r/engineering • u/NIST_Report • Sep 09 '16

[European Physical Society] 15 years later: on the physics of high-rise building collapses [ARTICLE]

http://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/abs/2016/04/epn2016474p21/epn2016474p21.html

9 Upvotes

85% Upvoted

u/raoulduke25 Structural P.E. Sep 09 '16

Removed as per rule nine (9).

37

u/NIST_Report Sep 09 '16

Did you just censor an article written by a major engineering and physics magazine?

You may not be from Europe, but EPS is a prominent and credible source...deleting this very troubling.

Removed as per rule nine (9).

Rule 9 is shameful. What kind of forum is this when you censor legitimate sources of science?

I am very disappointed in this decision -- /r/engineering isn't allowed to talk about the 3 worst structural failures in history. Why?

39

u/raoulduke25 Structural P.E. Sep 09 '16 edited Feb 27 '17

Did you just censor an article written by a major engineering and physics magazine?

No, I removed a post that covers a topic that has been blacklisted for years from this forum for reasons unrelated to the topic itself.

You may not be from Europe, but EPS is a prominent and credible source...deleting this very troubling.

Drop the faux outrage and drama. Nobody is saying that your source isn't credible. Nobody is saying that Europe doesn't produce good scientists, engineers, or scholarly research.

Rule 9 is shameful. What kind of forum is this when you censor legitimate sources of science?

That rule has nothing to do with the engineering aspects of 9/11 and everything to do with how people (including yourself - in this very post no less) behave when this topic is brought up. We blacklisted the topic because in every single post, without exception, the threads degenerate into ad hominem attacks from both sides of the argument, whilst aspects pertinent to engineering are lost by the wayside.

You can't go fifteen minutes before each side is calling the other names or just being generally uncivil. Moderation reports go through the roof and it's a nightmare to handle from a moderation standpoint. Would I welcome discussion of the issue? Absolutely. But civil discussion never occurs. And when comments start getting reported (as always happens) moderators are left with the absurd task of removing more than half of the comments for violating rule seven (7). And what does this meet with? Why, more accusations of censorship! We literally can't win on this topic, no matter how hard we try. Hence, the topic is blacklisted.

Already here you are accusing us of "censorship". Just yesterday we had a guy spamming our modmail, claiming that we were pissing on the graves of the victims because we won't host the unbelievably vitriolic threads that inevitably ensue in these discussions. If we allow these posts, those who disagree with you accuse us of allowing pseudo-science and conspiracy theories in our posts. We literally can't win no matter what we do.

/r/engineering isn't allowed to talk about the 3 worst structural failures in history. Why?

I think I've explained exactly why above. It's not what I want at all; in an ideal world, these things could be discussed dispassionately. Try to imagine a forum on forensic investigation. Now imagine that every other day, somebody posts a link to a paper regarding the JonBenet Ramsey case. And every time this comes up, everybody comes out of the woodwork to argue about the case. You have the first group that insists that the police did everything correctly, and the other group insists that it was a massive cover-up. And every single time, each camp accuses the other of "pissing on the grave of JonBenet", "censoring valid scientific evidence", and without fail everybody is calling everybody else an idiot, a retard, a criminal-defender, a baby-eater, and a Nancy Grace fan. After a while you could see that the moderators might have enough and will throw up their hands and say, "Sorry guys, you ruined this topic. No more posts allowed because nobody can act like an adult."

And that's where we are. And I'm sorry, because there isn't any reason we shouldn't be able to discuss these things, but don't place the blame on the us because the bulk of the readers can't behave.

TL;DR: It's a moderation nightmare, and there are other places to discuss these things.

EDIT: To all of you who keep reporting this comment, why don't you send me a PM instead?

32

u/jarxlots Sep 09 '16

We blacklisted the topic because in every single post, without exception, the threads degenerate into ad hominem attacks from both sides of the argument, whilst aspects pertinent to engineering are lost by the wayside.

So, instead of allowing failure to bring about its natural conclusion, you restrict the ability of subscribers to discuss a certain topic, because it makes the mod team have to work harder.

Apathy wins! Fatality!

But it's your sub. I have no problem with your decision, I just see the situation differently.

15

u/raoulduke25 Structural P.E. Sep 09 '16

because it makes the mod team have to work harder

If it were just a matter of a little extra effort, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it's a never-ending stream of drama, comment reports, not to mention all the other subreddits where we get posted (/r/SubredditDrama, /r/conspiracy, /r/911truth, &c.) And then all the readers from those subreddits brigade us, send us more modmail, report every other comment, and then when we're done moderating the threads, half the comments are removed for violating the rules. At this point, the thread gets linked again somewhere with the title, "/r/engineering moderators are censoring comments on 9/11 thread."

More modmail comes in, more reports, more brigading. Rinse, lather, repeat. I already put a tonne of effort into trying to moderate this forum fairly. But considering I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't, yeah I'd rather avoid the topic altogether.

I have no problem with your decision, I just see the situation differently.

Thank you for being civil about it.

11

u/jarxlots Sep 09 '16

If it were just a matter of a little extra effort, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it's a never-ending stream of drama, comment reports, not to mention all the other subreddits where we get posted (/r/SubredditDrama, /r/conspiracy, /r/911truth, &c.) And then all the readers from those subreddits brigade us, send us more modmail, report every other comment, and then when we're done moderating the threads, half the comments are removed for violating the rules. At this point, the thread gets linked again somewhere with the title, "/r/engineering moderators are censoring comments on 9/11 thread."

Yeah, that would seem to be a never-ending, vicious cycle.

Might I propose, an annual event, a compromise?

What if, only on the anniversary of said attacks, you guys made a single sticky post for on-topic discussion (that way it's yours to delete, if it gets out of hand) of that particular event. After 24 hours are up, lock it. And continue to ban those posts for the other 364.25 days out of the year.

Thank you for being civil about it.

No problem. I can understand that there are many factors that go into that decision. It's never just a matter of allowing free speech. It would be wonderful if things were that simple, but they just aren't.

12

u/raoulduke25 Structural P.E. Sep 09 '16

This is not a bad idea at all.

10

u/jarxlots Sep 09 '16

Thank you for considering it.

And, with it falling on a Sunday, this year, it probably won't see (I'm knocking on wood) as much traffic as it might normally see... hopefully meaning less modmail, reports, shitty comments, etc.

And then you can point to it, going forward, as evidence that you do support the discussion of the subject, but that it is "toxic" so it must be contained or restricted in some way.

"Why do you always censor this. Fascists!"

"We don't. See, we restrict it to a specific day, because otherwise it's [the mess you described.]"

9

u/raoulduke25 Structural P.E. Sep 09 '16

I have presented this idea to the other moderators. I am thinking starting it tonight at midnight and letting it run through the end of Sunday. We can put the dumpster fire out just before it begins to burn the nearby buildings down.

8

u/jarxlots Sep 09 '16

We can put the dumpster fire out just before it begins to burn the nearby buildings down.

LMAO! Well said.

I look forward to seeing what the mod team thinks about this. Thank you for being so responsive.

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u/[deleted] Sep 10 '16

I am thinking starting it tonight at midnight and letting it run through the end of Sunday. We can put the dumpster fire out just before it begins to burn the nearby buildings down.

or you could just restrict the chatter about it to just that single thread. this is not a simple subject, and some of us have lives to live outside of reddit so it would be nice if the single thread on the subject wasnt restricted, even more, to just a couple of days.

what harm can it do if left to thread itself organically? this could potentially be a very good conversation.

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u/NIST_Report Sep 09 '16

What if, only on the anniversary of said attacks, you guys made a single sticky post for on-topic discussion (that way it's yours to delete, if it gets out of hand) of that particular event. After 24 hours are up, lock it. And continue to ban those posts for the other 364.25 days out of the year.

/u/raoulduke25?

10

u/NIST_Report Sep 09 '16

The US has been in war for the last 15 years because of these 3 structural failures. This discussion should be priority until it is resolved. It is disturbing that you and the other powers here blacklist a topic which is currently responsible for the death of thousands of people, including soldiers still deployed in the middle east.

How do you sleep at night?

17

u/raoulduke25 Structural P.E. Sep 09 '16

The US has been in war for the last 15 years because of these 3 structural failures. This discussion should be priority until it is resolved.

I know. It's a big topic. But US foreign policy isn't a topic for /r/engineering. World starvation is another important topic that people should be discussing, but like US foreign policy, it has nothing to do with the purpose of this forum. /r/politics, /r/towerchallenge, and /r/conspiracy frequently discuss these issues.

It is disturbing that you and the other powers here blacklist a topic which is currently responsible for the death of thousands of people, including soldiers still deployed in the middle east.

I get the feeling you didn't read any of my comment above. I have explained in very specific terms the problem with this topic, and yet all you have done is divert the issue and then proceed to downvote all my comments whilst simultaneously accusing me of censorship. Seriously, go back and read my first response to you.

How do you sleep at night?

I don't lose any sleep over trying to moderate a subreddit fairly. I am not suppressing any free exchange of information and I am not disseminating information that I believe to be false in order to squelch investigation of the events of 9/11. You keep wanting to paint this as a political battle that I'm fighting in order to support US foreign policy, but that's simply not true. The more you make this about politics, the more you show why the topic has no place here.

2

u/LEMO2000 Oct 19 '21

Would it be possible to mandate a special flair gets put on any posts about these topics which prevents any moderation requests from being put through? Or for the mods to ignore any reports coming through from posts with that flair? Idk if this is a better solution or if it’s even possible but if the issue is the extra work for mods, this is a potential fix.

2

u/secreit Feb 27 '17

nice censorship, and editing your post 5 months later? fraud sub

6

u/raoulduke25 Structural P.E. Feb 27 '17

nice censorship

Were you not around when we hosted the 9/11 thread?

editing your post 5 months later? fraud sub

Did you read the edit? People are reporting this comment for stupid reasons.

1

u/rodental Feb 28 '17

So, the finite state element model of building 7 by the University of Alaska Fairbanks is coming out soon, gonna censor that too?

8

u/raoulduke25 Structural P.E. Mar 01 '17

Man, I would love to host a discussion on that. I am truly very interested in the results of that analysis. But considering how you guys incessantly brigade this sub, report posts needlessly, and heckle the moderators here, I'm a little disinclined to do that. I reached out to you and met you half-way and allowed a megathread to discuss 9/11 when the moderators at /r/physics would not. I took endless heat from everybody in this sub who supported the official story of 9/11 and took just as much heat from those who opposed the official story in snarky comments like this. I tried to keep things on a legitimate discussion of engineering topics, and I got pilloried from both sides.

To answer your question, no, you won't be allowed to post it here, because nobody really wants open discussion. I can't even believe you guys are still brigading this thread nearly a half a year later, accusing us of fraud and censorship after we gave you everything you wanted and yet you still turn around and post smartarse comments like this.

2

u/rodental Mar 01 '17

This is the first time I've ever even commented in this sub. But when I heard that a sub about engineering was censoring scientific data for political reasons I thought to myself "well, some people have absolutely no professional integrity". So, I thought I would check. Checks out. You're a disgrace to the profession.

8

u/raoulduke25 Structural P.E. Mar 01 '17

This is the first time I've ever even commented in this sub.

So you're not aware of how many times we hosted 9/11 material? Nice of you to admit your ignorance.

You're a disgrace to the profession.

Are you even paying attention? Have you read this thread at all? Did you read the links I gave you? Apparently not.

1

u/rodental Mar 01 '17

All of your excuses boil down to "I have a political agenda to cover up scientific evidence". You're a disgrace to the profession who is hiding behind anonymity.

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u/raoulduke25 Structural P.E. Mar 01 '17

Except that I went out of my way to allow the free exchange of ideas regarding 9/11 last September. I linked that thread for you. Are you paying attention at all?

1

u/rodental Mar 01 '17

Out of your way? Literally all you have to do is not censor the thread, which apparently is beyond your capabilities.

I repeat: you believe that your personal opinion gives you the right to censor scientific data. You are an absolute and utter disgrace to the engineering profession, and it terrifies me that you might be designing systems that people rely on.

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