to negotiate?
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u/dyslexicnarcan Aug 20 '24
The 2nd amendment is clear, everyone I know is a responsible gun owner, why don't we focus on this causes of these terrible incidents instead, mental health is an issue all over.