r/geography • u/Glockass • Oct 03 '24
On Friday 21st March 2025 at 02:50 UTC the sun will finally set on the British "Empire" Discussion
It was announced today that the UK will transfer sovereignty of the British Indian Ocean Territory to Mauritius. Assuming this happens before March, this means when the sun sets on the Pitcairn Islands (18:50 Local time: UTC-8, 02:50 London time: UTC), the sun will have set on all British territory for the first time in over 200 years.
This the sunlight at that time is shown on the map above, when the sun is set on Pitcairn, there's still around an hour until it rises in Akrotiri and Dhekelia, meanwhile as it's just after the spring equinox, the sun will have set over the south pole beginning it's 6 month long night, and therefore setting on British Antarctic Territory.
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u/toasterb Oct 03 '24
For reference, here's a map of the current British Overseas Territories
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u/pinkocatgirl Oct 04 '24
They may still technically claim territory in Antartica, but per the international Antarctic treaty, there are officially no recognized territorial claims in Antarctica.
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u/thrw__away Oct 04 '24
Yep, this is correct. Nothing can be done to assert or deny any claims made so their claim is just as valid as mine
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u/marpocky Oct 04 '24
their claim is just as valid as mine
I'd say they have a fair bit more ability to defend their claim than you do.
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u/yakult_on_tiddy Oct 04 '24
Britain's claim will be challenged and denied by everyone else, while no one will give a shit a out OP's claim. So technically OP will have more of an "uncontested" claim
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u/mrhumphries75 Oct 04 '24
We don't know who has a bigger navy, though. Bold of you to assume it's the Brits and not this guy
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u/Takomay Oct 04 '24
Except the treaty also stipulates no one, including you, can make any new claims. Unless you Happen to represent the US or Russian governments.
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u/Striking_Recover_194 Oct 03 '24
British Indian ocean territory and Pitcairn Islands won’t be covered according to OPs map?
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u/toasterb Oct 03 '24
That's what OP's post is about. They're giving up that territory, so now it can all fit in one night cycle.
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u/grumpsaboy Oct 03 '24
God damn it, it was supposed to be in 5,000 years time when some random solar eclipse was going to perfectly align with an island
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Oct 04 '24
[deleted]
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u/LogicalReasoning1 Oct 04 '24
The islands are projected to be underwater within like 50-100yrs anyway, so we’d have had to find some new nearby rock to claim
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u/grumpsaboy Oct 04 '24
Might be possible. Think we could also just ask beloved Nepal for 3cm of some random mountain nobody likes
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u/mukpocxemaa Oct 03 '24
!remindme 5months
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u/Stock-Intention7731 Oct 04 '24
Quick someone lease the Brits one square kilometre of land on the same longitude
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u/Possible_Head_1269 Oct 03 '24
so that means the chagossians win their sovereignty dispute?
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u/SalSomer Oct 03 '24
Kinda. Mauritius will start a resettlement program on the other islands, but Diego Garcia will still be the site of a US base. Some Chagossians are also angry that they were never given a seat at the table during the negotiations between the UK and Mauritius.
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u/Master_Elderberry275 Oct 03 '24
Do we know if Mauritius will gain sovereignty over Diego Garcia or will it be a Cyprus-style situation with Sovereign Base Areas?
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u/cuccir Oct 03 '24
More like Guantanamo. Sovereignty will be with Mauritius but the UK and US military will essentially be able to do what they want on their bases.
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u/Master_Elderberry275 Oct 04 '24
Yes, this is what makes me uneasy about this settlement with Mauritius. We've given them sovereignty of Diego Garcia at least in name only. The core principle of sovereignty is that a country should be able to do what its people want within its borders (as long as international law is respected), but I doubt the US military would be very happy if, for instance, Mauritius accepted money from China to put up telecoms equipment on the Chagos Islands that could reach the US base or something like that.
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u/SalSomer Oct 03 '24
I don’t know. There’s apparently a deal in place for the base to be there for 99 years, but I believe the island will nominally be placed under Mauritian sovereignty?
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u/linmanfu Oct 04 '24 edited Oct 04 '24
Correct,
MauritaniaMauritius will have sovereignty. So it's not like the Cyprus SBAs.41
u/Ok-Ad-6480 Oct 04 '24
I know you meant Mauritius but the idea of the island being randomly transferred to Mauritania is so funny to me
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u/Downfall722 Oct 04 '24
The island won’t exist in 99 years…
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u/SafetyNoodle Oct 04 '24
The island of Diego Garcia can be built up higher. It'll be crazy expensive but the US military will pay for it.
All those islands normal folks want to move back to though...
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u/Fierytoadfriend Oct 03 '24
No, it's not being handed back to the Chagossians, but to Mauritius. It's just passing the problem on to another state rather than solving the issue.
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u/waveuponwave Oct 04 '24
There are less than 10k Chagossians and most live in Mauritius (+ some on the Seychelles and in the UK) and it's unclear how many will actually want to return now that they have the chance
They should have been involved in the process, but I don't think full sovereignty is realistic at this point
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u/QueensGambit90 Oct 04 '24
What was the problem in the first place?
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u/Tuguar Oct 04 '24
Britain basically kicked out all of Chagos' native population to "secure" US airbase Diego Garcia, which they were leasing land for
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u/Puzzleheaded-Dingo39 Oct 04 '24
The exile fo the chagossians was horrible just the same, but to be factual, they were not 'natives'. The population kicked out at the time were descendants of slaves brought to the islands one or two generations before. There were no 'native' population.
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u/Tuguar Oct 04 '24
I mean, every native population came from somewhere at some point
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u/Puzzleheaded-Dingo39 Oct 04 '24
In this particular context we are specifically talking about indigenous populations. The displaced chagossians were not 'indigenous' to the islands. This often gets confused when talking about this subject. As i said, ultimately it doesn't change the historical wrongs done to them, but it is a relevant bit of information when we get into their wider claims regarding rights and self-determination, etc.
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u/gaelicsteak Oct 04 '24
Does Mauritius have more interest in giving sovereignty back to Chagossians at least?
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u/SafetyNoodle Oct 04 '24
The Chagossians never had sovereignty, but from my understanding they would be allowed to resettle.
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u/Siggi_Starduust Oct 04 '24
The irony is that while the sun never set on the British Empire, it very rarely shines on the British Isles.
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u/Teesside-Tyrant Oct 04 '24
How dare you! We had two whole hours of sun here this year.Two!
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u/Siggi_Starduust Oct 04 '24
That wasn’t the sun, that was just a TWOCed car burning on the A19 flyover
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u/MysticSquiddy Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
This isn't going to go down well for labour. Even if it's small, ceding territory held for this long is going to be used against them for their entire term.
I'm happy that the issue's been sorted, probably a good move in terms of diplomacy.
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u/RFB-CACN Oct 04 '24
I mean Labour’s opening move when they first came to power in the aftermath of WW2 was withdrawing from India as quickly as possible, that’s kinda what they’re known for and it’s usually pretty irrelevant electorally.
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u/Tsansome Oct 04 '24
I dont think most people think about Indian decolonisation (which, lets be honest, had been written on the wall for a long time by this point, especially after home rule in Ireland) when they think of Labour.
If anything, people remember the Clement Attlee government for the NHS and the beginning of the welfare state.
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u/My_useless_alt Oct 04 '24
And also the town and country planning act, which is still causing problems today and needs to be repealed or seriously amended
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u/Hayzeus_sucks_cock Oct 03 '24
It was started by the Conservatives and Labour are just completing it.
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u/elemental_pork Oct 04 '24
If you're a hardcore nationalist who cares about losing a couple miles of land far away in the ocean, not that they would ever have known about it, then you're still a hardcore nationalist who would vote right-wing anyway.
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u/Starwarsnerd91 Oct 03 '24
So France should be giving up their Colonial ventures too right? It bugs me that the UK is always seen as the boogeyman of the Colonial era when defacto every European Great Power was at it.
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u/Cptn_Melvin_Seahorse Oct 04 '24
post on a French language forum and see what they say.
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u/AwfulUsername123 Oct 04 '24 edited Oct 04 '24
Well, the French people on the English internet never shut up about how much they hate Americans and Brits.
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Oct 03 '24
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u/Starwarsnerd91 Oct 03 '24
It's really not. This move allows China to gain influence with Mauritius. Loans will be secured for Chinese infrastructure no doubt. The UK is trying to bargain for soft power by giving up legitimate Sovereignty. Absolutely bonkers. The only winner here is America.
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Oct 03 '24
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u/SmoothSoup Oct 04 '24
Because they expelled thousands of people from their homes to get these islands and have now decided letting them return was the morally correct thing to do? To me, this seems like a prime example of doing the right thing instead of the popular thing
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u/picastchio Oct 04 '24
They didn't kill the natives like other new lands, but still expelled them to Mauritius. It's more of a shameful history than patriotism if people are constantly calling you about it.
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u/ParkingLong7436 Oct 04 '24
it’s also kind of cool and patriotic
Sorry dude, but this is by far the most braindead defense for colonialism I ever heard. What the fuck?
A truly patriotic person would feel shame for such history of their country and try to revert it.
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u/yakult_on_tiddy Oct 04 '24
It's more a reminder of subjugation of other countries UK wants to do business and have friendly relations with. Time to do away with patriotism founded on violence.
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u/badmintonguy7 Oct 03 '24
What with the Pictarian ?
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u/Winterteal Oct 03 '24
I think you mean the Pitcairn Islands, which is in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and is a British overseas territory. While it only had like 40 people living there, I think it means the assertion by Op is false…
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u/Glockass Oct 03 '24
Very close. Sunset on Oeno Island, the most western of the Pitcairns, is 18:53 local (20th March)/02:53 UTC (21st March). Meanwhile sunrise in Dhekelia, eastern most British Territory exlc. BIOT, is 05:46 local/03:46 UTC (21st March).
Therefore there will be a period of 53 minutes after the sun has set on Pitcairn, but before the sun has risen on Dhekelia.
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u/Rare-Butterfly-7720 Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
If we count EEZ's (techniquely not ownership of country but still ownership over resources, right to build artificial islands there etc.) is it still the case that it never sets or just within a few minutes? (https://www.marineregions.org/eezmapper.php) map of EEZ's worldwide (https://sovereignlimits.com/boundaries/cyprus-israel-maritime, http://geosite.jankrogh.com/enklaver/cyprus/dhekelia_ahk.html) map of dhekelia's eastern most point in territorialwaters because it doesnt have an EEZ I presume). Really interesting how close it gets.
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u/Glockass Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 10 '24
If we count EEZ, that will extend 200nm west. As Pitcairn is near the equator this roughly lines up roughly 3.3° further west (60nm per degree). For each degree of longitude, you move 4 minutes in solar time (24hrs/360°). Thus sunset would be around 13min 20s later. Meanwhile Akrotiri and Dhekelia claims only extend to land, so they can't really go much further. So this would delay sunset to 03:06 UTC while leaving sunrise the same, leaving 40 min of darkness. So the sun would still set.
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u/Rare-Butterfly-7720 Oct 04 '24
Aww will be a sad day for the uk. Btw the faraway pitcairn islands does in fact border another EEZ in the west (french polenesia .... France), making is not 200NM in a straight latitude line from Oeno island (that's why I gave the map). And Dhekelia's and Akrotiti's claim got 3 nautical miles (could be extended to 12 nautical miles by the UK unilaterally) of sovereign territorial sea from the base itself (thats why I gave those maps again :( ). I presume this is the case, so they can function independently without suddenly getting a sort of west-Berlin blockade situation or having to ask permission for secret military flights through the republic cyprus. All of this doesnt give another y/n answer for the "does the sun never set in the british empire?" calculation btw.
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u/darthveda Oct 03 '24
This includes Diego Garcia?
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u/Glockass Oct 03 '24
Yes, Diego Garcia is the largest and most southernly island of the British Indian Ocean Territory.
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u/LiamGovender02 Oct 03 '24
Yes, Though military will remain open, as Mauritius agreed to lease the land for 99 years.
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u/darthveda Oct 04 '24
Leaving those indigenous tribes displaced and never to return.
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u/AnnualWerewolf9804 Oct 04 '24
There weren’t indigenous tribes to begin with. The locals were descendants of slaves and others, brought over by the British and French.
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u/LiamGovender02 Oct 04 '24
Mauritius has said they will resettle the Chagossians in the other islands of the Archipelago, but Diego Garcia will remain depopulated. It's still a tragedy, but it's the best the Chagossians can get when going against an actual superpower. At least they can live in their archipelago again.
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u/Harvestman-man Oct 04 '24
The Chagossians will be able to resettle all of the islands except Diego Garcia; it’s far more than the British allowed previously.
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u/LegitimateCompote377 Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
Because in the deal it was agreed that the US would still control their military base, I pretty much say that while it will technically be part of Mauritius de jure, de facto it’s pretty much owned by the US and Britain and there is a likely zero percentage chance Chagos islanders will ever be allowed to return.
Overall only the US won this deal, by securing a base in a land they never owned despite there being huge calls to end it.
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u/paddenice Oct 03 '24
The base’s lease was up in 2030’s and now they just extended it by another 80ish years. You’re absolutely spot on with the US being the only winner here.
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u/pton12 Oct 04 '24
I’ve never been so proud to be an American in my entire life 🇺🇸🥲 (it’s only been a year since I became one)
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u/Ragnar3636 Oct 03 '24
Is the commonwealth considered apart of the empire? Since places like Canada, Australia, and New Zealand still follow the crown?
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u/Liam_021996 Oct 03 '24
No, they're completely sovereign and independent nations that come under the realm of the British royal family
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u/linmanfu Oct 04 '24
They are known as the Commonwealth Realm*s*, plural.
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u/LegsideLarry Oct 04 '24
Yep, they are separate realms of separate monarchs. Realm would imply one monarchy.
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u/Constant_Of_Morality Oct 04 '24
No, The Commonwealth Realms means that there are 15 Realms in the Commonwealth which have King Charles as Head of State.
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u/Black-House Oct 04 '24
Hello. King Charles is the sovereign, same as UK. The union jack takes up a 1/4 of the flag of Oz, NZ.
I think it's an arbitrary distinction between Westminster and Buckingham Palace as to what constitutes the British Empire.
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u/EvieGHJ Oct 03 '24
That would be too easy. As far as I can see the sun never even set on just the Canadian provinces and Australian states!
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u/miclugo Oct 04 '24
Also New Zealand is very nearly antipodal to the UK, so at almost all times the sun is up in one or the other.
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u/yourrabbithadwritten Oct 07 '24
North Mole, Gibraltar is exactly antipodal to Te Arai Beach, New Zealand.
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u/miclugo Oct 07 '24
Good catch there - I was thinking that Great Britain proper was a bit too far north but didn’t think of Gibraltar.
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u/yourrabbithadwritten Oct 07 '24
My favorite part of this fun fact is that the exact specific part of Gibraltar actually matters - Gibraltar is pretty tiny but it turns out that its antipodes end up pretty much exactly on the shore and most of them are just a little bit off coast.
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u/spare_nomad91 Oct 04 '24
What about Diego Garcia?
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u/werewolf_nr Oct 04 '24
Owned by Mauritius, leased to the US and UK. Basically the same as Guantanamo bay.
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u/Puzzled-Dust-7818 Oct 04 '24
I don’t know why, but this makes me kind of sad in a way that’s hard to explain. 😔
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u/R0ckandr0ll_318 Oct 04 '24
Technically not quite yet as the British will retain the military base at Diageo Garcia
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u/7788d Oct 04 '24
But sunrise in Dhekelia will be at 5:47 local time which is UTC+3, which makes it 2:47 UTC, 3 mins before it sets in Pitcairn, unless I'm missing something?
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u/Twvii Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 04 '24
I know this is most likely incorrect, but personally, I consider the commonwealth realms as the continuing extension of the British Empire, even if the British don't hold any real power.
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u/AnnualWerewolf9804 Oct 04 '24
It’s not really something up for consideration, but you do you
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u/ExoticMangoz Oct 04 '24
Although not administered by the UK, they do have the same heads of state. So you could say “the sun never sets on Charles III territory”
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u/Sahaal_17 Oct 04 '24
Habsburg Empire style. If Austria and Spain were both considered part of the Habsburg Empire despite being separate states, then the commonwealth could be considered the "Winsor Empire".
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u/Chapea12 Oct 03 '24
I definitely thought this was a metaphor, but it’s cool to find out it’s real and ending
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u/Oddelbo Oct 03 '24
This will be the first time since when?
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u/josephb8910 Oct 03 '24
I tried figuring this out but history can be complicated as, especially back in the 1700's, what constituted as 'British Territory' was not a clear cut answer, some could say land that we have settled, others may not count a posession until it is formally absorbed (i.e. proclaimed a territory/colony of which Britian has soverignty over under British law) once you have that figured out then try and figure out what exact date and time the sun was set over the entire empire.
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u/Colin286 Oct 04 '24
So what happens if they transfer it AFTER March? Wouldn’t it still set since the South Pole has a 6 month night?
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u/Sanfranciscoma Oct 04 '24
I thought the British Indian Ocean Territory had a couple more islands included, besides Chagos. Aren't there 2 or islands that remained under British control from the Seychelles?
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u/SeiriusPolaris Oct 04 '24
In the same way the sun still shines on the Roman Empire every day?
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u/mon10egro Oct 04 '24
Now the biggest concern is what will happen to thousands of websites with .IO domain?
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u/matt_perigee Oct 05 '24
As best as I can tell, the last sunset on British territory was the night of January 17th, 1788. The next day, Captain Arthur Phillip founded a penal colony in Australia. Before that, all British territories were in Canada and India, and fell under darkness during the northern hemisphere winter.
So RIP sunny british empire January 18th, 1788 - March 21st, 2025
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u/Glockass Oct 20 '24
I've now became the source for a news article being referenced alongside the foreign secretary. As well as for several YouTube videos such as ibx2cat's video or Emperor tigerstar's. Goes without saying, I didn't expect this post to garner as much attention as it did, glad yous enjoyed.
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u/Traditional_Wheel571 Oct 29 '24
As an Anglophile, I cry with pain and sadness for what I will forever miss
(For context I have never been to the UK)
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u/manna5115 Oct 03 '24
Not entirely correct. The British still own the base on lease for another 99 years, though I don't know if that's considered their territory like Akrotiri and Dhekelia
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u/Glockass Oct 03 '24 edited Oct 03 '24
The military base is remaining correct, but it'll now be in a foreign country. The UK and US will still operate the base, but it won't be a UK Territory anymore, instead a case of extraterritoriality like embassies or most other overseas military bases.
Akrotiri and Dhekelia for their part are fully fledged overseas territories, the UK holds exclusive jurisdiction there.
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u/DaveGlenv Oct 03 '24
The Brits still have Ascension Island, St Helena, Bermuda (I think) and Tristan da Cunha in the Atlantic (plus South Georgia, south shetlands, falklands) and Pitcairn in the pacific. Down but not out!
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u/badmintonguy7 Oct 03 '24
There would be still bases on Diego Garcia that work as same as Akroiti and dhekelia
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u/mikey_tr1 Oct 04 '24
One can say that Commonwealth Realms are still part of the British Empire, and sun still doesn't set on it.
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u/x_rabidsquirrel Oct 04 '24
Um…Diego Garcia is British and in the Indian Ocean and will be in daylight
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u/iamnogoodatthis Oct 04 '24
Maybe read the first sentence of the post. Diego Garcia is part of BIOT.
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u/samsunyte Oct 03 '24
This is the cool random content I’m subscribed to this sub for. I didn’t even know the saying still held. I thought it was just something they used to say during the colonialism era.
Side question, is this currently true for any other country? I figured maybe France with all of its territories across the globe?